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LeMimi13
February 14th, 2016, 06:34 AM
Hi!
I'm not sure about how fine or coarse my hair is, but I'd love it to be coarser. I find it the prettiest hair type, to be honest, and it's stronger.
Is there a way to make my hair coarser? I don't want that "dry feeling, just to increase the diameter. (Eg: my friend who got a keratin treatment now seems to have coarser hair)

Arctic
February 14th, 2016, 06:48 AM
Apparently many dandruff shampoos, or more specifically the active ingredients do have some strand thickening effects. Especially ketoconazole and piroctone olamine are mentioned. There has been at least one scientific study about this effect too, you can find it by googling, if you want to read the abstract.

People on the hair loss forums routinely use these type of shampoos partially for this effect (although the active ingredients might also help with the hair loss itself).

On the flip side of the coin, these shampoos can be pretty drying and you would need to wash your whole lenght with them regularly.

Henna and cassia and maybe other herbal packs or perhaps even rinses might help.

These are all temporary solutions, ofcourse.

LeMimi13
February 14th, 2016, 06:54 AM
I thought henna was just a way of dying hair..? What is it really then?

TR
February 14th, 2016, 07:05 AM
Henna does dye the hair but its mechanism is different than the more commonly used chemical dyes. I have fine hair that I treated with henna for about two years. It did get a bit thicker but it remained silky and shiny and very slippery, certainly nothing that could be described as coarse. I have almost no natural wave (my hair is usually 1b) but with henna it got even straighter (sometimes acting like 1a), and from what I've read on LHC it is fairly common for henna to loosen the natural wave/curl pattern.

Arctic
February 14th, 2016, 07:07 AM
I'm not a henna expert, but henna covers the outside of each hair strand, and many people notice that it makes their individual hairs and hair as a whole, feel thicker and stronger.

I have to say that I personally did not experience this: I thought I did when I still hennaed, but when I grew my hennaed hair out I noticed it hadn't been henna making my strands thicker, but I had had an actual hair type change during the time I had hennaed (my hair type changed from fine to coarser - due to hormones. It had nothing to do with henna, it was just a coinsidence.)

Henna is a dye first and foremost, and it gives a pretty permanent, very orange-y colour, so never henna if you are not prepared for the permanent colour. But cassia is colourless, it would also have the strand coating effect.

lapushka
February 14th, 2016, 07:45 AM
Apparently many dandruff shampoos, or more specifically the active ingredients do have some strand thickening effects. Especially ketoconazole and piroctone olamine are mentioned. There has been at least one scientific study about this effect too, you can find it by googling, if you want to read the abstract.

People on the hair loss forums routinely use these type of shampoos partially for this effect (although the active ingredients might also help with the hair loss itself)

I wouldn't use them if you don't need them for specific scalp conditions. Just my 2cts. :flower:

I have seborrheic dermatitis and use Nizoral and sometimes a dandruff shampoo (for tiny scales that aren't full-blown SD yet). I have *never* ever in the 43 years I have used these things seen a thickening effect on my hair. It is still as F as F can be. That is just my experience, but it's quite a number of years, so...

So I call BS! :bs:
Sorry.

The only thickening of my F strands I have experienced is from using henna. To a medium, normal thickness. The downside? Your hair turns orange. I didn't experience the same effect from cassia - at all, did nothing in that regard.

I'm sorry OP but you can't magically transform F hair into C hair. Just can't be done.

Arctic
February 14th, 2016, 07:55 AM
Well, like I said, there is even a study made of their thickening effect, you can google it and read it (not sure how trustworthy the study is, I can't remember the details anymore). I personally use piroctone olamine shampoo almost exclusively, not because of the possible effect, but because my scalp likes it. I am not saying it's impossible that the shampoo has had some effects on my hair, but since I can't be sure I am not claiming in one direction or another. But if you read any hair loss forums, you will see many people noticing some thickening effects of the strands. They use those shampoos mostly for the medicative effects, because at least ketoconazole is anti-androgen, apparently, but I am sure the thickening is a nice side effect.

Every head of hair is different, I think you should know that with 10 years of LHC in your pocket. For me, for example, henna did not thicken my hairs, like I already said, but I don't go out there calling other people's posts BS.

ETA: I admit that using strong medicated shampoos for cosmetic reasons isn't the smartest move. But for example the one I use for my sensitive scalp is very mild, sold in super market and not even marketed to problem scalps, other than it says it's "calming". I see piroctone olamine in increasing number of every day shampoos, so I assume it is pretty safe to use as a normal shampoo too, when it's not pharmacy strength.

bunneh.
February 14th, 2016, 08:26 AM
I would guess vitamins could help a bit perhaps, I've noticed my nail health improving and them getting stronger after taking vitamins, so I'm guessing it could have an impact on hair as well, but if you eat healthy and drink enough water then you should be fine. Other than that it's all in genetics and it's just how your hair is. Learn how to treat it and protect it and it will be able to grow to long lengths and look beautiful and healthy, just as other hair types.

LeMimi13
February 14th, 2016, 09:27 AM
I would guess vitamins could help a bit perhaps, I've noticed my nail health improving and them getting stronger after taking vitamins, so I'm guessing it could have an impact on hair as well, but if you eat healthy and drink enough water then you should be fine. Other than that it's all in genetics and it's just how your hair is. Learn how to treat it and protect it and it will be able to grow to long lengths and look beautiful and healthy, just as other hair types.
My hair is very thick too, so the fineness isn't a problem because of that, but because of how much it breaks- i have lots of it tho- and because it always looks so messy

lapushka
February 14th, 2016, 10:11 AM
It just seems *very* odd to me that those shampoos would have thickening effects (making follicles produce thicker strands). Sounds a little iffy to me, esp. since I haven't seen that in the 43 years I have used these shampoos on and off for SD. I think I'd have noticed something... at least. And it is supposed to work on people the same if there's been a study, no? These are "medicated" shampoos, so...

Arctic
February 14th, 2016, 10:15 AM
Oh I don't think they have effect on follicular level, I think they just temporary beef up the already grown strands on some people's hair.

lapushka
February 14th, 2016, 10:26 AM
Oh I don't think they have effect on follicular level, I think they just temporary beef up the already grown strands on some people's hair.

Yeah, but I don't see how? I mean as soon as the hair leaves the follicle its width and diameter is pretty much set; and these shampoos don't "coat" the hair either. So my question is... how? See why I said BS?

Arctic
February 14th, 2016, 10:37 AM
Well I'm not going to argue with you, I have no agenda to promote either side so I won't put more energy into this. I just shared what I have read, in the context of the question asked. Maybe if you read the study you will find out more, if you are interested - it's one of the first studies that come up when goodling about piroctone olamine and ketoconazole and their effects on hair shaft. I have glanced it through several years ago myself. I don't find it hard to believe that some ingredients beef up hair shafts, even water does so.

lapushka
February 14th, 2016, 10:49 AM
If I remember correctly, I started a thread here about the "densify" line (was it by L'oreal?) - I don't remember. But I had questions on whether those coated the hair strands any and made them denser. No replies. So probably not very interesting. Those things probably contain special formula's to make hair strands denser, but those medicated shampoos - I haven't seen a densifying effect from it in all the years I've used it. :shrug: YMMV, but to me it's still iffy.

Arctic
February 14th, 2016, 10:54 AM
He he, now my interest has been sparked to re-read that study, but I simply don't have time right now (or in the near future) I have too much school and other work and too much reading as is (seemingly endless reading list, sign). Maybe LeMimi will read it and tell us all the juicy details :D

chen bao jun
February 14th, 2016, 10:55 AM
People may confuse 'coarse' with 'rough'. I've heard people do this.
Dandraff shampoo indeed makes your hair rougher. Which is not a good thing. rougher, which goes with dryer, makes it more prone to break.
the only thng I have ever heard of that actually makes your strands thicker is, as people have said, henna, because it coats the strands, but as stated, there is the color change to deal with, not everybody wants to be a redhead (and I personally have disliked henna since being in France in the 1970's because everybody had violet hair there from henna, I know it doesn't necessarily do that but have never got over the prejudice).

On another note, your strand diameter CAN change, it is well known, because of age, a lot of people complain their grey hairs are coarse when their hair wasn't coarse before. then when you get very old, your hair tends to be super fine, not just sparse, but fine. I don't think the process is that well understood--possible something to do with hormones? but this might make it possible (I don't think it is, now) to one day make hair type changes possible with some sort of medication that played with hormones or whatever it is, and changed the follicle, changing the hair? speculating, of course.

Arctic
February 14th, 2016, 11:11 AM
Here's the abstract in question. They are scientists, they don't mix rougher feeling with wider hair shafts. The hair loss forum members might, but they are probably as obsessed with hair as we are here, so I would give them the benefit of a doubt that most of them know the difference too. (And as it is, not all our own members know the difference. Fine is continuously mixed with thin, coarse is continously mixed with feeling rough, like Chen noted).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18498517 (It's very short text.)

I am in humanist sciences myself and don't have the knowledge needed to evaluate whether this is a valid research or not.

lapushka
February 14th, 2016, 11:18 AM
People may confuse 'coarse' with 'rough'. I've heard people do this.
Dandraff shampoo indeed makes your hair rougher. Which is not a good thing. rougher, which goes with dryer, makes it more prone to break.
the only thng I have ever heard of that actually makes your strands thicker is, as people have said, henna, because it coats the strands, but as stated, there is the color change to deal with, not everybody wants to be a redhead (and I personally have disliked henna since being in France in the 1970's because everybody had violet hair there from henna, I know it doesn't necessarily do that but have never got over the prejudice).

On another note, your strand diameter CAN change, it is well known, because of age, a lot of people complain their grey hairs are coarse when their hair wasn't coarse before. then when you get very old, your hair tends to be super fine, not just sparse, but fine. I don't think the process is that well understood--possible something to do with hormones? but this might make it possible (I don't think it is, now) to one day make hair type changes possible with some sort of medication that played with hormones or whatever it is, and changed the follicle, changing the hair? speculating, of course.

That's quite possible, that there is confusion between rougher & coarser/thicker!

My white hair is even finer than my F hair now is, so... I don't know about other fineys out there, but in my case, my hair is going to get thinner not thicker. Not that I mind that much. It's going to take years for my hair to be totally white/gray, and I'm 43 already, about to turn 44 this year, so...


Here's the abstract in question. They are scientists, they don't mix rougher feeling with wider hair shafts. The hair loss forum members might, but they are probably as obsessed with hair as we are here, so I would give them the benefit of a doubt that most of them know the difference too. (And as it is, not all our own members know the difference. Fine is continuously mixed with thin, coarse is continously mixed with feeling rough, like Chen noted).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18498517 (It's very short text.)

I am in humanist sciences myself and don't have the knowledge needed to evaluate whether this is a valid research or not.

Thanks for providing the link! :D

chen bao jun
February 14th, 2016, 11:28 AM
Oh, yes, Lapushka, that will be years.

I'm almost 60 and just getting a noticeable streak of grey in the middle now and I had grey hairs at your age.

somewhat genetic, my aunt died in her mid-nineties a couple of weeks ago and still only had a couple of grey 'wings' at the side--most of her hair (which, there was plenty of it) was still black, naturally, but greying is a slow process in general,unless you are Marie Antoinette and just had your kids, taken away, your husband killed and your best friend's head paraded by your window. then, apparently, you can go grey overnight. But I saw my first grey in my late 20's and its still just--not very much.

My grey hair seems the same exact amount of coarse, but --not curly. None of my grey hairs have small spiral curls but only large, gentle waves--a definite reason to wish to not grey quickly. I love my curls.

Arctic
February 14th, 2016, 11:31 AM
My hairs have gotten much thicker with age, the normal coloured ones, I mean. My whites seem to come in all coarsenes-levels, just like my coloured hairs these days are. It will be interesting to see how my hair develops, I have so few whites It's difficult to say much about them yet.

Arctic
February 14th, 2016, 11:33 AM
My hairs have gotten much thicker with age, the normal coloured ones, I mean. My whites seem to come in all coarsenes-levels, just like my coloured hairs these days are. It will be interesting to see how my hair develops, I have so few whites It's difficult to say much about them yet.

Lapushka no problems, I should have done so earlier on, it only took few seconds to find, so it wasn't off from my studying time (or forum time, which I use as breaks, he he).

Beborani
February 14th, 2016, 12:26 PM
I am going to post this link here too as it is more recent and in a slightly more rigorous field of study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3964684/

TR
February 14th, 2016, 01:02 PM
I am going to post this link here too as it is more recent and in a slightly more rigorous field of study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3964684/

Interesting study. Though it mentions the diameter of the hair follicle, the diameter of the hair itself was not studied. So this particular study isn't proof that ketoconazole or minoxidil actually increase the thickness of the individual hairs, just that the follicle diameter increases.

maborosi
February 14th, 2016, 01:08 PM
Henna did coarsen up my hair, but it is a permanent color change that you have to be willing to commit to.

Cassia and sedr also strengthen fine hair.

Additionally, many people don't have as fine of hair when they stop doing damaging things, for example, chemical or heat processing, to the hair. That happened to me when I first came to LHC.

But beyond that, there isn't a lot out there that can actually thicken individual strands of hair, as far as I'm aware of.

ETA- Mine has also become coarser as I get older. When I was a little kid, I was F/i and now I'm F/M ii+.

TR
February 14th, 2016, 01:38 PM
It just seems *very* odd to me that those shampoos would have thickening effects (making follicles produce thicker strands). Sounds a little iffy to me, esp. since I haven't seen that in the 43 years I have used these shampoos on and off for SD. I think I'd have noticed something... at least. And it is supposed to work on people the same if there's been a study, no? These are "medicated" shampoos, so...

Just because a study suggests a relationship, that doesn't mean every single person will experience the same effect. Not every person who smokes will get lung cancer or emphysema, but hundreds of studies indicate that there is a strong correlation between smoking and those diseases. Likewise, these shampoos may not have any effect on the thickness of your hair personally but that doesn't invalidate the study Arctic linked.

TR
February 14th, 2016, 01:47 PM
Here's the abstract in question. They are scientists, they don't mix rougher feeling with wider hair shafts. The hair loss forum members might, but they are probably as obsessed with hair as we are here, so I would give them the benefit of a doubt that most of them know the difference too. (And as it is, not all our own members know the difference. Fine is continuously mixed with thin, coarse is continously mixed with feeling rough, like Chen noted).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18498517 (It's very short text.)

I am in humanist sciences myself and don't have the knowledge needed to evaluate whether this is a valid research or not.

Oh man, I was intrigued by the abstract that your link provided, but when I looked for the whole article it wasn't freely available. I'm not intrigued enough to pay $38 for the PDF version! The abstract specifically mentions increased hair shaft diameter... I might spend a few minutes trying to find the full article elsewhere.

Arctic
February 14th, 2016, 02:11 PM
I'm sorry I didn't realize or remember it wasn't open access. I do have an access, but I don't know how proper it is to share an article. I personally don't have time to read.

TR
February 14th, 2016, 02:27 PM
I'm sorry I didn't realize or remember it wasn't open access. I do have an access, but I don't know how proper it is to share an article. I personally don't have time to read.

Oh no, I wasn't suggesting you should share the article from this source, I agree it would be inappropriate. I may try to find it through other databases to which I do have free access.

lapushka
February 14th, 2016, 03:13 PM
And here I was thinking it was all about the hair follicle growing a thicker hair. Hmm. :hmm: I still think that's impossible. I mean... It would be a miracle product, wouldn't it? It would sell like no other.

TR
February 14th, 2016, 03:39 PM
And here I was thinking it was all about the hair follicle growing a thicker hair. Hmm. :hmm: I still think that's impossible. I mean... It would be a miracle product, wouldn't it? It would sell like no other.

It may actually do that though; if the follicle diameter really does impact the hair shaft thickness, then the study showing increased follicle diameter could indicate that the hair does grow thicker from the widened follicle. Without having access to more than the abstract from Arctic's link I can't tell whether those researchers studied follicle diameter in their human subjects. In the study Beborani linked, the subjects were mice and the researchers didn't compare hair shaft thickness before and after treatment. The mouse study was pretty small though. But just from the abstract in Arctic's link you can read that the study participants used ketoconazole shampoo 2-3 times a week for six months. And there might have been statistically significant increase in hair shaft thickness but that doesn't mean everyone in the study had thicker hair, or that the increased thickness was visually noticeable for everyone who experienced it. It might have only been a very small percentage increase in thickness but still seen in enough subjects to be statistically significant.

This is a very long way of saying that I'd guess it's unlikely that someone could go overnight from F to C in strand thickness by using these products, though there does appear to be some evidence that hair shaft diameter can be increased in some people after consistent long term use.

lapushka
February 14th, 2016, 04:40 PM
This is a very long way of saying that I'd guess it's unlikely that someone could go overnight from F to C in strand thickness by using these products, though there does appear to be some evidence that hair shaft diameter can be increased in some people after consistent long term use.

I must then just be one of the flukes who didn't experience a thing. :shrug:

TR
February 14th, 2016, 04:49 PM
I must then just be one of the flukes who didn't experience a thing. :shrug:

Or if you did experience any thickening it could have been so small you couldn't tell. If your strands are normally 40 microns and the nizoral increased it to 41 microns you wouldn't notice any difference. Those researchers would have measured it using very precise and accurate instruments and concluded your strands were thicker but to you it wouldn't look any different.

Beborani
February 14th, 2016, 04:52 PM
Lapushka if you are using this for 43 years? Are you really? Then you don't have a baseline at all. You have a lot of hair and are growing long and strong--you cannot tell at this point if ketocanazole has a role in that or not no? When follicle size increases--usually it correlates to thicker hair strand and/or more number of hair per follicle--both are win win. For me with minoxidil both of those happened but my hair was wispy (unhealthy kind) and it returned to normal. I don't have coarse hair even now.

yahirwaO.o
February 14th, 2016, 04:57 PM
Well fine hair can turn rough with dye and bleaching. Colour deposits outside hair shaft whether it's natural dye or man made chemical dye. But coarse definition is quite different I think.

While I believe coarse thick hair is gorgeous, there is a great thing in having silky fine hair!

Here in Mexico, it's fairly used when someone is losing hair or wants to thicken it up using a pharmacy shampoo made of coal tar creosote. Its pretty stinky and kinda controversial because its a fairly strong chemical used for other stuff (I guess it must be diluted for those hair purposes). However my mom has tried out and it certainly worked for her. I wanted to give it a try but the smell was so strong I felt I was about to throw up, it's just easier for me to eat well and embrace whatever my hair wants to do!

lapushka
February 14th, 2016, 05:06 PM
Lapushka if you are using this for 43 years? Are you really? Then you don't have a baseline at all. You have a lot of hair and are growing long and strong--you cannot tell at this point if ketocanazole has a role in that or not no? When follicle size increases--usually it correlates to thicker hair strand and/or more number of hair per follicle--both are win win. For me with minoxidil both of those happened but my hair was wispy (unhealthy kind) and it returned to normal. I don't have coarse hair even now.

I don't use this all the time. I've had to maybe use it 6-10 times in all those years. Not much, is it?

chrissy-b
February 14th, 2016, 06:20 PM
I don't use this all the time. I've had to maybe use it 6-10 times in all those years. Not much, is it?

If you've only used it 6-10 times in 43 years then maybe you're not using it frequently enough to notice a difference. On the hair loss boards I see that men and women use it on an almost daily basis as their regular shampoo.

lapushka
February 15th, 2016, 06:10 AM
If you've only used it 6-10 times in 43 years then maybe you're not using it frequently enough to notice a difference. On the hair loss boards I see that men and women use it on an almost daily basis as their regular shampoo.

Wait. First I'm using it too much, then I'm not using it often enough... really? :lol:

julee
February 15th, 2016, 06:39 AM
I guess I would say that the best way to be sure of the healthiest, maximum thickness of hair strands, without damage, or changing colour, is to take care of yourself, eat healthy etc. Strand thickness might change with age/hormone changes but I think mostly its a case of what you have is what you have. Sometimes I think I'd like coarser hair but there's not much I can do so I learned to love my fine strands and care for them in a way that brings out the best of them :)

school of fish
February 15th, 2016, 07:14 AM
I feel there's a difference between the desire to thicken up one's hair if they've experienced great shedding/thinning and the desire to change the nature of what one was given naturally.

Not having ever experienced any sizeable hair loss as of yet, I haven't had to contend with question of how to gain back at least some of what I lost, but I 'm sure that if it ever happens to me I'll be looking for solutions.

I have, however, been the girl who wishes she had thicker, coarser hair that she was born with. I spent a lot of energy on that wishing, and as a result couldn't see that what I was born with is just as beautiful, and something to be proud of and feel good about.

When I look back at photos of my younger, less satisfied self, I'm amazed at how thick and glossy my hair actually looks. The strands are very fine in diameter and my thickness/density is right in the "average" ii/3" range, but it looks silky, sleek, delicate and yet luxurious. It just doesn't look the way I wished it did my mind's eye - that ultra dense, voluminous, indestructable variety I was craving.

Now that I'm older, I feel the energy I was spending on wishing was misplaced. I've come to the conclusion that there are things in life, big and small, that we can't change or control, but that we can view differently and appreciate. I can't control the nature of the hair that grows out of my head, any more than I can control the height I have grown to. But what I can do is care for my hair in such a way that it's the best example of its own type that it can be. And I can take pleasure in that.

Now that I accept what I have I work to its strengths. I play up the features it has naturally (shine, movement, straightness) and enhance what I can control (colour, length, condition). I'll never be able to compete with coarser, denser hairtypes on their terms, so I don't ;) I love my hair for what it is and enjoy it every day :)

And I also try not to take any of it for granted, because one never knows in life when something we have may be lost to us... If I ever have to lose this hair I'd rather remember having enjoyed it while I had it, rather than have spent the time I had it wishing it was something else :)

chen bao jun
February 15th, 2016, 08:06 AM
Schooloffish, that was a brilliant post.

TR
February 15th, 2016, 09:15 AM
Wait. First I'm using it too much, then I'm not using it often enough... really? :lol:

Well, yes. The study participants used the shampoos 2-3 times per week for six months. Have you done that? If not, then you don't know what would happen if you did.

lapushka
February 15th, 2016, 09:24 AM
Well, yes. The study participants used the shampoos 2-3 times per week for six months. Have you done that? If not, then you don't know what would happen if you did.

Oh well, you know... whatever. :lol:

chrissy-b
February 15th, 2016, 08:33 PM
Wait. First I'm using it too much, then I'm not using it often enough... really? :lol:

I never said you were using it too much. Don't know why you're directing that at me.

I do think that your assessment of the shampoo being BS is baseless, though, which is what I was actually getting at in my earlier comment. Not saying this method works, but I see you putting down ideas all the time because they don't work for you and frankly, you have such a negative attitude it's irritating. Especially when you stretch the truth to back up your claim (see below) only to admit later that you've only used the product a few times.


I have *never* ever in the 43 years I have used these things seen a thickening effect on my hair. It is still as F as F can be. That is just my experience, but it's quite a number of years, so...

So I call BS! :bs:
Sorry.

chen bao jun
February 16th, 2016, 08:10 PM
Lapushka didn't deserve a personal attack. She's not negative, she's experienced (check out her ten years on this forum post) and she is kind enough to share her experience with us. Every article can't be trusted. Personal experience counts for something. I thought she put it rather nicely when she warned those who cared to listen that dandruff shampoo can rough up your hair but it certainly isn't going to make fine strands thicker. It's uncalled for to say things like "you have such a negative attitude that it's irritating' and adds nothing to the discussion. she's just putting it out there, for those who care to listen, that patience is key to growing hair and that some things just aren't going to happen (your thin strands magically becoming thick). If you don't want to listen, don't, but don't insult her.