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Spillings
December 17th, 2015, 08:32 PM
I've heard that lemon juice is very harsh on hair and dissolves protein. Which of the following, in your opinion, is more damaging to hair?

1. Leaving diluted lemon juice in your hair for a few hours while exposed to UVA light (but not UVB).

or

2. 1 year of shampooing (and conditioning) daily, fairly rough towel drying, and regular UV exposure.

May seem an odd thing to ask but it's meaningful to me.

bunneh.
December 17th, 2015, 10:07 PM
I don't know how you would expose your hair to only uva rays but not uvb... I say lemon juice is more damaging because it can be compared to bleaching in a way. If you'd dilute lemon juice 50:50 with water i'd say it wouldn't be too bad if you wash and condition afterwards.

On the other hand all things have certain cons you have to consider and find solutions for it, i don't believe running away from something just because it has a couple of fixable cons is a good thing... But it all depends from person to person.

Spillings
December 18th, 2015, 12:22 AM
I don't know how you would expose your hair to only uva rays but not uvb.
Sitting by my window. Glass blocks most UVB, and it was a cloudy day anyway.


If you'd dilute lemon juice 50:50 with water i'd say it wouldn't be too bad if you wash and condition afterwards.
I did. Still worse than [2]?

Bergelmir
December 18th, 2015, 02:17 AM
Ah, i wouldnt worry about the type of light transmission to much, a fully transparent type of glass will still pass a very huge amount of light to the other side of the window, and this energy can be damaging on food for example, and is still able to bleach stuff such as hair, but of course the effect is lower compared to a direct exposition. For my oil i do use special type of black-violet glass and not a usual white glass in order to protect from light.

UV-B more damaging than other type of light? Generally it can easily lead to a wrong perception, yes higher frequency got higher potential but the damage is not done by only one single type of light, always have to take the entire spectrum into account when it comes to possible damage.

Yes, certain acids are able to "dissolve" minerals, to some extend even proteins but you hair is having a pretty powerful keratin protection and it is no easy task for acids dissolving proteins from you hair when protected by healthy keratin. As long as the acids are used gently and not to often, the hair should not become damaged. Sure, when using chemical stuff, this stuff is so incredible harsh, i would not even use a hydrogen peroxide on my skin, it will even bleach my skin when used for extended time, it's not the stuff i may want to apply on my hair. However, as with everything the quality and quantity is playing a critical role. I would not apply lemon juice directly, you should make some sort of dilution. Take into account, diluting water with oil only works using a emulsifier, but there is a few natural emulsifier (lecithin from egg-yolk, or honey for example). So, as with everything you may find to "harsh" when applied directly, always make some sort of dilution, it counts for absolutely anything. At first make some strong dilution, and if you feel it is to weak considering active agents, then you can weaken the dilution, this is the way how it basically works.

lapushka
December 18th, 2015, 05:36 AM
I've heard that lemon juice is very harsh on hair and dissolves protein. Which of the following, in your opinion, is more damaging to hair?

1. Leaving diluted lemon juice in your hair for a few hours while exposed to UVA light (but not UVB).

or

2. 1 year of shampooing (and conditioning) daily, fairly rough towel drying, and regular UV exposure.

May seem an odd thing to ask but it's meaningful to me.

I would not do 1/ and where 2/ is concerned, do not *roughly* dry your hair, please. It's not necessary; you can be gentle about it, it doesn't cost you a thing.

Nique1202
December 18th, 2015, 05:50 AM
I've heard that lemon juice is very harsh on hair and dissolves protein. Which of the following, in your opinion, is more damaging to hair?

1. Leaving diluted lemon juice in your hair for a few hours while exposed to UVA light (but not UVB).

or

2. 1 year of shampooing (and conditioning) daily, fairly rough towel drying, and regular UV exposure.

May seem an odd thing to ask but it's meaningful to me.

I mean, you have to shampoo anyway, and unless you're SUPER VIGILANT about covering your hair with a hat it's GETTING regular UV exposure, so comparing a bleaching treatment (which is what lemon juice does) to something that you'd be doing anyway... that's like saying "What's better for you: sitting down at a buffet on your birthday, or eating three home cooked meals every day for a year?" If you towel dry gently instead of roughly (just squeeze your hair in the middle of the towel, instead of tangling it up and causing more trouble for yourself in detangling) then there really IS no comparison because you're doing #2 anyway.

Even if you do the lemon treatment (which I personally wouldn't, if you want lighter hair just dye it the colour you want with box dyes that are designed to give you a pre-determined experience instead of getting unpredictable results with home treatments) you wouldn't stop shampooing for a year just because you did a bleaching treatment. You haven't asked the right question here. Maybe the better question would be "What would make you happier, lightening slowly with a home treatment or getting the colour you want instantly with box dyes?" Neither is necessarily better than the other, just because something is natural doesn't mean it's safer or more effective. It's all bleaching your hair out anyway.

Bergelmir
December 18th, 2015, 06:21 AM
Guess nobody said lemon juice is a innocent ingridient since high amount of acids are never innocent. However, even in some Khadi recipes some lemon or other acid-heavy fruits and herbs are used for a good reason. It's all a matter of how "how much", a 10-20 ml spoon of stuff containing acid (for example amla) watered down with a 500 ml carrier is nothing to be worried about and it can help fighting excess of minerals and increase luster. Don't forget, even the skin is containing a layer of acid and it's unavoidable for the hair having some contact with. Just have to be careful, always make some appropriate dilution. Acid is not always bad, it's comparable with essential oils, a few can be good but to much of them can be critical, even for the hairs because they are active agents and not some smooth carrier. Just be aware, there is always a carrier needed for any ingridient with high potential (containing acid or essential oil), in term of washing it usually means to craft a cataplasm containig several carriers.

Besides, in term of "soft" water, the amount of acids should be lowered, but those with "hard" water may have lot of minerals fighting the traces of acid left. Some appropriate amount of acids are not critical instantly but when left on the hairs for extented period and without enough of mineral-based water, it is always tricky and i would not apply to much acids. The hair is trying to fight acids using minerals, but it will mean that it will be vulnerable as long as no fresh minerals added, so simply be careful but there is no need for fear,

Nique1202
December 18th, 2015, 06:24 AM
Guess nobody said lemon juice is a innocent ingridient since high amount of acids are never innocent. However, even in some Khadi recipes some lemon or other acid-heavy fruits and herbs are used for a good reason. It's all a matter of how "how much", a 10-20 ml spoon of stuff containing acid (for example amla) watered down with a 500 ml carrier is nothing to be worried about and it can help fighting excess of minerals and increase luster. Don't forget, even the skin is containing a layer of acid and it's unavoidable for the hair having some contact with. Just have to be careful, always make some appropriate dilution. Acid is not always bad, it's comparable with essential oils, a few can be good but to much of them can be critical, even for the hairs because they are active agents and not some smooth carrier. Just be aware, there is always a carrier needed for any ingridient with high potential (containing acid or essential oil), in term of washing it usually means to craft a cataplasm containig several carriers.

Yes, but putting lemon juice on hair and exposing it to UV is almost certainly intended as a lightening treatment. Using a tiny amount in a carrier would be fine, but deliberately soaking the hair in the acid and then getting in a tanning bed is probably not just intended to combat mineral buildup or add shine. That's why we're talking about damage so much.

bunneh.
December 18th, 2015, 06:38 AM
I did. Still worse than [2]?

Depends on what is worse for you? Having potentially dry hair you can treat with lots of oil and conditioning or handling it roughly and causing it to break, thus making it shorter than it could be. I don't see a reason you'd have to handle it roughly unless you lack knowledge, like I did years ago. But as you learn certain things, as you get to know certain things and once you realize what you want, and what your hair can handle you shouldn't be abusing it anymore.
If you want to bleach your hair at home slowly with natural substances then I don't see a reason why you wouldn't do this. You can apply lots of oil afterwards or even before applying lemon juice to protect it from the damage. I still think chemical dyes and bleach are way worse than any natural substances, even though natural substances can be almost just as effective or better (and thus equally damaging or more).

As for the UV rays, they're harmful if you're exposed to them for looong periods of time (I don't get all the beauty gurus and what not say you HAVE to apply sunscreen every day even if you'll be outside for only 5 minutes... Everyone says how sun is harmful and makes you age faster, yet they put s***load of makeup and other cosmetic products on their face and body that makes them age more than if they'd be sitting outside on the sun for 3 hours straight). It really depends on how far you're willing to go to protect your hair and how resiliant it is... Same as with wearing hats to protect hair from the sun, I never heard of that before, I understand protecting your scalp because having a burned scalp is not a pleasant feeling, I've experienced it. But other than that what? Because sun bleaches hair? Saltwater made my hair worse than any exposure to sun lol...

You know your hair best, you know what it can and can't handle and you know what lengths you want to achieve and in what shape you want to achieve them. Now you have to think about what you want (dyeing hair, bleaching hair, whatever else) and how you're going to achieve this without it having much or any impact on your other goals such as length and health of your hair or if they do have an impact or downsides, how you're going to counter them.

Bergelmir
December 18th, 2015, 06:39 AM
Well sure, but i have to say, bleaching in general is never healthy. Just have to accept the fact that there is not a single healthy bleaching method but at least some methods are less damaging than others.

I mean, i would never eat "sun bleached" food, because it is damaged. But i'm not here trying to derail other peoples ideas and stuff they enjoy, instead trying to give some advise on how to minimize the drawbacks.

Lavendersugar
December 18th, 2015, 07:47 AM
I would not do 1/ and where 2/ is concerned, do not *roughly* dry your hair, please. It's not necessary; you can be gentle about it, it doesn't cost you a thing.


Ditto this!

I use lemon juice in my henna mix with no issue but my hair is not exposed to UV during usage. No issues but I'm also using coconut cream.
I shampoo every day. I use a cotton tshirt to towel dry. I just squeeze the hair gently.

I think either one could be pretty damaging if done daily. The lemon if done daily would be fair more damaging.

reilly0167
December 18th, 2015, 09:08 AM
My first newbie mistake and would never use again on my hair is lemon juice(used it as my primary liquid for mixing henna)..dried out my hair even more....I only use it to make lemonade or when I make my body scrub.

Bergelmir
December 18th, 2015, 09:53 AM
Lemon juice in my mind is a strong cleaning agent and even able to penetrate the hairs, to some extend it will be able to improve injection of nutrients but to much of it and when hair is already damaged can cause risk for even more damage. It's not a agent for repair, but to enhance healthy hair who are able to handle some acids and even get some benefit because of easier access to nutrients.

Liquid containing lot of acid should never be "primary". I use shikakai and reetha in my recipe as an active agent, and amla too which is able to fight my "hard" water and keeping my hair soft. This is still without carrier which needs to be added. Carrier could be flour, egg yolk, oil, fruits, honey and much more, i still am testing out and it will take countless years finding a favorite recipe.

Spillings
December 18th, 2015, 12:16 PM
I was being lazy in my original post. I should clarify some things.

[1] happened the other day.

[2] is how I used to treat my hair, last year. That hair is long gone. This year Iíve started fresh and taken a whole new approach: I now use a gentle, plant-based shampoo without any harsh detergents (such as SLS) 2-3 times a week rather than every day (but I do use conditioner every day); I pat dry, or sometimes blow-dry using the lowest heat with constant movement at armís length; and Iíve had minimal UV exposure since I usually wear a hat now. As a result, my new hair was much thicker and healthier looking than ever, but it was also much darker and I missed the lighter brown I had all my life from sun exposure. So I naively assumed something natural like lemon juice ought to be the safest bleaching method. After all, it was just one time and only for a few hours, as opposed to months and months of UV damage. I even added some leave-in conditioner to reduce the drying effect. Afterward I washed my hair and when it dried I immediately noticed the difference. Not only was it lighter but also thinner, almost straw-like by comparison, and more prone to frizz Ė much like my old hair. That isnít necessarily all bad, however, because even last year I had some pretty good hair days despite the damage. All I want to know is if itís possible that my hair is in worse shape than it was last year, because I honestly canít tell yet. If it it's just as bad, I can easily live with that, but the thought of it being worse or perhaps ruined is a depressing thought.

(I noted in [1] that I had not been exposed to UVB because according to an NCBI article (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19138021) UVB is more damaging than UVA, and dry, wet hair is particularly vulnerable.)

Latest edit. Please delete the others.

Anje
December 18th, 2015, 12:51 PM
Ability to edit kicks in at about 25 posts, I believe. :)


Ultimately, I'm not certain that lemon juice is the best way to lighten hair. I know that I've had trouble with it severely irritating my scalp, when used at close to full strength, and all citrus increases UV sensitivity. I say this because I wouldn't be surprised if you'd get better results without the side effects of lots of harsh acid on your hair if you used a peroxide product. Around here, Sun-In is the main brand of that, and you can activate it with a warm blowdryer as well as with the sun -- its effects are augmented by heat. There's considerable anecdotal evidence around here that if you saturate the hair with coconut oil for a few hours before using a peroxide treatment and then treat the oily hair, it still works well but with less damage than when it's done to non-oiled hair.

If you're of a more natural bent, a lot of folks around here like to lighten their hair with honey. It's still peroxide-based lightening, same thing IMO, but it's a bit slower.

chen bao jun
December 18th, 2015, 01:00 PM
Lemon juice is 'natural' but its strong stuff. And combined with sun-- where I'm from, people sunbleach their white clothes and chlorox is actually not as good for this. They use lemon juice on darker spots and put in the sun and they bleach right out. I'm thinking you don't want lemon juice and sun on your hair together anymore than you want to pour straight chlorox on it.

Plus--unpredictable as someone else said.

Natural does not mean 'gentle'. Deadly nightshade, poison ivy and many other things you don't want to deal with are 'natural'. Adn I know you eat lemons but you don't really drink lemon juice straight in large amounts, plus something can be okay for one part of the body but not for another. (I'm not into chemicals myself, especially not eating food with them, but I'm surprised at home many people think 'natural' automatically means 'good for you')

chen bao jun
December 18th, 2015, 01:52 PM
and oh--'roughly drying my hair, that's what my damaged ends are from (as well as some other roughness, rough combing etc.)

Deborah
December 18th, 2015, 02:12 PM
You are trying to compare things that are not comparable, and hoping to predict a healthy outcome from using something that is damaging to your hair. Lightening your hair color is damaging to the hair, however you do it. How badly it will be damaged, and how much the damage will show is crystal ball territory. No one can give you the answer you want.

Nightshade
December 20th, 2015, 03:15 AM
Lemon juice is 'natural' but its strong stuff. And combined with sun-- where I'm from, people sunbleach their white clothes and chlorox is actually not as good for this. They use lemon juice on darker spots and put in the sun and they bleach right out. I'm thinking you don't want lemon juice and sun on your hair together anymore than you want to pour straight chlorox on it.

Plus--unpredictable as someone else said.

Natural does not mean 'gentle'. Deadly nightshade, poison ivy and many other things you don't want to deal with are 'natural'. Adn I know you eat lemons but you don't really drink lemon juice straight in large amounts, plus something can be okay for one part of the body but not for another. (I'm not into chemicals myself, especially not eating food with them, but I'm surprised at home many people think 'natural' automatically means 'good for you')

I'm not THAT bad :wail: ;)

Yarrow
December 21st, 2015, 07:35 AM
I think it's really interesting, but I wouldn't be worried about the hair being ruined. I think the damage in both cases 1& 2 is somewhat negliable.
First of all, windows do filter out a bit of the UVA light.
I also doubt that lemon lightening is all about the UV light, the thermal heat of the sun probaly contributes more to it then the actual uv. But lemon juice also contains ascorbic acid (vitamin c), which is used as lightener and color lifter (as an alternative to commerical products such as color oops and color B4) without any uv or heat involved. So there might be several different processes involved when you use lemon as a hair lightener.
Even the article you stated as a reference says its the UVA light, not the UVB which lightens the hair. Anytime hair is lightened, it involves a process of oxidation. The oxiadation of hair components such as thiols leads to tangley ,not so smooth and sleek hair. This happens in the case of uv damage to hair gradually and accumaltivly, and is a likely cause for hair ends tangling together after a certain length but it can also happen much faster through bleaching or otherwise oxidizing the hair components.
It seems like you are on the right track with your new hair regime. I hope maybe you will get used to your "new'" dark hair color and fall in love with it, but if not you can certainly experiment some gradual lightening if you are so inclined.

Obsessed1
December 22nd, 2015, 06:43 AM
I think whether you use actual bleach/peroxide etc to achieve the desired lightness, or sun or lemon juice, it will cause similar damage because to remove pigment ypu have to open the cuticle. But you won't end up with orange hair from sun/lemon as you would be slightly lightening with bleach or peroxide so maybe that indicates it's less damaging as that would mean there's less keratin being exposed? Just theories, I really have no idea.

My hair suffered damage from lemon juice, bicarb soda, but I was also being very rough with it trying to get a red rinse stain out of my hair.

Personally, as a natural dark/medium blonde, I never fpund lemon juice+sun to have any lightening effect on my hair at all and I did it 5+ times in a month or so in summer