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leilan
June 26th, 2015, 03:22 PM
Hi again,

So, I have wanted long hair my whole life. Usually, right when it starts getting really long, I get bored, chop it, and start over. I'm at BSL, approx 27", and I feel so disappointed. I definitely have not found the right routine for my hair, and I'm getting tired of trying tons of different products and being underwhelmed by them all (not to mention, my wallet can't take it!).

At this point, I would rather have shorter hair that's less work, since I'm not getting any enjoyment out of my long hair anyway!

What I have always dreamed of is having long, silky hair that I can run my fingers through and throw over my shoulders. Instead, I've got rough, tangly hair. Is my dream even feasible? I know wearing your hair up protects it, but for me, if I can't wear it down and not have it tangle instantly, then there's hardly any point.

I just want healthy hair, who knew that would be so hard!

Anyway, I just needed to rant... If you'd like more info on what I've tried, just lmk.

lapushka
June 26th, 2015, 03:29 PM
Sounds to me like you're getting to the bored fase again. Maybe apply the 2-week rule. Think about it for 2 weeks, and if after that you still want to cut, at least you gave it thought, and it's not an impulse.

Have you experimented with CO, CWC, WCC, WO,... all those methods? There's LOC, there's ROO (see signature). There's lots of things on here for you to still try before chopping. ;)

mz_butterfly
June 26th, 2015, 03:31 PM
It seems like you are overthinking the hair and hair products. I believe you're making it harder than it should be.

Put everything away except 1 bottle of shampoo, 1 bottle of conditioner and some leave in (if you have it) and one kind of each styling aide. Try to minimoze instead of over-doing things. Maybe you will find a happy medium. :)

And some food for thought: Your hair may not be the type that will ever be smooth and silky. That might be something you have to face up to. But that is the same regardless if hair is long or short. You can't change your texture unless you perm or relax your hair but then you're just damaging it and it's not permanent. (pun not intended)

Also, rough and tangly hair does not equal unhealthy hair. It's simply a texture, it's neither good nor bad.

ravenheather
June 26th, 2015, 03:59 PM
Hope you don't mind d a product suggestion, but when I use toadstool shampoo from etsy my hair is so slick it is difficult to put up. There are a ton of scents to choose from and she sells sample sizes.
https://www.etsy.com/search?q=shampoo+toadstool

jupiterinleo
June 26th, 2015, 04:06 PM
I would stick to one routine per month and record the results in a notepad.

Also, do you have hard water? My hair has been acting like a turd ever since I moved to a city with hard water. Nothing I do seems to help it not be crunchy and tangly. Actually, vinegar rinses help a little bit with that. I would do a good clarifying or chelating, pick a bare-bones routine that you know your hair is fairly comfortable with and go from there. Wait a month or two and then see if you still want to chop.

Aderyn
June 26th, 2015, 04:11 PM
What sort of products and regimens have you been using/doing most recently? Have you clarified? Chelate? Do you use silicones? Oils?

I'd start out very simply. Just focus on finding a good conditioner and a nice shampoo, maybe a light oil. Try the CWC or WCC methods with said products and then start branching out for other products.

I only use a few products on my hair - oil, shampoo, conditioner, hair mask. That's all, and it's very common for people here to not use too many types of product. I agree with mz_butterfly in that you might be overthinking things.

leilan
June 26th, 2015, 04:19 PM
I'm not sure I even want to cut... It just feels like that's a better option than being frustrated with my long hair. I'm holding off on the decision, for now.

I've tried CWC, WCC, ROO... I've been thinking about trying CO but I don't have a conditioner I like enough to give it a try.

I have tried pre-poo oiling, oil after shampoo but before conditioner, chelating shampoo, deep conditioner, SMT, vinegar rinse... Lots of stuff. If there was any benefit, it only lasted about a day.

Unfortunately I'm already on a bare bones routine. I wash/condition every three days, and those are literally the only products I use. The reason I'm so hung up on texture is that the last time I had my hair this long, before I found LHC, my hair was fairly silky and untangled. It's just in the last few years I've had problems (although, it IS possible that before, I was just ignorant to the problems, rather than them not being there...)

Thank you for the product recommendation!

leilan
June 26th, 2015, 04:28 PM
My current routine:
Shampoo - Yes to Carrots Nourishing Shampoo
Conditioner - Suave Professionals Black Raspberry & White Tea Conditioner

Occasionals:
Aubrey GPB Balancing Conditioner (I've tried this twice. First time, rinsing it out in the shower my hair was soooo smooth. Second time, rougher and with residue once dry.)
Shea Moisture Deep Treatment Masque (maybe once a month)
Joico K-Pak Clarifying Shampoo (also maybe once a month)

I tried oiling with mineral oil after shampoo, I didn't notice any difference. Most oils weigh my hair down too much anyway. I want to try camellia oil, but it is pricey.

meteor
June 26th, 2015, 04:32 PM
I'm not sure I even want to cut... It just feels like that's a better option than being frustrated with my long hair. I'm holding off on the decision, for now.

I've tried CWC, WCC, ROO... I've been thinking about trying CO but I don't have a conditioner I like enough to give it a try.

I have tried pre-poo oiling, oil after shampoo but before conditioner, chelating shampoo, deep conditioner, SMT, vinegar rinse... Lots of stuff. If there was any benefit, it only lasted about a day.

Unfortunately I'm already on a bare bones routine. I wash/condition every three days, and those are literally the only products I use. The reason I'm so hung up on texture is that the last time I had my hair this long, before I found LHC, my hair was fairly silky and untangled. It's just in the last few years I've had problems (although, it IS possible that before, I was just ignorant to the problems, rather than them not being there...)

Thank you for the product recommendation!

What products did you use back when hair was silky and tangle-free? :) I'd go back to that, if they aren't discontinued.

Do you, by any chance, have any old damage (heat, dye, etc) that you've accumulated on your ends? Damage tends to catch up over time, even with the right routines...

:grouphug: So sorry you are going through this. :( I guess finding a couple really well-suited conditioners/serums with a ton of slip should help, but it can take a lot of time and experimentation. Hang in there! :flower:

alexis917
June 26th, 2015, 04:37 PM
Shorter hair is not less work. I thought chopping my hip length, 1c hair into a pixie would give me an easier routine. Upon growing it out into a bob....no. I discovered I have 2c hair, and spent a while with a ball of frizz, unsure what to do. Luckily I've sorted that out, but...learn from my mistakes!!

Can I have some more details on your routine? How do you detangle, how do you wear your hair daily, and to bed?

I also would like to know if you have a shower filter, or if you have moved recently. It sounds like you might have hard water.

leilan
June 26th, 2015, 04:39 PM
Thanks for the comfort, meteor! My hair is something I want to love and I'm sad that it's bringing me frustration instead. Any recommendations for said conditioners/serums with slip?

My hair is mostly virgin by now, I would think. In 2010 I dyed it and was using heat, but I think that has all grown out by now.

Arctic
June 26th, 2015, 04:48 PM
Maybe your hair type has change, it happens sometimes.

And, when I tried caffeine rinses, I didn't really get the effect I was after but boy did they make my hair silky and slippery! I diluted caffeine pill in water and poured it over my hair after shampooing, applied conditioner, let them sit 5 mins and rinsed. If you don't want to use caffeine on your scalp, you could dip your lenght into the solution. There are several caffeine rinse threads here, but most discussion is about the effects on scalp.

Alien Girl
June 26th, 2015, 05:08 PM
I agree with previous posters that.... growing hair gets BORING!!

But the thing is.. it's boring if you think about it too much. Hair growth takes time. I hardly pay attention to the length of my hair so every time I DO, I actually notice a change :)

leilan
June 26th, 2015, 05:31 PM
alexis-

I only finger detangle, although I never feel like I've gotten them all... I brush lightly with a BBB in the morning and right before bed, just to smooth down flyaways.

I wear my hair either in a french braid or up with a clip/hair stick. I wear it down sometimes, and I try to keep it pulled forward over one shoulder.

I have a silk pillowcase, and I wear either a french braid or twisted up on top of my head.

No shower filter; I've been meaning to get one, but again, money. :P I moved in March, actually, but my hair has been it's same ornery self since way before I moved.

Aderyn
June 26th, 2015, 05:41 PM
Have you tried to do a lot of moisturizing? Water-based leave ins sealed with oil, lots of conditioner, etc. Protein treatments? No protein?

meteor
June 26th, 2015, 05:43 PM
Thanks for the comfort, meteor! My hair is something I want to love and I'm sad that it's bringing me frustration instead. Any recommendations for said conditioners/serums with slip?

My hair is mostly virgin by now, I would think. In 2010 I dyed it and was using heat, but I think that has all grown out by now.

If your hair is at 25'', then the ends are ~ 4 years old (assuming ~ 0.5'' growth per month), so yes, it should be grown out. :)

You know how individual product choices are... For me personally, J&J baby oil (mineral oil) as a sealing oil, Garnier Fructis Triple Nutrition and Sleek & Shine, as well as Hello Hydration (by Herbal Essences) as conditioners provide very good slip. MoroccanOil serum and Garnier Fructis anti-frizz serum work well for slip as serums/detanglers, but we have different hairtypes, so I don't know if they'd be good for you. And they are heavy silicone-bombs (except for the baby oil). :flower:

For falling in love with long hair again, I like learning new styles that require current length and wouldn't work on shorter hair. :) Another thing to do is pure experimentation: new conditioning products, new heatless styling (curls/straightening), maybe even deposit-only temporary dyes? :)

leilan
June 26th, 2015, 05:50 PM
Caffeine, huh? I will look into it! Thanks for the idea!

Aderyn - I have tried SMT, deep conditioner, pre-poo with coconut oil, gelatin protein treatment, and GPB conditioner. If there was any difference, it only lasted for a day.

meteor - Thanks for the suggestions. I'm not opposed to trying some more cones, although my conditioner right now has dimethicone in it and I don't love it...
And what are these temporary dyes you speak of? I'd LOVE to try some colors but I don't want to damage my hair, so I've avoided them for years.

Aderyn
June 26th, 2015, 05:55 PM
How long do you spend on a specific regimen?

Moisturizing won't give you instant, lasting results, it's something you have to work on and be persistent about over a period of time. Perhaps even everyday with a misting of water/light oiling.

I do hope you figure out a routine that works well :flower:

meteor
June 26th, 2015, 06:04 PM
And what are these temporary dyes you speak of? I'd LOVE to try some colors but I don't want to damage my hair, so I've avoided them for years.

Temporary veggie, deposit-only dyes, things like Pravana, Manic Panic, Adore, Directions... They are usually vivids, but some have pretty natural look. You could do a few streaks/ombre when you are bored. On lighter hair they will show up way more intensely, and on very dark hair they usually won't even show up (unless it's pre-bleached). They may fade very slowly though, especially on lighter and porous hair, and the fading process is important (some fade in nicer colors than others).

Alternatively, you could try color sprays (e.g. like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sCL_qv8nMo)) or color chalks (hard or liquid) (e.g. like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jne91bir7_c)) for color that will wash off after one or two shampooings. They are drying when they are on hair, but they wash off completely and are non-damaging.

leilan
June 26th, 2015, 07:51 PM
Aderyn - I was focused on moisture for a long time; I was convinced that was what my hair needed. Maybe four months. I didn't try misting/oiling though, mostly because I look like an oil slick if I don't wash the oil off quickly. I'll look into it though.

Thanks for the dye info, meteor! I would love to change things up, especially if there are non-damaging ways.

Idk if this helps, but here is my hair, freshly washed and air-dried:
http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab243/kicamh/Mobile%20Uploads/2015-06/20150625_204255_zps0crkwcda.jpg

There's a bunch of frizzies/flyaways - not breakage, but new growth - but the strands oddly flip out and curl up at the ends. I suspect that this may be contributing to my tangles...

meteor
June 26th, 2015, 08:01 PM
^ Your hair is really beautiful! :applause And such a gorgeous color! :crush:

You know, if it's new growth, that's a great sign! :thumbsup: And the frizz/flyaways would be pretty inevitable in that case, unless you are ready to weigh it down with water, conditioner, gel, oils...

It's also possible that old product build-up or mineral build-up is contributing to tangles, in that case "resetting" hair by clarifying (for product build-up) and chelating (for mineral build-up) would help - sometimes one needs to do it a few times, if you see some improvement after the first use.

leilan
June 26th, 2015, 08:08 PM
Aww meteor, thank you!:o

What I really would love is something with a ton of slip that doesn't build up on my hair. I guess that's asking a lot though. If I were to try a very coney conditioner, is there a generally well-tolerated one that I should try to start?

Aderyn
June 26th, 2015, 09:23 PM
Try a conditioner with just amodimethicone or BIS-aminopropyl dimethicone as those silicones don't really build up too much.

Many people enjoy Aussie's 3 minute miracle, the silicone it contains is BIS-aminopropyl dimethicone and it is widely available. :)

meteor
June 26th, 2015, 09:38 PM
^ Oh yes, that's a really good one! :thumbsup:

flickm
June 27th, 2015, 12:37 AM
This could be me. I seem to wildly swing between BSL and shoulder. It gets halfway down my back and I decide it looks straggly and cut it. I'm recovering from that now - cut to shoulder in April, back to armpit now- and regret the cut as I've decided to persevere and try to get to waist or hip (which I never manage because I get fedup and cut). I realise one reason my hair needs cutting (apart from a period of stress/sleep deprivation) is that I haven't been looking after it. Elasticated hair bands, heavy brushing, temporary dyes, hair dryer. Suddenly all the frenetic stuff has stopped, I am using a very simple routine, and my hair is settling down and recovering. It's now hennaed (but that is neither here nor there, except it's improved the condition), I wash with a shampoo bar once or twice a week, rinse with vinegar and water with a few drops of peppermint essential oil, air dry, comb once a day, carefully with a horn comb, and basically leave it alone. No heat, brushes or tortured routines. And I wear it loose. It has settled down and is growing fast, thickening up and generally looks and feels way better.

I personally wouldn't mind coarseness. However, my ends are a bit dry and tangly - which would have had me reaching for the scissors before - so I oil them in the morning before combing: a mix of rosehip seed oil and peppermint essential oil, but I think any oil would do. And that's it. I've decided not to bother even trimming, except for my fringe, unless it starts splitting.

I think you have to accept your hair for whatever type it is, rather than wanting it to be something else, then work with that. There lies peace...

BTW, your hair looks stunning, and that regrowth is just what I have all the time - I wouldnt stress over what it looks like.

lapushka
June 27th, 2015, 05:00 AM
I've tried CWC, WCC, ROO... I've been thinking about trying CO but I don't have a conditioner I like enough to give it a try.

I have tried pre-poo oiling, oil after shampoo but before conditioner, chelating shampoo, deep conditioner, SMT, vinegar rinse... Lots of stuff. If there was any benefit, it only lasted about a day.

Unfortunately I'm already on a bare bones routine. I wash/condition every three days, and those are literally the only products I use. The reason I'm so hung up on texture is that the last time I had my hair this long, before I found LHC, my hair was fairly silky and untangled. It's just in the last few years I've had problems (although, it IS possible that before, I was just ignorant to the problems, rather than them not being there...)

Oh gosh darn, what a bummer. I thought hey there's lots to try still... Hmm, have you thought about letting us hairtype you. I remember when I went from 1b/c hair in my teens to the 2s during puberty, I thought I had a tangly (straight) mess, but that wasn't the case.

ravenheather
June 27th, 2015, 07:26 AM
I second amodimethicone conditioner. My favorite is Renpure Argan oil conditioner you can get it at walgreens or on Amazon. Totally makes a difference in how my hair lays. No buildup.

Arctic
June 27th, 2015, 07:45 AM
Caffeine rinses also won't build-up, and make hair feel and look amazing ;) :whistle:

Panth
June 27th, 2015, 08:48 AM
My current routine:
Shampoo - Yes to Carrots Nourishing Shampoo
Conditioner - Suave Professionals Black Raspberry & White Tea Conditioner

Occasionals:
Aubrey GPB Balancing Conditioner (I've tried this twice. First time, rinsing it out in the shower my hair was soooo smooth. Second time, rougher and with residue once dry.)
Shea Moisture Deep Treatment Masque (maybe once a month)
Joico K-Pak Clarifying Shampoo (also maybe once a month)

I tried oiling with mineral oil after shampoo, I didn't notice any difference. Most oils weigh my hair down too much anyway. I want to try camellia oil, but it is pricey.

An observation:

Here's the ingredients for your Yes to Carrots shampoo: (http://www.yestocarrots.com/product/yes-to-carrots-nourishing-shampoo?product_id=1221007#tabs-2)
Water (Aqua), Lauryl Glucoside, Decyl Glucoside, Sodium Coco-Sulfate, Glyceryl Stearate SE, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Juice, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Seed Oil, Maris Aqua, Maris Limus Extract, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond) Oil, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil*, Calendula Officinalis Seed Oil, Cucurbita Pepo (Pumpkin) Fruit Extract, Ipomoea Batatas Root Lees Extract, Cucumis Melo (Melon) Fruit Extract, Triticum Vulgare (Wheat) Germ Oil, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Fruit Extract, Honey Extract, Punica Granatum Extract, Xanthan Gum, Citric Acid, Fragrance (Parfum), Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate

Here's the ingredients for your Suave conditioner: (http://www.amazon.com/Suave-Professionals-Conditioner-Black-Raspberry/dp/B004DBVPGA)
Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Dimethicone, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Camellia Sinesis Leaf Extract, Rubus Occidentalis Fruit Juice, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower/Leaf Extract, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Flower Extract, Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Oil, Cymbopogon Schoenanthus Oil (Lemongrass), Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Behentrimonium Chloride, Fragrance, Dipropylene Glycol, Latic Acid, Amodimethicone, Potassium Chloride, Disodium EDTA, DMDM Hydantoin, PEG-7 Propylheptyl Either, Cetrimonium Chloride, PEG-150 Distearate, Benzophenone-4, Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone.

What's jumping out at me is:
- there's absolutely masses of plant extracts in both of your products and these can cause build-up as bad or worse than 'cones
- your shampoo surfactants are lauryl glucoside, decyl glucoside and sodium coco-sulphate (http://www.zeroxeno.com/blog/sodium-lauryl-sulfate-vs-sodium-coco-sulfate) - I'm not sure whether these are strong enough to remove the plant extracts that you're cramming on your hair
- your conditioner contains dimethicone as the third ingredient - this is a non-water-soluble 'cone that is known to build up, particularly when used in combination with sulphate-free shampoos (which yours is)

Personally, I'd clarify, chelate and then start a routine using a shampoo and a conditioner with a) much, much fewer plant extracts and b) a better combination of surfactants and conditioning ingredients (i.e. don't use non-water-soluble 'cones unless you're also using a surfactant (SLS, SLES, ALS, ALES or cocoamidopropyl betaine) that will remove them, etc.).

Theobroma
June 27th, 2015, 09:00 AM
Hmm, have you tried washing with soap? (Plus mandatory vinegar rinse to follow up.) For me that makes the difference and gives me super-soft, non-tangly hair.

alexis917
June 27th, 2015, 09:04 AM
I would also like to mention that I think your natural hair color is beautiful! But if you do want a fun, temporary color, do NOT use Pravana. That stuff does NOT quit!!!

meteor
June 27th, 2015, 09:38 AM
^ Yes, on some people it seems like such dyes can last forever or fade super-slowly. I've seen it on some people with Manic Panic, as well. Any dye should be researched in detail and then always strand-tested.

And oh my, your natural color is so stunning, leilan!! :thud: I'd certainly leave it alone and just enjoy the natural gorgeousness! :crush:

lapushka
June 27th, 2015, 09:51 AM
An observation:

Here's the ingredients for your Yes to Carrots shampoo: (http://www.yestocarrots.com/product/yes-to-carrots-nourishing-shampoo?product_id=1221007#tabs-2)
Water (Aqua), Lauryl Glucoside, Decyl Glucoside, Sodium Coco-Sulfate, Glyceryl Stearate SE, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Juice, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Seed Oil, Maris Aqua, Maris Limus Extract, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond) Oil, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil*, Calendula Officinalis Seed Oil, Cucurbita Pepo (Pumpkin) Fruit Extract, Ipomoea Batatas Root Lees Extract, Cucumis Melo (Melon) Fruit Extract, Triticum Vulgare (Wheat) Germ Oil, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Fruit Extract, Honey Extract, Punica Granatum Extract, Xanthan Gum, Citric Acid, Fragrance (Parfum), Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate

Here's the ingredients for your Suave conditioner: (http://www.amazon.com/Suave-Professionals-Conditioner-Black-Raspberry/dp/B004DBVPGA)
Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Dimethicone, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Camellia Sinesis Leaf Extract, Rubus Occidentalis Fruit Juice, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower/Leaf Extract, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Flower Extract, Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Oil, Cymbopogon Schoenanthus Oil (Lemongrass), Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Behentrimonium Chloride, Fragrance, Dipropylene Glycol, Latic Acid, Amodimethicone, Potassium Chloride, Disodium EDTA, DMDM Hydantoin, PEG-7 Propylheptyl Either, Cetrimonium Chloride, PEG-150 Distearate, Benzophenone-4, Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone.

What's jumping out at me is:
- there's absolutely masses of plant extracts in both of your products and these can cause build-up as bad or worse than 'cones
- your shampoo surfactants are lauryl glucoside, decyl glucoside and sodium coco-sulphate (http://www.zeroxeno.com/blog/sodium-lauryl-sulfate-vs-sodium-coco-sulfate) - I'm not sure whether these are strong enough to remove the plant extracts that you're cramming on your hair
- your conditioner contains dimethicone as the third ingredient - this is a non-water-soluble 'cone that is known to build up, particularly when used in combination with sulphate-free shampoos (which yours is)

Personally, I'd clarify, chelate and then start a routine using a shampoo and a conditioner with a) much, much fewer plant extracts and b) a better combination of surfactants and conditioning ingredients (i.e. don't use non-water-soluble 'cones unless you're also using a surfactant (SLS, SLES, ALS, ALES or cocoamidopropyl betaine) that will remove them, etc.).

That's a *very* good point Panth is making!!!

Johannah
June 27th, 2015, 10:48 AM
An observation:

Here's the ingredients for your Yes to Carrots shampoo: (http://www.yestocarrots.com/product/yes-to-carrots-nourishing-shampoo?product_id=1221007#tabs-2)
Water (Aqua), Lauryl Glucoside, Decyl Glucoside, Sodium Coco-Sulfate, Glyceryl Stearate SE, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Juice, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Seed Oil, Maris Aqua, Maris Limus Extract, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond) Oil, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil*, Calendula Officinalis Seed Oil, Cucurbita Pepo (Pumpkin) Fruit Extract, Ipomoea Batatas Root Lees Extract, Cucumis Melo (Melon) Fruit Extract, Triticum Vulgare (Wheat) Germ Oil, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Fruit Extract, Honey Extract, Punica Granatum Extract, Xanthan Gum, Citric Acid, Fragrance (Parfum), Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate

Here's the ingredients for your Suave conditioner: (http://www.amazon.com/Suave-Professionals-Conditioner-Black-Raspberry/dp/B004DBVPGA)
Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Dimethicone, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Camellia Sinesis Leaf Extract, Rubus Occidentalis Fruit Juice, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower/Leaf Extract, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Flower Extract, Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Oil, Cymbopogon Schoenanthus Oil (Lemongrass), Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Behentrimonium Chloride, Fragrance, Dipropylene Glycol, Latic Acid, Amodimethicone, Potassium Chloride, Disodium EDTA, DMDM Hydantoin, PEG-7 Propylheptyl Either, Cetrimonium Chloride, PEG-150 Distearate, Benzophenone-4, Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone.

What's jumping out at me is:
- there's absolutely masses of plant extracts in both of your products and these can cause build-up as bad or worse than 'cones
- your shampoo surfactants are lauryl glucoside, decyl glucoside and sodium coco-sulphate (http://www.zeroxeno.com/blog/sodium-lauryl-sulfate-vs-sodium-coco-sulfate) - I'm not sure whether these are strong enough to remove the plant extracts that you're cramming on your hair
- your conditioner contains dimethicone as the third ingredient - this is a non-water-soluble 'cone that is known to build up, particularly when used in combination with sulphate-free shampoos (which yours is)

Personally, I'd clarify, chelate and then start a routine using a shampoo and a conditioner with a) much, much fewer plant extracts and b) a better combination of surfactants and conditioning ingredients (i.e. don't use non-water-soluble 'cones unless you're also using a surfactant (SLS, SLES, ALS, ALES or cocoamidopropyl betaine) that will remove them, etc.).

Applause for this post :applause:applause

picklepie
June 27th, 2015, 10:51 AM
Sorry, wrong thread! :?

leilan
June 27th, 2015, 12:25 PM
Try a conditioner with just amodimethicone or BIS-aminopropyl dimethicone as those silicones don't really build up too much.

Many people enjoy Aussie's 3 minute miracle, the silicone it contains is BIS-aminopropyl dimethicone and it is widely available. :)
Thank you for the recommendation! I really appreciate it; I think product recs are really helpful, since otherwise I'm just guessing and hoping something will work.


This could be me. I seem to wildly swing between BSL and shoulder. It gets halfway down my back and I decide it looks straggly and cut it. I'm recovering from that now - cut to shoulder in April, back to armpit now- and regret the cut as I've decided to persevere and try to get to waist or hip (which I never manage because I get fedup and cut). I realise one reason my hair needs cutting (apart from a period of stress/sleep deprivation) is that I haven't been looking after it. Elasticated hair bands, heavy brushing, temporary dyes, hair dryer. Suddenly all the frenetic stuff has stopped, I am using a very simple routine, and my hair is settling down and recovering. It's now hennaed (but that is neither here nor there, except it's improved the condition), I wash with a shampoo bar once or twice a week, rinse with vinegar and water with a few drops of peppermint essential oil, air dry, comb once a day, carefully with a horn comb, and basically leave it alone. No heat, brushes or tortured routines. And I wear it loose. It has settled down and is growing fast, thickening up and generally looks and feels way better.

I personally wouldn't mind coarseness. However, my ends are a bit dry and tangly - which would have had me reaching for the scissors before - so I oil them in the morning before combing: a mix of rosehip seed oil and peppermint essential oil, but I think any oil would do. And that's it. I've decided not to bother even trimming, except for my fringe, unless it starts splitting.

I think you have to accept your hair for whatever type it is, rather than wanting it to be something else, then work with that. There lies peace...

BTW, your hair looks stunning, and that regrowth is just what I have all the time - I wouldnt stress over what it looks like.
I think you're right... I don't want to try to make my hair something it isn't. Thank you for the advice!


Oh gosh darn, what a bummer. I thought hey there's lots to try still... Hmm, have you thought about letting us hairtype you. I remember when I went from 1b/c hair in my teens to the 2s during puberty, I thought I had a tangly (straight) mess, but that wasn't the case.
I'm willing! What is involved in hairtyping??


An observation:

Here's the ingredients for your Yes to Carrots shampoo: (http://www.yestocarrots.com/product/yes-to-carrots-nourishing-shampoo?product_id=1221007#tabs-2)
Water (Aqua), Lauryl Glucoside, Decyl Glucoside, Sodium Coco-Sulfate, Glyceryl Stearate SE, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Juice, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Seed Oil, Maris Aqua, Maris Limus Extract, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond) Oil, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil*, Calendula Officinalis Seed Oil, Cucurbita Pepo (Pumpkin) Fruit Extract, Ipomoea Batatas Root Lees Extract, Cucumis Melo (Melon) Fruit Extract, Triticum Vulgare (Wheat) Germ Oil, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Fruit Extract, Honey Extract, Punica Granatum Extract, Xanthan Gum, Citric Acid, Fragrance (Parfum), Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate

Here's the ingredients for your Suave conditioner: (http://www.amazon.com/Suave-Professionals-Conditioner-Black-Raspberry/dp/B004DBVPGA)
Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Dimethicone, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Camellia Sinesis Leaf Extract, Rubus Occidentalis Fruit Juice, Chamomilla Recutita (Matricaria) Flower/Leaf Extract, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Flower Extract, Rosmarinus Officinalis (Rosemary) Leaf Oil, Cymbopogon Schoenanthus Oil (Lemongrass), Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Behentrimonium Chloride, Fragrance, Dipropylene Glycol, Latic Acid, Amodimethicone, Potassium Chloride, Disodium EDTA, DMDM Hydantoin, PEG-7 Propylheptyl Either, Cetrimonium Chloride, PEG-150 Distearate, Benzophenone-4, Ethylhexyl Methoxycinnamate, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone.

What's jumping out at me is:
- there's absolutely masses of plant extracts in both of your products and these can cause build-up as bad or worse than 'cones
- your shampoo surfactants are lauryl glucoside, decyl glucoside and sodium coco-sulphate (http://www.zeroxeno.com/blog/sodium-lauryl-sulfate-vs-sodium-coco-sulfate) - I'm not sure whether these are strong enough to remove the plant extracts that you're cramming on your hair
- your conditioner contains dimethicone as the third ingredient - this is a non-water-soluble 'cone that is known to build up, particularly when used in combination with sulphate-free shampoos (which yours is)

Personally, I'd clarify, chelate and then start a routine using a shampoo and a conditioner with a) much, much fewer plant extracts and b) a better combination of surfactants and conditioning ingredients (i.e. don't use non-water-soluble 'cones unless you're also using a surfactant (SLS, SLES, ALS, ALES or cocoamidopropyl betaine) that will remove them, etc.).
Wow!! I had no idea that the plant extracts could be causing a problem. I guess I assumed that because they were 'natural', they weren't doing any harm. This is so interesting. Thank you for the insight into what does and doesn't cause buildup. As for your advice, any... suggestions? :D


Hmm, have you tried washing with soap? (Plus mandatory vinegar rinse to follow up.) For me that makes the difference and gives me super-soft, non-tangly hair.
I haven't tried with just soap... I guess I thought that that would be too harsh!


I just want to say THANK YOU all for your kind words and insight! I'd be lost without you kind folks on this forum giving me guidance, suggestions and hope! :bowtome:

lapushka
June 27th, 2015, 12:52 PM
I'm willing! What is involved in hairtyping??

You just wash/condition or only wash your hair then don't touch it (with a comb/brush) and let it airdry, then you snap a picture and let us see what texture you have.

Aderyn
June 27th, 2015, 01:44 PM
From what I understand, Lauryl Glucoside, Decyl Glucoside and Sodium Coco-Sulfate are all surfactants that can remove silicones. Generally, any surfactant that can remove sebum or oil from the hair can remove silicones. Decyl Glucoside in particular is non-ionic and should have no trouble removing pretty much all varieties of silicones (it is the one I'm most familiar with out of the list because it is the one used in Shea Moisture shampoos). Silicones are also soluble in oil, so even oiling the hair would help remove silicone buildup.

Maybe not 105% removal like you'd get with a harsher clarifying wash, but enough to prevent/remove buildup from being an issue. :)

Panth
June 27th, 2015, 02:23 PM
Wow!! I had no idea that the plant extracts could be causing a problem. I guess I assumed that because they were 'natural', they weren't doing any harm. This is so interesting. Thank you for the insight into what does and doesn't cause buildup. As for your advice, any... suggestions? :D

For clarifying and chelating, I like Pantene Classic Clarifying shampoo (this one (http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a547/theglittervixen/Beauty%20Reviews/clarifyingshampoo_zpsa6707dbc.jpg~original), NOT this one (which bizarrely contains 'cones and so won't do the job) (http://pics2.ds-static.com/prodimg/462396/300.JPG)). That is advertised as clarifying but also takes all the limescale off my bathroom sink, so evidently chelates too. (Clarifying = removes product build-up, chelate = removes mineral build-up.)

As for new products for afterwards, it depends - products vary between countries, both in availability and sometimes in ingredients. Also, the best product will depend upon hairtype, routine, water hardness, hair length, amount of damage and loads of other factors. Personally, I've not got a favourite shampoo but I really like L'Oreal Elvive Full Restore 5 conditioner. It's got amodimethicone (a 'cone that won't build-up as it only sticks to damaged spots on hair, not itself) and lots of protein (which is often good for fine and/or damaged hair and which my hair loves but lots of people's hair hates).

For hairtyping, see the links in my signature for tips.

leilan
June 27th, 2015, 05:33 PM
For clarifying and chelating, I like Pantene Classic Clarifying shampoo (this one (http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a547/theglittervixen/Beauty%20Reviews/clarifyingshampoo_zpsa6707dbc.jpg~original), NOT this one (which bizarrely contains 'cones and so won't do the job) (http://pics2.ds-static.com/prodimg/462396/300.JPG)). That is advertised as clarifying but also takes all the limescale off my bathroom sink, so evidently chelates too. (Clarifying = removes product build-up, chelate = removes mineral build-up.)

As for new products for afterwards, it depends - products vary between countries, both in availability and sometimes in ingredients. Also, the best product will depend upon hairtype, routine, water hardness, hair length, amount of damage and loads of other factors. Personally, I've not got a favourite shampoo but I really like L'Oreal Elvive Full Restore 5 conditioner. It's got amodimethicone (a 'cone that won't build-up as it only sticks to damaged spots on hair, not itself) and lots of protein (which is often good for fine and/or damaged hair and which my hair loves but lots of people's hair hates).

For hairtyping, see the links in my signature for tips.

Thanks for the product recs! For a clarifying/chelating shampoo, would Joico K Pak Clarifying shampoo be ok? That's what I've got now. And would it be a safe bet to just buy the accompanying shampoo that goes with the conditioner, if the ingredients aren't full of plant extract? For instance, the Garnier Fructis Triple Nutrition shampoo and condish, or Loreal Elvive shampoo and condish? Should I only change one at a time? What about shampoo bars? (So many questions- sorry!)

As for hairtyping, I will snap some photos after the next time I wash my hair.

Panth
June 28th, 2015, 01:52 AM
Thanks for the product recs! For a clarifying/chelating shampoo, would Joico K Pak Clarifying shampoo be ok? That's what I've got now. And would it be a safe bet to just buy the accompanying shampoo that goes with the conditioner, if the ingredients aren't full of plant extract? For instance, the Garnier Fructis Triple Nutrition shampoo and condish, or Loreal Elvive shampoo and condish? Should I only change one at a time? What about shampoo bars? (So many questions- sorry!)

As for hairtyping, I will snap some photos after the next time I wash my hair.

If you've already got a clarifying shampoo, yeah, definitely use that. (You can double-check the ingredients and make sure there's no 'cones, polyquats or other coating ingredients if you're feeling particularly paranoid, but it should be fine.) That one probably won't chelate, but unless you have hard water or swim a lot then that's probably not a problem.

Generally matched pairs of shampoo/conditioner are designed to work together in terms of surfactant strength in the shampoo vs. ingredients in the conditioner that might build up. There are some that don't work, but generally you'll be safe with matched pairs. If you want to start learning to read and understand ingredient lists, The Natural Haven is a goldmine of easy-to-understand hair science (http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/).

Re. shampoo bars, personally I'd not change over to them (or at least not without trying some other S&Cs first). Why? Firstly, they're a bit of a learning curve. Secondly, being marked to the "natural" crowd means they often also have lots of plant extract stuff in them. Thirdly, shampoo bars are a form of soap and all soaps are alkaline, which long-term has the potential to be damaging to hair (the scalp's acid mantle prefers to be acidic; alkalinity can also raise the hair fibres' cuticle and make it rough). Fourthly, (if you have hard water) soap can play badly with limescale, resulting in a soap scum+limescale build-up on your hair that makes it dull and tangly over time. If you do decide to use shampoo bars (or any other soap-based cleansing method) do be sure to follow up with an acidic rinse. This will prevent that soap scum+limescale build-up, return your scalp to its preferred acidic pH and make those hair cuticles lie down flat. IMO, that's not better than just not causing all that stuff to start with, but ... YMMV.

meteor
June 28th, 2015, 08:22 AM
For a clarifying/chelating shampoo, would Joico K Pak Clarifying shampoo be ok?


If you've already got a clarifying shampoo, yeah, definitely use that. (You can double-check the ingredients and make sure there's no 'cones, polyquats or other coating ingredients if you're feeling particularly paranoid, but it should be fine.) That one probably won't chelate, but unless you have hard water or swim a lot then that's probably not a problem.

According to their marketing claims it does chelate well: http://www.amazon.com/Joico-K-PAK-Clarifying-Shampoo-10-1/dp/B001E6EME4 and http://www.joico.com/products/k-pak-clarifying-shampoo-2/ , however, looking at the ingredients, I really don't see that at all. :hmm: I think it's just a clarifying shampoo, judging by these ingredients:

Water/Aqua/Eau, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Cocamide MEA, Glycol Stearate, Cetyl Alcohol, Cocambopropyl Betaine, Stearic Acid, hydrolyzed Hair Keratin, Laurdimonium Hodroxypropyl Hydrolyzed Hair Keratin, Hydrolyzed Keratin PG-Propyl Methylsilanediol, Thioctic

Did they change their ingredients or names for shampoos or something? :hmm:

That said, I would happily use it! :agree: That might be all you need, especially if you are not a swimmer and your water isn't too hard. If you still have actual build-up after a couple good clarifying washes, then I'd use something like a chelating pack or get a regular swimmers (chelating) shampoo.

Needless to say, it's important to follow up clarifying and chelating with very moisturizing treatment. Some of us like the SMT for that, but any good conditioner that provides lots of slip can do the job. :)

renia22
June 28th, 2015, 09:38 AM
meteor- I used to have that Joico shampoo & could have sworn the ingredient list was a lot longer than that, but I don't have it anymore so I can't look.. strange..

Agree to everything Panth said. Before cutting your hair off, I would at least try a not too expensive "regular" drugstore shampoo & conditioner (without those natural plant extracts, butters and oils, etc, but with sulfates and silicones) and see what happens. Pantene has a "weekly deep cleanse" shampoo & "damage detox" conditioner that work very well together. The Pantene clarifying shampoo Panth mentioned is very good also (not the one with silicones in the brown bottle, the clear one. I know Target carries it) paired with something lighter like Aqualight. Suave also has a daily clarifying shampoo that is well liked, as is the Aussie 3 minute miracle conditioner mentioned earlier in this thread. But I would definitely try that before cutting your hair, it could very well just be build up, or your hair not responding well to the more "natural" ingredients. I personally experienced terrible build up and tangle-y feeling hair with products that contained the more natural ingredients (most butters, many natural oils) that I don't notice even with products that contain non water soluble silicones (I do regularly use sulfate shampoo without a lot of ingredients that build up). Anyways, if your Joico doesn't help, there are some gold gems found in regular drugstores that aren't too expensive. Hope you find something that helps!

Knifegill
June 28th, 2015, 09:38 AM
Do you end your wash with an Apple Cider Vinegar rinse? That always makes my hair soft.

alexis917
June 28th, 2015, 09:44 AM
If you're looking for a "normal" drugstore S&C, I'd like to put in a good word for Garnier Fructis' Length and Strength! I just went back to it after months of CO because I was noticing a bit of coarseness (which for me, means damage). Smooth, coned up hair!

leilan
June 28th, 2015, 10:34 AM
If you've already got a clarifying shampoo, yeah, definitely use that. (You can double-check the ingredients and make sure there's no 'cones, polyquats or other coating ingredients if you're feeling particularly paranoid, but it should be fine.) That one probably won't chelate, but unless you have hard water or swim a lot then that's probably not a problem.

Generally matched pairs of shampoo/conditioner are designed to work together in terms of surfactant strength in the shampoo vs. ingredients in the conditioner that might build up. There are some that don't work, but generally you'll be safe with matched pairs. If you want to start learning to read and understand ingredient lists, The Natural Haven is a goldmine of easy-to-understand hair science (http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/).

Re. shampoo bars, personally I'd not change over to them (or at least not without trying some other S&Cs first). Why? Firstly, they're a bit of a learning curve. Secondly, being marked to the "natural" crowd means they often also have lots of plant extract stuff in them. Thirdly, shampoo bars are a form of soap and all soaps are alkaline, which long-term has the potential to be damaging to hair (the scalp's acid mantle prefers to be acidic; alkalinity can also raise the hair fibres' cuticle and make it rough). Fourthly, (if you have hard water) soap can play badly with limescale, resulting in a soap scum+limescale build-up on your hair that makes it dull and tangly over time. If you do decide to use shampoo bars (or any other soap-based cleansing method) do be sure to follow up with an acidic rinse. This will prevent that soap scum+limescale build-up, return your scalp to its preferred acidic pH and make those hair cuticles lie down flat. IMO, that's not better than just not causing all that stuff to start with, but ... YMMV.

I will definitely look at the Natural Haven blog, thanks for the link! I would like to be able to decipher labels and tell if they were any good for my hair or not. I think I will avoid shampoo bars for now, seeing as how I'm having enough trouble finding what my hair likes without an extra learning curve!


meteor- I used to have that Joico shampoo & could have sworn the ingredient list was a lot longer than that, but I don't have it anymore so I can't look.. strange..

Agree to everything Panth said. Before cutting your hair off, I would at least try a not too expensive "regular" drugstore shampoo & conditioner (without those natural plant extracts, butters and oils, etc, but with sulfates and silicones) and see what happens. Pantene has a "weekly deep cleanse" shampoo & "damage detox" conditioner that work very well together. The Pantene clarifying shampoo Panth mentioned is very good also (not the one with silicones in the brown bottle, the clear one. I know Target carries it) paired with something lighter like Aqualight. Suave also has a daily clarifying shampoo that is well liked, as is the Aussie 3 minute miracle conditioner mentioned earlier in this thread. But I would definitely try that before cutting your hair, it could very well just be build up, or your hair not responding well to the more "natural" ingredients. I personally experienced terrible build up and tangle-y feeling hair with products that contained the more natural ingredients (most butters, many natural oils) that I don't notice with even with products that contain non water soluble silicones (I do regularly use sulfate shampoo without a lot of ingredients that build up). Anyways, if your Joico doesn't help, there are some gold gems found in regular drugstores that aren't too expensive. Hope you find something that helps!
Thank you for the suggestions! I will have to change my way of thinking now. I have gradually moved away from conventional SLS products in favor of more natural products; how ironic if that turns out to be what has been giving me such a headache these past few years.


Do you end your wash with an Apple Cider Vinegar rinse? That always makes my hair soft.

I have done this with plain white vinegar, is there a big difference between that and ACV?


If you're looking for a "normal" drugstore S&C, I'd like to put in a good word for Garnier Fructis' Length and Strength! I just went back to it after months of CO because I was noticing a bit of coarseness (which for me, means damage). Smooth, coned up hair!

I googled this to get a look at the ingredients, but it appears that it might have been discontinued? People were complaining that they could never find it in stock.

renia22
June 28th, 2015, 11:40 AM
Thank you for the suggestions! I will have to change my way of thinking now. I have gradually moved away from conventional SLS products in favor of more natural products; how ironic if that turns out to be what has been giving me such a headache these past few years.

.

I hear you, I did the same thing for a few years before I finally caved in and went back to drugstore products. Best thing I ever did! There are quite a few of us on this board who have had similar experiences. It's worth a shot. I would definitely clarify with a shampoo meant for clarifying to get rid of any existing build up first, but if you can't find the Garnier that alexis917 recommended, another good everyday use combo is Infusium 23 miracle therapy shampoo & conditioner. You can check Walgreens.com to see which locations in your area carry it. (Not sure which other stores do, but I know Walgreens has it). Good stuff :)

leilan
June 28th, 2015, 12:22 PM
So I like the look of the Garnier Fructis Triple Nutrition conditioner that I believe meteor recommended earlier. Here's a list of the ingredients:

Aqua (Water), Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Amodimethicone, Fragrance, Isopropyl Alcohol, Phenoxyethanol, Pyrus Malus Extract (Apple Fruit Extract), Benzoic Acid, Trideceth-6, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis Oil (Sweet Almond Oil), Butyrospermum Parkii Butter (Shea Butter), Olea Europaea Oil (Olive Fruit Oil), Potassium Hydroxide, Niacinamide, Pyridoxine HCl, Hexyl Cinnamal, Cetrimonium Chloride, Citric Acid, Persea Gratissima Oil (Avocado Oil), Saccharum Officinarum Extract (Sugar Cane Extract), Benzyl Alcohol, Linalool, Amyl Cinnamal, Ribes Nigrum Oil (Black Currant Seed Oil), Cl 19140 (Yellow 5), Citrus Medica Limonium Peel Extract (Lemon Peel Extract), Cl 15985 (Yellow 6), Camellia Sinensis Extract (Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract)

1. I really like the fact that behentrimonium chloride and amodimethicone are high on the list of ingredients. I believe behentrimonium chloride provides really good slip, right? And I've been reading on amodimethicone and it seems like a good cone to try. There are still a number of natural oils/extracts though; should I look for something with zero natural stuff, or would this still be a good conditioner to try?

2. If I get this conditioner (or a similar one with no natural extracts), would I have to get an SLS shampoo? I understand that they can be harsh on hair, which is why I stopped using them originally. Or could I clean my hair satisfactorily with a sulfate-free shampoo?

Edit: renia, thanks for the rec! The Infusium 23 would probably be comparable to the triple nutrition, yes?

renia22
June 28th, 2015, 12:36 PM
If I were you I'd skip the Garnier because of the avocado oil, Shea butter, olive oil, etc and go for something without all of that stuff, at least until you can get a clean slate going via clarifying & then you can start fresh and see what your hair can handle. The shampoo doesn't have to be SLS, SLES or ALS/ ALES should be fine, as long as it doesn't have a lot of other buildup potential ingredients. The Infusium Miracle Oil is excellent, but it's been a while since I have tried Garnier so I can't say exactly (I prefer the European Ultra Doux to the American ones, but it's hard to find in the U.S.). But from what I remember and in comparing ingredients, I do think it's a lot lighter, yet still leaves hair clean and soft & tangle free. I do alternate at the moment with Pantene Aqua Light, just to be on the safe side.

mindwiped
June 28th, 2015, 01:19 PM
Thank you for the suggestions! I will have to change my way of thinking now. I have gradually moved away from conventional SLS products in favor of more natural products; how ironic if that turns out to be what has been giving me such a headache these past few years.f.

Sorry, it's my soap box...not all natural things are better...I sure wouldn't use poison ivy extract, even though its 100% natural. I enjoy, and do use products that have plant based ingredients, but I won't use something natural without knowing what it is and why it's better than the conventional product.

leilan
June 28th, 2015, 01:52 PM
Sorry, it's my soap box...not all natural things are better...I sure wouldn't use poison ivy extract, even though its 100% natural. I enjoy, and do use products that have plant based ingredients, but I won't use something natural without knowing what it is and why it's better than the conventional product.

That's an excellent point. I suppose I feel the same way about synthetic ingredients; I want to know why they're included, and what effects they could have. It's a bit hypocritical of me to not hold so-called natural ingredients to the same standards!

leilan
June 28th, 2015, 01:52 PM
Personally, I've not got a favourite shampoo but I really like L'Oreal Elvive Full Restore 5 conditioner. It's got amodimethicone (a 'cone that won't build-up as it only sticks to damaged spots on hair, not itself) and lots of protein (which is often good for fine and/or damaged hair and which my hair loves but lots of people's hair hates).

Is this (http://www.lorealparisusa.com/en/Products/Hair/Hair-Care/Shampoo-Conditioner/Advanced-Haircare-Total-Repair-5-Restoring-Conditioner.aspx#ingredients) the US equivalent of the Elvive?

lapushka
June 28th, 2015, 02:35 PM
So I like the look of the Garnier Fructis Triple Nutrition conditioner that I believe meteor recommended earlier. Here's a list of the ingredients:

Aqua (Water), Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Amodimethicone, Fragrance, Isopropyl Alcohol, Phenoxyethanol, Pyrus Malus Extract (Apple Fruit Extract), Benzoic Acid, Trideceth-6, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis Oil (Sweet Almond Oil), Butyrospermum Parkii Butter (Shea Butter), Olea Europaea Oil (Olive Fruit Oil), Potassium Hydroxide, Niacinamide, Pyridoxine HCl, Hexyl Cinnamal, Cetrimonium Chloride, Citric Acid, Persea Gratissima Oil (Avocado Oil), Saccharum Officinarum Extract (Sugar Cane Extract), Benzyl Alcohol, Linalool, Amyl Cinnamal, Ribes Nigrum Oil (Black Currant Seed Oil), Cl 19140 (Yellow 5), Citrus Medica Limonium Peel Extract (Lemon Peel Extract), Cl 15985 (Yellow 6), Camellia Sinensis Extract (Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract)

1. I really like the fact that behentrimonium chloride and amodimethicone are high on the list of ingredients. I believe behentrimonium chloride provides really good slip, right? And I've been reading on amodimethicone and it seems like a good cone to try. There are still a number of natural oils/extracts though; should I look for something with zero natural stuff, or would this still be a good conditioner to try?

2. If I get this conditioner (or a similar one with no natural extracts), would I have to get an SLS shampoo? I understand that they can be harsh on hair, which is why I stopped using them originally. Or could I clean my hair satisfactorily with a sulfate-free shampoo?

Edit: renia, thanks for the rec! The Infusium 23 would probably be comparable to the triple nutrition, yes?

I like this conditioner, but I like the Herbal Essences Hello Hydration a little more, as it detangles *very* well. It has a silicone (or two) in there as well, I think. Definitely one.

And yes, I would use a SL(E)S shampoo with it!

Honestly SL(E)S is not the enemy. And I have to repeat it again - it's not about what you want, it's about what your hair (scalp) wants!

winship2
June 28th, 2015, 06:30 PM
I'm not as educated in the technical details as the rest of the helpful posters here, but your hair looks EXACTLY the same type as mine, and I do really well with the Giovanni "Eco-Chic" (terrible, terrible marketing name) line of products. I find the best control of my oily scalp with a light application of the Deep Conditioning Shampoo, and otherwise I kind of switch back and forth between the 50-50 S&C and the Tea Tree S&C in the same line. I usually use the Deep Conditioning Conditioner, but sometimes go with the Tea Tree, which is a bit lighter. Then a light application of their silicone serum.

What I DO find with this routine is that I have to comb my hair out gently when it's dry or mostly dry or it will FEEL rough. All those little curly ends will catch and tangle. But once it's combed it stays fairly smooth. It can feel a little dry if I leave it down all day, but if I put it up for work and then take it down in the evening it does really well. I don't have to clarify often with this routine, and instead of shampooing the ends just gently squeeze just a tiny tiny bit down the length as I wash the scalp.

I understand you don't want to spend a lot of money trying new things, but our hair type looks so similar with those curls at the very end and mostly straight length I thought I'd suggest it :blossom::blossom:

leilan
June 28th, 2015, 08:03 PM
I'm not as educated in the technical details as the rest of the helpful posters here, but your hair looks EXACTLY the same type as mine, and I do really well with the Giovanni "Eco-Chic" (terrible, terrible marketing name) line of products. I find the best control of my oily scalp with a light application of the Deep Conditioning Shampoo, and otherwise I kind of switch back and forth between the 50-50 S&C and the Tea Tree S&C in the same line. I usually use the Deep Conditioning Conditioner, but sometimes go with the Tea Tree, which is a bit lighter. Then a light application of their silicone serum.

What I DO find with this routine is that I have to comb my hair out gently when it's dry or mostly dry or it will FEEL rough. All those little curly ends will catch and tangle. But once it's combed it stays fairly smooth. It can feel a little dry if I leave it down all day, but if I put it up for work and then take it down in the evening it does really well. I don't have to clarify often with this routine, and instead of shampooing the ends just gently squeeze just a tiny tiny bit down the length as I wash the scalp.

I understand you don't want to spend a lot of money trying new things, but our hair type looks so similar with those curls at the very end and mostly straight length I thought I'd suggest it :blossom::blossom:

Thank you kindly for the recommendation! It's encouraging, if our hair is very similar!


I like this conditioner, but I like the Herbal Essences Hello Hydration a little more, as it detangles *very* well. It has a silicone (or two) in there as well, I think. Definitely one.

And yes, I would use a SL(E)S shampoo with it!

Honestly SL(E)S is not the enemy. And I have to repeat it again - it's not about what you want, it's about what your hair (scalp) wants!

I'm not dead-set against sulfates... I guess my hesitation is a) that it might be damaging to my hair, since it's a bit fragile, and b) that I would have to wash more often. Before I stopped using them, I was washing daily. I'm worried that their strength will throw my scalp's oil production into overdrive and I'll be greasy again.

But as you said, it's more about what my hair wants than what I want. I guess, if the tradeoff is washing daily, it will be worth it for tangle-free, happy hair!

Panth
June 29th, 2015, 03:05 AM
I have done this with plain white vinegar, is there a big difference between that and ACV?

Plain white vinegar may need a bit more diluting (as it's usually intended for pickling not use as a condiment) but otherwise, yes, IMO it works fine. Some people believe the "mother" in raw ACV is beneficial but IMO, if that is true it's probably only if you're actually drinking the stuff, not applying it. Anyway, ACV can cause lighter coloured hair to become brassy over time, so it's not ideal for white/grey/blonde hair. The main thing with acidic rinses is to not make them too strong - 1 teaspoon vinegar in 1 cup water is plenty for ACV or other condiment vinegars (e.g. white wine vinegar).


Is this (http://www.lorealparisusa.com/en/Products/Hair/Hair-Care/Shampoo-Conditioner/Advanced-Haircare-Total-Repair-5-Restoring-Conditioner.aspx#ingredients) the US equivalent of the Elvive?

It's got somewhat different ingredients, though I have the feeling that the website list can't be in order of concentration (no one would put fragrance as the fifth ingredient, right!?).

The ingredients in mine are:

Aqua/water, cetearyl alcohol, behentrimonium chloride, cetyl esters, quaternium-33, lactic acid, hydroxypropyltrimonium hydrolyzed wheat protein, phenoxyethanol, arginine, behentrimonium methosulfate, trideceth-6, chlorhexidine digluconate, limonene, linalool, benzyl alicylate, benzyl alcohol, amodimethicone, isopropyl alcohol, 2-oleamido-1,3-octadecanediol, serine, butylphenylmethylpropional, potassium hydroxide, cetrimonium chloride, cetyl alcohol, glutamic acid, hexyl cinnamal, glyceryl linoleate, glyceryl oleate, glyceryl linolenate, parfum/fragrance.

renia22
June 29th, 2015, 11:23 AM
I'm not dead-set against sulfates... I guess my hesitation is a) that it might be damaging to my hair, since it's a bit fragile, and b) that I would have to wash more often. Before I stopped using them, I was washing daily. I'm worried that their strength will throw my scalp's oil production into overdrive and I'll be greasy again.


This article by Paula Begoun might make you feel better, it dispels some of the sulfate myths that are going around.. Unless you have a legitimate allergy, as long as you use something properly formulated that doesn't tangle your hair and therefore contribute to mechanical damage (which would also be true for "sulfate free or "natural" methods), there's no reason to fear sulfates. Chances are you will be okay :)

http://www.paulaschoice.com/cosmetic-ingredient-dictionary/definition/sulfates

lapushka
June 29th, 2015, 11:38 AM
http://www.paulaschoice.com/cosmetic-ingredient-dictionary/definition/sulfates

Best article I've read in a while, on hair care products! :) Thanks for posting!

Panth
June 29th, 2015, 12:06 PM
http://www.paulaschoice.com/cosmetic-ingredient-dictionary/definition/sulfates


Best article I've read in a while, on hair care products! :) Thanks for posting!

Agreed, although as far as I'm aware the claim that all non-sulphate surfactants are just as irritating as sulphate surfactants and that it's only formulation and individual skin sensitivity that matter isn't true. Here's a post about cocoamidopropyl betaine with references (http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/06/alternatives-to-sulfate-shampoos.html). Here's another about a variety of non-sulphate surfactants, again with references (http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2012/06/are-sulfate-free-shampoos-really.html). I do agree that all the irritation tests are based on multi-day patch-testing and so aren't terribly relevant for shampoos as they are normally used.

leilan
June 29th, 2015, 12:28 PM
It's got somewhat different ingredients, though I have the feeling that the website list can't be in order of concentration (no one would put fragrance as the fifth ingredient, right!?).

I looked at a bunch of different websites, and it kinda looks like fragrance is the sixth ingredient... Who needs that much fragrance?! I'm thinking of giving it a shot anyways, since it's got so many ingredients with slip high on the list.


This article by Paula Begoun might make you feel better, it dispels some of the sulfate myths that are going around.. Unless you have a legitimate allergy, as long as you use something properly formulated that doesn't tangle your hair and therefore contribute to mechanical damage (which would also be true for "sulfate free or "natural" methods), there's no reason to fear sulfates. Chances are you will be okay :)

http://www.paulaschoice.com/cosmetic-ingredient-dictionary/definition/sulfates
Wow, that does put things into perspective. Damn you, marketing! Quit putting stupid ideas in my head!:brainbleach:

meteor
June 29th, 2015, 12:32 PM
^ Very true, Panth. :agree:

I wonder also, while we are on topic of cleansers and irritation, if alcohol (the drying kinds) is much maligned as an irritant without much foundation. According to this (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16307649) it's even less irritating to skin than SLS. :hmm: And another good thing about alcohol is that it evaporates, unlike SLS, for example. So many well-functioning products in hair care do contain alcohol and the actual research against its topical use is kind of not sufficient, no? :shrug:

Chromis
June 29th, 2015, 12:46 PM
Plain white vinegar may need a bit more diluting (as it's usually intended for pickling not use as a condiment) but otherwise, yes, IMO it works fine. Some people believe the "mother" in raw ACV is beneficial but IMO, if that is true it's probably only if you're actually drinking the stuff, not applying it. Anyway, ACV can cause lighter coloured hair to become brassy over time, so it's not ideal for white/grey/blonde hair. The main thing with acidic rinses is to not make them too strong - 1 teaspoon vinegar in 1 cup water is plenty for ACV or other condiment vinegars (e.g. white wine vinegar).


I like the raw ACV not because I think it does much different for my scalp, but because I think it smells about 1 billion times better! The regular stuff in the jugs smells like vomit to me. I know people say that it washes right out, but it seems to linger for several hours to me. I also really like that I can support local farms since they make it here, but I liked the Bragg's too before I moved somewhere with a local supply.

Depending on how hard the water is, a stronger dilution might work quite well too! In soft water, people go much, much weaker, but this is easy to play around with and at least it is something that is perfectly useful even if you don't have good results with using it for hair. In hard water, I found the acidic rinses pretty much nonnegotiable even when using drugstore products.

I'm not much help on the other suggestions though, my scalp and hair get on much better with shampoo bars than any of the conventional shampoo/conditioner combos and variants I have tried, sulphates, cones, or otherwise, but I hope you find something awesome! My standard method of trialling a product is to use it long enough to finish the bottle. This ensures that I never got a giant stash of half-used containers and makes sure that I had given it a fair chance. That also let me try changing other variables. If you change too much at the same time, it is harder to pick out which thing worked! Maybe you had a fab result with Product Foo with Oil A so you keep doing that, but really you could get a better result with Product Foo and Oil B, or maybe Product Foo was what was awesome and the oil didn't even matter.

lapushka
June 29th, 2015, 03:55 PM
^ Very true, Panth. :agree:

I wonder also, while we are on topic of cleansers and irritation, if alcohol (the drying kinds) is much maligned as an irritant without much foundation. According to this (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16307649) it's even less irritating to skin than SLS. :hmm: And another good thing about alcohol is that it evaporates, unlike SLS, for example. So many well-functioning products in hair care do contain alcohol and the actual research against its topical use is kind of not sufficient, no? :shrug:

I know there are non-drying and drying alcohols and that you don't want the drying kind in your products (like in gels for instance). Trust me, you don't want a gel with a drying alcohol! Or a mousse. You feel that in your hair!

meteor
June 29th, 2015, 04:21 PM
^ Yes, maybe. Or it could be due to those products being badly formulated or not a good match for the hairtype. It's really hard to tell... For example, I've tried moisturizers with alcohol and they work better than the ones without, but I don't know if that was a fluke.

I'm just kind of surprised by the fact that there isn't actual research to support the reputation. It's just a solvent, more effective than water. If properly formulated, this delivery system shouldn't cause a problem but allow more penetration of good ingredients at low concentrations instead. :shrug:
This is concise and covers the research on it: http://chemistscorner.com/does-alcohol-cause-skin-irritation/

(Cetyl/cetearyl/stearyl... alcohols (the moisturizing kind) are not a problem not at issue, of course. :))

leilan
June 29th, 2015, 08:40 PM
Thank you all for all of the advice, encouragement and suggestions!

I am going to try the L'Oreal Advanced Haircare Total Repair 5 shampoo and conditioner starting this week. They are fairly inexpensive and seem like a good place to start, at least.

Later on, I am going to try caffeine rinses as well, but I will wait a while before trying that.

I will post results in a few days, after clarifying and trying the new s&c. Thank you all again for your help! :heartbeat

alexis917
June 30th, 2015, 08:47 AM
Best of luck!!

meteor
June 30th, 2015, 01:12 PM
Yes, best of luck, leilan! :D And let us know how it goes! I hope the new products will help a lot. :D

That L'Oreal Total Repair 5 conditioner looks very promising, by the way. I love that "trinity" of amodimethicone, behentrimonium methosulfate, and behentrimonium chloride in top ingredients - I bet it's great for slip. Oh boy, I'm feeling enabled! :run: :lol:

leilan
August 8th, 2015, 10:37 AM
I promised an update, so here you go!

I've been using the L'Oreal Total Repair 5 shampoo and condish for about a month now. And the consensus is... it's okay.

My biggest worry about the shampoo was how my hair and scalp would react to going back on sulfates after being sulfate-free for so long. The good news is that I have been able to go the same amount of time between washes; the bad news is that I have been shedding waaay more than I was before. I don't have a ton of hair, so every strand makes a difference!

As for the conditioner: I put it on my hair and let it sit for a few minutes. When I go to wash it out, it is like silk! So smooth and no tangles. Unfortunately, that only lasts as long as the conditioner is actually on my hair. Once I rinse it out, it's back to business as usual. Lots of little tangles from the ears down, that all collect at the ends when I work them out with my fingers. I wait until my hair is fully dry to detangle, btw. I tried once using a pea-sized amount of conditioner as a leave-in, but I honestly didn't notice a difference one way or the other.

Like I said: it's okay. They didn't miraculously solve my problems, but overall they work well.

I haven't had a chance to try caffeine rinses yet, so I can't report on that. One thing I noticed, though: one day, I used a smidge of coconut oil on my ends, because they were feeling particularly rough that day. I ended up covering from my collarbone down. After a while, I noticed that there were no tangles! None. I could easily run my fingers through my hair without catching a single snarl. The downside was that my hair did look oily. I've yet to find an oil that is light enough to not make my hair look slick. I've read on the forums about camellia oil, that it's supposed to be one of the lightest oils there is. I'm thinking of giving it a go; thoughts?

Similarly, I've also noticed my hair seems a bit drier than before I started with this s&c. Someone earlier in this thread suggested misting and oiling to restore moisture. I may try that with camellia oil. Alternately, maybe there is a leave-in/serum/spray that might help with moisture and slip?

Thanks for reading!

ravenreed
August 8th, 2015, 10:50 AM
I use CO method to cleanse my hair, which is great for my scalp. Sulfate shampoos give me rebound oilies. Alas, my hair needs a good shampooing from time to time. Periodically I shampoo from my ears down, and cleanse my scalp with less harsh methods. ETA: Shampoo also makes me shed more, so avoiding it on my scalp is all around the best way to go.


Thank you kindly for the recommendation! It's encouraging, if our hair is very similar!



I'm not dead-set against sulfates... I guess my hesitation is a) that it might be damaging to my hair, since it's a bit fragile, and b) that I would have to wash more often. Before I stopped using them, I was washing daily. I'm worried that their strength will throw my scalp's oil production into overdrive and I'll be greasy again.

But as you said, it's more about what my hair wants than what I want. I guess, if the tradeoff is washing daily, it will be worth it for tangle-free, happy hair!

Veridical Angel
August 8th, 2015, 11:36 AM
I agree. Shorter hair is more work. Don't cut that hair. Private message me if you need to.

leilan
August 8th, 2015, 11:38 AM
ravenreed, CO washing might help with the shedding. I'll have to try that. It's distressing when you're rinsing out your hair and this thick lock of shedded hair comes out! Before, I was used to some shedding, but this is more than I like. My hair in a braid is this dinky little thing.

Veridical Angel
August 8th, 2015, 11:38 AM
Oh I see your problem right there.amodimethicone. do not use anything that has dimethicone in it

leilan
August 8th, 2015, 11:45 AM
Why not, Veridical Angel? It was recommended to me earlier in this thread, since I'm looking for lots of slip. As I understand it, amodimethicone doesn't seem to build up, just fills in the gaps in the hair shafts.

Veridical Angel
August 8th, 2015, 11:50 AM
Dimethicone is what they use in bathtub caulking. So even though it may make your hair slick, it is doing more damage. That is why it is very important never ever ever to use Pantene. They also put wax in their products so your hair look smooth and silky. But we all know what happens to wax when it hardens.

Veridical Angel
August 8th, 2015, 11:54 AM
I would suggest using olive oil or argon oil on your hair if you are trying to get its ok. I switched from coconut oil because it seemed to get my hair dirtier quicker. You should wear some type of oil on your hair everyday, because it will protect it. You don't need very much. Just rub a dime size in your hands and over your hair.

Veridical Angel
August 8th, 2015, 11:55 AM
I would suggest using olive oil or argon oil on your hair if you are trying to get its ok. I switched from coconut oil because it seemed to get my hair dirtier quicker. You should wear some type of oil on your hair everyday, because it will protect it. You don't need very much. Just rub a dime size in your hands and over your hair.

Get it silky. Sorry voice typing not too good.

winship2
August 8th, 2015, 12:03 PM
I see that you and I are both 1b types. I have to wash my WL+ hair every day or the ends get dry and tangly. It's pretty silky if I wash every day (Giovanni Deep Moisture shampoo, diluted, followed by Giovanni Tea Tree Triple Treat conditioner, followed by a vinegar rinse and a little Giovanni De-Frizz silicone serum). I find blow-drying keeps my hair smoother and more tangle-free. Just some thoughts--

meteor
August 8th, 2015, 12:05 PM
Leilan, I think your plan to use a light oil on top of slightly damp ends is a great one. You can use a cream (a light leave-in conditioner) as well, to help lock in moisture.

The lightest oil I've tried is probably grapeseed, but it qualifies as a drying oil, so I need to make sure not to use too much. Mineral oil is pretty great too. Literally a drop or 2 is enough.

If all natural oils are too heavy for you, I'd definitely go for coney serums instead - they are often formulated to be lighter and more appropriate as leave-ins. They also don't attract lint and dust as much as standard oils.



Why not, Veridical Angel? It was recommended to me earlier in this thread, since I'm looking for lots of slip. As I understand it, amodimethicone doesn't seem to build up, just fills in the gaps in the hair shafts.

You are right, amodimethicone is a polymer-type silicone that binds to damaged areas but not supposed to accumulate on top of itself (more on which ones are more likely to build up is on this silicone solubility list: http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2014/04/silicone-ingredient-solubility-list.html)


Dimethicone is what they use in bathtub caulking. So even though it may make your hair slick, it is doing more damage. That is why it is very important never ever ever to use Pantene. They also put wax in their products so your hair look smooth and silky. But we all know what happens to wax when it hardens.

How does it cause damage? I try to avoid all damage, and I've been searching for any research to support this claim about silicones for ages, but I haven't found anything yet. If anybody can find something, please share! :flower:

Theobroma
August 8th, 2015, 12:21 PM
One thing I noticed, though: one day, I used a smidge of coconut oil on my ends, because they were feeling particularly rough that day. I ended up covering from my collarbone down. After a while, I noticed that there were no tangles! None. I could easily run my fingers through my hair without catching a single snarl. The downside was that my hair did look oily. I've yet to find an oil that is light enough to not make my hair look slick. I've read on the forums about camellia oil, that it's supposed to be one of the lightest oils there is. I'm thinking of giving it a go; thoughts?

No idea about camellia oil, but when my ends were grabby and tangly from heat damage I got good results from putting a TINY amount of pure shea butter on the ends. Shea's easy to overdo, so you want to start with really teeny amounts, just enough to make your fingertips slightly shiny, and it will build up with co-washing (on which see below for more), but even soap will keep that from happening in my experience.


ravenreed, CO washing might help with the shedding. I'll have to try that. It's distressing when you're rinsing out your hair and this thick lock of shedded hair comes out! Before, I was used to some shedding, but this is more than I like. My hair in a braid is this dinky little thing.

I used to co-wash and my hair loved it, but my scalp responded by letting go ridiculously huge wads of hair in every wash. By the time I realised what the problem was I'd lost fully 40% of my thickness. So if you try co, please be careful and be aware that some people just can't. (Same goes for oiling one's scalp, incidentally.)

Veridical Angel
August 8th, 2015, 12:24 PM
Dimethicone and wax break your hair. Your hair was not made for all these chemicals. My hair is very thin now. You can see in my profile pic.long but thin. That was on Mothers day 2014. I have not been staying away from dimethicone for the last couple of years and have lost about half the thickness of my hair. My circumference right now is 1.5 inches. In the previous pick in 2009, it was 4.5 inches. I can blame it on being almost 50, but the truth is I have not stayed away from bad hair products.

leilan
August 8th, 2015, 12:24 PM
I see that you and I are both 1b types. I have to wash my WL+ hair every day or the ends get dry and tangly. It's pretty silky if I wash every day (Giovanni Deep Moisture shampoo, diluted, followed by Giovanni Tea Tree Triple Treat conditioner, followed by a vinegar rinse and a little Giovanni De-Frizz silicone serum). I find blow-drying keeps my hair smoother and more tangle-free. Just some thoughts--

I suppose I could try washing more often, although my ends get tangly as soon as they are dry from the shower... You are one of several people who have liked the Giovanni products, though. I'll remember that for the next time I need new s&c.


Leilan, I think your plan to use a light oil on top of slightly damp ends is a great one. You can use a cream (a light leave-in conditioner) as well, to help lock in moisture.

The lightest oil I've tried is probably grapeseed, but it qualifies as a drying oil, so I need to make sure not to use too much. Mineral oil is pretty great too. Literally a drop or 2 is enough.

If all natural oils are too heavy for you, I'd definitely go for coney serums instead - they are often formulated to be lighter and more appropriate as leave-ins. They also don't attract lint and dust as much as standard oils.

Cool. I will plan on trying that next. I may have already asked you this, but do you have any serum products that you'd recommend, or at least what to look for? I've never used them before, and don't know what to look for in the ingredients.

Veridical Angel
August 8th, 2015, 12:25 PM
Dimethicone and wax break your hair. Your hair was not made for all these chemicals. My hair is very thin now. You can see in my profile pic.long but thin. That was on Mothers day 2014. I have not been staying away from dimethicone for the last couple of years and have lost about half the thickness of my hair. My circumference right now is 1.5 inches. In the previous pick in 2009, it was 4.5 inches. I can blame it on being almost 50, but the truth is I have not stayed away from bad hair products.

I'm sorry, Mother's Day 2015

Veridical Angel
August 8th, 2015, 12:27 PM
If you can stand it, I would suggest the no poo method. Baking soda and water to wash, apple cider vinegar and water to rinse

leilan
August 8th, 2015, 12:38 PM
If you can stand it, I would suggest the no poo method. Baking soda and water to wash, apple cider vinegar and water to rinse

I tried this a few years ago. Never got past the greasy stage. My hair was lank and unmanageable.

meteor
August 8th, 2015, 12:45 PM
Hmm, dimethicone and waxes are certainly coating, which could create build-up if used in high amounts and not clarified periodically. But other than that, I think they should be fine in small doses. I haven't yet seen any mechanisms by which they can break or damage hair. :hmm:

But baking soda is abrasive and also very alkaline, which is problematic for skin and hair. The scalp pH is 5.5, and the hair shaft pH is 3.67 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4158629/). High pH products can temporarily disrupt skin's barrier function, which can lead to dryness, inflammation... and also increases negative charge of hair fiber, making it more likely to have static and to be harder to detangle (which ultimately increases mechanical damage from combing/handling).

About hair thinning so fast, I'm terribly sorry! :grouphug: I would really recommend seeing a doctor to do full bloodwork and check for every possible culprit (low thyroid function or anemia or dietary deficiencies or auto-immune conditions are not uncommon). Products can be an issue for thinning, but mostly due to reactions/sensitivities to specific ingredients.

leilan
August 8th, 2015, 12:52 PM
The other thing I've long considered trying is cassia. Would I have to clarify before using it? I've heard it's a great conditioner. Would the amodimethicone block cassia from being absorbed by the hair shaft?

meteor
August 8th, 2015, 01:01 PM
^ I wish I could help on cassia. :oops: I heard some people refer to it as super-conditioning and the Holy Grail and others saying that it was somewhat drying. Either way, I'd increase the use of oils around things like cassia, henna or any other herbs, just in case, to help counteract potential dryness.

Amodimethicone (or any other cone) is not going to create an impermeable barrier. Silicones and oils are occlusive, of course, but they create only a mild permeable barrier and can't completely block water and other things from penetrating.

Here is a great ongoing thread on Cassia: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=406

Veridical Angel
August 8th, 2015, 01:44 PM
For the baking soda, you have to put it in water to dissolve it, and that's why you follow it with the apple cider vinegar rinse. Apple cider vinegar restores the pH of your skin. So if you use a diluted amount of ACV as a facial toner, all your acne will go away

Veridical Angel
August 8th, 2015, 01:46 PM
I measured my hair today and it is down to the middle of my thighs. I'm ordering some collagen so maybe that'll help the thickness

KittyBird
August 8th, 2015, 01:57 PM
For the baking soda, you have to put it in water to dissolve it, and that's why you follow it with the apple cider vinegar rinse. Apple cider vinegar restores the pH of your skin. So if you use a diluted amount of ACV as a facial toner, all your acne will go away

I think it's a good idea to read this blog post (http://blog.kanelstrand.com/2014/01/baking-soda-destroyed-my-hair.html). Baking soda is by no means a natural way of washing hair, and I have no idea why so many people think so. It's true that the acv rinse will bring the pH back to normal, but it's quite harsh to take the hair from a high pH to a low pH, and doing it frequently is not a good idea. I used shampoo bars, which are very alkaline, and acv rinses for a long while because I thought they were more natural and better for my hair, but in the end I got hair that was brittle and broke off if I just looked at it wrong. It felt like I had completely destroyed my hair.

lapushka
August 8th, 2015, 02:12 PM
Dimethicone is what they use in bathtub caulking. So even though it may make your hair slick, it is doing more damage. That is why it is very important never ever ever to use Pantene. They also put wax in their products so your hair look smooth and silky. But we all know what happens to wax when it hardens.

On this board there is no anti-silicone "movement". We agree to disagree. Some use it and have great benefits, others do not. It's as simple as that. Bringing myths into it is certainly not going to help. Just my 2cts. :blossom:

leilan
August 8th, 2015, 02:47 PM
^ I wish I could help on cassia. :oops: I heard some people refer to it as super-conditioning and the Holy Grail and others saying that it was somewhat drying. Either way, I'd increase the use of oils around things like cassia, henna or any other herbs, just in case, to help counteract potential dryness.

Amodimethicone (or any other cone) is not going to create an impermeable barrier. Silicones and oils are occlusive, of course, but they create only a mild permeable barrier and can't completely block water and other things from penetrating.

Here is a great ongoing thread on Cassia: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=406

Nonsense, my dear, you've been a great help, fielding my tons of questions! I'll check out the cassia thread, thanks for the link. :bowtome:

Also, I have some mineral oil that I've been using for my face, and I just dampened my hair and put a drop on. I tried this a while ago and it got greasy, but apparently just using a single drop isn't too much, because my hair is not feeling oily, but it's nice and untangled! Thanks for suggesting this, mayhaps it will save me from trying camellia oil, which is pricey. So hurray for that!

lapushka
August 8th, 2015, 03:10 PM
Also, I have some mineral oil that I've been using for my face, and I just dampened my hair and put a drop on. I tried this a while ago and it got greasy, but apparently just using a single drop isn't too much, because my hair is not feeling oily, but it's nice and untangled! Thanks for suggesting this, mayhaps it will save me from trying camellia oil, which is pricey. So hurray for that!

Did someone say baby oil? :) I use it sometimes for LOC (2/3 drops for my entire almost classic length) and for ROO (10 drops), but that's rinsed out, so it can be more drops. Baby oil is so worth it. It removes make-up, moisturizes body, face, and hair! Dang, I sound like a commercial. :lol:

If LOC & ROO confuse you, it's all in my signature!

leilan
August 8th, 2015, 05:43 PM
lapushka, I think it was on your recommendation that I tried mineral oil! :lol: Didn't do anything for me as a rinse-out, but I'll be very pleased if it tames my tangles.

Veridical Angel
August 8th, 2015, 07:59 PM
Good thing I don't bank at that bank, sis. Letting you know from experience. Go ahead and use it.

lapushka
August 9th, 2015, 04:31 AM
lapushka, I think it was on your recommendation that I tried mineral oil! :lol: Didn't do anything for me as a rinse-out, but I'll be very pleased if it tames my tangles.

Well, you can only try and see if it works for you. If it doesn't, then no biggie, but at least you tried. :)

dogzdinner
August 9th, 2015, 05:06 AM
I think alot of the problem is that healthy long hair often isnt the silky, shiny tumbling mass that you see on commercials and in movies. I remember seeing a newspaper article about some women who ditched all their products and went natural and the difference in their hair was really noticeable. Personally Id rather have hair that felt normal, not loaded down with sprays, serums or mousses and then work on my bun and braid technique so it looked pretty up.

renia22
August 9th, 2015, 09:54 AM
Sorry to hear you weren't wowed with the L'Oreal, Leilan. I tried a trial size of it this summer also and thought it was just okay too. I tried the L'Oreal Nutrigloss around the same time and thought that one was actually much better. Also, have you seen the Pantene or Herbal Essences threads over in the Conventional Products section? I'm thinking with your hair type, you might like a silicone free shampoo, but that contains some poly quats and still detangles (those clear shampoos that still feel somewhat conditioning, but aren't as heavy as the milky, silicone laden ones), paired with a conditioner that has some silicones. Examples would be something like Pantene Aqua Light shampoo & conditioner or Herbal Essences Smooth collection (the "retro" one in the pink bottle). Something light and suitable for finer hair types, but still detangling. Anyways, hope you find something you like and good luck with the oil search as well.

Hypnotica
August 9th, 2015, 10:19 AM
Why not, Veridical Angel? It was recommended to me earlier in this thread, since I'm looking for lots of slip. As I understand it, amodimethicone doesn't seem to build up, just fills in the gaps in the hair shafts.

I believe that her stance is based anectotal evidence.

Anyway - I have fine hair but many strands. I need to be careful about oiling and cones because if I overdo them, my hair becomes dry and tangly (apparently my hair gets buildup very easy).

I use Tresemme Naturals (both poo and condish). When my hair is still damp put no longer dripping, I apply either coconut oil or a coney leave-in serum. I find that serums are easier to dosage.

Every night I mist my hair with ordinary water and sleep with it in a twist (which I place under a pillow so I won't strangle myself during sleep.) I find that I don't mist my hair every day, it ends up being very dry.

yogagirl
August 9th, 2015, 10:26 AM
Our hair types seem to be quite different, but I will share my secret (not really) trick anyway. You never know! And partially they are free, so maybe worth a try.

Damp bunning! (That's the "free" part :thumbsup:) After I shower, I put my damp hair in a top bun for about an hour. Then I take the bun down and my hair already feels super silky. Only thing is, it won't stay like that UNLESS you then add leave-in condish to seal in the moisture. It might help your problem with your ends getting tangly after they dry.

My leave in of choice is Joico K-Pak Color Therapy Restorative Oil. Even though my hair is not color treated, I love the stuff and it work like a charm for me. But other leave-ins or oils will work too.

Good luck!

ravenreed
August 9th, 2015, 10:34 AM
Yes, some people shed ridiculous amounts from CO washing, or from oiling, or from using sulfate shampoos. I only mentioned my routine because my hair loves sulfates but my scalp hates them. Sometime we have to treat the two separately, unfortunately. So that is why I only shampoo from my ears down, and only when my hair feels dry and tangly. Really, any other method that agrees with the OP's scalp could be substituted for CO-ing.ETA: Both scalp oiling and shampoos make me shed like a molting wildebeest. I only realized how much I was shedding when I switched over to CO method and my shed rate plummeted. It was one of several reasons that I stuck with CO method.


No idea about camellia oil, but when my ends were grabby and tangly from heat damage I got good results from putting a TINY amount of pure shea butter on the ends. Shea's easy to overdo, so you want to start with really teeny amounts, just enough to make your fingertips slightly shiny, and it will build up with co-washing (on which see below for more), but even soap will keep that from happening in my experience.



I used to co-wash and my hair loved it, but my scalp responded by letting go ridiculously huge wads of hair in every wash. By the time I realised what the problem was I'd lost fully 40% of my thickness. So if you try co, please be careful and be aware that some people just can't. (Same goes for oiling one's scalp, incidentally.)

Theobroma
August 9th, 2015, 10:35 AM
I used shampoo bars, which are very alkaline, and acv rinses for a long while because I thought they were more natural and better for my hair, but in the end I got hair that was brittle and broke off if I just looked at it wrong. It felt like I had completely destroyed my hair.

I've been using soap and vinegar rinses exclusively for over two years now. My hair has never been healthier or silkier. The temporary exposure to the alkalinity of the soap clearly doesn't bother it at all. But no one method works equally well for everyone.

leilan
August 9th, 2015, 12:50 PM
I think alot of the problem is that healthy long hair often isnt the silky, shiny tumbling mass that you see on commercials and in movies. I remember seeing a newspaper article about some women who ditched all their products and went natural and the difference in their hair was really noticeable. Personally Id rather have hair that felt normal, not loaded down with sprays, serums or mousses and then work on my bun and braid technique so it looked pretty up.

I think you're exactly right, dogzdinner. Marketing and commercials can worm their way into your head! I have often struggled with hair envy, and whenever I catch myself doing it, I just have to remind myself that my hair is unique, and it's not going to have certain characteristics no matter what. I agree that loaded-down hair often doesn't feel healthy.


Sorry to hear you weren't wowed with the L'Oreal, Leilan. I tried a trial size of it this summer also and thought it was just okay too. I tried the L'Oreal Nutrigloss around the same time and thought that one was actually much better. Also, have you seen the Pantene or Herbal Essences threads over in the Conventional Products section? I'm thinking with your hair type, you might like a silicone free shampoo, but that contains some poly quats and still detangles (those clear shampoos that still feel somewhat conditioning, but aren't as heavy as the milky, silicone laden ones), paired with a conditioner that has some silicones. Examples would be something like Pantene Aqua Light shampoo & conditioner or Herbal Essences Smooth collection (the "retro" one in the pink bottle). Something light and suitable for finer hair types, but still detangling. Anyways, hope you find something you like and good luck with the oil search as well.

Thank you so much for the suggestions! After trying the sulfate shampoo, I think my scalp likes the gentler shampoos better. I'll check out those boards! On a related note, why don't they sell more trial size shampoos and conditioners? It takes me months to go through a normal bottle.


Yes, some people shed ridiculous amounts from CO washing, or from oiling, or from using sulfate shampoos. I only mentioned my routine because my hair loves sulfates but my scalp hates them. Sometime we have to treat the two separately, unfortunately. So that is why I only shampoo from my ears down, and only when my hair feels dry and tangly. Really, any other method that agrees with the OP's scalp could be substituted for CO-ing.ETA: Both scalp oiling and shampoos make me shed like a molting wildebeest. I only realized how much I was shedding when I switched over to CO method and my shed rate plummeted. It was one of several reasons that I stuck with CO method.

"shed like a molting wildebeest" :laugh: I love it! I just showered and decided to give CO-washing a try, just to see how my hair/scalp reacted. My hair is still wet, but I did shed WAY less than I have been with the sulfate poo. We'll see if it lasts, but boy was it nice not having to throw a big clump of hair in the bin!

ravenreed
August 9th, 2015, 01:30 PM
I hope it helps. The trick for me is to smoosh the conditioner into my scalp, massage it in a bit, let it sit while I shower and shave, and then rinse until every trace is off my scalp. I always follow with an ACV rinse, but I have very hard water here. My hair gets greasy within 24 hours when I use shampoo on my scalp. With CO method, I can easily go every other day. On the rare occasion I don't have time to wash my hair, the third day is more oily than I prefer, but I could wash just my bangs/fringe, or I use dry shampoo. For some reason my hair looks oilier in an updo than it does down, so I don't like to go more than two days without washing it unless I am willing to let it run amok for the day. I find that washing every other day keeps my ends from drying out as well, so I am happy with my routine. I also recommend catnip rinses for helping with split ends if that is a concern.

One other thing, I always brush my hair both before and after washing it. I use a Tangle Teaser and never get breakage, even on wet hair. I find that if I don't comb my tangles out right away, they are harder to remove later. However, I have a very wavy, coarse hair type that is prone to tangling at the drop of a hat so that might not be necessary for everyone.

renia22
August 9th, 2015, 01:35 PM
^^ I wish more companies would offer trial sizes too, the worst is buying a full size of something, only to not like it that much and be stuck with it. That stinks about the shedding. Lots of people believe shampoos and conditioners don't do that, but I've noticed myself that my hair shedding varies wildly depending on what I'm using, sometimes even with similar ingredients. I currently have both Paul Mitchell Shampoo 2 & Rusk clarifying (one uses SLES, the other ALS, as main ingredients), and I shed hardly anything with the Paul Mitchell, and a ton with the Rusk. That L'Oreal Total Repair 5 contains both SLS & SLES, perhaps you would do better with a gentler sulfate if you still end up with issues down the road with sulfate free. Maybe avoid the SLS or ALS formulas, and stick with something with just ALES or SLES, preferably ph balanced with a relatively short ingredient list? Also sometimes heavy fragrances are irritating to some people, and it's not always easy to find out of a product is ph balanced or not, or to figure out what the real issue is with a product. At any rate, hope you find something you like! Maybe the co-washing will end up working for you :)

p.s. So I just check, and the Prell shampoo that I like contains ALS just like Rusk, and that one doesn't make me shed at all. Go figure :/

vpatt
August 9th, 2015, 05:15 PM
I had a really, really bad shed last year which I attributed to a fast......now I wonder if it could have been due in all or part to what I was washing my hair with.....only problem is.....I don't remember what I was using. But shouldn't it grow back if it was the wash method/product? According to my research hair can shed from fasting but will grow back. I do have lots of new hair, but it still seems thinner than before the shed......or is it too soon for all of it to have started back in? I know my age may play a part, also.

lapushka
August 10th, 2015, 03:22 PM
Well, calculate where a year of growth will get you; that's how long the new hairs are supposed to be.

RavenRose
August 10th, 2015, 05:42 PM
My hair is like yours also! Baby fine, easily damaged, with a ton of new growth and random breakage. Which means it becomes rough and tangle very quickly!

For many years I was using Pantene pro v S&C- but never clarified, so hair became straw like- and I chopped my tail bone length hair to my shoulders. I tried a variety of different very heavy S&C meant for smoothing/sleeking/damage repair, but always made my hair a heavy grease ball.

I developed a sensitivity to SLS- so I played around with many different types of sulfate free products, mostly Natural types- but they just weighted my hair down, and made them almost sticky. I was still trying to focus on heavy conditioning and repair. My hair is not very porous, so products just build up, creating more tangles.

I started using Henna, which improved the strength and shine of my hair drastically. It also helped with the tangles.

For about 7 or 8 months I switched to the No Poo baking soda/ACV method, but even though my hair was much lighter, and no longer weighted down, it felt horribly rough after a while, it actually changed my hair texture to a 1c/2a and the greasy scalp never adjusted. Even with the Henna. Baking soda is so horrible for fine hair! DO NOT USE!

I went back to natural sulfate free stuff, but stuff that was meant for fine greasy hair. lighter conditioners, and my hair improved. I also discovered that most SLS free shampoos geared towards damage are loaded with proteins- with the henna, was way to much. Also bees wax and sunflower oils are way to heavy!

Recently I am using a softening S&C line from Burt's bees called GUD- So far it has been the one that has made my hair the happiest. It does have sodium coco- sulphate, but does not irritate my skin, nor lots of heavy oils or waxes, and just a touch of protein.

I use the shampoo on my scalp only, and the conditioner from the ears down only. I will often add a bit more watered down conditioner on the very ends of my hair as a leave in, and add a couple drops of argon/shea (some light cones in the mix) oil on my damp ends. I do gently comb through my hair with a brush while still damp and again if it gets mused up while drying, (I can feel them cringe) with a BBB, if I don't it is just a big tangle and feels rougher, and a pain to deal with. My hair is always silky soft for 2 days after a wash until the grease takes over.

Most oils make my hair crunchy, even my own scalp oil, So I can only use the lightest types, and nowhere near my scalp. I also live out in the country, so between hair water and build up I need to clarify at least once a month, followed by a deep conditioning. Also about once a week I use Aussie's 3 minute on my length.

leilan
August 11th, 2015, 02:13 PM
I hope it helps. The trick for me is to smoosh the conditioner into my scalp, massage it in a bit, let it sit while I shower and shave, and then rinse until every trace is off my scalp.

I think I didn't rinse well enough, even though I spent extra time on it. Once my hair was dry (which took forever on the top of my head- normally it takes maybe 15 minutes) it felt coated, like I didn't get all the conditioner off. I ended up showering the next day because I couldn't stand it. I washed with my old sulfate-free shampoo, and had more shedding than with the CO, but less than with the L'Oreal shampoo. I might try again and rinse super-extra-mega-thoroughly... Probably the L'Oreal conditioner isn't a great one to use for CO. I loved that I hardly shed at all, but I couldn't stand my hair feeling coated. :shrug:


^^ I wish more companies would offer trial sizes too, the worst is buying a full size of something, only to not like it that much and be stuck with it. That stinks about the shedding. Lots of people believe shampoos and conditioners don't do that, but I've noticed myself that my hair shedding varies wildly depending on what I'm using, sometimes even with similar ingredients.

I know pretty quickly after starting a new product whether it will work for me or not, and it's so annoying having to use up something that doesn't work great, simply to avoid wasting any. Ah, well. The extra shedding certainly bummed me out. I'd be happy if I never shed at all... my length is pretty sparse! I find it very interesting that the SLS/SLES shampoo seemed to make my scalp shed drastically more than normal. I'll have to find something else that works better.

RavenRose, are you my twin? :bigeyes: I also used to use Pantene Pro V, and tried baking soda/vinegar... There are a lot of similarities between our hair histories! I ordered some cassia, and am going to experiment with that to see if it will help the health of my hair. You mentioned using lighter conditioners meant for greasy hair- maybe this is one of my problems. I tend towards products formulated for 'repair'; I guess I figured, all those nourishing, healing ingredients surely would help, right? But maybe they are too much for my hair, which has no damage. What do you use for deep conditioning? I'm still trying to find a good one.

RavenRose
August 11th, 2015, 05:12 PM
Yeah the biggest issue for my hair is stuff quickly builds up, before my recent escapade with color oops and chemical lightening to diminish the henna, I never needed leave in, and rarely hair oil- right now I am using them to help protect my battered ends. ( I usually get about APL-BSL and because it is so damaged do something stupid- 18 months ago it was not one but 2 perms a week apart. :disgust:, 2 years ago I stopped the Baking soda, so still have some of that on my ends also)

It took me many years to figure out that all the heavy reparative conditioners were making my hair more grabby, causing more tangles and breakage. Some times volumizing conditioners are lighter or stuff targeted for fine/limp.

I did find Henna To be great! It thickened my and strengthen my hair, but I just got sick of the dark orange and upkeep. Orange is the worst color for me, and It never got to the lovely burgundy color that would have suited me better. I know Cassia has many of the same conditioning properties, I have thought about getting some cassia and mixing up a gloss with the Henna I still have to smooth out my grow out line, now that I have lightened my hair to a more flattering tone.

As for Deep Conditioner I am using an SMT (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=128), but with a tiny bit of dissolved gelatin in the mix, since I need a bit more protein after clarifying.