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View Full Version : Silicones pulling out wave. Any solutions?



Arete
November 23rd, 2015, 06:42 AM
My wave pattern when I go silicone free is something like this. Yes, this is an old pic!

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x385/TheJazzPony/6480d5b4-bb80-4a3d-ba69-39314eed7698_zpsueg1iz6w.jpg


With silicones it relaxes to this (taken today).

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x385/TheJazzPony/0652c017-4c3d-4e99-a5da-2b4a752860ce_zpszrpkzdwi.jpg


The main reason I stopped using silicones was because it pulled out my wave. Also, I found out the one my scalp didn't like was the one that starts with an "am" (too lazy to look it up). Due to some problems with end breakage, I returned to the use of silicones on recommendation of some other forum members. My hair seems happy, except for my wave getting pulled out. Is there a product or gel or something that I can use to get my wave back? Without silicones, I'd sometimes be in 3A territory. With, I'm leaning more 2A/B. I miss my wurlies.

Swan Maiden
November 23rd, 2015, 07:12 AM
I use silicones on my daughters curls. I scrunch her hair while it's wet to form the curls. I don't use any product to scrunch except maybe some diluted conditioner as leave in.

lapushka
November 23rd, 2015, 07:15 AM
I don't find the silicones pull out my wave, but I scrunch in leave-in (LOC method), then gel (Eco Styler olive oil), then a serum or oil after my hair comes out of the towel and is properly detangled.

Arete
November 23rd, 2015, 07:27 AM
I did scrunch, and my shortest layers tightly curled for one day, and then relaxed to 2b/2A. It did nothing for my under layer.

ivy-marie
November 23rd, 2015, 07:29 AM
Beautiful curls! I missed cones until I began doing catnip tea soaks (I put my hair in a ponytail and soak the length in a zip lock bag that I put a hair band around). This alone made my sister and my hair feel like kitten fur (which is a miracle on my hair). My sister is a curly girl and the catnip had no negative impact on her curl pattern. I also use fox's Shea butter recipe on the ends. My fragile tangly hair has been splitting much much less and is more manageable. I would experiment what your hair likes best :)
Perhaps you could use a normal conditioner on the majority of the length and then cones on the last couple inches if you wanted to continue to use the cones.

Arete
November 23rd, 2015, 07:42 AM
Previous routine: WCC once weekly. Pre oil and detangle with safflower oil let sit overnight. Oil lightly once or twoce during the week. Clarify with a color safe chelating shampoo bi-weekly. Spritz on Kimberlill'y frizz spray in the morning and brush lightly through top layer with a boar bristle brush.

My ends started breaking for no reason, so I SMTed last week, and this week used a coney conditioner, making a point to find one that didn't have the "heavy" cones which irritate my scalp. I've been using a silicone/oil serum once a day for slip. My ends seem very happy, and so does my hair as a whole. I'm still washing my hair once a week. I will alternate with SMTing and using the coney conditioner every other week. Still clarify bi weekly to prevent build up of silicones. I clarified before my SMT, and that seemed to work well.

I've been contemplating trying flaxseed gel. As I've heard good things about it from other curlies/wurlies. The catnip rinse intrigues me. I will see if I can find cheaper tea at the store, as the catnip tea I have is an expensive herbal blend that I'd rather save for drinking :p Hmmm... You ladies have given me some things to think on.

vpatt
November 23rd, 2015, 08:14 AM
I am curious about the catnip, also. Do you make just a regular tea and use it on ends only or all over?

meteor
November 23rd, 2015, 12:13 PM
Also, I found out the one my scalp didn't like was the one that starts with an "am" (too lazy to look it up).
Could be amodimethicone maybe?

I think if you know you like cones but the waves get weighed down, look for products marketed "for volume" or "for fine or thinning hair" that still contain silicones in the ingredients lists. Usually, such products have lower concentration of 'cones than products marketed for "frizzy" or "dry" or "chemically processed" hair. Also, it might help starting to analyze which cones do what for your hair... for example, some people seem to find volatile cones drying or dimethicone pretty straightening, coating and heavy, but PEG-cones to be light... It's very YMMV but definitely worth experimentation. ;)

Also, you could try drying hair in flexi-rods or foam rollers or rag curls or braidwaves... for creating controlled shape/texture that you want. Using texturizing powder or mousse or gel for hold might be worth considering, too.

Another thing to be aware of is that changing the type of a cut (say going from layers to more blunt or from shorter hair to longer) can really stretch out the wave/curl, so comparing texture on different cuts is hard. :)

Gorgeous hair texture by the way, Arete! Both stronger curls and looser waves look great! :D

Arete
November 23rd, 2015, 01:25 PM
Even though the first pic is about a year old, it's still pretty representative of my wave pattern now.

The conditioner I'm using has PEG Methicone as the only cone and it's listed as 10th ingredient. The serum's first ingredient is cyclopentasiloxane, followed by dimethiconol and jojoba oil. Those both seem like they might be volatile cones?

My hair does take texture very well, though I really want my natural wurl back if possible. Is there a type of setting that gives the "S" wave 2C business? Heatless, of course

meteor
November 23rd, 2015, 01:43 PM
^ My immediate thought was "magazine curls" (by beautyklove: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecOO4S1g8hs) or flexi-rods with vertical wrapping/positioning of hair around the rod. Or doing a few rope-braids overnight or even a few English braids?

Yes, cyclopentasiloxane and dimethiconol are both volatile 'cones. Might be worth experimenting with some water-soluble ones in formulations with cones not too high up on the ingredients lists? :)

lapushka
November 23rd, 2015, 01:48 PM
How much of this is really the "fault" of silicones and isn't because your hair has gotten longer? Length stretches out wave *immensely*, and a year's worth of growth can do a lot in that regard. I wouldn't be so quick to blame the products you're using.

spidermom
November 23rd, 2015, 02:00 PM
Use no-cone shampoo and conditioner. Then use a coney serum just on the very bottom where the ends are fragile.

Sometimes hair changes for no reason you'll ever figure out, however. I used to be 2C with the exact same routine that gives me something between 1C and 2A now. I often blow dry it now for about 1A/B texture. It's very pretty and shiny, and the straight hair tangles much less than my 2C hair did.

Arete
November 23rd, 2015, 02:07 PM
How much of this is really the "fault" of silicones and isn't because your hair has gotten longer? Length stretches out wave *immensely*, and a year's worth of growth can do a lot in that regard. I wouldn't be so quick to blame the products you're using.
I don't have any recent pics, but my pattern has stayed relatively the same this past year. I just started using silcones two weeks ago and there's a *noticable* difference. I did not have a growth spurt in the last two weeks, so can't attribute it to that. I will agree that my growth has stretched out the wave a bit. When I was BSL or less I could get my hair to go pretty much 3A with a little scrunching. However, my waves have stayed mostly 2C waist+ that gets more 2bish closer to wash day, but more of a stretched out 2C. The wave pattern has gone much more 2bish with my underlayer very 2A starting on 2nd day hair now that I'm using silicones.
The only thing that has changed in my routine is the silicones, so I'm assuming they're the cause. My hair reacted the exact same way in the past at shorter lengths with silicones as well. That's why I went cone free initially, because when I used stuff without cones, my wave pattern became much more 2C and stayed that way for longer between washes.
Right now I'm doing lots of updos, so I'm kind of okay with losing my wave. I knew it'd be one of the trade offs for more slip and such. But once I hit classic and will be trimming regularly so I don't have to baby my ends quite so much, I'd like to have a way so that when my hair is down it better reflects my natural texture while still being able to use silicones.
I think I found a good conditioner, with the methicone being lower on the ingredients list. I think I'll explore other options for serum/leave in, and perhaps try some gel. I'm also very curious about the catnip rinses. :hmm:

ETA: I do use a no cone shampoo, a little on the top of my canopy is okay, but silicones on my scalp are bad news. I itch terribly

rhosyn_du
November 23rd, 2015, 03:03 PM
Have you tried using only water-soluble silicones? For a while, I was using stylers with PEG-modified silicones, which are water-soluble, and they didn't weigh down my hair or build up the way other silicones do, and I also didn't need to use sulfates to remove them, which was huge for me, as my hair does not get along with sulfates at all.

lauren_alia
November 23rd, 2015, 03:51 PM
I noticed this about silicones too, but my hair is up most of the time so it wasn't a huge deal to me. I don't have any styling advice, but wanted to recommend a good silicone free conditioner (if you feel like going silicone free again). I've been using the GVP Conditioning Balm from Sally's. It's a knock off of the Matrix Biolage stuff. It's really, really good conditioner. I can hardly believe it's silicone free. It's so nice and creamy and moisturizing and has lots of slip, but I don't get the same "heaviness" that silicone conditioners were giving me.
Good luck, I hope you find something that works for you. :flower:

Deborah
November 23rd, 2015, 03:52 PM
Just stop using cones then.

lapushka
November 23rd, 2015, 03:58 PM
Just stop using cones then.

Yes but sometimes it's a dilemma, you know, because of tangles.

renia22
November 23rd, 2015, 04:00 PM
What conditioner is it? Is it possible that it might contain some heavier ingredients that are contributing to the heaviness on your hair, and it's not just a silicone issue?

lapushka
November 23rd, 2015, 04:05 PM
What conditioner is it? Is it possible that it might contain some heavier ingredients that are contributing to the heaviness on your hair, and it's not just a silicone issue?

Yes sometimes it really depends on the product itself!

Arete
November 23rd, 2015, 06:27 PM
Gariner Fructis Hydra recharge: I happened to pick it up while browsing and liked that the cone was farther down the list and there wasn't an "am" cone in it,

Ingredients: Aqua/Water/Eau, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Glycerin, Cetyl Esters, Isopropyl Myristate, Isopropyl Alcohol, Phenoxyethanol, Parfum/ Fr Agr Ance, Pyrus Malus Extract/Apple Fruit Extract, Lauryl Peg/Ppg-18/18 Methicone, Actinidia Chinensis Water/Kiwi Fruit Water, Citric Acid, Niacinamide, Pyridoxine Hcl, Chlorhexidine Digluconate, Dodecene, Hexyl Cinnamal, Poloxamer 407, Saccharum Officinarum Extract/Sugar Cane Extract/Extrait De Canne A Sucre, Lycium Barbarum Fruit Extract, Benzyl Alcohol, Passiflora Edulis Fruit Juice, Bisabolol, Citrus Medica Limonum Peel Extract/Lemon Peel Extract, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract, Ci 42090/Blue 1, Ci 19140/Yellow 5, Ci 42053/Green 3. F.I.L. D55033/1

See any culprits? My hair doesn't feel heavy afterwards with it, the wave just goes super fast, though perhaps this is the fault of the serum. It was just a cheap oil/silicone combo I picked up, and it does have cones as the first two ingredients. I don't recall the brand, will have to look.

renia22
November 23rd, 2015, 06:43 PM
I think it looks okay, maybe skip the serum and see what happens? Or even see if you can get away with using a little less conditioner, and see if that makes a difference?

Arete
November 23rd, 2015, 07:16 PM
Tried a 2:1: 1/4 water, aloe vera gel, glycerin mixture. I don't think it did a ton, other than to define the wave that still remained. Think I'll try straight aloe gel tomorrow morning and see how it goes.

http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x385/TheJazzPony/76184082-1240-4568-bd21-5da484d47bc7_zpsollzqwlf.png

ivy-marie
November 23rd, 2015, 08:03 PM
I am curious about the catnip, also. Do you make just a regular tea and use it on ends only or all over?
I found this thread to be extremely helpful!
I typically brew a cup of tea with a top on top, then either put my length to soak in a plastic ziplock bag or all over with a shower cap if I am not oiling my scalp that particular day.

ivy-marie
November 23rd, 2015, 08:05 PM
Oops, it didn't let me link the thread, sorry!
Search "catnip for split ends" on LHC
The third post from the top (by Ktani) is quite informative.

lapushka
November 24th, 2015, 06:45 AM
Gariner Fructis Hydra recharge: I happened to pick it up while browsing and liked that the cone was farther down the list and there wasn't an "am" cone in it,

Ingredients: Aqua/Water/Eau, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Glycerin, Cetyl Esters, Isopropyl Myristate, Isopropyl Alcohol, Phenoxyethanol, Parfum/ Fr Agr Ance, Pyrus Malus Extract/Apple Fruit Extract, Lauryl Peg/Ppg-18/18 Methicone, Actinidia Chinensis Water/Kiwi Fruit Water, Citric Acid, Niacinamide, Pyridoxine Hcl, Chlorhexidine Digluconate, Dodecene, Hexyl Cinnamal, Poloxamer 407, Saccharum Officinarum Extract/Sugar Cane Extract/Extrait De Canne A Sucre, Lycium Barbarum Fruit Extract, Benzyl Alcohol, Passiflora Edulis Fruit Juice, Bisabolol, Citrus Medica Limonum Peel Extract/Lemon Peel Extract, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract, Ci 42090/Blue 1, Ci 19140/Yellow 5, Ci 42053/Green 3. F.I.L. D55033/1

See any culprits? My hair doesn't feel heavy afterwards with it, the wave just goes super fast, though perhaps this is the fault of the serum. It was just a cheap oil/silicone combo I picked up, and it does have cones as the first two ingredients. I don't recall the brand, will have to look.

Is that a cone, it's quite high up the list... looking that one up as we speak.

Hey, BTW, this is a nice resource:
http://www.wikihow.com/Determine-if-a-Hair-Product-is-Curly-Girl-Approved

In it it says, quote:

"Here's a list of ingredients that look like silicones, or are water soluble silicones. These are exceptions that are OK:

Lauryl methicone copolyol (water soluble)
Lauryl PEG/PPG-18/18 Methicone
Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein Hydroxypropyl Polysiloxane (water soluble)
Dimethicone Copolyol (water soluble)
PEG-Dimethicone, or any other 'cone with "PEG-" suffix (water soluble)
Emulsifying Wax
PEG-Hydrogenated Castor Oil
Natural oils: Avocado oil, Olive oil, Coconut oil, etc.
Benzophenone-2, ( or 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10) - sunscreen
Methychloroisothiazolinone - preservative
Methylisothiazolinone - preservative"

missblueeyes
November 24th, 2015, 09:11 AM
If your scalp is giving you problems when you use 'cones, how about only applying the conditioner below your ears? I can't help with the waves but I'm not sure your scalp actually needs the coney conditioner if you mostly want it to protect your ends. :)

Arete
November 24th, 2015, 09:33 AM
I do only apply to the ends. In the past I had problems if even the tiniest bit got on my scalp. It seems to be the "am" cones that do it. I'd get itchy even if I was super careful. I have not had problems with the new products.

Thanks for the site lapushka!

lapushka
November 24th, 2015, 09:39 AM
Thanks for the site lapushka!

You're welcome! :)

missblueeyes
November 24th, 2015, 03:52 PM
I see! I must have skipped over that part when reading the posts. :) Well, I hope the experimenting helps you to get your waves back while being able to use 'cones!