Does your hair like/dislike products with Behentrimonium chloride?

[AutobotsAttack]

The main products that contain this are conditioners and syrup like serums.
Behentrimonium chloride is a synthetic conditioning agent, as well as a slight PH
adjuster. It gives conditioners that super slippery feeling, but not as heavy as
dimethicone or other silicones, and without all the buildup.

Some conditioners that I've used that have these are:
Herbal Essences products
Infusium 23 products
Garnier products
Aussie products...

My hair really likes this "chemical" I guess you could call it.
It really softens my extra curly new growth so that my relaxed
parts don't experience any breakage and I can stretch my
relaxers a lot longer.

how does your hair react to this ingredient?

[divinedobbie]

My hair doesnt really have a preference towards behentrimonium chloride, but behentrimonium methosulfate makes my hair feel heavenly. I always look for it to be in every one of my conditioners and serums.

[AutobotsAttack]

My hair doesnt really have a preference towards behentrimonium chloride, but behentrimonium methosulfate makes my hair feel heavenly. I always look for it to be in every one of my conditioners and serums.
I knew there was another behentrimonium cousin in that group I just couldnt remember the name. I like the methosulfate one too. It makes my hair super soft as well. I usually look for a combination of the two.

[morrigan*]

I had rosemary conditioner from Avalon organics with this as second ingredient and it made my hair feel like silk.

[lapushka]

Oh gosh, honestly I don't pay that close of attention to the ingredients. Perhaps I really should. I do know that I *love* the Herbal Essences Hello Hydration conditioner. It is an awesome detangler and my Holy Grail conditioner. Maybe it's that ingredient, who knows? :D

[MINAKO]

Too much of the stuff is drying my hair out, i especially try to avoid it in leave ins. For a cleansing condi it's alright.

[missblueeyes]

My hair likes it, it's in my holy grail Desert Essence conditioner. However, I notice that if I only use Desert Essence, my ends tend to get a little dry after 3-4 days and it's definitely the Behentrimonium chloride because I haven't noticed anything like that when I use natural cosmetics that don't use that ingredient. That being said, I like to use my DE products when I want to wear my hair down for a long amount of time because of the bonus slip it provides. I don't think it's a necessity but it's definitely nice to have.

[Groovy Granny]

:applause: Kudos to you for such detailed attention to such matters!

None of that makes any sense to me...never mind even pronouncing it lol

I just checked my silver/joico/ shea products...and what I could manage to even read :p did not contain that.

I used Garnier products for years with good results.

The past 2 years when my silver and curls increased it didn't give my hair enough moisture, so I switched to the products mentioned above.

[meteor]

Yup, my hair loves it. It's a nice, conditioning surfactant. I really like that it's mild and it doesn't build up on me... pretty good. :thumbsup:
I like both behentrimonium chloride and its "cousin" behentrimonium methosulfate, of course... as well as other quaternary cationic surfactants, e.g. cetrimonium bromide, cetrimonium chloride...

If anybody is wondering about how it works on hair, these blogs could be of interest, I think:
http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2009/11/guide-to-using-ingredients.html
http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2011/07/cationic-compounds-in-cosmetics.html

[AutobotsAttack]

Oh gosh, honestly I don't pay that close of attention to the ingredients. Perhaps I really should. I do know that I *love* the Herbal Essences Hello Hydration conditioner. It is an awesome detangler and my Holy Grail conditioner. Maybe it's that ingredient, who knows? :D

Most if not all of the Herbal Essences products have that in them. I absolutely love them.

[AutobotsAttack]

:applause: Kudos to you for such detailed attention to such matters!

None of that makes any sense to me...never mind even pronouncing it lol

I just checked my silver/joico/ shea products...and what I could manage to even read :p did not contain that.

I used Garnier products for years with good results.

The past 2 years when my silver and curls increased it didn't give my hair enough moisture, so I switched to the products mentioned above.

Yea at first I couldn't even pronounce what I was looking at. I think after a while once you see those inegrediemts after a while you kind of get used to seeing them and you can recognize them easier. And maybe your hair got used to those products? I've had to switch many of products because my just didn't care for them any more

[AutobotsAttack]

My hair likes it, it's in my holy grail Desert Essence conditioner. However, I notice that if I only use Desert Essence, my ends tend to get a little dry after 3-4 days and it's definitely the Behentrimonium chloride because I haven't noticed anything like that when I use natural cosmetics that don't use that ingredient. That being said, I like to use my DE products when I want to wear my hair down for a long amount of time because of the bonus slip it provides. I don't think it's a necessity but it's definitely nice to have.

Most definately :) occasionally it dries my ends too so I just lay off of it a bit

[AutobotsAttack]

Too much of the stuff is drying my hair out, i especially try to avoid it in leave ins. For a cleansing condi it's alright.

I use it as a deep conditioning treatment (well the conditioner that contains it). But yea it can be a bit drying.

[Nadine <3]

I have no idea. My hair doesn't really care for garnier or herbal essences so maybe not, but it could be anything. My hair likes tresseme and Suave naturals and vo5

[Groovy Granny]

Yea at first I couldn't even pronounce what I was looking at. I think after a while once you see those inegrediemts after a while you kind of get used to seeing them and you can recognize them easier. And maybe your hair got used to those products? I've had to switch many of products because my just didn't care for them any more

Could be :thumbsup:

[Anje]

As far as my hair is concerned, behentrimonium chloride is pretty good and behentrimonium methylsulfate is fantastic stuff. I vastly prefer both over silicones -- they give me comparable slip but it seems like my hair doesn't dry out after 2-3 days with BTMS the way it does with many silicones.

[Arctic]

How can you guys pin point one ingredient like that, when the products have often well over ten ingredients, sometimes much more, in them?

I always read INCI lists and am moderately interested about these things, and have been sometimes able to make some general deductions, but I would like to learn to make more accurate analysis on what affects my hair and what doesn't.

That being said, I do have a feeling my hair like polyquats, and I am not too fond of silicones.

[AutobotsAttack]

I have no idea. My hair doesn't really care for garnier or herbal essences so maybe not, but it could be anything. My hair likes tresseme and Suave naturals and vo5

My hair likes V05 too :)

[lapushka]

Most if not all of the Herbal Essences products have that in them. I absolutely love them.

That's good to know. I think I'll pay attention to it in my other conditioners!

[AutobotsAttack]

As far as my hair is concerned, behentrimonium chloride is pretty good and behentrimonium methylsulfate is fantastic stuff. I vastly prefer both over silicones -- they give me comparable slip but it seems like my hair doesn't dry out after 2-3 days with BTMS the way it does with many silicones.

Yea I have naturally thin hair, and 'cones just are waaaaaay too drying and heavy.

[meteor]

How can you guys pin point one ingredient like that, when the products have often well over ten ingredients, sometimes much more, in them?

I always read INCI lists and am moderately interested about these things, and have been sometimes able to make some general deductions, but I would like to learn to make more accurate analysis on what affects my hair and what doesn't.

That being said, I do have a feeling my hair like polyquats, and I am not too fond of silicones.

Personally, I just ignore all ingredients after parfum/fragrance and I read only the first 10 ingredients (or less if the fragrance is listed earlier) and compare different products I've tried. :)

Water tends to make up up to 70-80% in shampoo compositions, for example (http://chemistscorner.com/how-shampoos-are-made/), and ingredients at the very bottom are usually stabilizers, pH adjusters, etc... or some are there just for marketing claims (what I call "unicorn dust" ingredients). That said, if you have any allergies, you have to check all the ingredients, of course! And even then, you aren't guaranteed to be safe, since "fragrance" itself can consist of hundreds if not thousands of ingredients, too (which is why people with many allergies often prefer fragrance-free options altogether).

Also, it also helps to remember that according to FDA cosmetic labeling guide (this is only for US, so you might want to check out EU counterpart, Arctic :) ), "ingredients present at a concentration not exceeding 1% may be listed in any order after the listing of the ingredients present at more than 1% in descending order of predominance" (http://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/labeling/regulations/ucm126444.htm#clgb), so ingredients listed after a certain "cut-off" ingredient (maybe after "perfume" in some cases) could be listed in a way that makes the product appear more attractive to consumers - so "unicorn dust" extracts can be listed higher up than their true concentration (if those ingredients are under 1% anyway), which gives more reason to focus on top ingredients instead.

[AutobotsAttack]

Personally, I just ignore all ingredients after parfum/fragrance and I read only the first 10 ingredients (or less if the fragrance is listed earlier) and compare different products I've tried. :)

Water tends to make up up to 70-80% in shampoo compositions, for example (http://chemistscorner.com/how-shampoos-are-made/), and ingredients at the very bottom are usually stabilizers, pH adjusters, etc... or some are there just for marketing claims (what I call "unicorn dust" ingredients). That said, if you have any allergies, you have to check all the ingredients, of course! And even then, you aren't guaranteed to be safe, since "fragrance" itself can consist of hundreds if not thousands of ingredients, too (which is why people with many allergies often prefer fragrance-free options altogether).

Also, it also helps to remember that according to FDA cosmetic labeling guide (this is only for US, so you might want to check out EU counterpart, Arctic :) ), "ingredients present at a concentration not exceeding 1% may be listed in any order after the listing of the ingredients present at more than 1% in descending order of predominance" (http://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/labeling/regulations/ucm126444.htm#clgb), so ingredients listed after a certain "cut-off" ingredient (maybe after "perfume" in some cases) could be listed in a way that makes the product appear more attractive to consumers - so "unicorn dust" extracts can be listed higher up than their true concentration (if those ingredients are under 1% anyway), which gives more reason to focus on top ingredients instead.

Ahhh thats some really interesting info! I didn't know you could pretty much disregard ingredients after "parfum".

[Arctic]

Thanks Meteor, I am familiar with these things you mention, but that was good point that only the first few ingredients are what matters even if the INCI list is long.
As an ex-vegan I've used to reading the whole lists myself, that's another situation all together. I also tend to avoid products with any protein, even if it's low on the list.

I have been recording (on and off, not so much lately) the INCIs of products I use in my blog over the years, but have never been able to pin point with accuracy that my hair likes X and not Y, I think it's often a combination of the ingredients that make a product, and I feel it would be difficult to isolate one specific ingredient. I might have a feeling that my hair might like this or that, and some more wide and general ideas, but I have never been able to find these assumptions to be accurate 100%. Some products work and so don't sometimes without much rhyme and reasons, or so it seems. Maybe I just haven't been paying enough attention. I'd like to learn to really be able to analyse individual ingredients though - not sure if it would make buying products more easier, ha ha, as I already have some limitations to the types of products I tend to buy.

[AutobotsAttack]

Thanks Meteor, I am familiar with these things you mention, but that was good point that only the first few ingredients are what matters even if the INCI list is long.
As an ex-vegan I've used to reading the whole lists myself, that's another situation all together. I also tend to avoid products with any protein, even if it's low on the list.

I have been recording (on and off, not so much lately) the INCIs of products I use in my blog over the years, but have never been able to pin point with accuracy that my hair likes X and not Y, I think it's often a combination of the ingredients that make a product, and I feel it would be difficult to isolate one specific ingredient. I might have a feeling that my hair might like this or that, and some more wide and general ideas, but I have never been able to find these assumptions to be accurate 100%. Some products work and so don't sometimes without much rhyme and reasons, or so it seems. Maybe I just haven't been paying enough attention. I'd like to learn to really be able to analyse individual ingredients though - not sure if it would make buying products more easier, ha ha, as I already have some limitations to the types of products I tend to buy.

Well I definately get your point. Everyone is different though. But I've mainly isolated the first three to four ingredients and just tested out certain products based on what they are composed of. However I mainly can get a feel for products with this certain ingredient by how it feels. Whereas if I have a product with dimethicone being one of the main ingredients it feel almost completely different in my hair. But everyone is different so hat work for me may not always work for someone else.

[Arctic]

I think this thread has re-sparked my interest to start typing to my blog my product ingredients again, it's been a while since I actively did that. Maybe I could see some patterns if I'll be mindful enough! Thanks everyone for the renewed inspiration!

[meteor]

^ Sounds really great, Arctic! :D :thumbsup:
I think keeping notes really helps, especially if the main ingredients are listed in something like spreadsheet format, so one can easily spot which ingredients or combinations of ingredients provide repeated effects, in which products... :)

And you are so right when you say that it's still hard to predict performance. :agree: Even with product dupes/doubles - which were formulated specifically to copy a product, they often don't even perform similarly. The Beauty Brains talked about that here: http://thebeautybrains.com/2015/01/dont-be-duped-by-drugstore-doubles/.
Sometimes it's not even just about combinations of ingredients but the process of how exactly they were mixed together - which comes first, at what temperatures... apparently, this can create differences in product texture and performance easily...
So even with knowing all the ins and outs of every single ingredient on the package, the ultimate test is still just trying the product.

[lapushka]

I keep notes as well, by blogging my wash day every Sunday, with the products I used, and the methods (not that I like to repeat myself), but well... I can keep an eye on my product usage and keep track of things that way. I should maybe keep an eye on the ingredients, but I basically only distinguish between things that have silicones and that don't. That is the biggest "issue" for me. It needs to have silicone!

[Hypnotica]

The Behentrimoniums are my favourites as they are never giving me a build up issue by themselves.

[Hypnotica]

Personally, I just ignore all ingredients after parfum/fragrance and I read only the first 10 ingredients (or less if the fragrance is listed earlier) and compare different products I've tried. :)

Water tends to make up up to 70-80% in shampoo compositions, for example (http://chemistscorner.com/how-shampoos-are-made/), and ingredients at the very bottom are usually stabilizers, pH adjusters, etc... or some are there just for marketing claims (what I call "unicorn dust" ingredients). That said, if you have any allergies, you have to check all the ingredients, of course! And even then, you aren't guaranteed to be safe, since "fragrance" itself can consist of hundreds if not thousands of ingredients, too (which is why people with many allergies often prefer fragrance-free options altogether).

Also, it also helps to remember that according to FDA cosmetic labeling guide (this is only for US, so you might want to check out EU counterpart, Arctic :) ), "ingredients present at a concentration not exceeding 1% may be listed in any order after the listing of the ingredients present at more than 1% in descending order of predominance" (http://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/labeling/regulations/ucm126444.htm#clgb), so ingredients listed after a certain "cut-off" ingredient (maybe after "perfume" in some cases) could be listed in a way that makes the product appear more attractive to consumers - so "unicorn dust" extracts can be listed higher up than their true concentration (if those ingredients are under 1% anyway), which gives more reason to focus on top ingredients instead.

The EU counterpart is pretty much the same as the FDA in this matter. Everything at 1% or less can be ordered in any way you want - except colours that may be listed in the end.

[Arctic]

Ok since these ingredients have gone under the radar for me, and I have only started to pay attention to them, I can only name ATM one conditioner with Behentrimonium Chloride that I have tried. There are probably many more but this is the only one that I currently have at home.

It's Timotei Pure conditioner, aimed for oily hair.


Ingredients

Aqua, Cetearyl Alcohol, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract, Behentrimonium Chloride, Parfum, Sodium Chloride, Maltodextrin, Disodium EDTA, Dipropylene Glycol, PEG-150 Distearate, Lactic Acid, DMDM Hydantoin, Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Geraniol, Hexyl Cinnamal, Limonene, Linalool


Now this is a very cheap conditioner, probably the cheapest I've ever tried, so that might explain something too. But the few times I've used this, it leaves my hair feeling weird, different than I can remember other conditioners leaving my hair feel. At first when hair is still sliiiightly damp, my hair feels amazing; soft, silky and moisturized. It continues feeling sleek and soft after it's dry too, but as soon as few hours have passed my hair starts to feel as if it'd be coated with a very thin film. The film feels sleek, soft and as if sort of oily (not really oily, but can't think of better word), and as if my own heair under the film would be dry. Now my hair is not dry, and it's not possible that I would have shampooed ineffectively, as I used full strength sulphate shampoo on whole lengths of hair and scalp ofcourse too.

It's not really bad how my hair feels, but not ideal either. Not what I'm used to. It's not really silky nor slippery, just somehow weird. I can't think of better description than "oily and dry", yet I know my hair is really not neither. And it's not like build-up oily [in fact I have never had build-up that would manifest with oily hair, but I've seen other's mention this], it's not really oily and my hair looks great and is clean and not build-uppy; I clarify regularly and know how build-up accumulated to a level where it makes my hair behave, well, build-uppy, feels. (Ofcourse almost everything builds up over time, but I mean the level of buildup that starts to cause problems - my level is quite low and I get build-up easily in general.)

I just started to wonder if this feeling might be from Behentrimonium Chloride, or just in general from the combination of ingredients of this conditioner. There are other coating agents used too, I can see.


Anyway, more testing in the future....

[luxurioushair]

Well I don't see that ingredient on my conditioner bottle, but there is "Centrimonium Chloride" and I've encountered no problems...

[meteor]

The EU counterpart is pretty much the same as the FDA in this matter. Everything at 1% or less can be ordered in any way you want - except colours that may be listed in the end.

Thanks a lot, Hypnotica! :blossom: :)


Well I don't see that ingredient on my conditioner bottle, but there is "Centrimonium Chloride" and I've encountered no problems...

Oh yes, they are very similar. :agree: They are both quaternary ammonium salts and belong in the cationic surfactants category with emulsifying, conditioning, anti-static properties.


Ok since these ingredients have gone under the radar for me, and I have only started to pay attention to them, I can only name ATM one conditioner with Behentrimonium Chloride that I have tried. There are probably many more but this is the only one that I currently have at home.

It's Timotei Pure conditioner, aimed for oily hair.




Now this is a very cheap conditioner, probably the cheapest I've ever tried, so that might explain something too. But the few times I've used this, it leaves my hair feeling weird, different than I can remember other conditioners leaving my hair feel. At first when hair is still sliiiightly damp, my hair feels amazing; soft, silky and moisturized. It continues feeling sleek and soft after it's dry too, but as soon as few hours have passed my hair starts to feel as if it'd be coated with a very thin film. The film feels sleek, soft and as if sort of oily (not really oily, but can't think of better word), and as if my own heair under the film would be dry. Now my hair is not dry, and it's not possible that I would have shampooed ineffectively, as I used full strength sulphate shampoo on whole lengths of hair and scalp ofcourse too.

It's not really bad how my hair feels, but not ideal either. Not what I'm used to. It's not really silky nor slippery, just somehow weird. I can't think of better description than "oily and dry", yet I know my hair is really not neither. And it's not like build-up oily [in fact I have never had build-up that would manifest with oily hair, but I've seen other's mention this], it's not really oily and my hair looks great and is clean and not build-uppy; I clarify regularly and know how build-up accumulated to a level where it makes my hair behave, well, build-uppy, feels. (Ofcourse almost everything builds up over time, but I mean the level of buildup that starts to cause problems - my level is quite low and I get build-up easily in general.)

I just started to wonder if this feeling might be from Behentrimonium Chloride, or just in general from the combination of ingredients of this conditioner. There are other coating agents used too, I can see.


Anyway, more testing in the future....

Very interesting, Arctic! :) Please let us know how the future testing goes! :flower: I'm wondering if the effect is created from the combination with Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine (at #3), for example? :hmm: How does your hair like this ingredient? :) I've read some people reporting that "oily but dry" and slightly "filmy", coated feeling from conditioners with this ingredient listed high up... but I don't know... :hmm:

[luxurioushair]

Oh yes, they are very similar. :agree: They are both quaternary ammonium salts and belong in the cationic surfactants category with emulsifying, conditioning, anti-static properties.
Wow, it all sounds so scientific...

[meteor]

^ Well, the idea is that they both have a positive charge :) , which allows them to deposit in areas of negative charge (especially damaged cuticle) - the electrostatic attraction causes cationic surfactant molecules of cetrimonium chloride chloride and behentrimonium chloride (and other quats) to bond to the more negatively-charged hair to create a smoother surface, help hair resist friction (easier detangling), and reduce static after washing with anionic, negatively-charged surfactants in shampoo. The more negatively charged areas of cuticle surface are often the more damaged ones or just very dry.

But I think these 2 articles explain this way better than I can :) :
What is Cetrimonium Chloride? - http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-what-is-cetrimonium-chloride/
http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2012/04/why-is-this-ingredient-in-my-conditioner.html

[lapushka]

Ok since these ingredients have gone under the radar for me, and I have only started to pay attention to them, I can only name ATM one conditioner with Behentrimonium Chloride that I have tried. There are probably many more but this is the only one that I currently have at home.

It's Timotei Pure conditioner, aimed for oily hair.




Now this is a very cheap conditioner, probably the cheapest I've ever tried, so that might explain something too. But the few times I've used this, it leaves my hair feeling weird, different than I can remember other conditioners leaving my hair feel. At first when hair is still sliiiightly damp, my hair feels amazing; soft, silky and moisturized. It continues feeling sleek and soft after it's dry too, but as soon as few hours have passed my hair starts to feel as if it'd be coated with a very thin film. The film feels sleek, soft and as if sort of oily (not really oily, but can't think of better word), and as if my own heair under the film would be dry. Now my hair is not dry, and it's not possible that I would have shampooed ineffectively, as I used full strength sulphate shampoo on whole lengths of hair and scalp ofcourse too.

It's not really bad how my hair feels, but not ideal either. Not what I'm used to. It's not really silky nor slippery, just somehow weird. I can't think of better description than "oily and dry", yet I know my hair is really not neither. And it's not like build-up oily [in fact I have never had build-up that would manifest with oily hair, but I've seen other's mention this], it's not really oily and my hair looks great and is clean and not build-uppy; I clarify regularly and know how build-up accumulated to a level where it makes my hair behave, well, build-uppy, feels. (Ofcourse almost everything builds up over time, but I mean the level of buildup that starts to cause problems - my level is quite low and I get build-up easily in general.)

I just started to wonder if this feeling might be from Behentrimonium Chloride, or just in general from the combination of ingredients of this conditioner. There are other coating agents used too, I can see.


Anyway, more testing in the future....

Didn't you just WCC? Condition twice. That might be it. ;)

Personally I have no issues with WCC, but then my hair is quite dry from the harsh shampooing (and sometimes I get my lengths as well), so I can take the double conditioning without a problem (also because of the longer, dryer lengths).

[Arctic]

Lapushka, yes I did but this wasn't a first time I used this conditioner. I have used it alone with same results.


Meteor to be honest I have no idea how my hair likes or reacts to that ingredient :o I'll really need to spruce up my INCI list documenting and analysing. Interesting that other's have discribed the same feeling - maybe it is Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine instead that caused the feeling. Gotta keep an eye on this! I have been lately trying many more conditioners than is usual for me, as I'm looking for a new HG conditioner, so I might have good opportunitites to test these ingredients further.

As a side note, this was the INCI of my previous HG conditioner which was discontinued. My hair absolutely loved this stuff! I see there is the ingredient Luxorious Hair mentioned.


XZ Lemon HOney Conditioner Ingredients

Aqua
Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride
Stearyl Alcohol
Propylene Glycol
Cetyl Alcohol
Hydroxypropyltrimonium Honey
Cetrimonium Chloride
C10-40 Isoalkylamidopropylethyldimonium Ethosulfate
Citrus Limon (Lemon) Fruit Extract
Ceteareth-20
Palmitamidopropyltrimonium Chloride
Tocopheryl Acetate
Dipropylene Glycol
Phenoxyethanol
Citric Acid
Methylisothiazolinone
Parfum
Limonene
Linalool
Titanium Dioxide
Mica

[lapushka]

Lapushka, yes I did but this wasn't a first time I used this conditioner. I have used it alone with same results.

Oh OK, my bad! :o Maybe it should be reserved for shaving. ;)

[Arctic]

Oh OK, my bad! :o Maybe it should be reserved for shaving. ;)

LOL, yeah my shaving conditioner stash grows and grows :D

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/everyday/using-shaving-cream-and-razor-smiley-emoticon.gif

[meteor]

^ He-he, fun emoticon! :thumbsup: Also, sometimes using those unsuccessful conditioners as the base for deep treatments (e.g. SMTs) or diluted with water and some goodies like aloe for leave-in spritzes helps...

[DollyDagger]

LOL, yeah my shaving conditioner stash grows and grows :D

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/everyday/using-shaving-cream-and-razor-smiley-emoticon.gif


Hey!..where'd this lil dude come from ..lol so cute ! :)

[lunasea]

Interesting, I just went in my bathroom and looked and this stuff is in all of my favorite conditioners. Guess I should pay more attention.