My thoughts about hair loss from conditioner or oil on scalp.

[Wusel]

I started researching and observing my hair loss because I can't believe that it's really possible that any conditioner or oil put on scalp can make your hair fall out.
I believe that oils are healthy for the scalp but I was asking myself why do they make me loose more hair?
I think it's not really hair loss but that oils and conditioners loosen the hairs that would fall out anyway during the following days so that it looks like conditioner or oil is the culprit but it's not.
It's more like oil or conditioner clean the scalp from almost fallen out, dead hairs, I think.
What I've experienced on myself is that when I use oil or conditioner on my scalp I have a massive shed of 100-200 hairs right after and during the wash plus even more while my hair dries but the following days it's a lot less, like about 10-15 hairs in the morning and 10-20 more during the day and in the evening. So, in total the hair loss per week is the same because when I don't use conditioner or oil on my scalp I have an average hair loss of 60-90 hairs per day and around 100 on wash day.
What do you think about this?
I've read some posts about this in different threads but I thought, it's important to make a thread only about this.

[lapushka]

Nice theory, but I don't think it's true that it's hairs that would've come out eventually. It is well documented on this site, several girls lost a lot of circumference from CO-washing (and that probably goes for oilings as well), so I wouldn't take it so lightly. :)

[Wusel]

Nice theory, but I don't think it's true that it's hairs that would've come out eventually. It is well documented on this site, several girls lost a lot of circumference from CO-washing (and that probably goes for oilings as well), so I wouldn't take it so lightly. :)

Yes, I've read about this and that's why I stopped using it on my scalp but I think CO-washing is again something different because you don't clean your scalp properly which, I think, can cause hair loss but I meant the hair loss from C and O when you clean your scalp with sulphs and then put conditioner or oil on it. I've experienced that I shed when I don't clean enough with harsh sulphs so CO isn't for me and maybe that's what makes CO so thinning? And not the conditioner? I hope you understand what I mean :)

[Wusel]

Nice theory, but I don't think it's true that it's hairs that would've come out eventually. It is well documented on this site, several girls lost a lot of circumference from CO-washing (and that probably goes for oilings as well), so I wouldn't take it so lightly. :)

Plus, what I've researched is that you get buildup on your scalp from CO-washing and the buildup clogs the hair bulbs or something... I don't remember, need to search again.

[lapushka]

CO-washing gets the scalp pretty clean - don't believe the myths (I'd look into the CO-washing thread and check with the regular users who find this method successful).

[Wusel]

CO-washing gets the scalp pretty clean - don't believe the myths (I'd look into the CO-washing thread and check with the regular users who find this method successful).

Yes, I'm reading already :)

[Wusel]

Nice theory, but I don't think it's true that it's hairs that would've come out eventually. It is well documented on this site, several girls lost a lot of circumference from CO-washing (and that probably goes for oilings as well), so I wouldn't take it so lightly. :)

You know, what really annoys me is that I don't know or don't understand (I hate not knowing or not understanding something :D ) why something that is healthy for the scalp can make hair fall out. Good conditioners are full of good ingredients and oils are often even good to fight dandruff and itchy scalp so WHY? It's not logical. That's why I can't believe that it's really so.

[Arctic]

^ Conditioners are developed for hair not for scalp (though some people can, with no problems, for example CO-wash), and oils are not good for all skin types, mine for example. I get agressive acne and infection from oils.

Your theories are actually nothing new, and they have been brought up over the years every now and then. I'm not saying this to dimish your thought processes, it's a good thing you think about things through and try to come up with theories and possible solutions. In fact it's a very good thing!

I think the thing is, that there is no universal truths, no method or ingredient that works for every body. We are all different. Some scalps like oils and/or conditoners, some are indifferent, and some get negative reactions from them. If your scalp does not like them, then I would simply not use them. It's not different than if a washing method or shampoo X or product Y would not work for you.

I agree with Lapushka, that for some people, the hair loss from oils/conditioners is a very real thing- If you would oil daily and end up loosing 200 hairs every time, it would put a dent into your thickness eventually. Whereas if you stop oiling and lose 20 hairs per day, this would keep your current thickness.


Just my 2 cents.

[lapushka]

Yep, that's why we say YMMV (your mileage may vary), it might be different for you. That's why there's so much experimenting going on with different methods, and what's good for one person might not be good for the other. The key thing is to stick with what works for you. I'd not question the why's so much, why something isn't working. It just is the way it is. Sometimes that happens. I'd just then move on to another method.

It's not bad that you think about it, though. ;)

[Wusel]

My university professor said about me that I'm a sponge-student. I want to absorb all knowledge and everything I don't know like a sponge absorbs water. :D
It's always annoying for me to accept that there's something I don't understand or that something simply is like it is for no reason. Or a reason that isn't logical. Or an effect that isn't logical.
So, I'd like to know what conditioners or oils do to the hair bulb that it decides to let the hair go. It's not logical that this happens because conditioners and oils are not acids and there are not the same ingredients in them like in depilatory creams :D

[Arctic]

You know I doubt you'll get scientific answers here at LHC. We are mostly just regular folks, and while some of our members are scientists or have knack for that sort of thing, I don't know if anyone is specialized on hair/scalp.

Why I mentioned that the subject has been discussed many times before, was to highlight that no aswer has been found or no consesus has been achive about the whys.

ETA: If there would be answers, there wouldn't maybe be the Wen scandal either, and they would have been able to formulate their product so, that it wouldn't cause thinning on some people.

Maybe send a question to Wendy at Scienc-y hair blog?


ETA: In my own case, I belive it's my acne prone, sensitive skin, and oily in itself scalp/skin and perhaps SD tendencies (not diagnosed) that cause oils and conditioners react badly with my skin. I can't remember if I got excessive shedding, but I can say for my skin oils and such are not good, even if they are touted as wonderful, natural miracle products. (My hair did like oils though, but even when not applied near scalp the oil travelled up and caused problems; I still use conditioner on hair, as long as I keep it off of my scalp it is fine.)

[Wusel]

You know I doubt you'll get scientific answers here at LHC. We are mostly just regular folks, and while some of our members are scientists or have knack for that sort of thing, I don't know if anyone is specialized on hair/scalp.

Why I mentioned that the subject has been discussed many times before, was to highlight that no aswer has been found or no consesus has been achive about the whys.

Maybe send a question to Wendy at Scienc-y hair blog?


ETA: In my own case, I belive it's my acne prone, sensitive skin, and oily in itself scalp/skin and perhaps SD tendencies (not diagnosed) that cause oils and conditioners react badly with my skin. I can't remember if I got excassive shedding, but I can say for my skin oils and such are not good, even if they are touted as wonderful, natural miracle products. (My hair did like oils though, but even when not applied near scalp the oil travelled up and caused problems; I still use conditioner on hair, as long as I keep it off of my scalp it is fine.)

Thank you. :) I don't know Wendy's blog but I ask her :)
In my case it's only the scalp. Oils on my face are wonderful so, I don't understand it. The skin on my scalp isn't much different from the skin on my face... VERY confusing. :brainbleach:

[Arctic]

http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/

I think she sometimes answers reader questions, so I'd give it a go! BTW it's a nice blog, lot of detailed information about hair.

[Wusel]

http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/

I think she sometimes answers reader questions, so I'd give it a go! BTW it's a nice blog, lot of detailed information about hair.

Thank you!!! :) :) :) That's something for me and I didn't know about it! :) I'm reading! :) :) :)

[flickm]

My hair seems to have grown better with no extra visible hair loss with peppermint EO, yet one application of bringraj brought out loads of hairs - I'm now scared to use the bringraj. So different oils seem to react differently, and presumably so also from person to person. I'm no expert, this is supposition but seems logical.

[lapushka]

I only use oil on the ends of my hair, just like a serum. I can't use most of them on the scalp (SD) and I have oily hair, so I'm not going to go there either. And CO-washing didn't work out for me for the same reasons (too oily, and SD). I didn't see more hair loss, but I don't think I paid close enough attention. :o

[Deborah]

I CO washed for many years with no hair loss, so it certainly is not hair loss inducing for all. I also went 22 months with water only washing, and did not lose hair thickness then either. Plus MANY on this list regularly oil their scalps to INCREASE their thickness, with varying degrees of success. Over many years, oil use has proven to be very positive for many of our list members.

It may be that some attribute loss of thickness to the use of oil when in fact their hair loss may well actually be caused by other factors.

[Nique1202]

I think it's more likely that mild sensitivity to certain compounds on scalps is quite common, especially since scalps aren't naturally exposed to much in the way of allergens except what's in our shampoos and conditioners. Plant oils aren't just one kind of molecule, there can be dozens or hundreds of different kinds of chemicals and aromatics in a plant oil, and I can't remember the last time I saw a conditioner that didn't have some kind of plant extract or another.

[jeanniet]

I'd agree it's probably individual sensitivities. Obviously CO washing does clean the scalp just fine for a lot of people. Not everyone who COs shampoos regularly. I've used conditioner on my scalp for decades. But it could also be that in some cases the hair lss is attributed to oils or conditioners and it's something else entirely.

[meteor]

I think it's more likely that mild sensitivity to certain compounds on scalps is quite common, especially since scalps aren't naturally exposed to much in the way of allergens except what's in our shampoos and conditioners. Plant oils aren't just one kind of molecule, there can be dozens or hundreds of different kinds of chemicals and aromatics in a plant oil, and I can't remember the last time I saw a conditioner that didn't have some kind of plant extract or another.

^ I'm inclined to agree with this. :agree:

If there is no sensitivity to the specific oil, then Wusel, your theory (in the original post) matches my own personal experience with using hair oils on scalp and some other people I've talked to, as well. (First couple times massive hairfall, then it goes down dramatically but only if scalp massages are done regularly, without long breaks). I'll have to leave it at that, though, because I have way more questions than answers on the effects of scalp oiling myself. :lol:

Suffice it to say this is a standard warning during Ayurvedic champi massages: immediate temporary increase in hair fall followed by reduced hair fall due to stronger roots. How true that claim is - I really don't know. :hmm:

Interestingly, I've actually heard similar reports from people doing BBB scalp massages or simply scalp massages with a bit water or no product at all, so it could be even due to simple root stimulation maybe?

[ravenreed]

I successfully CO-wash and lose less hair than when I shampoo. However, any oil on my scalp makes me shed like a wildebeest. YMMV.

[Alien Girl]

I've noticed I lose more hair from oiling my hair if I start from the ends and work up to scalp. I know why though, it's because starting from the bottom, the hair gets stiff and once I work up to the top, I'm working around trying to get all around my scalp and being a bit too rough on the stiff hair (slight tugging occurs.)

Now, I don't really put too much oil on my scalp, and when I do, I start at the scalp then work my way to the bottom.

I don't ever really condition my scalp, only to soften the root hairs to help get oil out of it.
I agree that conditioner was made for HAIR, not the scalp, and some people's scalps won't react good to it.
Also, some people may not be rinsing their scalp enough and leading to build-up.

[spidermom]

I've done a lot of reading about hair because it interests me (obviously). Shedding hair is a whole process that starts with cessation of growth, followed by shrinkage of the root, then falling out because the root is too shriveled to hold the hair in the follicle. I can conceive of no mechanism whereby the root is going to shrink suddenly and cause the hair to fall out because of conditioner or oil on the scalp. I believe it's other factors that people aren't taking into consideration because those factors occurred in the past.

[ravenreed]

I am going to have to disagree. You are talking about a normal shed cycle but that doesn't mean that it can't be affected by all sorts of things. It is really obvious when there is 3 to 4 times as much hair left on the brush as normal, which is what happens when I brush my hair after scalp oiling. I brush my hair several times a day normally. I am not shedding that much as any one brushing except if I have scalp oiled. I only scalp oil a couple of times a year so it would very unlikely that some other random thing is happening right at that exact time too.

[Silverbrumby]

I'm slightly different in that immediately after scalp oiling i lose more hair and then days later my scalp gets hot and itchy in spots before i then shed a massive amount. Ive lost up to 1/2 inch experimenting here. The Monstat cream rubbed in affected my hair terribly.

I am going to have to disagree. You are talking about a normal shed cycle but that doesn't mean that it can't be affected by all sorts of things. It is really obvious when there is 3 to 4 times as much hair left on the brush as normal, which is what happens when I brush my hair after scalp oiling. I brush my hair several times a day normally. I am not shedding that much as any one brushing except if I have scalp oiled. I only scalp oil a couple of times a year so it would very unlikely that some other random thing is happening right at that exact time too.

[Wusel]

I've done a lot of reading about hair because it interests me (obviously). Shedding hair is a whole process that starts with cessation of growth, followed by shrinkage of the root, then falling out because the root is too shriveled to hold the hair in the follicle. I can conceive of no mechanism whereby the root is going to shrink suddenly and cause the hair to fall out because of conditioner or oil on the scalp. I believe it's other factors that people aren't taking into consideration because those factors occurred in the past.

My thinking.

[lapushka]

My thinking.

Yes but you can't discount all those experiences people have, and it's not all from something that "happened in the past" or because of a seasonal shed or something like that. There are people here who lost a lot of their circ from just CO-washing and they didn't do anything else differently. What about those people? I suppose that didn't happen. :rolleyes:

Shedding from CO-washing and oil is *real* - it happens. It's always YMMV. Not some certitude.

[Nique1202]

I've done a lot of reading about hair because it interests me (obviously). Shedding hair is a whole process that starts with cessation of growth, followed by shrinkage of the root, then falling out because the root is too shriveled to hold the hair in the follicle. I can conceive of no mechanism whereby the root is going to shrink suddenly and cause the hair to fall out because of conditioner or oil on the scalp. I believe it's other factors that people aren't taking into consideration because those factors occurred in the past.

This is why I think it's about some kind of sensitivity or mild allergy, even if it's just in the scalp and the same oil/substance could be used elsewhere on the skin just fine. I have a contact dermatitis trigger (band-aid glue, of all things) that ONLY reacts on the inside of my thighs and arms but the outside doesn't react at all, so it seems reasonable that the scalp could have a localized reaction too.

[meteor]

I've done a lot of reading about hair because it interests me (obviously). Shedding hair is a whole process that starts with cessation of growth, followed by shrinkage of the root, then falling out because the root is too shriveled to hold the hair in the follicle. I can conceive of no mechanism whereby the root is going to shrink suddenly and cause the hair to fall out because of conditioner or oil on the scalp. I believe it's other factors that people aren't taking into consideration because those factors occurred in the past.

That's very true. :agree: (Barring extreme stress, when hair can prematurely enter the telogen/resting phase.)

However, does anybody know if there is also a mechanism that makes hair easier to pull out when wet/smothered in oil? I mean, probably only the hair in the telogen (resting phase of the hair follicle) - sort of making it easier for that hair (about to be shed) to actually shed?
I've noticed hair is just easier to pull out when wet, with washes and oiling.

Normally, I don't think things like this should affect the actual ponytail circumference (unless it's an individual sensitivity/reaction issue that was mentioned earlier and I agree with wholeheartedly). There are just so many millions of people around the world (Indians come to mind, for example) who have been practicing regular oil scalp massages as part of hygiene for hundreds of years that it seems that, by now, we would see some serious data as evidence, if it truly affected thickness negatively in the long run, maybe? :hmm:

But yeah, it would be so great if we had some research done on this question! :)

[HintOfMint]

Acidity and bacterial imbalances could theoretically affect shedding, and both can be altered through topical substances.

In any case, I don't think it's right to take the very real experiences of those who shed from CO or other LHC-popular methods and say it's all in their head or they're just doing it all wrong.

[meteor]

^ :agree: Yes, oils definitely affect scalp's normal flora, and that's important for scalp's health. Seborrheic Dermatitis, just to give one example, is linked to Malassezia fungus, and most known species of Malassezia are lipid-dependent, they feed off sebum and there is evidence that they also feed off plant oils rich in oleic acid (the ones that don't have anti-fungal properties, though), and yes, if left untreated, SD can be associated with increased hairfall.

[meteor]

^ Oops, I forgot to leave a couple links in case somebody is interested in looking into Malassezia / oils / scalp health connection more in depth:
Three etiologic facets of dandruff and seborrheic dermatitis: Malassezia fungi, sebaceous lipids, and individual sensitivity - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16382685
The role of sebaceous gland activity and scalp microfloral metabolism in the etiology of seborrheic dermatitis and dandruff - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16382662
Malassezia globosa and restricta: breakthrough understanding of the etiology and treatment of dandruff and seborrheic dermatitis through whole-genome analysis - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18004291

[bonbon58]

Thank you for the articles, meteor! Good to see you airways citing pubmed articles :o

I think scalp oiling and hair falling out depends heavily on the individual skin. I probably have seborrhetic dermatitis. If I oil my scalp, or even if i don't oil but use a shampoo that's too weak, massive clumps of hair falls out! (TMI) in addition, when my hair dries and I scratch my head, I can count on getting yucky white stuff under my fingernails (this happens even right after washing) as well as multiple huge pimples on my scalp that are extremely itchy and take a long time to go away. (/TMI) I would never even imagine putting oils on my scalp ever again... Except for essential oils diluted in water. Even my face does not tolerate oil; once i tried using a brand name oil cleanser and it gave me milia (tiny white pimples)!! But I can imagine scalp oiling to be beneficial for people with dry scalps :shrug:

[memeow]

This is an interesting discussion. I've always thought the shedding is due to oil clogging pores, which causes stress and makes the hair fall out, but now that I read through all these possible explanations I realize I have no idea! I do experience more shedding if I stretch washes beyond 3 or 4 days, and I've never tried putting oil directly on my scalp because I do worry about it!

[omega]

I have a contact dermatitis trigger (band-aid glue, of all things) that ONLY reacts on the inside of my thighs and arms but the outside doesn't react at all, so it seems reasonable that the scalp could have a localized reaction too.
I experienced same issue with off brand band-aids. Dermatologist suggested I just try a different brand.

[yahirwaO.o]

Well I tried co washing the other day, hair came out well and my shedding wasnt bad, still my two hair enemies are hair loss and stringy ends, so Ill stick to diluted shampoo and aloe vera drops so I have no problems.

And oiling scalp is plain horrible. Shed hair everywhere and shampoin twice to get the whole stuff out doesnt help at all.
Yeah oily clogged pores can totally exacerbate loss!!!!

[Silverbrumby]

Good articles Metor. I definitely have issues with this.

[ravenreed]

Try coating your hair with conditioner, letting it set a wee bit, and then shampooing. For some reason conditioner removes excess oil better than shampoo. It is one reason that CO method works.


Well I tried co washing the other day, hair came out well and my shedding wasnt bad, still my two hair enemies are hair loss and stringy ends, so Ill stick to diluted shampoo and aloe vera drops so I have no problems.

And oiling scalp is plain horrible. Shed hair everywhere and shampoin twice to get the whole stuff out doesnt help at all.
Yeah oily clogged pores can totally exacerbate loss!!!!

[ravenreed]

Here's the thing. I had no idea that my shed rate from shampoo was unusually high until I switched to CO method and saw a dramatic decrease. I have used shampoo my whole life and didn't think about it at all. It is possible that scalp oilers in those countries are shedding more than they might otherwise, but because they have always done it, it just seems normal to them. After all, I wasn't losing so much hair that I was balding or anything, and my hair grows quickly enough that more just filled in anything lost. However, I have far fewer wispies than I used to, which supports my suspicions about shampooing.



That's very true. :agree: (Barring extreme stress, when hair can prematurely enter the telogen/resting phase.)

However, does anybody know if there is also a mechanism that makes hair easier to pull out when wet/smothered in oil? I mean, probably only the hair in the telogen (resting phase of the hair follicle) - sort of making it easier for that hair (about to be shed) to actually shed?
I've noticed hair is just easier to pull out when wet, with washes and oiling.

Normally, I don't think things like this should affect the actual ponytail circumference (unless it's an individual sensitivity/reaction issue that was mentioned earlier and I agree with wholeheartedly). There are just so many millions of people around the world (Indians come to mind, for example) who have been practicing regular oil scalp massages as part of hygiene for hundreds of years that it seems that, by now, we would see some serious data as evidence, if it truly affected thickness negatively in the long run, maybe? :hmm:

But yeah, it would be so great if we had some research done on this question! :)

[Wusel]

This is an interesting discussion. I've always thought the shedding is due to oil clogging pores, which causes stress and makes the hair fall out, but now that I read through all these possible explanations I realize I have no idea! I do experience more shedding if I stretch washes beyond 3 or 4 days, and I've never tried putting oil directly on my scalp because I do worry about it!

Exactly! I have no idea too. But what I don't believe is that C or O can make hair fall out. There has to be another reason for shedding after CO or ScalpO.

It's the same for me with the washing. The more I stretch the washes the more I shed. It's day 3 now and I shed 23 in the morning while combing and braiding instead of 10/15 like on day 1 and 2. When I stretch more and don't wash today, I'm sure I shed 30 tomorrow in the morning and it goes up the more I stretch.

[Panth]

Exactly! I have no idea too. But what I don't believe is that C or O can make hair fall out. There has to be another reason for shedding after CO or ScalpO.

It's the same for me with the washing. The more I stretch the washes the more I shed. It's day 3 now and I shed 23 in the morning while combing and braiding instead of 10/15 like on day 1 and 2. When I stretch more and don't wash today, I'm sure I shed 30 tomorrow in the morning and it goes up the more I stretch.

I'm sorry, but I really don't get your logic.

Your belief is (if I'm correct) that it's impossible for conditioner or oil applied to the scalp to cause hair to fall out because the hair cycle says that it takes weeks for a hair to shift from "ending anagen" to "restarting next anagen and shedding the old hair". Is that right? And thus you think it's impossible for anything topically applied to cause a hair to fall out in a matter of days (unless it would have shed within a few days anyway).

...yet you have no problem with believing that stretching washes can cause hair to fall out ... which has the same logic-defying notion that something can cause hairs to shed within a one-day-to-one-week timescale even if they weren't about to shed naturally.

Am I missing something?

[Wusel]

I'm sorry, but I really don't get your logic.

Your belief is (if I'm correct) that it's impossible for conditioner or oil applied to the scalp to cause hair to fall out because the hair cycle says that it takes weeks for a hair to shift from "ending anagen" to "restarting next anagen and shedding the old hair". Is that right? And thus you think it's impossible for anything topically applied to cause a hair to fall out in a matter of days (unless it would have shed within a few days anyway).

...yet you have no problem with believing that stretching washes can cause hair to fall out ... which has the same logic-defying notion that something can cause hairs to shed within a one-day-to-one-week timescale even if they weren't about to shed naturally.

Am I missing something?

No. You're not missing anything. As I said, it's not logical = NO LOGIC AT ALL = and I have NO IDEA why and what happens there. That's the chief purpose of this thread. :) Talking about strange, illogical hair behaviour and maybe one day after 100.000 posts come to some kind of a consent or sudden epiphany. :)

[lapushka]

I think scalp oiling and hair falling out depends heavily on the individual skin. I probably have seborrhetic dermatitis. If I oil my scalp, or even if i don't oil but use a shampoo that's too weak, massive clumps of hair falls out!

I'm the same! I have SD and can't use oil on my scalp, or CO. CO was better, but it didn't resolve my oil and so it wasn't good for my SD either.

[lapushka]

No. You're not missing anything. As I said, it's not logical = NO LOGIC AT ALL = and I have NO IDEA why and what happens there. That's the chief purpose of this thread. :) Talking about strange, illogical hair behaviour and maybe one day after 100.000 posts come to some kind of a consent or sudden epiphany. :)

Some things don't have to be "logical" to occur, and if you discount that occurrence, then what? *That's* not logical IMO.

[renia22]

^ :agree: Yes, oils definitely affect scalp's normal flora, and that's important for scalp's health. Seborrheic Dermatitis, just to give one example, is linked to Malassezia fungus, and most known species of Malassezia are lipid-dependent, they feed off sebum and there is evidence that they also feed off plant oils rich in oleic acid (the ones that don't have anti-fungal properties, though), and yes, if left untreated, SD can be associated with increased hairfall.

What meteor said. ^^the malassezia fungus she mentions is always present on the scalp. Sebum is composed of fatty acids which are the food source of the fungus. If you're using a wash method (or stretching washes too much) & it's not getting your scalp clean enough (the mild surfactants in conditioners may not be strong enough for everyone's scalp), you can set yourself up for scalp problems, which could lead to hair fall. It's not illogical at all.


I think it's more likely that mild sensitivity to certain compounds on scalps is quite common, especially since scalps aren't naturally exposed to much in the way of allergens except what's in our shampoos and conditioners. Plant oils aren't just one kind of molecule, there can be dozens or hundreds of different kinds of chemicals and aromatics in a plant oil, and I can't remember the last time I saw a conditioner that didn't have some kind of plant extract or another.

I agree with this also. For me personally, I notice increased shedding as soon as I use products with a lot of essential oils & botanical extracts. It stops as soon as I go back to something without them.

[Theobroma]

Exactly! I have no idea too. But what I don't believe is that C or O can make hair fall out. There has to be another reason for shedding after CO or ScalpO.

Nope, sorry. I know from bitter experience that this is not the case.

I did CO for a year and a half. It was great at first; my hair loved it and I didn't immediately notice any excess shedding. I would have dropped it like a hot potato if I had. But over time the amount of hair that was coming out in every wash increased, by tiny increments, until it was a huge wad.

Back when I was doing it there seemed to be a lot of rationalisation (and perhaps unconscious denial) floating around on the CO thread. If it wasn't working for you, you were doing something wrong; if it looked like a lot of hair, the impression was misleading because the extra slip from the conditioner was making all the naturally shed hairs come out in one go rather than gradually when you were brushing; or else it only looked like a lot because your hair was longer than two years ago so of course the same number of hairs would make a bigger wad. Et cetera.

I listened to all those logical-sounding reasons... until I'd lost 40% of my thickness.

THE MOMENT I went back to shampoo (and subsequently soap), the wash-day shedding stopped as though someone had flipped a switch. That is to say, the size of the wad that was coming out INSTANTLY decreased to 25% of what it had been with CO. That was two and a half years ago; I was at hip then, I've been at classic (stretched) for over a year now and am regrowing thickness... and the size of the washday shed is no bigger now than it was just after I quit CO even though my hair is now a foot longer than it was then. (I have the photographs to prove this, BTW. The CO disaster left me paranoid enough that I started keeping a record of my washday shed so that I'd have concrete evidence and not just impressions and vague memories to go on.)

The number of hairs I comb out on non-wash days has always been normal to low normal, even in my CO days. Also, I didn't change anything else in my hair routine or my lifestyle when I quit CO. I didn't move house; I didn't change jobs; there was no hormonal upheaval; my diet stayed the same and so did my stress levels. I had blood work done and everything came back normal. And the crazily huge washday shed issue has never, ever come back since I stopped CO washing. Absolutely the only thing that could have been making me lose ridiculous amounts of hair every time I washed (and only when I washed) my hair was the conditioner getting on my scalp.

I don't know why. But as for "there has to be another reason..." -- nope, sorry, there doesn't. Some of us just can't get away with putting conditioner on our scalps, end of story.

[spidermom]

Of course I expect that each person will keep her or his own counsel when it comes to eliminating routines that appear to increase shedding. I certainly would. I also know that people will report all sorts of things that aren't objectively true, and without being there to observe for myself - how would I know?

[ExpectoPatronum]

As someone who experienced circumference loss from CO, I would like to weigh in on my experiences.

When I started my curly hair journey, I was excited to try CO. I bought Suave conditioner, and started using it. I was already shedding a bit heavier at that time due to hormonal issues, but CO exacerbated it right off the bat. I was noticing way more hair down the drain that I would have liked and my ponytail was only going smaller and smaller. When I stopped, the extra shedding stopped. Yeah, it was still kinda bad, but not as bad. My hair started growing again and my ponytail also got a little thicker. That was in the Spring.

Well maybe it was seasonal? I tried it again in the summer. Same story. Fall, Winter. Yup, no change.

I then got my hormones under control and my shedding went down dramatically. I was excited to try CO again now that I had my hormones fixed and went to try it again. This was in the fall/winter the next year. Guess what? Dramatic increase in shedding again. I stuck with it a few weeks and lost a quarter of an inch from my ponytail circumference. I had been at 4" for a while, and it was down to around 3.75".

Fast forward to this spring. I tried COing once again. And...You guessed it. Dramatic increase in shedding. I experimented with all different types of Cowashes and no matter what I use, the shedding is the same. Balls of hair that can cover my palm? No thanks.

For comparison, I can go three or four days without washing or combing my hair at all and only lose half that when I do wash and detangle. With cowashing, it was always clumps of hair even if I took the time to remove shed hairs beforehand.

It's just the nature of people's individual skin and scalps. For some people, CO is a godsend. For others, it's a lion dressed in sheep's clothing.

But I don't know. I guess me trying it multiple times over the course of a couple years just means I was doing it wrong :)

[bonbon58]

Of course I expect that each person will keep her or his own counsel when it comes to eliminating routines that appear to increase shedding. I certainly would. I also know that people will report all sorts of things that aren't objectively true, and without being there to observe for myself - how would I know?

Agreed! My logic is that based on my personal experience, oil-->clogged pores and increased fungus on scalp-->hair falls out because the follicle has been clogged by dandruff or acne. No, I have not used a microscope on my head to see what exactly was going on. I did not test which exact chemical in the conditioner or oil was causing this. Maybe the hairloss is caused by multiple complex factors pertaining to oil or the conditioner. But with my experience, and those of many others (including people not on this forum who don't know a single thing about CO washes or scalp oiling) I don't think it's fair to dismiss our empirical observation as something that is illogical or made-up. :flower:

[Theobroma]

But with my experience, and those of many others (including people not on this forum who don't know a single thing about CO washes or scalp oiling) I don't think it's fair to dismiss our empirical observation as something that is illogical or made-up. :flower:

Seconding this.

I've noticed more than once, and not only in connection with CO washing but also with other hair/scalp treatments, that there seems to be a strong disinclination to believe that a method that works wonders for some people could possibly be ineffective or even detrimental for others. Sort of an "It's my holy grail so it couldn't possibly be the cause of your problem" reaction. I suppose it's human nature. :shrug:

[ExpectoPatronum]

Seconding this.

I've noticed more than once, and not only in connection with CO washing but also with other hair/scalp treatments, that there seems to be a strong disinclination to believe that a method that works wonders for some people could possibly be ineffective or even detrimental for others. Sort of an "It's my holy grail so it couldn't possibly be the cause of your problem" reaction. I suppose it's human nature. :shrug:

I agree. This might be a bit of a stretch but it's the best comparison I can think of.

Plenty of people can eat and enjoy peanuts without a problem, but that doesn't change the fact that peanuts can be deadly for some people.

COwashing is great for a lot of people, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that for some, it's not good at all.

[Wusel]

Please don't misunderstand me. I don't want to discount or dismiss anything, any experienced happenings or something, I just want to know how it can be that C or O can loosen a hair from the follicle and make it fall out earlier which sounds illogical. That's it. If you all misunderstand this, let's close this thread.
I don't use anything on my scalp myself because it makes me shed like hell, as I described in other threads, so it is my own illogical experience too. I know this. But I want to understand it because I experience something I can't understand when I read about the nature oh hair and it's growth.

[lapushka]

I doubt you'll ever find out why, Wusel, which is why we say YMMV and leave it at that. You know?

[Wusel]

I doubt you'll ever find out why, Wusel, which is why we say YMMV and leave it at that. You know?

What does YMMV mean?

[Aderyn]

What does YMMV mean?

Your mileage may vary. Just that different things work for different people basically. :)

[Theobroma]

Oh no, Wusel, this is a very interesting thread and I hope the discussion continues! I'm 100% with you in that I'd love to understand exactly why CO is such a train wreck for some of us. All I know is that this is the case; I'm still no closer to working out why my scalp resents having anything rich put on it.

My last post was not about anything you said; it was in response to the post immediately following the one in which I described my own (disastrous) experience with CO. Suggesting that people who are reporting experiences that don't tally with one's preconceived ideas are saying things that aren't "objectively true" is neither KNIT nor constructive, in my view.

ExpectoPatronum, allergies have occurred to me too as an analogy. Or possibly intolerances -- the way one's system can have difficulty tolerating certain foods even if one isn't actually allergic to them!

[bonbon58]

we need a scientist/dermatologist here! haha

[lapushka]

we need a scientist/dermatologist here! haha

Scientist? Maaaybe. Derm? Same with any doctor. All they sometimes say is that if one thing doesn't work, to try another. Same with me and my doctors. If one medication didn't work for me, they didn't question it either but prescribed something different yet similar (same category of medications but different med). Some meds don't work for some either, nobody questions that either! It is the way it is with people's experiences.

[meteor]

^ Those are all very interesting experiences! Thank you so much for sharing them! :flowers: Very interesting discussion.

I think something like sensitivities/intolerance to individual ingredients could have something to do with those experiences... as well as maybe not being able to cleanse the scalp of oil thoroughly (compared to a harsh shampoo), which could create some undiagnosed fungal imbalances -> higher probability of hairfall. In those cases, it is probably best not to persevere with such product/method.

However, I'm also curious about another category of reactions: initial high shedding, followed by absolutely normal shedding (maybe even less than normal) - is that good? bad? and what could be the mechanism behind that? :flower:
(I get this every time I start oiling my scalp regularly (after a break). And I've heard other people report it, too.)

[spidermom]

To clarify, I'm not saying that anybody here is saying something that is not "objectively true". My point is "without observing it for myself, how would I know?" What I know is that I shed quite heavily around the end of summer, beginning of fall. If anybody talks about that, I can agree because I experience it myself.

Shedding because of conditioner or oil doesn't make sense to me, that's all. Hairs are held in the follicles by roots, and I can't bend my mind around the idea that conditioner or oil could cause the root to - I don't know - shrink suddenly or dissolve, allowing the hair to fall out immediately. But hey - flight in big, heavy jets full of people doesn't make sense to me, either (even though I've read up on it), but it works.