Brazilian Blowouts nightmare - and it may be more than that

[Suzysu]

Hello, I'm new here. It is so helpful to read people's stories of hair woes and triumphs. Here's mine - I'm so sorry it's so long, but there are several odd factors involved, and I'd really appreciate your thoughts.

I am mixed race, 27, with 3B hair and all my life I've worn it natural. Yes, I've highlighted it - but only 10% - the rest has always been virgin hair. Never relaxed, never blow dried, never tonged. So....I thought if anyone was safe to have a Brazilian it was me.

Biggest mistake of my life. I have lost over 50% of my hair in what I assume is "diffuse hair loss" because the partings are extended. I also have a small (pea sized) bald patch on the crown of my head. Every week things get worse.

I went to an extremely reputable salon where they do Brazilians daily and were one of the first salon's to do them. I paid £240 - I didn't go somewhere cheap. I spent a LOT of time researching the best salons. There is no doubt the Brazilians triggered huge hair loss, but is that really all there was to it? Here are my observations - any help or advice is hugely appreciated.

1. I had extremely thick, strong hair in 2012. In the time leading up to 2012, I was using Aussie shampoo and conditioner. My hair never grew very long despite not cutting it in 10 years. I wore it as an afro.

2. At some point - maybe 2013 - I heard that Head and Shoulders Shampoo and Conditioner was brilliant for anyone's hair. I used it and found it was good - not exceptional - but good.

3. I decided I was sick of having really frizzy hair, and thought - why don't I leave the conditioner on my hair -rather than rinsing it out? My hair is like a sponge - it never gets too greasy. This weighed my big hair down a little and made it look well conditioned. My hair was no longer dry!

4. About 18 months ago, I switched to Johnson's Baby Shampoo (and used L'Oreal Elvive Nutri-gloss conditioner). Again I'd leave the conditioner on my hair. Now, as I'd always found that as soon as I sleep on my hair, it becomes a huge, and scarecrow like. So...why not wash it every morning since I'm using such a gentle shampoo?

---- ODD THINGS HAPPEN-----

5. In September of 2014, I happened to take a morning selfie without washing my hair first - it was big and frizzy as usual. But when I looked at the picture, to my shock I could see a lot of light through the hair. My hair was substantially thinner....

6. I thought - well, hair thins as we get older, and I have a lot of hair, and no bald patches... maybe this is just normal? I still had lots of hair left.

7. I started to notice....that my hair was unusually long. Just below my breasts if held straight. Yet for the past 10 years it had been at just below shoulder length.

CONCLUSION: There is always a delayed reaction to anything we do to our hair. When I researched about Head and Shoulders I found so many people saying they had lost hair from using it. Did it thin my hair. When I researched into Johnson's Baby shampoo I expected to find the same - instead I found people saying that their hair was really long from Johnson's baby shampoo.

So, when I went for my Brazilian blowout my hair was curiously long and thin. Even each individual hair seemed thinner.

I had the Brazilian in mid August. I fell in love with my beautiful swishy hair. It took 10 minutes to blow dry it - and I virtuously did it just once a week and only at a salon.

After 2 washes (I washed my hair once a week), with sulphate and salt-free shampoo....the Brazilian was gone. I showed my hair to the salon who had done it. They were shocked and said they'd do it again. Note: 0.02% formaldehyde was used each time. That's 10% of the legal limit. Formaldehyde is in nail varnish, etc.

8. When they gave me the second Brazilian.... about six weeks after the first, I was shocked at how little hair I had. It was at least 1/3 less than before. The hairstylist was cheerfully oblivious although she did my hair the first time too, and I was too embarrassed to mention it.

9. Well, this time the Brazilian has lasted. But my hair has not, and I will not blow dry my hair when it is so fragile so it looks pretty rubbish. My scalp itches. My partings are bigger. I have lost over 50% of my hair. I have a small bald patch at my crown.

-----------MY EFFORTS--------

I got tested for thyroid issues. My thyroid is normal but I also had made my GP test thyroid antibodies which are very high indeed. 299. My GP said that despite the anti-bodies being so high my thyroid still appears to be doing a good job and he therefore cannot proscribe anything. Other than hair loss and sensitivity to cold - my house is like a furnace apparently - I have no other thyroid symptoms, though it is in my family.

I got tested for vitamin B levels and iron levels - both came back fine. In fact my ferritin levels are at 89 which is very good.

The only other factor other than the BB, could be hormone levels - we haven't tested for that yet. I am slim (UK size 8) so I'm not sure it's likely, but I want to find out. My hair has been thinning for a while, after all.

I am taking Biotin - 5000 mcg (good for hair growth apparently) Evening Primrose capsules (good for hormones), pre-natal tablets (good for hair growth apparently although my folic acid levels are high already, but also has zinc, selenium, etc), vitamin D3 - 25 ug (women with hair loss are often low in D3).

I am washing my hair with Johnson's baby shampoo as it is the one my continually slightly itchy scalp likes best - plus I could use the hair growth... So, every 3 days I wash my hair with Johnson's shampoo, and then, for my second wash, I used Nizoral anti-dandruff shampoo, leaving it on for 5 mins. Apparently it is a good DHT blocker - the active ingredient, ketoconazole, is supposed to be as good as minoxidil - without the side effects (headaches and facial hair).

I have only been taking these vitamins for a week so...I can't comment. Every time I wash my hair I lose 50-100 hairs, which isn't bad BUT no new hair is growing in the bald patch / extended partings. At this rate, within a month I will have lots of bald patches I can no longer hide.

No new hair is growing, yet my doctor says he cannot see scarring of the scalp, which is a relief though it is clear he knows nothing about hair loss.... How long does it take to see a few baby hairs push through? It would be such a comfort to have new hair growing.

I am being referred to a dermatologist by my doctor, but that could take six weeks. If only there was an affordable private dermatologist in London - they all charge £250 just for a consultation! Crazy.

I am so sorry for the long, long first posting. I must seem very self-involved. But you see, after a lifetime of difficult, short hair, I had a few brief weeks of lovely hair. I was so happy I was skipping about the place. And now - my dream is over and my hair is falling out. Just seems so cruel.

Please help - any advice gratefully received. Mainly I want to get rid of the mild itching as that must be a sign of inflammation...and as long as there is inflammation I don't believe new hair will grow.

[queenbee1]

Hello, I'm new here. It is so helpful to read people's stories of hair woes and triumphs. Here's mine - I'm so sorry it's so long, but there are several odd factors involved, and I'd really appreciate your thoughts.

I am mixed race, 27, with 3B hair and all my life I've worn it natural. Yes, I've highlighted it - but only 10% - the rest has always been virgin hair. Never relaxed, never blow dried, never tonged. So....I thought if anyone was safe to have a Brazilian it was me.

Biggest mistake of my life. I have lost over 50% of my hair in what I assume is "diffuse hair loss" because the partings are extended. I also have a small (pea sized) bald patch on the crown of my head. Every week things get worse.

I went to an extremely reputable salon where they do Brazilians daily and were one of the first salon's to do them. I paid £240 - I didn't go somewhere cheap. I spent a LOT of time researching the best salons. There is no doubt the Brazilians triggered huge hair loss, but is that really all there was to it? Here are my observations - any help or advice is hugely appreciated.

1. I had extremely thick, strong hair in 2012. In the time leading up to 2012, I was using Aussie shampoo and conditioner. My hair never grew very long despite not cutting it in 10 years. I wore it as an afro.

2. At some point - maybe 2013 - I heard that Head and Shoulders Shampoo and Conditioner was brilliant for anyone's hair. I used it and found it was good - not exceptional - but good.

3. I decided I was sick of having really frizzy hair, and thought - why don't I leave the conditioner on my hair -rather than rinsing it out? My hair is like a sponge - it never gets too greasy. This weighed my big hair down a little and made it look well conditioned. My hair was no longer dry!

4. About 18 months ago, I switched to Johnson's Baby Shampoo (and used L'Oreal Elvive Nutri-gloss conditioner). Again I'd leave the conditioner on my hair. Now, as I'd always found that as soon as I sleep on my hair, it becomes a huge, and scarecrow like. So...why not wash it every morning since I'm using such a gentle shampoo?

---- ODD THINGS HAPPEN-----

5. In September of 2014, I happened to take a morning selfie without washing my hair first - it was big and frizzy as usual. But when I looked at the picture, to my shock I could see a lot of light through the hair. My hair was substantially thinner....

6. I thought - well, hair thins as we get older, and I have a lot of hair, and no bald patches... maybe this is just normal? I still had lots of hair left.

7. I started to notice....that my hair was unusually long. Just below my breasts if held straight. Yet for the past 10 years it had been at just below shoulder length.

CONCLUSION: There is always a delayed reaction to anything we do to our hair. When I researched about Head and Shoulders I found so many people saying they had lost hair from using it. Did it thin my hair. When I researched into Johnson's Baby shampoo I expected to find the same - instead I found people saying that their hair was really long from Johnson's baby shampoo.

So, when I went for my Brazilian blowout my hair was curiously long and thin. Even each individual hair seemed thinner.

I had the Brazilian in mid August. I fell in love with my beautiful swishy hair. It took 10 minutes to blow dry it - and I virtuously did it just once a week and only at a salon.

After 2 washes (I washed my hair once a week), with sulphate and salt-free shampoo....the Brazilian was gone. I showed my hair to the salon who had done it. They were shocked and said they'd do it again. Note: 0.02% formaldehyde was used each time. That's 10% of the legal limit. Formaldehyde is in nail varnish, etc.

8. When they gave me the second Brazilian.... about six weeks after the first, I was shocked at how little hair I had. It was at least 1/3 less than before. The hairstylist was cheerfully oblivious although she did my hair the first time too, and I was too embarrassed to mention it.

9. Well, this time the Brazilian has lasted. But my hair has not, and I will not blow dry my hair when it is so fragile so it looks pretty rubbish. My scalp itches. My partings are bigger. I have lost over 50% of my hair. I have a small bald patch at my crown.

-----------MY EFFORTS--------

I got tested for thyroid issues. My thyroid is normal but I also had made my GP test thyroid antibodies which are very high indeed. 299. My GP said that despite the anti-bodies being so high my thyroid still appears to be doing a good job and he therefore cannot proscribe anything. Other than hair loss and sensitivity to cold - my house is like a furnace apparently - I have no other thyroid symptoms, though it is in my family.

I got tested for vitamin B levels and iron levels - both came back fine. In fact my ferritin levels are at 89 which is very good.

The only other factor other than the BB, could be hormone levels - we haven't tested for that yet. I am slim (UK size 8) so I'm not sure it's likely, but I want to find out. My hair has been thinning for a while, after all.

I am taking Biotin - 5000 mcg (good for hair growth apparently) Evening Primrose capsules (good for hormones), pre-natal tablets (good for hair growth apparently although my folic acid levels are high already, but also has zinc, selenium, etc), vitamin D3 - 25 ug (women with hair loss are often low in D3).

I am washing my hair with Johnson's baby shampoo as it is the one my continually slightly itchy scalp likes best - plus I could use the hair growth... So, every 3 days I wash my hair with Johnson's shampoo, and then, for my second wash, I used Nizoral anti-dandruff shampoo, leaving it on for 5 mins. Apparently it is a good DHT blocker - the active ingredient, ketoconazole, is supposed to be as good as minoxidil - without the side effects (headaches and facial hair).

I have only been taking these vitamins for a week so...I can't comment. Every time I wash my hair I lose 50-100 hairs, which isn't bad BUT no new hair is growing in the bald patch / extended partings. At this rate, within a month I will have lots of bald patches I can no longer hide.

No new hair is growing, yet my doctor says he cannot see scarring of the scalp, which is a relief though it is clear he knows nothing about hair loss.... How long does it take to see a few baby hairs push through? It would be such a comfort to have new hair growing.

I am being referred to a dermatologist by my doctor, but that could take six weeks. If only there was an affordable private dermatologist in London - they all charge £250 just for a consultation! Crazy.

I am so sorry for the long, long first posting. I must seem very self-involved. But you see, after a lifetime of difficult, short hair, I had a few brief weeks of lovely hair. I was so happy I was skipping about the place. And now - my dream is over and my hair is falling out. Just seems so cruel.

Please help - any advice gratefully received. Mainly I want to get rid of the mild itching as that must be a sign of inflammation...and as long as there is inflammation I don't believe new hair will grow.

I'm not a hair expert so i can't help you. But I'm so, so sorry you're going through this. I pray that God helps though and you find a solution to this soon. Try castor oil for thinking hair, and maybe coffee rinses. Try cutting one thing out of your routine, one at a time, for maybe a week and then go on simplifying your routine. Good luck, cheers! And don't stress about it

[queenbee1]

*God helps you through this
*coffee rinses for thinning hair

[pailin]

I don't have an answer, but here are my immediate thoughts:

-If it were me, I'd want to see an endocrinologist about the thyroid. Even if your gp didn't think it needed treating, something sounds like it may not be right, and thyroid related problems can definitely cause hair loss, and maybe affect the individual strands too.

-Did you say you're shampooing your hair twice when you wash it? I would think that's more than necessary.

-Also, while we tend to think of baby shampoo as gentle, it's actually gentle to your eyes, but not necessarily to your scalp.

ETA- personally I have used baby shampoo at times and liked it, but I find my scalp just doesn't tolerate it for long... Sooner or later I start to itch.

[red autumn]

i am so sorry you have to deal with this. i can't help you for your hair, but i caan tell you i chimically burned all my hair and lost 80cm of it in ten minutes, so i think i understand a bit of your sadness.
what you maybe can do for your scalp, is put coconut oil on it, it is very nurishing, and for me it stops the itching.
i hope things get better soon!

[Suzysu]

I don't have an answer, but here are my immediate thoughts:

-If it were me, I'd want to see an endocrinologist about the thyroid. Even if your gp didn't think it needed treating, something sounds like it may not be right, and thyroid related problems can definitely cause hair loss, and maybe affect the individual strands too.

-Did you say you're shampooing your hair twice when you wash it? I would think that's more than necessary.

-Also, while we tend to think of baby shampoo as gentle, it's actually gentle to your eyes, but not necessarily to your scalp.

ETA- personally I have used baby shampoo at times and liked it, but I find my scalp just doesn't tolerate it for long... Sooner or later I start to itch.


You are completely right - baby shampoo isn't gentle at all. It's great for length but it does make your hair dry.

However, I bought Aveda Shampure and my scalp was itchier than when I used Johnson's so I just went with the best for me.

I do have to shampoo twice, unfortunately. It's really important that I use Nizoral as it is helpful to hair growth - but it is so hard to get any kind of lather, so I wash with Johnson's to get my hair clean, and then just apply Nizoral to the scalp.

[Suzysu]

I'm not a hair expert so i can't help you. But I'm so, so sorry you're going through this. I pray that God helps though and you find a solution to this soon. Try castor oil for thinking hair, and maybe coffee rinses. Try cutting one thing out of your routine, one at a time, for maybe a week and then go on simplifying your routine. Good luck, cheers! And don't stress about it

Thank you so much for your kind words. I really appreciate them.

My diet has always been very good - salmon and scrambled eggs and spinach for breakfast, chicken and veg for lunch, dinner is poultry and veg and brown rice - twice a week I'll have red meat for iron. I have about 7-9 portions of fruit and veg a day. I guess that's why my thyroid is able to function while under attack.

[tigress86]

I would recommend peppermint essential oil for your scalp, if your scalp can handle it (the doc said there was no scarring, so I suppose it should be fine?).
Here is a study about peppermint essential oil helping with hair loss: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4289931/
I don't have hair loss issues myself, but I use it on my scalp sometimes diluted in coconut oil and I find it makes the hair grow a bit faster. I hope that the dermatologist you get to see will be able to help you.

[Suzysu]

I would recommend peppermint essential oil for your scalp, if your scalp can handle it (the doc said there was no scarring, so I suppose it should be fine?).
Here is a study about peppermint essential oil helping with hair loss: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4289931/
I don't have hair loss issues myself, but I use it on my scalp sometimes diluted in coconut oil and I find it makes the hair grow a bit faster. I hope that the dermatologist you get to see will be able to help you.

Wow - I had no idea. So, peppermint oil outperformed minoxidil - that's great news. I will 100% try it. I will do a patch test first.

Thank you, I'd not heard of this before.

[Horrorpops]

I would definitely recommend seeing the dermatologist if you can afford it. This kind of stuff is definitely outside my knowledge area and probably outside of the knowledge of GPs too. :o

Hopefully a dermatologist who is experienced in hair loss will be able to get your hair back on track. This sounds really stressful but try and not worry too much, mindfulness and aromatherapy definitely help me feel calm. And stress is not good for hair.

Please don't apologize, you don't seen self involved. It sounds like a confusing situation but you seem to be doing what you can.

I second PPs about baby shampoo not always being gentle on the scalp and oiling scalp and hair for health. Nice gentle scalp massages can also stimulate blood supply (and maybe stimulate hair growth).

Wishing you all the best!! :flower:

[queenbee1]

Thank you so much for your kind words. I really appreciate them.

My diet has always been very good - salmon and scrambled eggs and spinach for breakfast, chicken and veg for lunch, dinner is poultry and veg and brown rice - twice a week I'll have red meat for iron. I have about 7-9 portions of fruit and veg a day. I guess that's why my thyroid is able to function while under attack.

Thats awesome that your thyroid is happy, and your diet is goals, tbh. :)

[IDreamOfGinger]

Your hair may have received too much protein from the Brazilian Blowouts. They act as sort of a heavy protein treatment by imparting keratin into the hair shaft. You might be suffering from protein overload which can lead to hair loss if severe. How often do you deep condition your hair?

[Suzysu]

Your hair may have received too much protein from the Brazilian Blowouts. They act as sort of a heavy protein treatment by imparting keratin into the hair shaft. You might be suffering from protein overload which can lead to hair loss if severe. How often do you deep condition your hair?

Between scheduling my second BB, there was a period of a week, when I religiously deep conditioned my hair every single evening, wrapping my hair in cling film and heating it with my hair dryer.

One evening I used too high a heat and my scalp started itching. But it stopped itching after a couple of days, and it was weeks before I got the itching I have now - post my second Brazilian Blowout.

For my deep conditioners I alternated between the Moroccan Oil Hair Mask and coconut oil - and would leave them in all night, with my hair wrapped up in clingfilm.

Once I had the Brazilian, I would wash, deep condition and blow dry my hair just once a week.

But I was so religious about looking after my hair. I got this Cashmere Leave in Conditioner and would spray it into my hair every day.

When my hair started falling out, I checked the ingredients and saw that they included keratin. As did the very expensive Paul Mitchel Wild Ginger Shampoo and conditioner I was using.

I have stopped using all products with keratin, as I agree I had an overload.

[Suzysu]

I would definitely recommend seeing the dermatologist if you can afford it. This kind of stuff is definitely outside my knowledge area and probably outside of the knowledge of GPs too. :o

Hopefully a dermatologist who is experienced in hair loss will be able to get your hair back on track. This sounds really stressful but try and not worry too much, mindfulness and aromatherapy definitely help me feel calm. And stress is not good for hair.

Please don't apologize, you don't seen self involved. It sounds like a confusing situation but you seem to be doing what you can.

I second PPs about baby shampoo not always being gentle on the scalp and oiling scalp and hair for health. Nice gentle scalp massages can also stimulate blood supply (and maybe stimulate hair growth).

Wishing you all the best!! :flower:

Thank you so much! Yes, I am going to put a drop or two of peppermint oil and mix it with coconut oil, and see if that stimulates hair growth.

I will tip my head forward while doing so as I hear that it's good for the blood to go to the head.

You know, back when I used to wash my hair every day, it grew very long. May be the baby shampoo, but it also may be that it was getting a massage everyday?!

Anyway, I don't recommend it as you end up with very long very dry hair!

[lapushka]

Between scheduling my second BB, there was a period of a week, when I religiously deep conditioned my hair every single evening, wrapping my hair in cling film and heating it with my hair dryer.

You did two straightening treatments with just a week apart? That might be the key to all your issues right now. You might have overdone it.

[tigress86]

Just wanted to say that I put 5 drops of peppermint oil into one tablespoon of carrier oil. I can't recall the exact source I read it from, but that should approximately be the ratio.

[Suzysu]

You did two straightening treatments with just a week apart? That might be the key to all your issues right now. You might have overdone it.

No, no - sorry I've been confusing. I did a Brazilian blowout, and within 2 weeks it was gone. The salon said they'd do it again (5-6 wks after my first one) and in the week before the second one I did loads of intensive conditioning.

I do think your point still stands though - you are supposed to wait 3 months BUT when the salon examined my hair after the first one they said it was like I had never had one - by their own admission.

[Ephemia]

Have you been putting conditioner on your scalp? Some people find that makes them shed handfuls, same with oils. I'm not sure whether or not I'm one of those people (although I think oil on my scalp increases my shed rate a smidgen) but I only apply conditioner from the ears down just in case. I had a major shed when I was about 11 which might have been to do with something like that, but I shall never know what it was unfortunately.

[Suzysu]

Have you been putting conditioner on your scalp? Some people find that makes them shed handfuls, same with oils. I'm not sure whether or not I'm one of those people (although I think oil on my scalp increases my shed rate a smidgen) but I only apply conditioner from the ears down just in case. I had a major shed when I was about 11 which might have been to do with something like that, but I shall never know what it was unfortunately.

Is that possible? If that is possible then it would explain a lot.

As explained, I used to leave in my hair conditioner every time I washed my hair - and yes, it was combed through the hair, in direct contact with the scalp.

Could that be the reason my hair has been thinning over the last couple of years? And then the shock of the Brazilians on thin hair finished it off - resulting in hair loss?

I wonder.

[meteor]

I'm so sorry you are going through this! :grouphug: I can only echo others saying that it's important to get it checked out by a GP and a dermatologist. GP can help you figure out if there are any nutritional deficiencies, hormonal or other health issues and a derm will check your scalp for any skin issues.

It's possible that there are a bunch of factors all playing at once:
- breakage from keratin straightening (you did it twice in a very short period of time, which basically means double-processed hair - more prone to breakage) -> maybe consider heavy treatments for chemically processed hair, penetrating oils (e.g. coconut) and something like Olaplex standalone treatment? Ultimately, you'll just need to grow out the damage.
- chemical burn or some sensitivity to something in the BKT? It would help to call back the salon and ask them what exactly they used so, at least, you'll know what ingredients to avoid in the future.
- maybe some scalp issue or some underlying health issue(s)? Only doctors can help there. I'd ask to do a very broad blood panel, because many, many things can have thinning as a symptom, unfortunately.


Your hair may have received too much protein from the Brazilian Blowouts. They act as sort of a heavy protein treatment by imparting keratin into the hair shaft. You might be suffering from protein overload which can lead to hair loss if severe. How often do you deep condition your hair?

I have stopped using all products with keratin, as I agree I had an overload.

I just wanted to mention that "keratin treatment" is a chemical straightening treatment, so the "keratin" bit can be seen as a bit misleading - if you removed the keratin from the ingredients, the straightening would still occur due to the chemicals used for the straightening: formaldehyde/methylene glycol, or oxoacetamide/oxoacetic acid/glyoxylic acid, or cysteine/ethanolamine/cysteamine hydrochloride, which cross-link, reform some free bonds of hair and reduce a few bonds as well.
Hydrolyzed keratin (or other forms of hydrolyzed protein) is just a very helpful ingredient in general hair care anyway, especially when there is damage - it temporarily coats hair, patch-repairs it a bit. It's often added to chemical treatments, as well. :)
Heavy protein treatments don't break bonds, they just deposit hydrolyzed (broken-up) protein on top of hair, like a film (think gelatin), which can sort of "stiffen" hair temporarily, but they wash out with no damage.
Basically, if your hair is damaged after a keratin treatment, it's probably due to the chemical straightening breaking bonds, not protein deposited on hair.

More on how hydrolyzed protein works on hair:
More about protein: http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2013/09/more-about-protein.html
Protein: size matters: http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2009/06/size-matters-protein-conditioning-part.html


Have you been putting conditioner on your scalp? Some people find that makes them shed handfuls, same with oils. I'm not sure whether or not I'm one of those people (although I think oil on my scalp increases my shed rate a smidgen) but I only apply conditioner from the ears down just in case. I had a major shed when I was about 11 which might have been to do with something like that, but I shall never know what it was unfortunately.

I agree, this could be a problem, especially for hair prone to SD. Since you need to use Nizoral regularly, I wouldn't rule out some fungal issue possibly going on on scalp. Oils rich in oleic acid (olive oil, avocado oil, argan oil, for example) can feed Malassezia fungus, linked to SD (more on this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16382685 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18004291), so I'd avoid oiling scalp or putting any conditioners rich in oils there. There are just too many ingredients to consider and the product is not really meant to be used on scalp, so you are taking a bit of a risk with conditioners on sensitive scalp.

Also, fungal conditions can lead to some hair thinning if left untreated, so I'd definitely see a derm to rule out any serious problems! :flower:

I really hope your hair will grow back super-healthy again and everything will be much better soon! :flower:

[hennalonghair]

I'm so sorry you are going through this! :grouphug: I can only echo others saying that it's important to get it checked out by a GP and a dermatologist. GP can help you figure out if there are any nutritional deficiencies, hormonal or other health issues and a derm will check your scalp for any skin issues.

It's possible that there are a bunch of factors all playing at once:
- breakage from keratin straightening (you did it twice in a very short period of time, which basically means double-processed hair - more prone to breakage) -> maybe consider heavy treatments for chemically processed hair, penetrating oils (e.g. coconut) and something like Olaplex standalone treatment? Ultimately, you'll just need to grow out the damage.
- chemical burn or some sensitivity to something in the BKT? It would help to call back the salon and ask them what exactly they used so, at least, you'll know what ingredients to avoid in the future.
- maybe some scalp issue or some underlying health issue(s)? Only doctors can help there. I'd ask to do a very broad blood panel, because many, many things can have thinning as a symptom, unfortunately.




I just wanted to mention that "keratin treatment" is a chemical straightening treatment, so the "keratin" bit can be seen as a bit misleading - if you removed the keratin from the ingredients, the straightening would still occur due to the chemicals used for the straightening: formaldehyde/methylene glycol, or oxoacetamide/oxoacetic acid/glyoxylic acid, or cysteine/ethanolamine/cysteamine hydrochloride, which cross-link, reform some free bonds of hair and reduce a few bonds as well.
Hydrolyzed keratin (or other forms of hydrolyzed protein) is just a very helpful ingredient in general hair care anyway, especially when there is damage - it temporarily coats hair, patch-repairs it a bit. It's often added to chemical treatments, as well. :)
Heavy protein treatments don't break bonds, they just deposit hydrolyzed (broken-up) protein on top of hair, like a film (think gelatin), which can sort of "stiffen" hair temporarily, but they wash out with no damage.
Basically, if your hair is damaged after a keratin treatment, it's probably due to the chemical straightening breaking bonds, not protein deposited on hair.

More on how hydrolyzed protein works on hair:
More about protein: http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2013/09/more-about-protein.html
Protein: size matters: http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2009/06/size-matters-protein-conditioning-part.html



I agree, this could be a problem, especially for hair prone to SD. Since you need to use Nizoral regularly, I wouldn't rule out some fungal issue possibly going on on scalp. Oils rich in oleic acid (olive oil, avocado oil, argan oil, for example) can feed Malassezia fungus, linked to SD (more on this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16382685 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18004291), so I'd avoid oiling scalp or putting any conditioners rich in oils there. There are just too many ingredients to consider and the product is not really meant to be used on scalp, so you are taking a bit of a risk with conditioners on sensitive scalp.

Also, fungal conditions can lead to some hair thinning if left untreated, so I'd definitely see a derm to rule out any serious problems! :flower:

I really hope your hair will grow back super-healthy again and everything will be much better soon! :flower:

You're amazing meteor ! :flower:

[Suzysu]

I'm so sorry you are going through this! :grouphug: I can only echo others saying that it's important to get it checked out by a GP and a dermatologist. GP can help you figure out if there are any nutritional deficiencies, hormonal or other health issues and a derm will check your scalp for any skin issues.

It's possible that there are a bunch of factors all playing at once:
- breakage from keratin straightening (you did it twice in a very short period of time, which basically means double-processed hair - more prone to breakage) -> maybe consider heavy treatments for chemically processed hair, penetrating oils (e.g. coconut) and something like Olaplex standalone treatment? Ultimately, you'll just need to grow out the damage.
- chemical burn or some sensitivity to something in the BKT? It would help to call back the salon and ask them what exactly they used so, at least, you'll know what ingredients to avoid in the future.
- maybe some scalp issue or some underlying health issue(s)? Only doctors can help there. I'd ask to do a very broad blood panel, because many, many things can have thinning as a symptom, unfortunately.




I just wanted to mention that "keratin treatment" is a chemical straightening treatment, so the "keratin" bit can be seen as a bit misleading - if you removed the keratin from the ingredients, the straightening would still occur due to the chemicals used for the straightening: formaldehyde/methylene glycol, or oxoacetamide/oxoacetic acid/glyoxylic acid, or cysteine/ethanolamine/cysteamine hydrochloride, which cross-link, reform some free bonds of hair and reduce a few bonds as well.
Hydrolyzed keratin (or other forms of hydrolyzed protein) is just a very helpful ingredient in general hair care anyway, especially when there is damage - it temporarily coats hair, patch-repairs it a bit. It's often added to chemical treatments, as well. :)
Heavy protein treatments don't break bonds, they just deposit hydrolyzed (broken-up) protein on top of hair, like a film (think gelatin), which can sort of "stiffen" hair temporarily, but they wash out with no damage.
Basically, if your hair is damaged after a keratin treatment, it's probably due to the chemical straightening breaking bonds, not protein deposited on hair.

More on how hydrolyzed protein works on hair:
More about protein: http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2013/09/more-about-protein.html
Protein: size matters: http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2009/06/size-matters-protein-conditioning-part.html



I agree, this could be a problem, especially for hair prone to SD. Since you need to use Nizoral regularly, I wouldn't rule out some fungal issue possibly going on on scalp. Oils rich in oleic acid (olive oil, avocado oil, argan oil, for example) can feed Malassezia fungus, linked to SD (more on this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16382685 and http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18004291), so I'd avoid oiling scalp or putting any conditioners rich in oils there. There are just too many ingredients to consider and the product is not really meant to be used on scalp, so you are taking a bit of a risk with conditioners on sensitive scalp.

Also, fungal conditions can lead to some hair thinning if left untreated, so I'd definitely see a derm to rule out any serious problems! :flower:

I really hope your hair will grow back super-healthy again and everything will be much better soon! :flower:

WOW!!! Thank you for the hugely helpful and detailed response. It is massively appreciated.

I just try and focus on each day, but I dread hair washing, because when my hair is wet it is obvious how much I've lost.

I am actually using Nizoral purely because I'm losing hair - not because I have dandruff, however, I have strong reason to believe you are right about the fungal element.

I do have a tendency that way - I used to have tinea versicolor which is a fungal infection AND I've had candida before. So I am clearly that way inclined.

As for keratin - look, you are right. Keratin is not the problem but because I have had so many different keratin products in my hair, including one which (through no fault of keratin itself) did me a lot of damage, I'm thinking I might be sensitive to it now? I mean nuts aren't bad, but people can develop an allergy to them.

I don't know - I just don't want to risk keratin reminding my hair of all it's going through!

My GP is pretty hopeless - I just can't wait until I get to see a dermatologist. If anyone knows of an affordable one in London I would be eternally grateful.

[meteor]

^ :o You are too kind, hennalonghair! :flower:
Everybody provided great info and support! :blossom:

It sounds like a tricky situation of multiple issues combined, but first and foremost, just like others said, I'd see a doctor and get the blood panel (I'd make sure to test ferritin for iron, TSH & free F4 - for thyroid - they are just such common issues!) and ask the doctor to examine the scalp.
And kudos to you, Suzysu, on following such a great, healthy diet! :thumbsup:
Also, I forgot to mention (though it's kind of obvious stuff): I'd definitely make sure to protect the hair as much as humanly possible. If you are having breakage, make sure you sleep on silky smooth materials (silky/satin-y scarf, pillowcase or bonnet), keep hair up in low-manipulation styles, wear a hat/buff/scarf when it's sunny or windy, don't over-brush, don't over-wash, check your detangling tools for seams and snags. Some can only use fingers or very wide-tooth combs... And of course, avoid all heat styling, chemical processing and tight, high-manipulation styles. Processed hair is inherently weaker, so can't take as much new stress as virgin hair, of course. HTH! :flower:

[meteor]

WOW!!! Thank you for the hugely helpful and detailed response. It is massively appreciated.

I just try and focus on each day, but I dread hair washing, because when my hair is wet it is obvious how much I've lost.

I am actually using Nizoral purely because I'm losing hair - not because I have dandruff, however, I have strong reason to believe you are right about the fungal element.

I do have a tendency that way - I used to have tinea versicolor which is a fungal infection AND I've had candida before. So I am clearly that way inclined.

As for keratin - look, you are right. Keratin is not the problem but because I have had so many different keratin products in my hair, including one which (through no fault of keratin itself) did me a lot of damage, I'm thinking I might be sensitive to it now? I mean nuts aren't bad, but people can develop an allergy to them.

I don't know - I just don't want to risk keratin reminding my hair of all it's going through!

My GP is pretty hopeless - I just can't wait until I get to see a dermatologist. If anyone knows of an affordable one in London I would be eternally grateful.

Thanks a lot, Suzysu! So do you think the Nizoral might be helping you because of DHT-blocking properties of ketoconazole rather than ketoconazole's simple anti-fungal action for SD? :hmm: If so, I'd definitely raise this issue when you see your doctor. It's important, because it could prompt them to test for other issues.
I know Nizoral is a popular shampoo for male pattern baldness due to ketoconazole, for example. There are gentler ketoconazole versions out there, like Regenepure Dr shampoo (with ketoconazole, saw palmetto, B6, niacin, caffeine...) but it's more expensive, but more targeting specifically thinning. Still, I'd only go down that path, if it's female pattern baldness - in that case even minoxidil/Rogaine might be worth a shot (but it has a ton of side-effects and stops working if you stop). I really think only a doctor can figure out what's really going on. :flower:

I hope your hair will regrow full and healthy soon! :pray:

[Suzysu]

^ :o You are too kind, hennalonghair! :flower:
Everybody provided great info and support! :blossom:

It sounds like a tricky situation of multiple issues combined, but first and foremost, just like others said, I'd see a doctor and get the blood panel (I'd make sure to test ferritin for iron, TSH & free F4 - for thyroid - they are just such common issues!) and ask the doctor to examine the scalp.
And kudos to you, Suzysu, on following such a great, healthy diet! :thumbsup:
Also, I forgot to mention (though it's kind of obvious stuff): I'd definitely make sure to protect the hair as much as humanly possible. If you are having breakage, make sure you sleep on silky smooth materials (silky/satin-y scarf, pillowcase or bonnet), keep hair up in low-manipulation styles, wear a hat/buff/scarf when it's sunny or windy, don't over-brush, don't over-wash, check your detangling tools for seams and snags. Some can only use fingers or very wide-tooth combs... And of course, avoid all heat styling, chemical processing and tight, high-manipulation styles. Processed hair is inherently weaker, so can't take as much new stress as virgin hair, of course. HTH! :flower:

Yeah, had my ferritin and thyroid and B vit levels checked. See my first post. All fine except for those pesky thyroid anti bodies. My doc won't treat it as he says despite the thyroid antibodies being unusually high....it is not impacting on my thyroid yet.............. So, I have to wait until it ruins my thyroid before I can have treatment..

Like I said, not a great GP!

But in all honesty I am more and more thinking this is fungal related - see my previous response to you. And THANK YOU! In fact, everyone has been wonderfully helpful and supportive.

What a great community.

[meteor]

^ Actually, if you think it's fungal, it should be a relatively easy fix. :) Using anti-fungals regularly (e.g. ketoconazole-based shampoo like Nizoral), leaving it on for a few minutes, really massaging it in before you rinse, should clear up the issue in a few weeks. (If it doesn't I'd see a doctor.) It can dry the hair out a bit, but should fix the fungal issue.
Personally, I also like anti-fungal oils, e.g. peppermint oil, eucalyptus oil or tea tree oil in a carrier oil, like neem oil as an all-around anti-fungal (but neem stinks to high heaven)... and if you've had good experiences oiling your scalp in the past, anti-fungal oils are the ones I'd feel safe using in this situation (but only after a patch-test). HTH! :flower:

[Theobroma]

Is that possible? If that is possible then it would explain a lot.

As explained, I used to leave in my hair conditioner every time I washed my hair - and yes, it was combed through the hair, in direct contact with the scalp.

Could that be the reason my hair has been thinning over the last couple of years?


It absolutely could. I lost 40% of my volume in the 18 months that I did CO. The shedding stopped THE MOMENT i stopped putting conditioner on my scalp, and it never started again.

I'd be careful with scalp oiling as well, because that too makes some people shed handfuls!

[Suzysu]

^ Actually, if you think it's fungal, it should be a relatively easy fix. :) Using anti-fungals regularly (e.g. ketoconazole-based shampoo like Nizoral), leaving it on for a few minutes, really massaging it in before you rinse, should clear up the issue in a few weeks. (If it doesn't I'd see a doctor.) It can dry the hair out a bit, but should fix the fungal issue.
Personally, I also like anti-fungal oils, e.g. peppermint oil, eucalyptus oil or tea tree oil in a carrier oil, like neem oil as an all-around anti-fungal (but neem stinks to high heaven)... and if you've had good experiences oiling your scalp in the past, anti-fungal oils are the ones I'd feel safe using in this situation (but only after a patch-test). HTH! :flower:

Yes, I've used Nizoral twice now - aiming for 3 times a week - probably too early to tell.

Interesting about peppermint oil! You know it was suggested to me on this forum that it was great for hair growth - and now you say that it's all an anti-fungal! It sounds like an all round super-product for hair and I can't believe I'd not heard of it for anything other than soothing tired feet!

I can't wait to try it! I am going to put 5 drops into a tablespoon of coconut oil and massage it on my scalp.

[lapushka]

Suzysu, I have to use harsh shampoos because I have SD (seborrheic dermatitis), and to keep my waves intact, I condition twice after my shampoo and this brings moisture back in my hair. The link to my washing method is in my signature (WCC). I do LOC after as well to seal the moisture in (also in signature).

[Suzysu]

This is very interesting. I wouldn't have thought conditioning twice would make a difference, because once the hair is saturated with conditioner, and then rinsed, can it take any more?

I will definitely try your method as Nizoral is very drying for the hair that's for sure. I like the idea of adding oil as part of the washing process which you also seem to be doing.

Is your seborrheic dermatitis forever - or is it getting better?

[lapushka]

This is very interesting. I wouldn't have thought conditioning twice would make a difference, because once the hair is saturated with conditioner, and then rinsed, can it take any more?

I will definitely try your method as Nizoral is very drying for the hair that's for sure. I like the idea of adding oil as part of the washing process which you also seem to be doing.

Is your seborrheic dermatitis forever - or is it getting better?

If you find *good* conditioners, it does make a difference, it's much like deep conditioning. I leave each of my conditioners in for 2 minutes, BTW.

My SD comes and goes; I can keep it at bay mostly by washing with a regular harsh shampoo (Pantene, or Herbal Essences) and by washing weekly (can't go longer). I especially love the Pantene Aqua Light and it has become one of my Holy Grails.