do sulfates have more effects on different porosity?

[emmadilemma]

This is just something I was thinking about, and cant seem to find much information on google. I just learned about porosity the other day so this might be a dumb question, just a thought of whether sulfates have more effect on certain porosity. Like because high porosity soaks up alot of whats put on it and low porosity almost nothing can penetrate it, I was just wondering whether sulfates effect one more than the other. What do you think?:confused:

[lapushka]

That's a good question, actually! :)

I have low to medium porosity and I fare well with sulfates. That's all I can tell you. I wouldn't know how sulfates affect other porosity levels.

[velvet orchid]

Hmm yes that is a good one, I have incredibly low porosity hair and my hair loves sulphates, my friend however has high porosity hair and sulphates equal nothing but frizz for her. I have no idea if this a coincidence or not but it's interesting, though I'd definitely like to know the opinion of some of our more science-y members. :confused:

[meteor]

Emmadilemma, yes, porous hair absorbs more stuff, including chemicals in the water.
I think the important thing to remember is that in cases when low/normal porosity hair becomes porous (due to mechanical damage, chemical treatments, UV damage, heat damage, etc...), it has more chipped cuticles and is overall more fragile, and the things that were less of an issue before (say, frequent cleansing with harsher surfactants) are now more problematic, simply because damage is cumulative, and the more damage is already there, the less one can get away with.
I find that many products targeted for damaged hair have milder cleansing formulas, possibly for that reason.

It's worth mentioning that when tests were done on how oils can reduce damage from shampooing, you would see significantly more damage (measured by protein loss and water retention index) from washing porous hair (bleached, boiled, UV-treated) and always less damage post-wash from washing undamaged hair (with or without the oils to protect it).
There are lots of interesting graphs here for comparing how damaged vs. virgin hair responds to shampooing in terms of damage:
Effect of mineral oil, sunflower oil, and coconut oil on prevention of hair damage: http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2003/cc054n02/p00175-p00192.pdf

Here are a few good articles that I think can be pretty helpful in terms of porosity and the differences between what porous and non-porous hair absorbs:
http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2011/09/porosity-in-hair.html
http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2014/03/managing-elasticity-and-porosity-in-hair.html
http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2012/10/deep-conditioning-what-ingredients-in.html



Hmm yes that is a good one, I have incredibly low porosity hair and my hair loves sulphates, my friend however has high porosity hair and sulphates equal nothing but frizz for her.

^ This makes sense to me :agree: , since porous hair tends to need gentler products with lower pH.
For example, hair that has been oxidized by bleach, permanent dye, UV rays, etc has lower isoionic point, because oxidation changes the chemical composition of the surface of the hair. Hair like that can be washed with products with lower pH - and those products sometimes contain a different mix of sulfates or other surfactants. This is one of the reason why products for chemically treated hair often have a lower-than-neutral pH. High pH leads to more interfiber friction and frizz, especially if the hair is already damaged. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4158629/; http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2013/07/ph-and-your-hair-little-redox-to-make.html).

I experienced this too: my hair used to like gentler cleansers when it was more porous (highlighted) and it seemed like it was permanently dry, and it rarely (if ever) needed harsh cleansing, but it responded extremely well to heavier conditioning and oiling.

[school of fish]

Just chiming in to say that my super-low-porosity hair loves sulphate shampoos. I have Teflon hair that's so slippery updos won't hold, and it's very build up prone. It doesn't like oils, serums, leave-ins, or even my own natural sebum - all these things just seem to sit on top of the strands and make them feel sticky and look awful. My hair is happiest on shampoo day after a good sulphate cleansing, and not just at the roots but down the length right to the ends. It needs to be well cleared of any residue, or it just isn't happy. I do make sure to keep it well conditioned as well - every day - but no leave-in conditioner, just rinse-out.

It bears noting that I'm a long-term henna user, so that may well be one of the reasons my hair has such low porosity (although I'm pretty sure that's its natural inclination as well).

It would be interesting to see if there is indeed a porosity pattern amongst sulphate shampoo users. The low-porosity/sulphate connection seems to hold true for me at least - sulphates are a fixture of my routine :)

[Arctic]

I'm not quite sure what my porosity is, when I read the descriptions it seems I have charateristics of them all. But I have an inner feeling that before my hair type change I was low porosity (hair dressers always called my hair "glassy". It doesn't translate well to English but it's commonly used term for low porosity hair in Finnish). I think because of developing waves and lot of wiry hairs since the hair type chanhe, my hair has morphed a bit toward more normal porosity as an avarage.

Anyway, I get buildup super easily, and my hair loves sulphates and being very clean. I can well see there would be a connection, so this is not a silly question at all. I wish I would know my porosity, but I'm not really willing to pay for hair analysis either.

[bunneh.]

I wish I would know my porosity, but I'm not really willing to pay for hair analysis either.

You can test this at home. Fill a bowl with water and put a single hair strand in it and let it sit for 5 minutes. If the hair floats on top it's low porosity, if it's floating in the middle it's medium porosity and if it sinks to the bottom it's high porosity.

[Arctic]

You can test this at home. Fill a bowl with water and put a single hair strand in it and let it sit for 5 minutes. If the hair floats on top it's low porosity, if it's floating in the middle it's medium porosity and if it sinks to the bottom it's high porosity.
I know that method, but I have read it's not trustworthy. For what it's worth I did try it years ago, and my hairs floated but partially sinked eventually (I think I left them for several hours, though):D

ETA I mean partially sinked, like my hair is S-wavy, for example, and while the whole hair floated, some curves of the wave dipped under the surface.

[meteor]

^ Arctic, I agree completely. I think float test is problematic on quite a few levels: - surface tension of water, - specific gravity, - coating on hair (there is usually some water-repelling oil on hair).

The scientific measurement of hair porosity is gas sorption (here is an excellent study on this, as applied to bleach and UV damage (showing growing porosity with more exposure): True porosity measurement of hair: a new way to study hair damage mechanisms - http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2008/cc059n04/p00303-p00315.pdf)

At home, I would check porosity by seeing how hair absorbs conditioners, oils, water, how it responds to cold treatments vs. steaming, over-oiling, etc... and a "feel" test sliding fingers up and down the hair strands and feeling for smoothness, glassiness vs. bumps, though of course, texture would interfere with this.

Here are a couple quick articles on this: http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2012/06/hair-porosity-how-to-measure-sort-of.html, http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2013/01/junk-science-hair-porosity-tests-float.html

[vpatt]

I tried the dish of water and my hair was still floating the next day. I don't really feel a difference whether sliding my fingers up or down an individual hair....slippery in both directions. When I use certain conditioners I get the heavy separated look. So I think that means too much moisture does not make my hair happy. But I'm not sure if that is normal for non porous hair. Is that because the product is sitting on top of hair instead of being absorbed?

[lapushka]

I tried the dish of water and my hair was still floating the next day. I don't really feel a difference whether sliding my fingers up or down an individual hair....slippery in both directions. When I use certain conditioners I get the heavy separated look. So I think that means too much moisture does not make my hair happy. But I'm not sure if that is normal for non porous hair. Is that because the product is sitting on top of hair instead of being absorbed?

Product tends to sit on top of low porosity - true.

[vpatt]

Product tends to sit on top of low porosity - true.

Ahh, thank you.

[meteor]

I tried the dish of water and my hair was still floating the next day. I don't really feel a difference whether sliding my fingers up or down an individual hair....slippery in both directions. When I use certain conditioners I get the heavy separated look. So I think that means too much moisture does not make my hair happy. But I'm not sure if that is normal for non porous hair. Is that because the product is sitting on top of hair instead of being absorbed?

:agree: Oh yes, sounds quite a bit like low-porosity/normal-porosity hair, vpatt. :D

I think, if one hasn't done much damaging stuff to hair (heat-styling, bleach, permanent dyes, perms/relaxers, lots of UV damage, etc...), it's likely (though it's a big generalization) to be close to low/normal-porosity with porosity at the roots lower than porosity at the ends (if the hair is long and the ends are weathered), since new hair growing at the roots should have practically intact cuticle (virgin hair).

[Arctic]

Thanks Meteor for all the information, like always! I have been actually scouring the internet about porosity related info probably 6 or so years, haha, I think I have read it all (hyperbole of course). I still can't decide what porosity mine is, because it doesn't fit into only one category and all the descriptions seem to have something that fits and something that doesn't. There has been times when I have been sure my hair is high porosity, and then times when I am sure it's low like it used to be, and I have found somewhat peace of mind after I started to think of it as normal porosity.

Whether it's this or that is really not even that relevant as I've found what works and what doesn't - it's been more of an insatiable curiosity (and I find the subject interesting in general too, something I like to learn more about). Yet after all the hemming and hawing, I wouldn't pay for analysis. Maybe I could pay for local analysis if it would be under 15 or so Euros, but there aren't much available here, and since I have been to hair dressers in a very long time I can't even ask them.

I have sometimes considered starting a thread to ask people "troubleshoot" my hair. I'd type down all the characteristics that my hair has divided into suitable porosity level categories. Linking to suitable articles, providing photos, maybe even videos. I would be interested to hear what people would assess my hair to be and would there be a consensus. Maybe some day. Meanwhile every 4-6 months I search the interwebs whether there's been something new on the subject ha ha. I think I am hopeless. I'f I'd have analysis done, I think I would, in the end, experience the knowledge like an end to something fun and interesting. I've really enjoyed reading about this stuff. He he yeah I'm weird like that! :face:


Vpatt sounds like classic low-porosity hair.

[lapushka]

There has been times when I have been sure my hair is high porosity, and then times when I am sure it's low like it used to be, and I have found somewhat peace of mind after I started to think of it as normal porosity.

I think it would be safe to assume for *anybody* that your hair is normal porosity, until your hair tells you differently in how it behaves. I think regular virgin hair has the most chance of being normal porosity, but there are exceptions. Believe me, you don't know what high porosity is unless your hair has been severely bleach damaged. Been there, done that. That is how I know mine is normal porosity. I used to think it even could be low, but... I don't see how because that would mean perms or color would be hard, and it never was an issue with me.

[Arctic]

Very good points, Lapushka. It most likely is a good old normal now. Not much written about normal porosity hair online, other than in the context of performing chemical treatments (colour, perm, relaxing). Most articles that go into minutiae details are aimed for the opposite ends of the porosity continuum.

The time when I thought my hair was possibly high porosity was when I was really struggling to accept my changed hairtype, and thought my coarser and wiry hairs were damaged or malformed. Thank goodness I am now seeing my hair in different light.

I had my hair bleached few times over 10 years ago. It was short so no damage was visible (my eye also wasn't as trained to little hair details like it is now) but it behaved so differently. For the first time in my life I was able to go days between washing without my hair being even slightest bit oily. It felt miraculous at the time, but in retrospect it was probably just the increased porosity whick allowed the hairs to absorb more oils.

[mira-chan]

I have low porosity hair. Unfortunately I'm sensitive to sulfates. It makes holes in skin and if my hair is washed them them twice a week or more more often then the ends start breaking off. I may be an outlier though.

[vpatt]

Very good points, Lapushka. It most likely is a good old normal now. Not much written about normal porosity hair online, other than in the context of performing chemical treatments (colour, perm, relaxing). Most articles that go into minutiae details are aimed for the opposite ends of the porosity continuum.

The time when I thought my hair was possibly high porosity was when I was really struggling to accept my changed hairtype, and thought my coarser and wiry hairs were damaged or malformed. Thank goodness I am now seeing my hair in different light.

I had my hair bleached few times over 10 years ago. It was short so no damage was visible (my eye also wasn't as trained to little hair details like it is now) but it behaved so differently. For the first time in my life I was able to go days between washing without my hair being even slightest bit oily. It felt miraculous at the time, but in retrospect it was probably just the increased porosity whick allowed the hairs to absorb more oils.

My hair was the same when bleached, I could go much longer between washes.

My post went thru, yay!!