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divinedobbie
April 8th, 2015, 09:52 PM
Often when I comb my hair (resin seamless) my hair breaks off in 1-10 cm pieces regardless of how gentle I am. I get tons of split ends and my hair is so many different lengths so it gets velcro-y. I have to comb often because the longer I wait, the worse the tangling gets = more breakage. My ends are wispy and I think the breakage is the reason why considering it's been two years of regular trimming to get rid of all my layers and dye and it's still in bad shape.

My ends used to be very thick and blunt (about 4-5 years ago). The only big difference in my routine since then is that I've been sulfate free for a year and a half. I wash my hair daily and always have (aside from the 8 months I stretched washes and had a major shed because of it).

These are the things I've tried to help with the tangles and breakage with no help:
-clarifying
-chelating
-protein treatments (seemed to make breakage temporarily worse)
-moisture treatments (really made me shed tons)
-silk pillowcases
-coney conditioners and leave ins
-blow drying on cold
-oils (coconut, grapeseed, almond, mineral oil)
-henna, cassia
-using different combs/brushes including boar bristle, finger combing
-I have a great diet and have had blood tests that came back perfect

I've gone the trimming route and it hasn't helped. I'm sure that doing a big chop to get rid of the splits and get it one length would help but that would mean chopping to shoulder and I'm definitely not doing it.

Does anyone else have any other ideas for how to manage it and stop further breakage? Anything I'm missing?

I plan to grow till waist (another 4 inches) and start trimming again but it doesn't help when it's a vicious cycle and I get split ends as fast as I cut them out.

ETA: I moved to a much drier climate 7 months ago.

Llama
April 9th, 2015, 12:09 AM
I have had this same problem. Something I've been doing lately that I've noticed helps A LOT with the breakage issue is oiling the ends of my hair every time I detangle.
On days where I know I will be washing my hair I put lots of oil on before detangling. If I know I won't be washing my hair for another day or 2 I still put a tiny bit of oil on the ends and it really does help.
If I detangle my hair without any oil it is pretty much a guarantee there will be at least 5-10 little broken hairs on my clothes when I'm done combing.
For reference, I use a tangle teezer and/or a a wooden comb to detangle.

pinchbeck
April 9th, 2015, 09:06 AM
Spit ends monopolize my hair no matter if I cut lots of it off or not. I've tried everything too and am currently using a hair oil serum to see if that will help. My hair tangles mid shaft and I think it's because my hair doesn't have smooth cuticles even though it is virgin which means my hair type is hard to manage. I get very frustrated with the mechanical damage I cause because my hair matts so easily when it is down/loose and and it even matts while in a braid (the underneath hairs).

Constantly looking for a solution is tiring when the end result is a non winning battle. I can't grow my hair past 30" without it driving me batty. Microtrimming does nothing for my ends so what I will doing is following a hair regime found on Youtube where this long haired woman cuts 2" of hair off every six months. It makes sense to me! However, there is no cure for my mid shaft issues.

divinedobbie
April 9th, 2015, 10:45 AM
Llama - I wish I could oil my ends when detangling but no matter what oil or how little I've used in the past, I've had to use sulfates to wash my hair after otherwise my hair would look very oily and slick.

pinchbeck - guess we just have to learn to live with it :shrug:

Arctic
April 9th, 2015, 11:07 AM
That's a difficult dilemma you give us! So how long you have been aware of this problem?

Could you post the ingredients of the products you use on your hair on regular basis? Also if you could type down your hair routines in detail, both daily and less often happening things. It might be helpful.

What kind of water there is in your area? (I did notice you alredy chelated, just asking.)

And: do you have old damage or hair colour? Have you stopped henna and cassia end if yes, where is the demacration (sp?) line?

gwenalyn
April 9th, 2015, 02:49 PM
I noticed you used coney serums in the past to try to fix it. Did you go back to sulfates when you did that? LHC lore says that most cones will build up and cause problems if you don't also use a sulfate shampoo once in while. If not, maybe try coney serums + sulfate shampoos?

hidetheice
April 9th, 2015, 03:32 PM
I've got tons of breakage, split ends, brittleness as well. All the oils, SMTs, etc in the world haven't really helped much. I'm going to try catnip rinses (Ktani style) and mineral oil as a leave in for a bit and see how it goes. I've already done one and it made my hair more manageable than its been in a while and that was without letting it steep for as long as I should have (oops).

meteor
April 9th, 2015, 04:41 PM
Often when I comb my hair (resin seamless) my hair breaks off in 1-10 cm pieces regardless of how gentle I am. I get tons of split ends and my hair is so many different lengths so it gets velcro-y. I have to comb often because the longer I wait, the worse the tangling gets = more breakage. My ends are wispy and I think the breakage is the reason why considering it's been two years of regular trimming to get rid of all my layers and dye and it's still in bad shape.

My ends used to be very thick and blunt (about 4-5 years ago). The only big difference in my routine since then is that I've been sulfate free for a year and a half. I wash my hair daily and always have (aside from the 8 months I stretched washes and had a major shed because of it).

These are the things I've tried to help with the tangles and breakage with no help:
-clarifying
-chelating
-protein treatments (seemed to make breakage temporarily worse)
-moisture treatments (really made me shed tons)
-silk pillowcases
-coney conditioners and leave ins
-blow drying on cold
-oils (coconut, grapeseed, almond, mineral oil)
-henna, cassia
-using different combs/brushes including boar bristle, finger combing
-I have a great diet and have had blood tests that came back perfect

I've gone the trimming route and it hasn't helped. I'm sure that doing a big chop to get rid of the splits and get it one length would help but that would mean chopping to shoulder and I'm definitely not doing it.

Does anyone else have any other ideas for how to manage it and stop further breakage? Anything I'm missing?

I plan to grow till waist (another 4 inches) and start trimming again but it doesn't help when it's a vicious cycle and I get split ends as fast as I cut them out.

ETA: I moved to a much drier climate 7 months ago.


I'd definitely get a humidifier and lay off the brush, if you still use it.

Did you notice the breakage since you moved to the new area? Could it be humidity-related and hard-water-related? I'd try a chelating shampoo (L'anza, Joico, or just a swimmers shampoo) and do diluted acidic (e.g. white vinegar) rinses to see if it helps.
If you do notice that chelating works, maybe look into the so-called "miracle water", as well? It's 1/32 of a teaspoon of vitamin c and 1/4 teaspoon of citric acid pr gallon of water: http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=51184

kdaniels8811
April 9th, 2015, 05:29 PM
I see you have not tried catnip tea soaks. They keep my hair growing, no splits or breakage. It is amazing and really cheap. Ktani had started a thread on how to...

divinedobbie
April 9th, 2015, 05:54 PM
That's a difficult dilemma you give us! So how long you have been aware of this problem?

Could you post the ingredients of the products you use on your hair on regular basis? Also if you could type down your hair routines in detail, both daily and less often happening things. It might be helpful.

What kind of water there is in your area? (I did notice you already chelated, just asking.)

And: do you have old damage or hair colour? Have you stopped henna and cassia end if yes, where is the demacration (sp?) line?

I had this problem (actually much worse) when I was in Europe for the summer two years ago. At the time I was using very strong shampoos and clarifying every week because my hair dresser told me I had build up. She scraped her scissors along the length of my hair and "stuff" was on the scissors so she proclaimed that as build up, although honestly I think that she just scraped off my cuticles with all the pressure she applied. Anyway I came back home after that summer and I switched my shampoos and conditioner and I think the problem went away, at least I didn't notice it. In Europe, I noticed it because the house I was staying at had white floors and counters so I could see my hair. At home I had dark hardwood or carpet flooring so I never noticed the hair. I've noticed that even with constant trimming, my ends haven't gotten any better and I couldn't figure out why. Then a week or so ago, I was combing my hair over my sink counter (usually I do it in my room with carpet) and I saw a bunch of broken hairs and I've been combing over light countertops since then and it keeps happening. I have no idea how long this has been happening and I haven't been noticing but I assume a while.

The products I've been using most recently are:

L'oreal Evercreme Sulfate free shampoo:
Aqua/Water, Sodium Cocoyl Isethinate, Sodium Lauryl Sulfoacetate, Disodium Laureth Sulfosuccinate, Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Glycol Distearate, Glycereth-26, Decyl Glucoside, Amodimethicone, Parfum/Fragrance, Hydrogenated Coconut Acid, PPG-5-Ceteth-20, Glycerin, Polyquaternium-7, PEG-55 Propylene Glycol Oleate, Propylene Glycol, Ployquaternium-10, Sodium Isethionate, Carbomer, Benzoic Acid, Trideceth-6, Tocopherol, Hexyl Cinnamal, Sodium Benzoate, Linalool, Cetrimonium Chloride, Camelina Sativa Oil/Camelina Sativa Seed Oil, Prunus Armeniaca Kernel Oil/Apricot Kernel Oil, Vitis Vinifera Seed Oil/Grape Seed Oil, Coumarin, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Methylisothiazolinone, Citric Acid. F.I.L. #D50185/2.

Tresemme Naturals Moisturizing Conditioner:
Water , Cetearyl Alcohol , Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine , Behentrimonium Chloride , Persea Gratissima (Avocado) Oil , Brassica Campestris/Aleurites Fordi Oil Copolymer , Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Extract , Fragrance , Dipropylene Glycol , Potassium Chloride , Lactic Acid , Disodium EDTA , DMDM Hydantoin , PEG 150 Distearate , Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride , Lauroyl Lysine , Methylchloroisothiazolinone , Methylisothiazolinone

Tresemme Split Remedy Conditioner:
Water, Cetyl Alcohol, Amodimethicone, Cyclopentasiloxane, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Caprylic/Capric, Triglyceride, Hydrolyzed Keratin, Tocopheryl, Acetate, Panthenol, Ascorbic Acid, Niacinamide, Biotin, Polyquaternium-28, Polyquaternium-37, Cyclohexasiloxane, Glycerin, Dimethicone, Aspartic Acid, Distearoylethyl Dimonium choiride, Hydroxyethylcellulose, Propylene Glycol Dicaprylate/Dicaprate, cetearyl Alcohol, Acrylamidopropyltrimonium Chliride/Acrylamide Copolymer, PVM/MA Copolymer, PPG-1 Trideceth-6, Disodium EDTA, Polysorbate 20, DMDM Hydantoin, Fragrance

Just ran out of those a few days ago and switched to Organix Argan Oil of Moracco Sulfate free shampoo and I'm balancing between Tresemme Naturals (cone free) and L'oreal Total repair 5 (cones) conditioner. I've used both of those conditioners in the past and liked them.

My daily routine is to wash my hair with the shampoo, apply conditioner, leave it in for 3-4 minutes, rinse out well in cold water. Gently towel dry hair, and usually air dry (maybe one every week I'll blow dry). Sometimes I'll put on a dime size amount of Garnier Fructis Damage Eraser leave in (used to do it daily but lately stopped because I don't know what's causing breakage). Ill comb my hair damp because I get less breakage that way (even though wet hair is more delicate). That's about it for the daily routine. Once every 2-4 weeks I'll use Pantene weekly deep cleanse as a clarifying/chelating shampoo. I used to chelate using citric acid and vitamin C but I didn't notice a difference so I stopped. Once a month if I remember, I'll do a protein treatment using gelatin and a moisture treatment (honey, conditioner, coconut milk, etc). About once a month I use Adore vegetable hair dye to tone down the henna.

From the research I've done on my city, it looks like we have hard water but I haven't noticed any limescale or discolouration in our bathroom.

Last time I fully dyed my hair was in February of 2011. I had the bottom half bleached professionally to get rid of the black colour in May 2013. According to the math, all the old colour should be chopped out by now. I've been using the adore dye for about 4-5 months. Last time I used cassia was March 2014. Only used henna once and that was in August 2014. I have three inches of non hennaed roots. The henna application I did was half an hour and it's fairly faded so I don't think it was very strong.

Thanks so much for the help!

divinedobbie
April 9th, 2015, 05:58 PM
I noticed you used coney serums in the past to try to fix it. Did you go back to sulfates when you did that? LHC lore says that most cones will build up and cause problems if you don't also use a sulfate shampoo once in while. If not, maybe try coney serums + sulfate shampoos?

I didn't go back to sulfates full time but when I was using cones I'd try the more water soluble ones and also make sure to clarify with a sulfate shampoo every week or two. I've definitely thought about going back full time to cones and sulfates since that's what I was doing when my hair was thickest and healthiest - but I'm just afraid of damaging it more and not sure if I should go back to sulfates.


I've got tons of breakage, split ends, brittleness as well. All the oils, SMTs, etc in the world haven't really helped much. I'm going to try catnip rinses (Ktani style) and mineral oil as a leave in for a bit and see how it goes. I've already done one and it made my hair more manageable than its been in a while and that was without letting it steep for as long as I should have (oops).

I've read all of ktani's articles about catnip rinses a long time ago but have been hesitant due to a) possibility of yellow colouration and b) possibility of limp/greasy hair due to the oils in catnip (anytime I've used oils, I need sulfates to get them out and that contradicts the whole non-damaging thing). Like I said above, I'm very hesitant about going back to sulfates.

divinedobbie
April 9th, 2015, 06:01 PM
I'd definitely get a humidifier and lay off the brush, if you still use it.

Did you notice the breakage since you moved to the new area? Could it be humidity-related and hard-water-related? I'd try a chelating shampoo (L'anza, Joico, or just a swimmers shampoo) and do diluted acidic (e.g. white vinegar) rinses to see if it helps.
If you do notice that chelating works, maybe look into the so-called "miracle water", as well? It's 1/32 of a teaspoon of vitamin c and 1/4 teaspoon of citric acid pr gallon of water: http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=51184

I did get a humidifier about a month ago but it raises the humidity to 30-40% max. It's quite hot in my room and I like the window open and the humidier can't keep up. I think my strongest suspect is what you're saying - humidity (lack of) and hard water but I'm not sure about the hard water (see post above for more info and about the chelators I've tried).

endlessly
April 9th, 2015, 07:58 PM
I had this same issue several years back. I'd been color-treating my hair pretty frequently and had a bit of a dye mishap that I opted to use a bleach wash to correct - big mistake, by the way. As a result, I was left with dry, almost brittle ends that no matter how careful I was, always seemed to snap off in small sections. I used everything that you had tried - oils, conditioners, masques, deep conditioners, my own at-home experiments...nothing helped. The tangles were a nightmare and no matter how quickly I would put my hair up, there were still tangles as soon as I took it back down. So, I understand completely what you've been going through.

Now, I know you don't like the idea of cutting, but the only thing that helped me was having a pretty drastic cut. I lost about 10 inches - not the full amount I should have cut, but enough that I thought I had some chance of salvaging. Then, I babied the hell out of my hair. What made it worse, ironically, were all of the moisture and protein treatments because I would always have to use a harsh sulfate-loaded shampoo in order to fully remove the residue from my hair, which basically defeated the purpose.

So, in order to clarify my scalp and hair since I had a ton of build-up from using silicone products, I used a mixture of vinegar (I only had white vinegar on hand) diluted with water, spritzed it all over my hair especially focusing on my scalp and my ends, then let it sit. I literally soaked my entire head in vinegar-water and left it that way for about an hour before finally rinsing it out, using a mild shampoo, and just my basic conditioner. Problem solved.

Since then, I've cut out all of the products I used to use that were loaded with silicones and left that greasy residue feeling on my scalp, and honestly since doing that, my hair improved dramatically. I still had a bit of damage from the bleach wash and once my hair had surpassed classic-length, I chose to have the portion I had originally decided against trimming cut back to hip in order to get healthier. Now, no more tangles.

So, I would suggest to maybe give this a try if you haven't already. After my original experiment, I did switch to apple cider vinegar since it is supposed to be better for your hair and that's worked just as well. Best of luck and hopefully you're able to solve the issue you're having!

divinedobbie
April 9th, 2015, 10:22 PM
I had this same issue several years back. I'd been color-treating my hair pretty frequently and had a bit of a dye mishap that I opted to use a bleach wash to correct - big mistake, by the way. As a result, I was left with dry, almost brittle ends that no matter how careful I was, always seemed to snap off in small sections. I used everything that you had tried - oils, conditioners, masques, deep conditioners, my own at-home experiments...nothing helped. The tangles were a nightmare and no matter how quickly I would put my hair up, there were still tangles as soon as I took it back down. So, I understand completely what you've been going through.

Now, I know you don't like the idea of cutting, but the only thing that helped me was having a pretty drastic cut. I lost about 10 inches - not the full amount I should have cut, but enough that I thought I had some chance of salvaging. Then, I babied the hell out of my hair. What made it worse, ironically, were all of the moisture and protein treatments because I would always have to use a harsh sulfate-loaded shampoo in order to fully remove the residue from my hair, which basically defeated the purpose.

So, in order to clarify my scalp and hair since I had a ton of build-up from using silicone products, I used a mixture of vinegar (I only had white vinegar on hand) diluted with water, spritzed it all over my hair especially focusing on my scalp and my ends, then let it sit. I literally soaked my entire head in vinegar-water and left it that way for about an hour before finally rinsing it out, using a mild shampoo, and just my basic conditioner. Problem solved.

Since then, I've cut out all of the products I used to use that were loaded with silicones and left that greasy residue feeling on my scalp, and honestly since doing that, my hair improved dramatically. I still had a bit of damage from the bleach wash and once my hair had surpassed classic-length, I chose to have the portion I had originally decided against trimming cut back to hip in order to get healthier. Now, no more tangles.

So, I would suggest to maybe give this a try if you haven't already. After my original experiment, I did switch to apple cider vinegar since it is supposed to be better for your hair and that's worked just as well. Best of luck and hopefully you're able to solve the issue you're having!

That's been two votes for vinegar so far so maybe I'll head to the store and get some tomorrow and try that out. I've thought that it might be product build up but clarifying shampoos seem to make my hair really dry and brittle for a few days afterward until my hair recovers.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I guess my biggest questions right now are:
Should I go back to sulfates so that I can use cones and maybe oils (only sulfates remove them from my hair)?
If my problem is the low humidity (currently 31% outside, 20% indoors) how do I keep moisture in my hair without weighing it down? All the oils and SMT's I've tried have made my hair limp and greasy looking and I can only get rid of that with sulfates. So once again do I go back to sulfates so I can use heavier products?

divinedobbie
April 9th, 2015, 10:32 PM
Actually another thing I've been thinking about is trying to stretch washes again. I'm just terrified of starting to shed buckets again but If I did go back to sulfates, it would be beneficiary to wash less often.

Something I've been wondering for a very long time is that since sulfates are stronger and strip more oil, I would think that would stimulate your scalp to produce more oil to make up for it whereas sulfate-free shampoos don't strip as much sebum/oil so your scalp doesn't go into over-mode trying to produce more. That's my reasoning anyway. But another member mentioned that using sulfate free shampoos allowed them to stretch washing easier because their scalp was cleaner so it took longer for the scalp to replace that sebum. I was just wondering what other people's experiences was with this?

Nadine <3
April 9th, 2015, 11:08 PM
For me, sulfate free shampoos really mucked my hair and scalp up. I shed buckets and my scalp got really sore and inflamed. I spent my first year trying to avoid silicone and sulfates and I ended up with the same splits and breakage you describe. I went back to both sulfates and silicone and my hair is doing great. I snip out a few splits a month, but no more breakage. I stretch my washes a little bit, I wash every 5 days with a scalp only wash done in the sink thrown in the middle. I also use the rinse out oil method and I think that is what improved my hair the most, it's been a hair saver.

Nique1202
April 10th, 2015, 05:46 AM
I wonder how much oil you're using, that it builds up on your hair like that. You should start with just a drop or two, rub it all over your hands as if you were using it to moisturize your hands instead of your hair, and then run your hands over your ends first, and then finger comb and/or run your hands through your hair, working up to your shoulders or so, then lightly run your hands over the canopy hair on your head. Above the shoulders, the hair gets exposed to scalp oils and doesn't need as much external moisture. If your hair still feels dry, you can try spreading another 1-2 drops of oil at a time this way until it feels better. But, if your hair needs three applications of 2 drops, I still wouldn't recommend using 6 drops in 1 application because it might not get distributed as evenly. You need to be able to feel your way through your hair and spend more time where it feels more dry.

The same goes for applying conditioner: start at the ends, where it's needed the most, then go from the shoulders down, and when there's a thin film of it left on your hands at the end, run your hands over the canopy. If there's visible globs of conditioner or a lot of visible shininess on your hands from the oil left after working it in from the shoulders down, then you're using too much to start with. Even on very thin fine hair, one drop of oil spread over both hands shouldn't leave it looking greasy at the ends.


Actually another thing I've been thinking about is trying to stretch washes again. I'm just terrified of starting to shed buckets again but If I did go back to sulfates, it would be beneficiary to wash less often.

Something I've been wondering for a very long time is that since sulfates are stronger and strip more oil, I would think that would stimulate your scalp to produce more oil to make up for it whereas sulfate-free shampoos don't strip as much sebum/oil so your scalp doesn't go into over-mode trying to produce more. That's my reasoning anyway. But another member mentioned that using sulfate free shampoos allowed them to stretch washing easier because their scalp was cleaner so it took longer for the scalp to replace that sebum. I was just wondering what other people's experiences was with this?

Most scalps will produce more oil from the action of rubbing shampoo into them every day than because of what shampoo is used on them. More often than not, sulfates remove more oil so it takes longer for the scalp to get oily again, while no-sulfate shampoos don't remove all of the oil meaning it's going to look greasy again sooner. Sulfates are not damaging in and of themselves, you could use them every day safely as long as you don't have a skin reaction or allergy to them. Most of the "problem" with sulfates is that they strip out whatever they're applied to. The best way to use sulfate shampoo is to shampoo only above the shoulders and only squeeze the suds down the length or let the rinse water carry them down (you shouldn't need to rub shampoo into the length) and to use a conditioner and/or oil to moisturize where it's needed most as I described above.

If you still want to stretch washes, you should do it as slowly as possible so that you don't shock your scalp into another big shed or trigger anything worse. If you switch shampoos, you want to wait and see how it feels after your first wash or two before you make any changes to your routine. If it immediately feels less greasy when you would have washed it next, then wait 12 hours or near enough, and then wash it. So if you wash your hair every morning now for example, you'd want to start by washing in the morning on day 1, then in the evening on day 2, skip day 3, wash the morning of day 4, the night of day 5, skip day 6, and so on. Keep doing that until your hair is adjusted to it, and then go for every other morning, then morning day 1, skip day 2, evening day 3, skip day 4 and 5, morning day 6. Stretching by half a day at a time should keep from shocking your scalp into a big shed, but it does take a while.

divinedobbie
April 10th, 2015, 07:00 AM
I wonder how much oil you're using, that it builds up on your hair like that. You should start with just a drop or two, rub it all over your hands as if you were using it to moisturize your hands instead of your hair, and then run your hands over your ends first, and then finger comb and/or run your hands through your hair, working up to your shoulders or so, then lightly run your hands over the canopy hair on your head. Above the shoulders, the hair gets exposed to scalp oils and doesn't need as much external moisture. If your hair still feels dry, you can try spreading another 1-2 drops of oil at a time this way until it feels better. But, if your hair needs three applications of 2 drops, I still wouldn't recommend using 6 drops in 1 application because it might not get distributed as evenly. You need to be able to feel your way through your hair and spend more time where it feels more dry.

The same goes for applying conditioner: start at the ends, where it's needed the most, then go from the shoulders down, and when there's a thin film of it left on your hands at the end, run your hands over the canopy. If there's visible globs of conditioner or a lot of visible shininess on your hands from the oil left after working it in from the shoulders down, then you're using too much to start with. Even on very thin fine hair, one drop of oil spread over both hands shouldn't leave it looking greasy at the ends.



Most scalps will produce more oil from the action of rubbing shampoo into them every day than because of what shampoo is used on them. More often than not, sulfates remove more oil so it takes longer for the scalp to get oily again, while no-sulfate shampoos don't remove all of the oil meaning it's going to look greasy again sooner. Sulfates are not damaging in and of themselves, you could use them every day safely as long as you don't have a skin reaction or allergy to them. Most of the "problem" with sulfates is that they strip out whatever they're applied to. The best way to use sulfate shampoo is to shampoo only above the shoulders and only squeeze the suds down the length or let the rinse water carry them down (you shouldn't need to rub shampoo into the length) and to use a conditioner and/or oil to moisturize where it's needed most as I described above.

If you still want to stretch washes, you should do it as slowly as possible so that you don't shock your scalp into another big shed or trigger anything worse. If you switch shampoos, you want to wait and see how it feels after your first wash or two before you make any changes to your routine. If it immediately feels less greasy when you would have washed it next, then wait 12 hours or near enough, and then wash it. So if you wash your hair every morning now for example, you'd want to start by washing in the morning on day 1, then in the evening on day 2, skip day 3, wash the morning of day 4, the night of day 5, skip day 6, and so on. Keep doing that until your hair is adjusted to it, and then go for every other morning, then morning day 1, skip day 2, evening day 3, skip day 4 and 5, morning day 6. Stretching by half a day at a time should keep from shocking your scalp into a big shed, but it does take a while.

I've always used just a tiny amount of oil but my hair doesn't absorb it or something and it sits on top of my hair making it look slick. Also I had already stretched washes successfully for five months before the shedding started and it took me another four months to realize that was why and go back to daily washing which made it stop.

divinedobbie
April 10th, 2015, 07:49 AM
So my current decisions are:
Stay sulfate free or go back to sulfates
Stretch washes or not (I like the idea but I was never happy stretching washes, even after 9 months my hair would be greasy on the second day and it made me self conscious)
Try catnip (if I used it like ktani does then a) I'd need to soak my hair in it for an hour every wash, which is every day for me and simply unreasonable and b) give up conditioners and I'm not sure how I feel about that)
Try mineral oil (Tried it before, worked ok. Just don't know if it's worth purchasing another bottle if it doesn't work)
Try Vinegar (Again, just hate buying something that might not work)

I'm just a big fan of benign neglect and don't like experimenting. I don't mind the idea of using something as a final rinse or leave in (vinegar or MO) but right now the catnip is taking a backseat because I'm not looking forward to having to remember to brew it every night and again the soaking time.

At this point I'm doubting it's hard water only because I researched my clarifying shampooo and it has chelating ingredients and is marketed as a swimmers shampoo and it hasn;t helped my hair.

ETA: I'll skip my morning wash and go to the grocery store after school and get some vinegar and try that later. Watch me come back with the MO and catnip too though :)

divinedobbie
April 10th, 2015, 09:49 AM
Endlessly - do you remember the dilution you used for the vinegar soak?

Also can someone explain how vinegar would clarify hair? I thought it would just smooth the cuticle by lowering the pH maybe? I just like knowing how things work :)

Arctic
April 10th, 2015, 09:55 AM
Hey,

I have yet had a change to read everything with concentration. Hopefully have time in the next few days.


A word of vinegar. It doesn't really clarify, You are right it's acidic so it closes the cuticles which makes hair shiny and smooth (though some peoples hair doesn't like it), and helps the scalp to have a correct pH.

It also helps to remove some hard water minerals and if one washes with real soap, soapscum caused by hard water. Some say it can take care of accumulated minerals, some say it can only take care of the minerals of current washing.

gwenalyn
April 10th, 2015, 02:39 PM
Most scalps will produce more oil from the action of rubbing shampoo into them every day than because of what shampoo is used on them. More often than not, sulfates remove more oil so it takes longer for the scalp to get oily again, while no-sulfate shampoos don't remove all of the oil meaning it's going to look greasy again sooner. Sulfates are not damaging in and of themselves, you could use them every day safely as long as you don't have a skin reaction or allergy to them. Most of the "problem" with sulfates is that they strip out whatever they're applied to. The best way to use sulfate shampoo is to shampoo only above the shoulders and only squeeze the suds down the length or let the rinse water carry them down (you shouldn't need to rub shampoo into the length) and to use a conditioner and/or oil to moisturize where it's needed most as I described above.

This! You took the words right out of my mouth. Unless you have a skin senstivity/allergy to sulfates, they are actually not very damaging, and because they clean better than "milder" shampoos, often the washing process is *faster*, reducing time spent manipulating wet (weak) hair. It's also much easier to slowly stretch washes with sulfates.

You should definitely make your own decisions, but here are my thoughts on your questions. Keep in mind that my hair is straighter and finer than yours, though:

Stay sulfate free or go back to sulfates
Sulfates! Take advantage of modern science and research.

Stretch washes or not (I like the idea but I was never happy stretching washes, even after 9 months my hair would be greasy on the second day and it made me self conscious)
Stretch washes! I <3 stretching washes. There's nothing more benignly neglectful than stretching washes! Go sloooow.

Try catnip (if I used it like ktani does then a) I'd need to soak my hair in it for an hour every wash, which is every day for me and simply unreasonable and b) give up conditioners and I'm not sure how I feel about that)
Never tried it. I wouldn't give up conditioners, ever. I did accidentally for a few months and while it wasn't awful or anything, my hair was just less nice.

Try mineral oil (Tried it before, worked ok. Just don't know if it's worth purchasing another bottle if it doesn't work)
I've heard good things about it. It sounds like your main problem is that oil = greasy hair, so you could try the wash-out method, or use a penetrating oil (i.e. coconut) to do a deep condition right before you wash. I can personally vouch for coconut oil helping reduce damage on my ends.

Try Vinegar (Again, just hate buying something that might not work)
You can cook with vinegar! ;) It's also not that expensive. I've never used it.

As always, change one thing at a time. That way, if something works, you know what it is. Even better, if something *doesn't* work, you know to avoid it in the future.

silvurgrin
April 10th, 2015, 10:07 PM
Sorry for the double post. Apparently I suck at editing.

silvurgrin
April 10th, 2015, 10:10 PM
I deal with an insane amount of breakage and splits as well. As in, every time I comb/detangle/braid/put my hair up/take it down I hear that little snapping sound. Doesn't matter how gentle I am. I, like you, have been looking into things I can do to help my hair, and one thing I've learned is that breaking means it's dehydrated. I'd been oiling my hair for a while, but I recently learned that I've been oiling it improperly. Having fine hair means looking stringy if I use more than a single drop of oil on my hair. But it turns out I've been doing it wrong. Check out this article http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2014/03/oil-pre-shampoo-or-pre-wash.html and see if it helps you. I tried pre-oiling, and did a cwc rather than just a standard wc, and then added the oil while my hair was still wet to lock in the moisture. Also, I got a detangler spray. Huge difference!! For starters, my hair isn't stringy even a little bit. Also, it's very soft, and has held up much better to basic handling than it ever has before. I'm going to continue to do this, since I've had such good, immediate results. You could try this, maybe you've been oiling wrong too. Or maybe not. I dunno.

Good luck figuring out your hair! :)

Safira
April 11th, 2015, 01:24 AM
I just think..... Is your hair porous or not? I mean if you have wrong products, they will make breakage in your hair. Mine is highly porous and when I stopped using humectants, splits and white knots have disappeared.

Budgie
April 11th, 2015, 02:30 AM
..........

divinedobbie
April 15th, 2015, 10:47 PM
I've been meaning to reply but final exams are this week and next so it's been crazy busy. I'll read the rest of the replied when I get a moment. Just wanted to give a quick report. Did an SMT with conditioner and honey followed by vinegar soak and vinegar rinses for three days but I got the same amount of breakage and I feel like my hair got more ropey/piece-y so I stopped. I also switched to sulfate shampoos and I've been continuing that but like I said, I've been so busy that I haven't been paying any attention to hair breakage so I don't know if it got better or worse.

YvetteVarie
April 16th, 2015, 04:05 AM
I just think..... Is your hair porous or not? I mean if you have wrong products, they will make breakage in your hair. Mine is highly porous and when I stopped using humectants, splits and white knots have disappeared.

I agree with Safira. Checking your hair's porosity may help you know how to deal with this. Because high porosity hair requires different techniques and products from low porosity hair. And from what you said about the oil just sitting on your hair, your hair may not be too porous. You may need techniques that really get moisture into your strands

divinedobbie
April 16th, 2015, 06:18 PM
I agree with Safira. Checking your hair's porosity may help you know how to deal with this. Because high porosity hair requires different techniques and products from low porosity hair. And from what you said about the oil just sitting on your hair, your hair may not be too porous. You may need techniques that really get moisture into your strands

I actually had a hair analysis done by Wendy from GooseFootPrints a year ago. She told me that my roots are low porosity, most of the length is low-normal porosity and the ends are very porous.

divinedobbie
April 16th, 2015, 06:21 PM
I payed attention to my hair today when I was combing it and I combed over a white sheet over paper and tons of breakage again so nothing I've tried helped. I also tried coconut oil and still the breakage. I really wish I could just chop off all my hair and start the grow out process over but I can't bring myself to do that. I'll just have to baby my ends and be as careful as possible for the rest of the year until I allow myself to start microtrimming.

silvurgrin
April 16th, 2015, 08:02 PM
I'm just curious, how do you do a porosity test?

divinedobbie
April 16th, 2015, 09:48 PM
I actually had a hair analysis done by Wendy from GooseFootPrints a year ago. She told me that my roots are low porosity, most of the length is low-normal porosity and the ends are very porous.

Just want to correct that the length was normal-porous not low-normal.

................................

Not too sure about how she measured porosity. I only way I've heard of doing it is floating your hair on top of a bowl of water for a minute. If it sank, it means it's porous and if it doesn't, it means it's not very porous but both me and my friend tried and our hair just kept on floating and never sank.

divinedobbie
April 17th, 2015, 10:11 AM
I'm just curious, how do you do a porosity test?

So I went back through my analysis and read Wendy's notes and this is how she determines porosity (using a microscope):
Porosity is determined visually.

Low porosity: Hair with cuticles intact when viewed face-on and with cuticles overlapping snugly when viewed on the edge of the hair.

Normal porosity: Takes into account normal wear and tear. Viewed face-on there are chipped cuticles with rare small gaps, rare cracks. Viewed from the edge, cuticles look like shingles on a roof with few flaring or jagged ("raised") looking cuticle scales.

Porous: Many chipped, broken or missing cuticle scales. Cracks may be present and frequent. Viewed on the edge, cuticles can be seen flaring out at the ends or standing away from the hair.

Safira
April 17th, 2015, 10:54 AM
I'm just curious, how do you do a porosity test?

Just analyzing. I thought how my hair behaved and reacted to humidity and conditioners. So I gave a try: I cut damaged ends and started to treat them with anti-humectants. No split ends. And some hints my hair gave me: My hair loves protein and seems it can't get enough, and if I used glyserin, my hair dried and tangled.


But with low-porosity hair the technique is different. I think curly hair-forum has much more info with this.

Arctic
April 18th, 2015, 01:27 AM
I have to say I am puzzled. It sounds like you have already tried almost everything, and are very knowlegeable about hair care and products. You even had that hair analysis made. I'm sorry I don't have much ideas :(

- getting the humidifier is good idea
- in dry climate you might want to stay away from humectants
- I would lay off protein products completely. My own hair is quite sensitive to them, and I had mysterious breakage which I believe was due to protein overload + growing out henna (demacration line).
- after stopping protein, if you indeed would have protein overload, and especially if it's been going on for a long time, it takes a while to get adequate moisture into your hair --> I would start intensive moisturising regime, without protein and without humectants*
*) eliminating humectants completely might not be easy, but try to at least use them in moist conditions (in steamy bathroom, under s shower cap, ETC) and only in rinse out conditioners/mask and not in leave-ins

- I would study more about specific care for combination hair that has both low to normal to high porosity
- I would look carefully what might be causing the porosity change (BBB? hard water?)

- I would continue clarifying and chelating with shampoos meant for that, or use DIY methods that are deemed effective here at LHC (always super moisturize after!) because hardwater can cause real tangible problems and the minerals can "chew" the hair. Note about DIY treatments: I think different acids are able to bind into (chelate) different minerals. So if for example citric acid did not work, try something else. Since you know you have hard water, I would continue chelating. Maybe contact your water facility and ask the mineral content? Is the water chlorinated? Fluorided? Do you live in an old building (copper pipes)?

- I personally love sulphates, and suggest you take a sulphate shampoo in an irregular rotation. Nothing removes normal buildup like sulphates

- I would continue (ETA: start) regular small trims. If your length photo is current, your hair is just getting over the s-shaped curve of your spine/back. Your hairs have been rubbing against the curve and this might have contributed too?
- keep your hair up as much as possible, avoid styles with hair tie at the ends (braids)

- if you have some kind of medication or disorder, research if those might have an effect on your hair (ofcourse if the culprit would be a medication a doctor ordered, you need to keep taking it. But it would be a relief to know.)
- Eat well, Take your supplements if you use them, sleep enough, excercise, keep a positive and calm outlook :)


- would also try to cultivate this kind of thinking: since you are doing so much already and clearly taking good care of your hair, not to stress over this too much. Continue doing the best care you know how. It can't be all bad. Some breakage and damage is unavoidable on many hairtypes.


This is truly a mystery. I'm sorry I am probably of no help. I hope you find something that would work!

Arctic
April 18th, 2015, 01:36 AM
Sorry I missed it, if your are on no trimming challenge now, I would definitely start your microtrimming, not trimming isn't for everybody. I once went 9 months without and my ends were in bad condition after that.



ETA: Oh, and don't put the moisturizing treatments near your scalp if they make you shed.

pixiepaws
April 18th, 2015, 02:23 AM
I completely understand not wanting to chop. I would suggest going back to basics . Just using a non SLS shampoo and a good cone conditioner. When I went silicone free was the worst thing ever for my hair. In the end I had to cut 3.5 inches off ( bleach damage). But I found the more experimenting and testing I tried the worse my scalp and hair ( bicarb and vinegar , was the worst one).

Your hair looks great in your signature to me , but I can understand how you feel I put up with bleached damaged ends for three years. Maybe a cut two inches off instead of up to shoulders. sometimes a good trim can do wonders.

This is what I do at the moment;

Wash when my hair needs it - L'oriel Everpure, occasional SLS shampoo, as I have hard water

I use any cone condish - I like Pantene the most.

Use Argan oil and Avadardo oil on the ends at night , when needed.

Brush when needed.

I will also micro-trim now to grow back the length , I have a few splits but not half as bad as before.

I hope this helps ,when I went back to basics it helped me .

divinedobbie
April 21st, 2015, 10:47 PM
I have to say I am puzzled. It sounds like you have already tried almost everything, and are very knowlegeable about hair care and products. You even had that hair analysis made. I'm sorry I don't have much ideas :(

- getting the humidifier is good idea
- in dry climate you might want to stay away from humectants
- I would lay off protein products completely. My own hair is quite sensitive to them, and I had mysterious breakage which I believe was due to protein overload + growing out henna (demacration line).
- after stopping protein, if you indeed would have protein overload, and especially if it's been going on for a long time, it takes a while to get adequate moisture into your hair --> I would start intensive moisturising regime, without protein and without humectants*
*) eliminating humectants completely might not be easy, but try to at least use them in moist conditions (in steamy bathroom, under s shower cap, ETC) and only in rinse out conditioners/mask and not in leave-ins

- I would study more about specific care for combination hair that has both low to normal to high porosity
- I would look carefully what might be causing the porosity change (BBB? hard water?)

- I would continue clarifying and chelating with shampoos meant for that, or use DIY methods that are deemed effective here at LHC (always super moisturize after!) because hardwater can cause real tangible problems and the minerals can "chew" the hair. Note about DIY treatments: I think different acids are able to bind into (chelate) different minerals. So if for example citric acid did not work, try something else. Since you know you have hard water, I would continue chelating. Maybe contact your water facility and ask the mineral content? Is the water chlorinated? Fluorided? Do you live in an old building (copper pipes)?

- I personally love sulphates, and suggest you take a sulphate shampoo in an irregular rotation. Nothing removes normal buildup like sulphates

- I would continue (ETA: start) regular small trims. If your length photo is current, your hair is just getting over the s-shaped curve of your spine/back. Your hairs have been rubbing against the curve and this might have contributed too?
- keep your hair up as much as possible, avoid styles with hair tie at the ends (braids)

- if you have some kind of medication or disorder, research if those might have an effect on your hair (ofcourse if the culprit would be a medication a doctor ordered, you need to keep taking it. But it would be a relief to know.)
- Eat well, Take your supplements if you use them, sleep enough, excercise, keep a positive and calm outlook :)


- would also try to cultivate this kind of thinking: since you are doing so much already and clearly taking good care of your hair, not to stress over this too much. Continue doing the best care you know how. It can't be all bad. Some breakage and damage is unavoidable on many hairtypes.


This is truly a mystery. I'm sorry I am probably of no help. I hope you find something that would work!

I've been meaning to reply but you've given me a lot to think about and I wanted to try some of those things out before replying.

The dry climate is a big challenge. I lived my whole life in a place where it rained every single day and we were classified as a "rainforest" (only because of the humidity, not because it's warm unfortunately). I've lived in this new place for 8 months and still haven't adjusted to how dry it is.

I have no idea if my hair likes or hates protein. I want to finish off my leave in (only product I have with protein) and then I'll ditch protein and see if my hair improves.

About the henna demarcation line, why did it give you breakage? I'm also growing out henna right now. I only did one short application and I've been growing it out for 8 months.

I'm going to have another hair analysis done soon because the last one was over a year ago when I had a lot of bleach and heat damage but I've trimmed the rest of it out now so I wonder if my porosity changed.

I think our water has a lot of chemicals. I know it's said to be the "cleanest" in my province.

Bought a sulphate shampoo and used it for a few days and liked it a lot because it meant I could use heavier cones (which was nice for extra slip and detangling). I'm back to my sulfate free one because I want to use it up first. I have a thing about using products up before trying new ones haha.

My biggest fault is wearing my hair down a lot. I just don't like how I look with it up. I am going to honestly put an effort in wearing it up more though, I know it'll make a difference.

No medications or anything. And my diet is really good and I drink lots of water. Can't say much for the sleep department - woes of college.

The only thing I won't do is trim. I've been trimming for the past three years and haven't gained any length at all because of that. At this point, my hair is in decent enough shape that my priority is length even if I have to risk the breakage. I'm just hoping to do everything I can to minimize the breakage.

Thank you so so much for all your thoughts and help. It really helps to have another mind.

truepeacenik
April 21st, 2015, 11:52 PM
I'm jumping in without reading all of the thread.
You say you moved to a drier climate. Are you using humectants now?
If so, stop, or reserve them for steamy bathrooms.
Likely the hair is sharing moisture with the ambient air.

divinedobbie
April 22nd, 2015, 01:57 AM
I'm jumping in without reading all of the thread.
You say you moved to a drier climate. Are you using humectants now?
If so, stop, or reserve them for steamy bathrooms.
Likely the hair is sharing moisture with the ambient air.

Humectants are the one thing I'm not super knowledgeable about because I've always had this notion that my hair needs protein because it's damaged so I never focused on moisture really. I have done an occasional SMT with honey, honey is a humectant right? From my understanding, there's a difference between simple humectants (bad in low humidity) and film forming humectants (good in low humidity). The only simple humectants I'm actually aware of is glycerin, sorbitol, and propylene glycol and the film forming humectants include plant gels, xantham gum, guar gum, panthenol and hydrolyzed proteins.

I've been using two different shampoos lately. One has no humectants (organx), the other has both glyercin and propylene glycol (l'oreal ever creme). The one conditioner (L'oreal) has glycerin, panthenol and a hydrolyzed wheat protein but it's the one with propyltrimonium in front of it which makes it a silicone (not sure if it still counts as a humectant then). The other conditioner I've been using has dipropylene glycol. The leave in I use has tons of hydrolyzed proteins (thought they were film forming = good?) but no other humectants (garnier damage eraser).

I also bought a pantene moisturizing conditioner and shampoo but haven't been using it yet aside from the first time I tried them when I bought it. They both have panthenol (good right?) and no other humectants.

Am I missing any other humectants that I could be overlooking? So from what I understand, the one shampoo plus the conditioners I've been using have simple humectants so that's bad and I should stop using them. Switching to the pantene looks promising though right?

Cania
April 22nd, 2015, 02:20 AM
There is a lot to read here so I'm just jumping in, sorry if this was already said.

Do you wear your hair down frequently? My hair eventually gets the same way if I have a few weeks/months where it is down all the time.

Illryeth
April 22nd, 2015, 04:03 AM
A few years ago, I used only henna and a simple shampoo and conditioner that were silicone free, and in a year and a half... I had absolutely no split ends. Then I went to a salon last year in may, and the hairdresser made me make a keratin treatment saying how much it will help my thin hair... she also lied to me and gave me a serum that had so many silicones as main ingredients... result... split ends that traveled up to my chin (I had shoulder lenght hair)... Silicones work so well for many people but not for all, for me they always only worked in hiding the splits for a while... but they never made my hair healthier in any way :( just gave the appearance of being healthy, and it has always been like this, also before I went silicone free, result was always in split ends...So maybe you could try that? Cut those split ends out, and use things that are cone free? Give it a year or more and see how it works out.
I am still on my way to cut splits out because I didnt want a short haircut, and my hair is a complete mess :'(

cat11
April 22nd, 2015, 06:45 AM
If you do go back to using sulphates, I would reccomend a shampoo that has more gentle sulfates. For me, that's the perfect middle ground. SLS is too drying but when I tried other non sulphate shampoo it just didnt work. Palmers olive oil shampoo is a good example, I use that and it's pretty moisturizing for a shampoo. They use a sulfate but it's gentler than SLS. I alternate in Shea Moisture Moisture retention shampoo when my roots start feeling like they need some more moisture (I only condition from ears down) but I think this one would be too heavy for your hair.

divinedobbie
April 22nd, 2015, 09:36 AM
There is a lot to read here so I'm just jumping in, sorry if this was already said.

Do you wear your hair down frequently? My hair eventually gets the same way if I have a few weeks/months where it is down all the time.

I do, it's my guilty pleasure and I know I really should wear it up more. I was doing really well last year and wearing my hair up all the time but then I went back to university....I'm starting to wear it up a bit more now though. Once I start practicum, I will for sure because it's mandatory.

ETA: I also have this bad habit that even when I put my hair up, i tend to fidget and readjust it and redo it multiple times so it's unneccessary manipulation.


A few years ago, I used only henna and a simple shampoo and conditioner that were silicone free, and in a year and a half... I had absolutely no split ends. Then I went to a salon last year in may, and the hairdresser made me make a keratin treatment saying how much it will help my thin hair... she also lied to me and gave me a serum that had so many silicones as main ingredients... result... split ends that traveled up to my chin (I had shoulder lenght hair)... Silicones work so well for many people but not for all, for me they always only worked in hiding the splits for a while... but they never made my hair healthier in any way :( just gave the appearance of being healthy, and it has always been like this, also before I went silicone free, result was always in split ends...So maybe you could try that? Cut those split ends out, and use things that are cone free? Give it a year or more and see how it works out.
I am still on my way to cut splits out because I didnt want a short haircut, and my hair is a complete mess :'(

I don't think sulfates or cones are causing me problems. I've been sulfate/cone free for a year and a half and while my hair didn't get any worse, it hasn't gotten any better - clearly I still have breakage/split ends.

Nadine <3
April 22nd, 2015, 10:05 AM
Ohh, if you haven't done much in the way of moisture, I highly recommend it! I do SMT's all the time (even in the ice cold, dry winters) with good results because I do them in the steamy shower and rinse well. Humectants are great for really moisturizing your hair. Also have you tried oiling your ends? My ends are almost always oiled and then stuck into a bun and I feel like that really helps protect my ends.

divinedobbie
April 22nd, 2015, 01:20 PM
Ohh, if you haven't done much in the way of moisture, I highly recommend it! I do SMT's all the time (even in the ice cold, dry winters) with good results because I do them in the steamy shower and rinse well. Humectants are great for really moisturizing your hair. Also have you tried oiling your ends? My ends are almost always oiled and then stuck into a bun and I feel like that really helps protect my ends.

I'm so confused about humectants :( Most people are telling me to avoid them but others are telling me to embrace them. I thought they were bad because they pulled out moisture from hair in low humidity. Unless when you say humectants, you mean specifically film forming ones only and not the normal kind. But SMT's usually have honey which as far as I know is one of those bad low-humidity humectants. I oil my hair at night and it helps. I don't wear my hair down often so I don't oil during the day but when I do start wearing it up more, maybe I'll try that.

divinedobbie
April 22nd, 2015, 02:41 PM
I did some research about dew points and humidity and the average here seems to be around 24% relative humidity and dew point of 1 degree Celsius (about 33 F I believe) which is very dry. I didn't realize it was that bad. This could very well be the culprit since many articles suggested that low dew point/humidity caused hair to be brittle leading to breakage, fly-aways and split ends (all of which I have). Now the question is, what do I do to counteract this? I'm still confused whether humectants are good or bad.

Arctic
April 22nd, 2015, 03:34 PM
Well I can tell about my knowledge about humectants, but it sounds like you yourself know more than I do :)

My knowledge is several years old, from the time when I was first actively growing my hair. There seems to be new information around these days. I'm not a chemist or expert and these are just things I have read, with no real knowledge of these subject (I say that before someone comes and blames me of being pseudo-scientific he he).

What I learned back then is really quite simple, and your theorizing sound overly analytical and technical to me. In other words it sounds like you may be thinking this all in too much detail and deeply. I mean we aren't supposed to or required to have PhD in chemistry or trichology to be able to buy shampoos and grow our hair. :p

What I learned that humectants always pull moisture to them due to their chemical structure and properties. Usually they take the moisture from the air and then hair can absorb some of it ( = moisturizing). To my understanding there is no scientific research done about humectants and hair in dry environment, but the theory was/is that if the air is very dry, humectants pull moisture from where-ever thay can get it, maybe even your hair (=drying). I think that in short hair (or near the scalp and neck) this isn't a big problem, as our skin always releases some moisture out (and humectants grab it and then hair can perhaps absorb some extra moisture). But on long hair this might be problem, if the humectants pull water from hair itself (clothes cover skin and it's moisture). Now this is very simplified theory, and doesn't for example take into account that an avarage commercial conditioner has lot of different ingredients that are designed carefully to work together.

Based on this theory, it's often recommeded here at LHC, that on dry climate/season one should avoid humectants, if they seem to cause problems. Not everybody who live in dry climate has problems with them, and on the other hand, not everybody who lives in "humectant friendly" environment benefit from them. I, for example, live in climate where over half of the year the inside air is very dry (central heating) and the outdoor air is also very dry for many months - yet I use humectants all the time around the year with no problems. My hair seems to like them.

There is a big problem also: lot of things are humectants. It's quite achievement to avoid them all, even if you would have pinpointed them as problematic. So that's why many have said, that for example try to avoid humectants in leaveins, but it's probably OK to do moisturising and humectant rich deep treatment and use moisturising and humectant rich rinse out conditioners, because you will likely to use them in steamy bathroom (moisture in air) or let them marinade under a showercap (moisture from wet hair and skin). It's seemingly contradictory, but when you think of it, it's very simple.

I hope someone more knowlegeable will jump in and give you better info about humectants.

In general I think you really should start a heavy moisturising regime, because you have been overlooking this important aspect. It is very possible big part of your problems stem from this. There is a thing called protein-moisture balance of hair, which I am sure you have heared of. If your hair get too much protein, or if it gets too dry, that means there is too little moisture and too much protein and the balance is off. If humectants do pull moisture out of your hair, that would make the balance of protein and moisture off (too much protein). If your hair is over moisturized from too moisturizing conditioners or your hair has lost protein or has not gotten enough protein, that means there is too little protein and too much moisture, and the balance is off. It really sounds to me like your hair might have too much protein, and that it would benefit from quite heavy longer term moisturizing plan.

The protein-moisture balance often takes a long time to get corrected, especially if it's tipped towards too much protein. It will need LOT of moisture and for long time to get into balance again. That is also why it would be important to quit using all protein products *now*. If the balance is already off, even very little bits of protein can make your problems worse, if the too much protein/ protein sensitive hair is indeed the source of your hair problems. Leave-ins are notorious for having lot of proteins. I saw the INCIs you posted earlier also had proteins in them. How about your new products?

I know the "new information" about humectants say, for example, that hydrolyzed proteins are humectants, if I remember correctly. This feels misleading to me. I'm not saying they aren't, I trust the scientists on this that they technically can be counted under the umberella term humectant. But because if a person had protein overload or protein sensitive hair, then ALL proteins are bad (for some their hair never likes protein, for some their hair does not like protein untill the moisture balance has been stabilized). I have such hair, so I know from experience (now that my moisture levels are good I can use occasional proteins, always followed with moisture). I would really wipe the whole thing about certain proteins being humectants off from your mind, if you find it confusing (I certainly do!). Maybe they technically are, but they are also proteins and as such can cause hair to dry (tip the balance of moisture and protein off). It sounds like a double- no, a triple whammy for a person whose hair need moisture, does not like protein and does not like humectants. So if your hair needs moisture and likes humectants, I would avoid proteins and use moisture and "old school", non-protein humectants (glycerin, honey, sugars, etc). If your hair is dry and does not like humectants, I would try to avoid all humectants and all proteins and use other moisturizing products (some non-protein humectants are probably ok in shower/steamy bathroom/under showercap/etc conditions, just remember to rinse out well) untill your hair is in balance again.

I would start using no-protein, moisturizing rinse out conditioner, shampoo without protein, make at least weekly moisturizing deep treatment (no protein), and always use leave-in (no protein), and if you oil, use that over leave-in and on wet hair. IF it looks like this no-protein and heavily moisturizing regime does not work after giving it a fair time (several weeks), then you know for sure protein is not a problem for you. If the protein does end up being the source of your problem, then AFTER you get the balance back, I think your more porous ends might like occasional proteins (but not before!).



Ofcourse I or no-one else can't say for sure this or that WILL help you. We can only give guesses based on our own experiences and what we have read over the years here and elsewhere. I bet also wearing your hair up more would help (would help your ends stay moisturized for one, and not rubbing for two). I also think like I already said, that micro trimming would probably do wonders too. You can still grow if you trim!



The demacration line of my growing out henna, I can't really know why I got breakage there. My hair just broke off from that spot, and I also had protein overload back then. I had used henna, full head application for years though, so there was probably big enough texture difference which created a weak spot at the edge of virgin hair and henna.

divinedobbie
April 22nd, 2015, 03:55 PM
Oh, lab tech here, very analytical :lol:

Thank you for explaining that! I'm going to do some heavy moisturizing treatments this weekend (and many weekends to come). I have honey at home and a moisturizing silicone free conditioner, all I need to get is some aloe vera and I can do some SMT's.

I threw out my leave in, only had a teaspoon of it left anyway. But you're right, it was absolutely laden with protein and now to imagine, my hair has gone through 150 mL of it in the past few months!

gthlvrmx
April 22nd, 2015, 04:15 PM
I'm so confused about humectants :( Most people are telling me to avoid them but others are telling me to embrace them. I thought they were bad because they pulled out moisture from hair in low humidity. Unless when you say humectants, you mean specifically film forming ones only and not the normal kind. But SMT's usually have honey which as far as I know is one of those bad low-humidity humectants. I oil my hair at night and it helps. I don't wear my hair down often so I don't oil during the day but when I do start wearing it up more, maybe I'll try that.

I read somewhere that the dew point has to be between 45-60 F for humectants to work well. I live in a dry area and I avoid humectants, but I tried SMT's recently and they have worked amazingly! I am assuming it is ok to use humectants if you are in the shower or if you put a shower cap on to trap all the moisture there. I mean, where else would you get moisture from if you are in a dry area? I think with humectants, it would be best not to use them as a leave in conditioner (that includes a regular suave naturals conditioner and just leave it on your scalp or just aloe vera by itself) or in some form of leave-in. Aloe vera and honey are also humectants. Sugary syrups, I believe, are also humectants which can be used (like corn syrup, molasses, etc) in replacement of the honey in an SMT.

So if you put a shower cap outside the shower, I'm pretty sure you can do well with humectants. That's just a guess based on what Arctic has said on here but it makes sense!

Arctic
April 22nd, 2015, 04:40 PM
Hey I'm glad you guys found my novel helpful :) I edited it after I first posted it, made it clearer and added some stuff.

divinedobbie
April 22nd, 2015, 08:55 PM
Read over the stuff you edited in :) I'm going to double check over my shampoo and conditioners to make sure they are completely protein free. I rememember one of them had that propyltrimonium hydrolyzed wheat protein which triple confuses me since it's classified as a silicone, protein and maybe humectant :p I'm just going to avoid that product altogether and you're right about just forgetting what I read about hydrolyzed proteins being humectants because that makes things complicated.

I have another leave in that I haven't really used. It's actually a blow dry balm advertised as "frizz resistance" and it has glycerin and propylene glycol. My impression is that anti-frizz products are for high humidity. Do you think I should use it? It has no protein.

I've been keeping my hair up yesterday and today, progress :)

I'm actually very excited to do some SMT's. I love doing deep treatments, they're so relaxing and rewarding to me. I never did them simply because I thought damaged hair = protein to fill in the cracks in the cuticle and strengthen it (and never thought I'd need moisture).