Hair dry/tangly, but too oily after oil treatments... recommendations?

[amino]

I'm allergic to titanium dioxide (or assuming I am—it makes my ears very itchy), and my doctor recommended baby shampoo, so I'm using Aveeno's baby conditioning shampoo. I typically wash my hair 1-2 times a week (down my back or over my head, mainly scalp then running shampoo through the rest of my length), squeeze excess water out with a towel, use a little coconut oil on my length, and detangle either when it's damp (always with coconut oil) or when it is dry. If I don't use the coconut oil, it's like my hair is possessed—as soon as I think I'm done detangling and run the comb through my hair one more time, I find more knots. The problem is when I wash my hair "too" often or when I've oiled. When I wash too often or use too much shampoo, it feels literally squeaky in the shower, and I hate touching it. I don't exactly know what it feels like dry because I oil it lightly right after I get out of the shower.

After I've done an oil treatment, I'm always worried about shampooing too little—and thus having to choose between disgusting looking hair or washing again two days in a row, or shampooing too much and completely reversing the benefits of a hot oil treatment. And I can't really feel the difference until my hair is completely dry! Lately, (probably because I'm traveling and have more sun exposure than usual), my hair seems drier, but I don't want to have too much grease/oil on my hair because then I'm not sure my shampoo can clean it out properly.


I'm wondering, is this unmanageability because of the lack of 'cones? Or is it because it's conditioning shampoo and not specifically made for properly caring for long hair? Am I washing my hair wrong, even?


As soon as I get home (next week), I'm going on a hunt to find myself a better shampoo—and conditioner. Based on the info above and anything else you ladies and gentlemen might like to ask, do you have any recommendations for me? Should I try and go back to cones? Find a more moisturizing shampoo? (Or should it have proteins? I don't even know how to figure out what my hair is lacking.) I don't feel like I had these problems when my hair was above APL, but now I'm hovering at BSL and it's getting to be a pain to manage, which is stressful.

I'm tempted to try soap berries also... has anyone had any luck with those?

[alexis917]

Too much oil. Consider an SMT after clarifying, maybe? Remember, oils are occlusives and do NOT directly moisturize. They can only seal in existing moisture. It's essentially a more natural silicone. So you're just putting a layer over your hair, preventing anything else from penetrating, then adding more layers.

[Panth]

Also be aware that most baby shampoos are moderately alkaline in pH (optimal pH for eyes, so that they won't sting) whereas the optimal pH for scalp skin is moderately acidic. Although I understand your reasoning for choosing them, do be aware that baby shampoos are not intrinsically gentle on hair/skin, they're usually simply formulated to be gentle for eyes.

[ExpectoPatronum]

I think while your hair is being a tangly mess, it's best to avoid protein treatments as that can make dryness and tangles worse.

I also think the baby shampoo could be causing your tangling. I used to use that stuff after swimming to strip my hair, and I was always left with horrible tangles. You might want to look for something more moisturizing, or give cowashing a try. The As I Am coconut cowash is great for dry, tangly hair. You can also go cheap and use a Suave Naturals conditioner. For shampoos, I'm quite attached to the Shea Moisture line.

For moisturizing conditioners, I've always been a fan of Tresemme. They have a couple cone-free options if you're going that route that are wonderful, but you'll probably have some luck with any of their conditioners. I love their Perfectly Undone conditioner. It's cone-free but has the slip of one that's filled with cones.

Trying to figure out what your hair needs can be a pain. It's something we all struggle with, but with this forum of knowledgeable people, I'm sure you'll find a solution soon. HTH :blossom:

[amino]

Too much oil. Consider an SMT after clarifying, maybe? Remember, oils are occlusives and do NOT directly moisturize. They can only seal in existing moisture. It's essentially a more natural silicone. So you're just putting a layer over your hair, preventing anything else from penetrating, then adding more layers.
Oh, okay! That makes sense. Should I stop using the coconut oil then?


Also be aware that most baby shampoos are moderately alkaline in pH (optimal pH for eyes, so that they won't sting) whereas the optimal pH for scalp skin is moderately acidic. Although I understand your reasoning for choosing them, do be aware that baby shampoos are not intrinsically gentle on hair/skin, they're usually simply formulated to be gentle for eyes.
Thanks, Panth! :) I'm curious whether adding a little bit of acid, like lemon juice (which I happen to have nearby, or vinegar), would help counteract that?


I think while your hair is being a tangly mess, it's best to avoid protein treatments as that can make dryness and tangles worse.

I also think the baby shampoo could be causing your tangling. I used to use that stuff after swimming to strip my hair, and I was always left with horrible tangles. You might want to look for something more moisturizing, or give cowashing a try. The As I Am coconut cowash is great for dry, tangly hair. You can also go cheap and use a Suave Naturals conditioner. For shampoos, I'm quite attached to the Shea Moisture line.

For moisturizing conditioners, I've always been a fan of Tresemme. They have a couple cone-free options if you're going that route that are wonderful, but you'll probably have some luck with any of their conditioners. I love their Perfectly Undone conditioner. It's cone-free but has the slip of one that's filled with cones.

Trying to figure out what your hair needs can be a pain. It's something we all struggle with, but with this forum of knowledgeable people, I'm sure you'll find a solution soon. HTH :blossom:
Thank you! The trouble is that typically my hair is crazy soft—but I haven't been keeping track of it very well lately (yay college?) and so I have no idea exactly what I did to bring this on.

[Panth]

Thanks, Panth! :) I'm curious whether adding a little bit of acid, like lemon juice (which I happen to have nearby, or vinegar), would help counteract that?

Toiletries typically contain pH buffering chemicals which help prevent the pH of the product from being altered by small levels of acid, alkali or even water. I'd also be concerned about the effect that adding something acidic might have on the other ingredients.

IMO, the best option would be to not add anything to the shampoo itself (although you may want to use it diluted (with water), to diminish its harshness). Instead, I'd add an acidic rinse afterwards. Vinegar or citric acid is best for that (diluted approx. 1 teaspoon to 1 cup water for vinegar) as lemon juice can (over time) bleach hair. Lots of people like apple cider vinegar but that can (over time) cause brassiness in blonde/white/grey hair. Personally, I find white wine vinegar or even just plain white vinegar is fine (though be careful with plain white vinegar as it's often stronger as it's intended for pickling not use as a condiment, so it may need diluting more).

[luxurioushair]

Maybe water is what you need most of the time. Water is the best moisturizer and then you can use a bit of oil after that.

[amino]

Toiletries typically contain pH buffering chemicals which help prevent the pH of the product from being altered by small levels of acid, alkali or even water. I'd also be concerned about the effect that adding something acidic might have on the other ingredients.

IMO, the best option would be to not add anything to the shampoo itself (although you may want to use it diluted (with water), to diminish its harshness). Instead, I'd add an acidic rinse afterwards. Vinegar or citric acid is best for that (diluted approx. 1 teaspoon to 1 cup water for vinegar) as lemon juice can (over time) bleach hair. Lots of people like apple cider vinegar but that can (over time) cause brassiness in blonde/white/grey hair. Personally, I find white wine vinegar or even just plain white vinegar is fine (though be careful with plain white vinegar as it's often stronger as it's intended for pickling not use as a condiment, so it may need diluting more).

Sounds like a good idea! I'll do that once I get back home, and until I find something to wash my hair with.


Maybe water is what you need most of the time. Water is the best moisturizer and then you can use a bit of oil after that.

So a WO treatment for a while? I'm not too willing to try that just yet.

[lapushka]

I think I've missed the part where you use conditioner? I'd use conditioner instead of oil and see what that does.

[kidari]

What I would try if I were in your shoes: Get a gentle moisturizing shampoo that is either salon quality or something more "natural" that I can find at a store like Whole Foods. Play with ratios by diluting it with distilled water in a squeeze bottle (the kind that you buy at a beauty supply store to use when dying hair). Don't use too much oil and remember if you do leave it as a leave-in use a couple drops spread evenly onto the palms of your hand (and this is what people with waist length and longer do, so if you have shorter hair you will need less oil). Stop doing heavy oilings so often before shampoo, maybe try doing them less often. Instead follow washes with an acidic rinse (I avoid baking soda and lemon juice when it comes to skin and hair for many reasons). My favorite is citric acid- a very tiny amount in a ton of distilled water. The same principle with avoiding overdoing the oil applies with the acidic rinse as well- maybe try not to do it every single wash at first. Gradually see how your hair responds and pay attention if it's having any negative effects. Always remember there are no set rules for what works best for you. It's always about learning and experimenting while paying attention to how it's affecting your hair and adjusting. You get better and better at it the more you do it. Acidic rinses may not work for you at all.

Oils seal things in the same way cones do so you never know if store bought serums might work better for you than 100% natural plain pure oils. Treatments shouldn't be overdone but it might for someone whose scalp is well adjusted to once weekly washings who have very long hair or very processed hair (then maybe a treatment every wash will work very well for them, but they may shampoo twice or use a very strong shampoo when they do wash). Leave-ins should be used with a very light hand. Shampoo should always be rinsed out thoroughly (in the past I had about waist length hair when I was young and I would never fully rinsed things out of my hair when I washed and that was actually what was causing all of my issues). Some people let a small amount of conditioner stay in their hair- YMMV with everything. Everything depends on your scalp, your hair type, the condition of your hair, how you perform your hair care, the products you use, your routine/schedule, your water quality, etc. I use an acidic rinse as the final step and I do not rinse that out. Others spray their diluted acidic rinse into their dry or wet hair and let that sit for a few minutes before proceeding with their washing and conditioning routine. I've even seen people put diluted ACV into hair that has treatment mask sitting on it. Some use it as an intermediate step between shampooing and conditioning while others do it as a final step but then rinse that out also. It's always YMMV.

I agree that oil is not the moisturizer (it's a protector like cones) and that water is the moisturizer. This is why my ends get brittle and dry if I don't wash often. Washing more often actually kept my ends nicer so long as I wasn't lathering up every single time with a harsh shampoo. I think it was the water running through my hair bringing down the oils that build up on my scalp. However, I didn't want to wash every day so my problem was solved with "misting" and "damp bunning" and using a concoction of water, aloe, glycerin, and oil sprayed lightly on my dry ends on a non-wash day. The water moisturized, the aloe did the same, the glycerin helped hold the water in, and the oil helped to seal. I can be wrong with any or all of my advice but this is just my thinking and experience and what has worked for me. It's been so effective that I've replaced a store bought leave-in conditioner or detangler with that (search for Kimberlily's defrizz spray).

[meteor]

If I don't use the coconut oil, it's like my hair is possessed—as soon as I think I'm done detangling and run the comb through my hair one more time, I find more knots. The problem is when I wash my hair "too" often or when I've oiled. When I wash too often or use too much shampoo, it feels literally squeaky in the shower, and I hate touching it. I don't exactly know what it feels like dry because I oil it lightly right after I get out of the shower.

That could be down to hairtype. The ability to glide a brush from root to tips without a snag is a bit of a myth - not all hairtypes can do this. I find it's better to just detangle all knots and real tangles, do as much detangling as necessary, but then just stop instead of trying to make it perfect... Too much manipulation is not great for hair, as it's dead and the idea it to ensure it doesn't fray too much.

If coconut oil is not cutting it, use some "sealing" oil like baby oil (mineral oil) and also silicones. I think they are significantly better for slip. Coconut oil is more of a penetrating oil and may not work for everyone as a "detangler" or a "serum", but more like a pre-poo treatment.


Lately, (probably because I'm traveling and have more sun exposure than usual), my hair seems drier, but I don't want to have too much grease/oil on my hair because then I'm not sure my shampoo can clean it out properly.


I'm wondering, is this unmanageability because of the lack of 'cones? Or is it because it's conditioning shampoo and not specifically made for properly caring for long hair? Am I washing my hair wrong, even?


As soon as I get home (next week), I'm going on a hunt to find myself a better shampoo—and conditioner. Based on the info above and anything else you ladies and gentlemen might like to ask, do you have any recommendations for me? Should I try and go back to cones? Find a more moisturizing shampoo? (Or should it have proteins? I don't even know how to figure out what my hair is lacking.) I don't feel like I had these problems when my hair was above APL, but now I'm hovering at BSL and it's getting to be a pain to manage, which is stressful.

I'm tempted to try soap berries also... has anyone had any luck with those?

- For sun protection, do get a hat/buff/scarf, ideally made from UPF-rated material and with silky lining. It's safer for both skin and avoiding hair photo-damage and drying out the hair.

- For slip, yes, I'm a huge fan of silicones. Sure, if they build up on your hair fast, just go for a lighter product with amodimethicone or something water-soluble or simply rotate products: say, one wash with coney conditioners, next wash cone-free, etc.

[Anje]

Are you using conditioner? "Conditioning shampoo" is still pretty harsh and drying stuff for most people. Even something simple and cheap like Suave Naturals (Look -- no Titanium dioxide!) (http://www.drugstore.com/suave-naturals-conditioner-rainforest-fresh/qxp461375?catid=183403) would make a big difference vs no conditioner.

[Panth]

Maybe water is what you need most of the time. Water is the best moisturizer and then you can use a bit of oil after that.

This is not really true. Just plain water, whilst technically "100% moisture" ... well, the funny thing about water is it evaporates off. If it really is a moisture issue, you want something that encourages the moisture to stay put (either humectants like aloe vera gel, honey, glycerine, etc. or sealing ingredients like many oils, 'cones). There's also the fact that what most people mean when they say they want "moisture" (in skin or hair products) is that they want emolients - stuff that will soften and smooth the hair/skin, removing that dry, "moisture lacking" feeling.

~~~

To take a different tack, is this (http://www.iherb.com/Aveeno-Baby-Gentle-Conditioning-Shampoo-Lightly-Scented-12-fl-oz-354-ml/47895) the product you're using? If so, it's sulphate-free (but uses cocoamidopropyl betaine, which personally I find ok for cleansing). That may be your issue. There is glycerin, and quite high on the list, which may cause issues depending upon the humidity where you live (as it's a humectant). There's also polyquats, which some people find build-up badly and cause 'sticky' hair (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/polyquat-build-up.html).

There's also the fact that it's a "conditioning shampoo" which, unless I'm mistaken, is basically a 2in1. Many people, particularly longhairs and including myself, find 2in1s to have insufficient conditioning capabilities. They are generally intended for bobs and shorter where conditioning isn't really needed (due to the hair strands not being old/weathered/damaged and due to the shortness of the hairs meaning that sebum will effectively condition them even in the absence of scritching, preening, etc.). Think - how much hair does a baby have?

[amino]

kidri, thank you! That sounds very useful! Typically when I use oil as a leave-in I only use a few drops—but I probably have been doing oil treatments a bit too often. I think the last one I did was 3 weeks or so ago, and then again two days ago. That misting concoction sounds very useful! I my use it at some point down the line. :)


That could be down to hairtype. The ability to glide a brush from root to tips without a snag is a bit of a myth - not all hairtypes can do this. I find it's better to just detangle all knots and real tangles, do as much detangling as necessary, but then just stop instead of trying to make it perfect... Too much manipulation is not great for hair, as it's dead and the idea it to ensure it doesn't fray too much.

Thank you for all the advice, meteor! I mentioned not being able to glide a brush through because typically, when my hair is behaving, there are no snags in it. The comb may pause a bit, but my hair is typically silky and minimally tangly when it's happy. Thanks for all the sun protection tips! I've been wondering about them, and I'll grab myself a hat from now on when I venture outside for too long. :)


Are you using conditioner? "Conditioning shampoo" is still pretty harsh and drying stuff for most people. Even something simple and cheap like Suave Naturals (Look -- no Titanium dioxide!) (http://www.drugstore.com/suave-naturals-conditioner-rainforest-fresh/qxp461375?catid=183403) would make a big difference vs no conditioner.
Anje, that makes me so happy and gives me hope. :) I'm currently abroad, but when I get home I'm going to look into that further.



To take a different tack, is this (http://www.iherb.com/Aveeno-Baby-Gentle-Conditioning-Shampoo-Lightly-Scented-12-fl-oz-354-ml/47895) the product you're using? If so, it's sulphate-free (but uses cocoamidopropyl betaine, which personally I find ok for cleansing). That may be your issue. There is glycerin, and quite high on the list, which may cause issues depending upon the humidity where you live (as it's a humectant). There's also polyquats, which some people find build-up badly and cause 'sticky' hair (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/polyquat-build-up.html).

There's also the fact that it's a "conditioning shampoo" which, unless I'm mistaken, is basically a 2in1. Many people, particularly longhairs and including myself, find 2in1s to have insufficient conditioning capabilities. They are generally intended for bobs and shorter where conditioning isn't really needed (due to the hair strands not being old/weathered/damaged and due to the shortness of the hairs meaning that sebum will effectively condition them even in the absence of scritching, preening, etc.). Think - how much hair does a baby have?
I don't have much humidity where I live typically, but again, I'm abroad, and it's been a bit cold/rainy in Paris and Bucharest. The polyquats may also have something to do with it.

Good point about the baby shampoo! I started using it when I was at shoulders/APL, and when I was more concerned about getting rid of the ear itchiness than making my hair happy. Now that I'm almost done with the bottle, I'm almost certain my ears will never be entirely happy, and I'd rather make sure my scalp is. :)