Sorry, I have another hair washing question

[Scarlet3636]

I posted previously about how much shampoo to use, and many of you answered (thank you)! I'm still fighting the tiny white flakes on my scalp. I had a conditioning treatment and blow out at my regular salon (Frederic Fekkai) last week. My stylist said my scalp looks healthy and that I don't have dandruff. I was relieved! But, when I washed my hair at home... tiny white flakes.

So this past weekend, my stylist wasn't available so on a whim I booked at John Barrett for a blowout. Stylist looked at my scalp... it's not dandruff. Got a nice blowout, no flakes.

What on earth am I doing wrong?? I rinse my shampoo for 3 minutes (I time it) and my conditioner for 5 minutes (I also time that).

I'm at a loss! I know this is a really stupid question, but how long do you ladies rinse? I don't use a lot of shampoo; probably about the size of nickel. For reference I have fine/med curly hair. And although I have a lot of it, it's not coarse or super dense.

It seems like after dealing with stress related hair loss over the last three years, and it finally getting back to normal, I've completely forgotten how to care for it

[woodswanderer]

I probably use at 2 teaspoons of shampoo, and that is just used on the scalp. Maybe I use a lot...don't know. I gently scratch my scalp to work it in, then let it sit while I soap up my body and shave the old armpits. Then I gently scratch my scalp while I wash it out. No idea how long to rinse, but I would guess 2 or 3 minutes. I do the same with conditioner in that I apply it and then let it sit while I shave legs. I think I get more benefit from letting products sit a bit, but I don't know for certain.

I've never had dandruff with my routine unless I stretch washes to a whole week. DH gets dandruff, and he used to use medicated Selsun Blue, but now he uses moisturizing shampoo. I think it is Burt's Bees Moisturising Baobab shampoo. Works better for him than the Selsun Blue.

[YvetteVarie]

I was wondering, do you use any other products at home besides the shampoo and conditioner? I find that if I use a gel, I end up with flakes, although I do not have dandruff.

Just a thought

[lapushka]

Do you get the conditioner on your scalp at home vs. in the salon? Might there be a difference there.

[Scarlet3636]

No styling products. Just shampoo and conditioner. While I don't rub the condish into my scalp, I do like to cover from roots to ends.

[lapushka]

And did they do that in the salon, or just from ears down, because if they only did it from ears down and you're doing it up to the root, that may be why!

[Arctic]

I use quite a lot of shampoo by LHC standards, and rinse probably a minute max. I have never timed though, and I suspect it might be even less. I have hair on the thinner and sparser side, and soft water with a shower with good water pressure. Ofcourse my whole hair gets rinsed again when I rinse out conditioner too. That rinsing might take a bit longer than shampoo, as I usually detangle at the same time, and I also want to make sure no conditioner gets to my scalp as it's known to irritate my skin/scalp. I also like to use conditioner higher up than ears (never rub into scalp, just smooth over canopy), because I have lot of wiry hairs and conditioning cuts down frizzing for me.

I used to have permanent dandruff, sometimes it was really bad, like SD level, sometimes better with just small flakes. I was able to pinpoint it that at least some of it was caused by shampoos. Some ingredients of shampoos, but I never learned what exactly. There were few, very few shampoos over the years that magically made the flakes disappear (the SD level periods needed medicated shampoos, but I'm talking about normal market shampoos on my better dandruff periods). One of these shampoos is one I've now been using for years, and to my delight it has been consistently helping me and my old dandruff problems have been staying under control. This is mildly medicated shampoo, containing an ingredient called piroctone olamine, and I believe it is this ingredient that is behind this (what feels to me life changing and miraculous) effect.

The brand I use is Finnish one, called XZ (their chocolate vanilla shampoo) but it's probably not available elsewhere. But There are other shampoos containing piroctone olamine, like the other one of Sebamed shampoos, so it's worth to checking out, if there are few options where you live.

[Jadestorm]

Lapushka may be onto something there! Other than that, the only thing I could think of is the product itself you're using (have you tried different shampoos and conditioners and do you have the same problem with every single one? Perhaps the one in the salon is stronger, which removes buildup and yours is gentler which doesn't remove your buildup and actually adds more). Do you ever do ACV rinses to rid your scalp of buildup? If that gets rid of your 'flakes' than it's very likely it's just buildup. I don't think any amount of rinsing with just water removes buildup very well.

[lapushka]

Yes, perhaps you're using a milder shampoo than the sulfate one they use in the salon? Might be that?

[Anje]

Sometimes, it's as simple as changing shampoos, especially if you're getting little dry skin flakes. Long before joining LHC, I decided to try Aussie brand and had bad flakes halfway through the bottle. (Not to badmouth the brand, but it and my scalp did not get along.) Went back to my dirt cheap shampoo (which I think was ALES-based at the time, is now SLES) and they went away. Sometimes you just need to change products.

[alexis917]

What shampoo/conditioner are you using, exactly? If one has protein ingredients and cones (or one has protein, one has cones....etc), perhaps they are creating the white flakes more often associated with an SMT gone awry?

[lapushka]

Yes I just washed with a Garnier Ultra Doux shampoo this Sunday, that has ALES instead of SLES, and on the sides I've noticed some flakes (SD). I don't have that with harsher formulas. Sometimes you just have to check for ingredients.

[RoseOfClare]

Could you have a different water type than at the salon? I know if I use my mother's well water my scalp gets irritated.

[Nique1202]

It's also possible that it's not dandruff or a reaction to a shampoo at all, just the dead skin cells from your scalp, having got caught up in your hair instead of falling out. Every part of your skin gets dead skin flakes, but mostly we don't notice them (unless we have dry skin) because they fall off. For some people, the dead skin flakes in the scalp don't fall out of the hair without being brushed or massaged or shaken out. I feel like this possibility gets ignored a lot because any kind of flake in the hair looks unnatural, but it could be perfectly normal.

I've had "little white flakes" in my hair as long as I can remember, and not a single dandruff shampoo on the market (I tried Head & Shoulders, T-Gel, Nizoral, everything on the supermarket shelf at some point!) made any dent in it, nor did changing shampoos, because it wasn't dandruff or SD or anything "wrong", just the normal dead skin that wasn't making its way out of my hair on its own because of my hair density. The thing I found helps the most is scalp massage for a couple of minutes every couple of days, especially on wash day. I usually detangle thoroughly then use a ball-tipped brush just on my scalp because the pins loosen the dead skin better, whereas massaging with my fingers just stimulates my greasy sebum and smushes it all back into place.

[meteor]

I posted previously about how much shampoo to use, and many of you answered (thank you)! I'm still fighting the tiny white flakes on my scalp. I had a conditioning treatment and blow out at my regular salon (Frederic Fekkai) last week. My stylist said my scalp looks healthy and that I don't have dandruff. I was relieved! But, when I washed my hair at home... tiny white flakes.

So this past weekend, my stylist wasn't available so on a whim I booked at John Barrett for a blowout. Stylist looked at my scalp... it's not dandruff. Got a nice blowout, no flakes.

What on earth am I doing wrong?? I rinse my shampoo for 3 minutes (I time it) and my conditioner for 5 minutes (I also time that).

I'm at a loss! I know this is a really stupid question, but how long do you ladies rinse? I don't use a lot of shampoo; probably about the size of nickel. For reference I have fine/med curly hair. And although I have a lot of it, it's not coarse or super dense.

It seems like after dealing with stress related hair loss over the last three years, and it finally getting back to normal, I've completely forgotten how to care for it


It's also possible that it's not dandruff or a reaction to a shampoo at all, just the dead skin cells from your scalp, having got caught up in your hair instead of falling out. Every part of your skin gets dead skin flakes, but mostly we don't notice them (unless we have dry skin) because they fall off. For some people, the dead skin flakes in the scalp don't fall out of the hair without being brushed or massaged or shaken out. I feel like this possibility gets ignored a lot because any kind of flake in the hair looks unnatural, but it could be perfectly normal.

^ A million times this! Actually, every single time I had my hair done at a salon I was so impressed with how well they cleansed my scalp that I always ended up buying the same products they used on me ... only to be disappointed with how they worked at home. I find that at salons they wash hair for much longer and more thoroughly... that might have something to do with it.

To answer your general question, I use about 2 teaspoons of shampoo, and normally dilute it in a separate bottle to make it easier to reach all the scalp. I rinse and repeat (but not very thoroughly the second time). And I rinse for a couple minutes... I should probably do it for much longer, but by that time I want to be done with the shower already, and I still have conditioning/treatment step to do. :doh: :lol:

[lapushka]

I divide and conquer. I lean forward, then my mom globs on a bit of shampoo on the back of my head, another glob goes in front (top of my head), and one more glob divided for both sides. So 3 globs in total (sometimes the lengths get some shampoo too), sudsed up then rinsed half-heartedly, and sudsed back up for another "wash". It gets it all off. Sometimes I have lingering scales (SD) when it acts up some, but this just washes it all clean. So far harsh sulfate shampoos have worked well for me, and I haven't needed Nizoral in... quite a while!

[Scarlet3636]

I really appreciate everyone's answers!

I have been using Ouidad Clear and Gentle shampoo for some time now. I'm trying to trace back to when the flaking started and I think it started with using Rusk Thickr conditioner. there are some preservative in it that can cause scalp sensitivities (so I've read) if it's left on the hair. Thinking back, I recall that after I rinsed, the top of my head kind of burned a little. Not raging pain or anything, but there was definitely a mild burning sensation. Prior to this conditioner, I hadn't ha itching or flakes like this in about 15 years! I also have the Curl Quencher shampoo (it has less plant oil) and I may try that the next time I shampoo. Both have ALES, and we have gotten along fine in the past! :)

I then moved on to Bed Head's Maniac Moisture... now I find out that DMDM Hydantoin can also cause scalp sensitivities. There's also a lot of food coloring in it. Both times that I used it, I felt like my hair was just COATED afterwards. It just did not feel clean. It was kind of sticky and hard to get my hands through at the roots. I could definitely feel product.

I'm only guessing that these might be the culprits. I threw the Rusk out, and the Bed Head is going out tonight!

Perhaps I just have to give my scalp a little bit of time to regulate itself and "calm down" so to speak. I may go back to Bumble and bumble's Super Rich Conditioner. It has dimethicone in it (I'm not a fan), but i had no adverse reactions when using it. I so wish they would bring back their brilliant Leave In/Rinse Out conditioner! It was just a good basic conditioner without a lot of "junk" in it!

[Knifegill]

As a dandruff and scalp-chunking machine without interventions, I've finally settled on a routine that is working. For now.

I scritch and finger comb a ton just before washing to get as much scalp off as I can. (daily scritch, absolute must, wash day or not - and I only wash about every 5 days) Then a diluted quick wash with bronner's mixed with tea tree oil, then green tea mixed with cocoa powder, and then AVC and cold water to finish. This keeps away any noticeable druff for a good three days. By days 4 through whenever I wash, I go to the no-wash technique minus preening and heavy BBB'ing, but often light BBB to spread my oils and remove the druff. All those teas and oils seem to help a TON. I can't really even call myself dandruff boy anymore.

[Arctic]

As a dandruff and scalp-chunking machine without interventions, I've finally settled on a routine that is working. For now.

I scritch and finger comb a ton just before washing to get as much scalp off as I can. (daily scritch, absolute must, wash day or not - and I only wash about every 5 days) Then a diluted quick wash with bronner's mixed with tea tree oil, then green tea mixed with cocoa powder, and then AVC and cold water to finish. This keeps away any noticeable druff for a good three days. By days 4 through whenever I wash, I go to the no-wash technique minus preening and heavy BBB'ing, but often light BBB to spread my oils and remove the druff. All those teas and oils seem to help a TON. I can't really even call myself dandruff boy anymore.

Great to hear you have found a working routine which your scalp agrees with!

What does the cocoa powder do for your hair/scalp, if I may ask? This is the first time I've heared it used in this form, and got curious!

[Knifegill]

It coats my hair in a light, waxy layer that makes it very unlikely to tangle. It also seems to hold moisture in the strands and add fullness and shine. After going back and forth a few times between tea-only and tea+ cocoa powder, I'm settled on keeping it. My hair is medium-coarse and porous, though, so it may not work for everyone. I just brew one cup of tea with 5 teabags, remove and squeeze out the bags, and then add about a tablespoon of cocoa powder, stir in. Stir again after it cools a bit, but apply warm. Leave 5 minutes, rinse warm, then rinse cool to set. Keep rinsing a minute, you don't want much left, just a little. Non-porous hair, for all I know, will just slough it all off in the rinse.

I started using shampoo again mainly to get the caffeine to my roots.

Google "Cocoa hair mask" for starters. I used to make it like a heavy mud and plaster it on, but I've realized I do it too often for that kind of application, so now I just slightly thicken the tea with the cocoa and pour carefully to massage it in all over...

[Arctic]

It coats my hair in a light, waxy layer that makes it very unlikely to tangle. It also seems to hold moisture in the strands and add fullness and shine. After going back and forth a few times between tea-only and tea+ cocoa powder, I'm settled on keeping it. My hair is medium-coarse and porous, though, so it may not work for everyone. I just brew one cup of tea with 5 teabags, remove and squeeze out the bags, and then add about a tablespoon of cocoa powder, stir in. Stir again after it cools a bit, but apply warm. Leave 5 minutes, rinse warm, then rinse cool to set. Keep rinsing a minute, you don't want much left, just a little. Non-porous hair, for all I know, will just slough it all off in the rinse.

I started using shampoo again mainly to get the caffeine to my roots.

Thanks, that sounds interesting! Maybe you could start a thread about it in the recipe board, so more people would find it? Now that I think of it, I have seen chocolate shampoos and conditioners being sold out there (in fact I myself have been using chocolate vanilla shampoo for years :p), so you are probably on to something!

[Scarlet3636]

I've never heard of cocoa being used in that way! That's really interesting!

Everyone's advice has been so helpful. So, here's my next question: how do you make sure your hair completely wet (to the roots) before you apply shampoo?

[ositarosita]

I use too much, probably a silver dollar sized amount of shampoo and I rinse for twice as long as I lather.

[Arctic]

I've never heard of cocoa being used in that way! That's really interesting!

Everyone's advice has been so helpful. So, here's my next question: how do you make sure your hair completely wet (to the roots) before you apply shampoo?

How thick hair do you have? LOL. This is a non-issue with my hairtype, and it is hard to imagine what it's like to have such thick (and non-porous? and curly?) hair you can't be sure if your scalp is wet :) My hair is wet all the way to the scalp few seconds after I step under the shower.


You might have luck with sectioning your hair into smaller sections, or even braiding those sections. Maybe 2-4 sections would be a good number to start testing what would work for you.

[Aurum]

I actually have that problem too. ^^ My hair is by no means ultra-thick, yet when I step under the shower, it's hard to get my entire scalp wet (especially the underside).

[Arctic]

That's interesting! I bet there are multiple variable at work, then. Thickness, denseness, curliness, porosity, products used, water quality (hard/soft), shower pressure...

[lostchyld]

how do you make sure your hair completely wet (to the roots) before you apply shampoo?

I have pretty dense hair and it will just slough off water if I don't get in like I'm rinsing my hair before I shampoo. I basically massage my head as though I'm applying shampoo before I shampoo, then shampoo and rinse as though I'm applying shampoo. Otherwise the water won't get in where it needs to be to rinse effectively. I rinse for a minute or two, but I'm also currently at a long pixie. (And still have trouble getting my roots wet)

I also have (self diagnosed) eczema and I get huge flakes and itchy with certain products, including the shampoo/conditioner my current stylist uses. Currently, my only sort of safe product is Suave Naturals Cherry Blossom shampoo and conditioner. With the Suave, I just get little flakes that suggest I missed a little while rinsing, with other stuff, I get flakes that look like my scalp is peeling off.

[Nique1202]

I've never heard of cocoa being used in that way! That's really interesting!

Everyone's advice has been so helpful. So, here's my next question: how do you make sure your hair completely wet (to the roots) before you apply shampoo?

I have a handheld shower head and it has a "massage" setting that basically forces all the water out in a tight thick stream (like you'd get from a hose but much stronger) and that's what I use to wet and to rinse my hair all the way down to the roots. They're easy to install yourself and I don't even have to rinse for longer than 30 seconds for the whole length with it, and I have quite thick and densely spaced hair.

[henné]

I dilute. I squeeze some indeterminate amount into a plastic cup and then top it off with water ... mix it with a finger and then pour it all over my head beginning with the back, sides top of my head and then the front ... I let it sit on for a little while as my scalp is rather sensitive. That has worked like a charm for me for years now, but now, 3 months post partum, my scalp is starting to act all crazy again, so I'm thinking of oiling my scalp and also using some chamomile and a very effective natural dandruff shampoo that I've used some years ago (wonder if it still works, it's the same bottle, haha).

For me, the flakes were really just dry and irritated scalp, so I had to find mild ways of washing my hair ...

[Scarlet3636]

I just ordered one from Sprite!

[Knifegill]

I cup my hand at the base of my skull to form a little pool and then force it onto my head. The top of my head gets wet easily, but the back and sides take a little pressure.

I can't use the pulse setting on my shower head, makes a total mess, water everywhere.

[Mainesongbird]

I use kinda a lot of shampoo and I let it sit a while, then rinse for maybe a minute then put the conditioner all over, even on scalp and roots. I only wash once a week, but my hair is fine and thick. I do use a sulfate shampoo, my hair likes it.

[lapushka]

I also have (self diagnosed) eczema and I get huge flakes and itchy with certain products, including the shampoo/conditioner my current stylist uses. Currently, my only sort of safe product is Suave Naturals Cherry Blossom shampoo and conditioner. With the Suave, I just get little flakes that suggest I missed a little while rinsing, with other stuff, I get flakes that look like my scalp is peeling off.

Are you sure it's not SD? In that case Nizoral shampoo should take care of it. :)

[Scarlet3636]

I put some organic rosehip oil on at my temples last night (that's where it's been really dry). It was soooo much better this morning.