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cle90
April 4th, 2015, 03:48 PM
I was thinking of getting a Keratin Straightening done on my hair. It is not listed as a brazilian blowout, thankfully. I have quite curly, thick, frizzy hair. What is everyone's experience with it? :) I heard it is not very damaging. I know BB is known to have formaldehide, but the keratin straightening seems to be a difficult formula.

What do you all think of it?


Here is my hair:

Here (http://oi57.tinypic.com/t4v2mf.jpg)

and
http://oi60.tinypic.com/icto2p.jpg

MINAKO
April 4th, 2015, 04:32 PM
First of all, i think your waves are really nice and with length and time will probably define more, so you get alot of goodness out of your natural texture.

If thats not what you want, get a keratin treatment. Its pretty much the only straightening method i know and expirienced myself, that i can say is save, given that it is performed correctly. The great thing is it does not compromise the integrity of the hair by breaking down bonds, rather the opposite. New additional bonds are added and force hair to keeps a straigth(ish) shape.
What you can expect is hair in good condition, alot of shine, less tangling, easier moisture retention and quicker stylong time. What you can not expect is poker straight perfect hair like a japanese straightening offers, but that is very harsh and has obvious drawbacks. you can also not expect a keratin treatment to be temporary. Some ormost of the added bonds will "wash out" but some will stay in your hair and alter your texture forever, or better said u til you cut it. Its not as much of a difference as other straightening treatments, so wont leave a visible line in the new growth area. Just think long term if you want straighter hair. You get the most out of keratin treatments if you stick to them an habe them done twice a year, by a skilled stylist who can estimate how much heat your hair can take with no harm in th e process.

I went from a frizzy 2c hairtype to a smooth 2a and grown to classic. The thing is, if i want my hair straight, its easy to do, but i have to do it, and if i want to wear my hair out wavy i have to set it as well, because my lengths and ends got very straight with repeated use, but they are not showing a noticable amount of damage.
For me its a win. Im sure there will be other members havving different thought about this.

chen bao jun
April 4th, 2015, 04:41 PM
I was hoping Minako would chime in, she is the expert on this.

I would say she is right, if you can learn to like yours it's best. If not, look for her exact advice on what she does and follow it, her hair is beautiful. She is VERY careful though, remember that.

MINAKO
April 4th, 2015, 04:57 PM
Oh, yes! I should mention that after a few accidents in the past with cuts and a very bad japanese straightening, i took things into my own hands. So im doing the keratin treantment myself at home, researching, strand testing until i get it roght. The final application is something i need to do on a ay off, takes me 7-8 hours without stressing it. Butthn ithave 4-7 month of an easy time handling my hair and redo it depending on how much it has grown and how straight i would like to get it.
Of course im not saying no stylist will ever get this right, but they are often too lazy to communicate and just focused on you leaving the salon with very straight hair, the aftermath is not important to them.

meteor
April 4th, 2015, 05:11 PM
Subscribing! :) I've been hoping somebody would start a keratin straightening thread, because I don't see much reliable information about it (beyond marketing spiels, of course! :lol:)


Its pretty much the only straightening method i know and expirienced myself, that i can say is save, given that it is performed correctly. The great thing is it does not compromise the integrity of the hair by breaking down bonds, rather the opposite. New additional bonds are added and force hair to keeps a straigth(ish) shape.
What you can expect is hair in good condition, alot of shine, less tangling, easier moisture retention and quicker stylong time. What you can not expect is poker straight perfect hair like a japanese straightening offers, but that is very harsh and has obvious drawbacks. you can also not expect a keratin treatment to be temporary. Some ormost of the added bonds will "wash out" but some will stay in your hair and alter your texture forever, or better said u til you cut it. Its not as much of a difference as other straightening treatments, so wont leave a visible line in the new growth area. Just think long term if you want straighter hair. You get the most out of keratin treatments if you stick to them an habe them done twice a year, by a skilled stylist who can estimate how much heat your hair can take with no harm in th e process.

Does keratin treatment not break down bonds? :bigeyes: If it really reinforces the hair's structure, then it's something I'm really interested in... Does somebody have any information on how exactly it strengthens the hair's structure? Any links to any scientific research? Or maybe any info on the chemistry behind it or the ingredients to seek out and to avoid?
And a broader question is, of course: Which keratin straightening treatments are damaging? And which ones are strengthening? And how can we figure out the difference?
Thank you very much! :flowers:

Parisian Dozen
April 4th, 2015, 05:25 PM
Just judging from your picture your hair looks a lot like mine pre-keratin treatment (except 354% more adorable). I've had it done twice, and I'm not entirely sure if I regret it or not.

It's permanent-ish. The old growth hair won't be 100% it's natural texture - more like 75% of it. Pretty much everything in Minako's post is true (seriously - that was some /thread material).

I can safely say that it's not very damaging if damaging at all. I feel as though the biggest part of this is determining if it's something you want to do. Like, are you prepared to say goodbye to your curls? It has a lot of benefits - not gonna lie. Hell, I'd say in some cases it's can be very good for a person. It's more of a question of if you want/need to do it.

cle90
April 4th, 2015, 05:34 PM
Thanks everyone for the fantastic responses!

Does it tend to eradicate curls? I still like some ringlets or wave -- but I don't want so many curls at the roots and definitely not so much frizz!

*Does anyone have any after photos of a few months after the treatment when airdried? It's a great thing to go off of!

Thanks for all the help guys!

MINAKO
April 4th, 2015, 05:53 PM
Subscribing! :) I've been hoping somebody would start a keratin straightening thread, because I don't see much reliable information about it (beyond marketing spiels, of course! :lol:)



Does keratin treatment not break down bonds? :bigeyes: If it really reinforces the hair's structure, then it's something I'm really interested in... Does somebody have any information on how exactly it strengthens the hair's structure? Any links to any scientific research? Or maybe any info on the chemistry behind it or the ingredients to seek out and to avoid?
And a broader question is, of course: Which keratin straightening treatments are damaging? And which ones are strengthening? And how can we figure out the difference?
Thank you very much! :flowers:

I found some newer generatio treaments breakdown. Maybe not entirely, but its enough to draw conclusions from.
http://www.hairbyraigen.com/kerasilk_by_goldwell.htm

The bad in in these treatments aside from the formaldehyde that was added in the past IS the heat. No doubt, many advise to iron at 230C, i say try anything between 180-210C, probably less if your hair is really fragile or damaged. As i said, hair progressively straightens and defrizzes with repeated use, so it really doesnt make sense to fry the crap out of your strands in one single applycation. These treatments are meant to smoothen
and control in the first place, not give anyone bone straight hair.

meteor
April 4th, 2015, 06:11 PM
^ Thanks so much, MINAKO! :flowers: It looks great! :D I like that it's heavy on proteins. So if one used this non-formaldehyde at-home treatment but *without* the heat, then they could get some strengthening benefits without the damage, but also without much straightening? So could somebody use it just like a smoothing conditioner? :hmm: And if they used it *with* heat, then the hair would get straighter with thermal damage trade-off, is that correct?


A while ago I read the Beauty Brains article on keratin treatments, and it mentions this type of keratin treatment that's supposed not to break any disulfide bonds and is therefore less effective and temporary, but it intrigued me... Does anybody know any examples of these temporary treatments or ingredients? :flower:
"Surface treatment products (No disulfide bond changes)
Products that only coat the hair do not break or reform bonds at all. These are least effective but also least damaging. They are temporary and may last through a few shampoos depending on the formula. With current technology, the best you can do is a hair spray resin coating that is unneutralized which means its very hard to wash off."
http://thebeautybrains.com/2014/08/12/how-do-keratin-hair-smoothers-work-the-beauty-brains-show-episode-43/

Parisian Dozen
April 4th, 2015, 06:20 PM
Thanks everyone for the fantastic responses!

Does it tend to eradicate curls? I still like some ringlets or wave -- but I don't want so many curls at the roots and definitely not so much frizz!

*Does anyone have any after photos of a few months after the treatment when airdried? It's a great thing to go off of!

Thanks for all the help guys!

Luckily for you I have these.

Just give me a period of time and I will give you the best I got. It's been 354 days since I last had one, so I guess I'm more than qualified for this.

Larki
April 4th, 2015, 07:00 PM
How is this different from the Brazilian blowout? It sounds very, very similar, except that the Brazilian blowout treatment contains formaldehyde. But they both claim to be very protein-heavy and to straighten through the same method.

Nique1202
April 5th, 2015, 06:53 AM
It's the same process: frying extra protein onto your hair using heat. Whether or not the formula contains formaldehyde (most of the keratin treatments still do, or have a chemical that turns into formaldehyde during the process) it's still using heat, which will denature the natural protein in the hair, and just because it forces the new protein to bond to the natural stuff doesn't mean it's any healthier or better.

Obviously it's not as much damage as flat-ironing your hair every day for the same period of time as you'd go between treatments, but contrary to the unfortunately bad science in MINAKO's post, it does damage the integrity of the base hair. Anything that affects hair texture beyond a single wash will cause damage. It's just a matter of how much damage it will cause, how your hair reacts to the damage, and whether you're willing to trade off healthy looking hair past a certain length to have it straight instead of its natural texture.

MINAKO
April 5th, 2015, 07:04 AM
Nobody is saying that the treatmet cancels out the negative effects of using heat. But we have to be realistic here, that is ONE time of flatironing. How much damage can we possibly get from this staying withing a temperature that doesnt actually burn the hair (below 210C for healthy hair)
Its nothing compared to the damage i would get from my natural texture tangling and causing friction on itself every single day. Maybe i would have made it to classic with my 2c frizz bomb as well, but i would not have hair thats anywhere near healthy looking before 2020, lol.

MsVenus
April 5th, 2015, 08:03 AM
Minako, I totally agree that it makes curly hair much more manageable to achieve longer lengths with less day to day friction damage.... At least in my case. I had it done last year and my hair was a dream on normal wash days. The tangles decreased exponentially and the shine went up dramatically. More importantly, it saved my hair from the damage of frequent flat ironing or blow drying to smooth it out. The big, puffy frizz ball look was a thing of the past. It saved my hair from ripping out trying to detangle it. Once it was done, the tangles all slip out of my hair in the shower like butter and it dries frizz free and shiny. It feels amazingly soft, silky and luxurious and maintenance is a dream. Look at it this way, one flat ironing or two per year instead of several if it was curlier. Add to that the other benefits of increased manageability, hair requires less leave ins, less conditioner and looks even better with a lot less effort.
PS Oh, and I have to agree it also strengthened my hair. My hair is naturally very fine. This made it feel more substantial and less weak by far. That is how this works btw by fusing a protein coating on the hair to hold it into a smoother configuration.
That being said, the OP's hair appears that it could get similar benefits simply by air drying it with some normal conditioner left in along with some serum as in the conditioner only method.

meteor
April 5th, 2015, 12:42 PM
So I'm curious: for those of us who don't want to accept any formaldehyde or heat damage, are there any products at all on the market that create dramatic smoothing effect (kind of like, silicone serum on steroids) without any heat?
Maybe any take-home products that people are supposed to use between keratin treatments in order to make its straightening effect last longer? :hmm:

MsVenus
April 5th, 2015, 01:24 PM
The brand I use (Liquid Keratin 60 day) has nothing in it but cones and keratin protein. Also there is no heat damage from one flat ironing. I use a low temperature of 360 because I have fine hair.

MINAKO
April 5th, 2015, 02:12 PM
Seconding everything MsVenus said in her post!
I was very hesitant to grow my hair out again, because i knew what a pain it can be to handle it. There was a japanese straightening that went horribly wrong, so it was hip length with the lower half looking like cotton candy, but it was still easier to manage then my natural texture. However, i wanted healthy hair, so i cut to between chin and shoulder, kept it like this for more then a year. At least i could comb it, not have any terrible mats in the back if i didnt pay attention to it for a day, flip it upside down to wash, and manage to get some curl showing up when scrunched.
I knew that once i hit APL i either find a new way to smooth it out or would not be able to wear my hair loose. Curly girl would never work for me, because i naturally have straight hair in the front, big waves on top, smaller waves in my legth and some undecided curl at the nape, all with weird kinks through and through. Its just the type of hair that wont clump nicely and there is nothing natural i could have done.
So i was like, ok Keratin, either this works or i will cut it again. The product that actually led me to it was John Frieda 3day straight. I liked the effect and it even stayed straighter after the next wash.

Like MsVenus, i think its important that right after water there is hydrolized Keratin in the ingredients list. That sure indicates a good product to begin with. Cones are sort of mandatory simce there is a flat iron involved.
If there is some odf the hairs natural protein "denatured", for each one of these molecules destroyed you get ten "artificial" ones of which probably seven would completely wash out over time. That makes you end up still in the plus i guess, regardless wether the keratin grew out of your head or came from the bottle.You cant call it damaging if the heat setting is appropriate. That would be the same thing as to say Henna "ruins" any shade of blonde. You can totally get the results you want as a tradeoff for the oh so precious label that is 100%-natural. Not everybody cares for this.

Meteor, your question if its possible to get benefits out of the keratin without straightening effects is a good one. There are ways to do that, but it also means the treatment wont last as long as i would with high heat involved.
First it can be done just using a blow dryer, skipping the ironing process. There will be some smoothing after that already.
Second thing i know is using an ultrasonic/infrared iron. I have one of these babies to apply my deep conditioning. The device doesnt get hot at all (i can put my hand on the plate and its slightly warm from the infrared light), but the ultrasonic technology works in a way a jewelry cleaner would, helping to wiggle all the molecules of the treatment into available spots withing the hair, thus make them penetrate deeper and more evenly. These irons never got popular because they do nothing but this, not useable for styling, and they are expensive (between 200-300 i think, cheapest one would be the croc green light i think, im not sure if its a good choice tho, mine is a Beaute Ultrasonic).
So using that every two months with the treatment and each time you deep co dition would already pay off in terms of cuticle smoothing and moisture retention.
I sometimes mix a bit of my keratin in destilled water to do that, didnt like the aftercare products by most companies much to be honest, exept Goldwell Kerasilk mask, conditioner and leave ins. i already like their products before they came out with an in-salon smoothing treatment.

chen bao jun
April 5th, 2015, 06:20 PM
Minako, I totally agree that it makes curly hair much more manageable to achieve longer lengths with less day to day friction damage.... At least in my case. I had it done last year and my hair was a dream on normal wash days. The tangles decreased exponentially and the shine went up dramatically. More importantly, it saved my hair from the damage of frequent flat ironing or blow drying to smooth it out. The big, puffy frizz ball look was a thing of the past. It saved my hair from ripping out trying to detangle it. Once it was done, the tangles all slip out of my hair in the shower like butter and it dries frizz free and shiny. It feels amazingly soft, silky and luxurious and maintenance is a dream. Look at it this way, one flat ironing or two per year instead of several if it was curlier. Add to that the other benefits of increased manageability, hair requires less leave ins, less conditioner and looks even better with a lot less effort.
PS Oh, and I have to agree it also strengthened my hair. My hair is naturally very fine. This made it feel more substantial and less weak by far. That is how this works btw by fusing a protein coating on the hair to hold it into a smoother configuration.
That being said, the OP's hair appears that it could get similar benefits simply by air drying it with some normal conditioner left in along with some serum as in the conditioner only method.

Not talking against or pro ketain straightening here but curly hair doesn't need much handling when it's natursl. i never comb mine anymore, much less brush it. I wash in braids. Nowadays it does not tangle, thus there isn't friction.

BroomHilda
April 5th, 2015, 07:35 PM
I ve been using keratin treatments for more than 3 years in a row, doing it myself every 2-3 months, with the one liter bottle I ve been buying.
So after lots of research this is what I could add to what MINAKO said:

I m afraid there is no available information on how exactly those treatments work, the chemistry behind them and the extend of the damage they cause to hair.
It's definitely a washout treatment but this depends mostly on what temperature u re gonna use on your given hair width (thickness of individual strand)

That said, a head of coarse, virgin hair will revert at 100% to its original texture after (even multiple) applications with 230 C iron set.
A head of fine, colored hair would probably be permanently straightened , or worse, by the same application. So use your sense.
One, two or three applications wont damage in any significant level your hair, if it's relatively healthy and not overly thin. It's definitely worth the try, at least once!
I ve used AT LEAST 20 times at maximum temperature (230 C) and my hair was still in pretty good condition (given the fact I was also dying it every 2-3 months!)

What I don't know is if its going to compromise your effort of reaching super long hair. That means Hip and beyond. MINAKO might have pretty good genetics when it comes to hair, judging from her ethnicity and also by the fact she had reached HIP length with curly hair.
For an average caucasian with somewhat curly hair, of average growing speed, I m not sure.

MINAKO
April 5th, 2015, 07:59 PM
Chen, i think you can get away with not combing or brushing because your curls align and clump nicely, so hair doesnt move around alot itself and the seperated strands stay intact. That was not the case for me. My hair used to tangle simply by airdrying, even if it was perfectly detangled in the shower. Because of my inconsistent wave pattern and several textures mixed, some would shrink up, some would spiral and some would remain almost straight. No matter how healthy my hair was or how well i moisturized, it always ended up poufy looking. Sort of like uncared for dolls hair.

I agree with BroomHilda that it also comes down to genetics how well hair can take these treatments and what heat setting to choose. My hair isnt super coarse and each one of my Keratin application involves a very strong product, so full reversion would not be possible for me. I wonder if really coarse C hair would look exactly the way it did before tho, maybe after one time on the lighter side. But already two applications at 230C with the stuff i used so far, i doubt there is anyone who wouldnt have to geow it out to get their original texture back.
I'm afraid to go up higher than 210C because i have fine hair mixed in, but within these limits my hair is absolutely ok with the heat. If it doesnt split, break or tangle due to dryness the amount of damage is not detectable. What more could i ask for?

chen bao jun
April 5th, 2015, 08:09 PM
I never air dry my hair loose. I let it dry in braids.
just clatifying, nothing to do with the Keratin discussion

Parisian Dozen
April 5th, 2015, 09:12 PM
That said, a head of coarse, virgin hair will revert at 100% to its original texture after (even multiple) applications with 230 C iron set.


Not saying I have the coarsest hair in all the land, but my hair never fully went back to it's original texture. And I've done pretty much exactly what you said. A year after my first application my hair was kinda straighter, and a year after my second application my length is actually straight(ish) now. It could just be how I take care of it now or that I've simply gone insane, but still...

MINAKO
April 5th, 2015, 09:45 PM
Its the strength of the treatment i guess. Mine is supposed to last "up to 5 months" which means PERMANENT in my case. Something that is supposed to last 6-8 weeks probably leaves a chance for hair too fully revert.
I dont really have a timeline for touchups anymore, just whenever it gets harder to comb and baby hair is out of control again.
Im planning for another application within the next two weeks because i need to refresh my color and keratin should always be first, since fresh dye can kinda block it from penetrating. Otherwise, yes it does go along with henna/indigo and other herbs. I emailed a company about this question and they said no, but didnt specify a reason, so i figured i have to find out myself.

tigress86
April 6th, 2015, 02:03 AM
Those of you who do it at home, which exact products do you use? I have been wanting to try this for a while, but I have been putting it off since my ends are currently very damaged, I'm not sure if I should take the risk and do anything to my hair right now. I can imagine that my hair would be so much easier to manage.
There are two options that I have been looking at that I can buy in my country without a haistylist license: Cocochoco Professional and Alfaparf Yellow Protex. Has anyone heard about these treatments? I haven't looked into other options yet, probably I could order something else online.
Are you concerned about health issues while doing it at home? They say it's safe and formaldehyde free, but I'm still a bit worried. But I would rather do it at home, at this point I trust myself more than any stylist.

Upside Down
April 6th, 2015, 04:14 AM
MINAKO, what part of the process lasts so long (you mentioned 7 hrs)? Is it the flat ironing or application, or is it sitting in the hair so long?

I started considering keratin, just to get to wavy and less frizzy with less maintenance.
I love my curls and don't want to do something completely permanent (like, I would be OK with 6 months, a year, of waves, but as long as it eventually washes out).

Still, my problem is I just can not go to the salon for 4+ hours session, and don't have that time at home either. I could do it over a course of days, like half a head now and half later, lol :lol: if this is possible..

BroomHilda
April 6th, 2015, 04:30 AM
Parisian Dozen, fromm what you say I guess your hair is fine (width of individual strand) or either a mix of normal and fine OR damaged somehow. And most probably you used way too high heat for sealing the keratin.
I can assure you that my curls after so many times reverted back, maybe not my very ends cause they were damaged from coloring anyway, but my length shoulder-and-up reverted.

Tigress, I ve been using INOAR marroquino and QOD max. Both were professional solution and with formaldehyde. There is a trusted seller on ebay who sells INOAR 1L bottle for 130-140 dollars and ships worldwide. It's pretty damn worth it!
As for the formaldehyde issue, I am not really worried. All the fuss about it was primarily for the stylists. Using f/hyde solution like 2-8 times a day for each client wouldn't be the healthiest thing to inhale.
But as a home-treatment you wouldn't be using it more than once every couple months, in a ventilated area. Not so bad.

As for your ends, you can still go for it but use heat more moderately compared to your roots. That said, either use lower heat setting or (best) don't pass the iron more than 2 times.

MINAKO
April 6th, 2015, 05:25 AM
Tygress, I have used Coppola (original formula containing formaldehyde) in the very beginning but wouldn't really recommend it. The results were nice, but i did have breathing problems during the process as well as irritated eyes for like two days. I couldnt wear my contacts. Maybe i'm sensitive, maybe the concentration was particularly strong, but i wouldn't buy it again.
Then i used Eugene Perma (no formaldehyde, non irritating), which was the weakest out of all the treatments and kinda hard to work with since the product is very sticky. Again, results ok at least and no damage, but i wouldn't buy it again.
Then on to Dikson Keratin, which i loved. also no formaldehyde and the product is so pure i even mix it with destilled water to use as a leave in treatment. Full bottle is expensive tho (220eur i think) , but totally worth it. There must be a difference in the hydrolized keratin molecular structure. Regular hydrolized keratin you can buy as a single ingredient at the pharmacy does not work, so the prices for straightening products are sort of justified that way.
Recently i purchased Goldwell Kerasilk (no formaldehyde), which is a two component mix and also includes an aftercare serum. By far the most whopping price (350eur, i payed more because i wanted to try mask and leave ins) but a dream to work with. It also contains silk protein and glycoxilic acid. Best results out of all i tried so far. I went for the intense version. Strong in terms of straightening, super strong in terms of conditioning.
As for the ends, i would either turn the heat down or cut afterwards. In case they are that damaged you would have to trim sooner or later anyways, regardless of the treatment.

Upside down, i have classic length iii hair now, it used to take less time before that. However, im very precise when it comes to every single step in the process. i clarify my hair the night before and then dry it in braids. In the morning it goes:
30mins application, 30-45mins setting time, 30-45mins blowdrying, 2hrs+ toflatiron each half of my head, coffee and snack break in between (yes your arms will get tired), 15min swishing hair around like in a shampoo commercial lol, 20 mins to wash and apply finishing serum, afer that i just blowdry some of the excess moisture out and bun it till the next day. No need to completely style it all the way.
The good thing about Goldwell is that you have no waiting time where you have to be careful, onceinsed out theres no risk for it to leave kinks in your hair. But even with the waiting time it was never a problem for me. Just wait 3days and throw hair over pillow while asleep. I usually just waited a week until the next wash day anyways.
Of course you could do individual sections seperately to cut down on the time, like a quater or a half per session. Its just gonna look funny until you're all done.
One more thing i do is strand testing a week in advance every time before i use the product along with the high heat. I like to be very careful, bit didnt expirience any bad results yet.

ETA: i also have to stress the importance of the flatiron. You want to use a tourmaline (or any other ionic acting mineral) infused ceramic plates. Some companies recommend titanium which is less gentle on the hair IMO.
Best choice for me is the Cloud9 wide plate. Glampalm is said to be even better, but hey i cant buy every flatiron out there, which doesnt mean i havent actually tried to do so. :P

Panth
April 6th, 2015, 08:37 AM
As for the formaldehyde issue, I am not really worried. All the fuss about it was primarily for the stylists. Using f/hyde solution like 2-8 times a day for each client wouldn't be the healthiest thing to inhale.
But as a home-treatment you wouldn't be using it more than once every couple months, in a ventilated area. Not so bad.

Please don't be so blaze about formaldehyde.

I used it chronically, though in very small amounts and for much shorter exposure times than people are talking about here, in my job (lab work). I now have an allergy. It is a known sensitiser, irritant and permeator (it will help everything else in the solution cross your skin / mucous membranes), in addition to being corrosive, toxic and a suspected carcinogen. I agree that stylists should be most concerned about it, but that doesn't mean that home-users should think themselves risk-free.

MINAKO
April 6th, 2015, 10:50 AM
I agree about not taking the formaldehyde issue too lightly, but i dont know about the concentration of every single product. After all its a chemical feequently used in other industrial processes that hardly anyone talks about, so its not exactly as it we even had the choice to completely remove it from our lifes.

For those who are interested in an in depth review, This girl has pretty good videos on the treatment i talked about before, she did follow up on how she liked it and the way her hair reacted. She started out curlier then me, but from the look of her hair mine is more resistant, or stubborn (doesn't bend easily) a term i learned from Emichiee, idk if that says something about the porosity of the cuticle or the strength of the cortex.
Back to the review, the girl did the treatment two times i think and ended up not liking it as it destroyed her curl pattern, while her hair still looks very healthy overall. For more i recommend visiting her channel.


https://youtu.be/gdl3k2T_WdA

Panth
April 6th, 2015, 11:16 AM
I agree about not taking the formaldehyde issue too lightly, but i dont know about the concentration of every single product. After all its a chemical feequently used in other industrial processes that hardly anyone talks about, so its not exactly as it we even had the choice to completely remove it from our lifes.

I agree, very low levels are probably inescapable. For reference, the stuff I was using at work was 4% in saline. Your description of breathing problems and irritated eyes sounds, quite frankly, terrifying. The 4% I used never gave me any symptoms (except the allergy, which manifests both as a contact allergy to formaldehyde-containing plastics (bakerlite and similar) and essentially hayfever upon inhaled exposure - I am very, very lucky that it's nothing more severe than that). You could smell the 4%, though - a funny, semi-sweet smell that I personally think is reminiscent of pecan nut pastries.

I'm glad you aren't using formaldehyde-containing treatments now, Minako.

MINAKO
April 6th, 2015, 11:29 AM
The product had a tiny bit of a harsh smell in the bottle, but adding the heat was a whole different story. I have to admit i didnt educate myself enough on the matter before that, i simply heard about fumes and that i need some sort of ventilation, so i figured opening two windows would be enough. Certainly i will never go back to anything using formaldehyde since i had even better success with products not containing any at all.

On another note, i remember recommending this elsewhere but want to mention it again. If you are looking for something really subtle, try Aveda smooth infusion naturally straight. You can use it with a blowdryer or flatiron and its simply a styling product that progressively straightens. Claim is that after five consecutive uses after each wash it apparently keeps hair straight for the next three washes. i never style my hair that much, but the product is a good one, keeps hair smooth and the style locked in for a pretty long time. my hair will never airdry as a super sleek 1a, so even after many keratin treatment i still need to put a tiny little bit of effort in to get there. In any case i prefer that over a japanese straightening, wich did remove most of the wave but left hair still poufy, very light, dry and stiff.

Upside Down
April 6th, 2015, 11:54 AM
Upside down, i have classic length iii hair now, it used to take less time before that. However, im very precise when it comes to every single step in the process. i clarify my hair the night before and then dry it in braids. In the morning it goes:
30mins application, 30-45mins setting time, 30-45mins blowdrying, 2hrs+ toflatiron each half of my head, coffee and snack break in between (yes your arms will get tired), 15min swishing hair around like in a shampoo commercial lol, 20 mins to wash and apply finishing serum, afer that i just blowdry some of the excess moisture out and bun it till the next day. No need to completely style it all the way.
The good thing about Goldwell is that you have no waiting time where you have to be careful, onceinsed out theres no risk for it to leave kinks in your hair. But even with the waiting time it was never a problem for me. Just wait 3days and throw hair over pillow while asleep. I usually just waited a week until the next wash day anyways.
Of course you could do individual sections seperately to cut down on the time, like a quater or a half per session. Its just gonna look funny until you're all done.
One more thing i do is strand testing a week in advance every time before i use the product along with the high heat. I like to be very careful, bit didnt expirience any bad results yet.

ETA: i also have to stress the importance of the flatiron. You want to use a tourmaline (or any other ionic acting mineral) infused ceramic plates. Some companies recommend titanium which is less gentle on the hair IMO.
Best choice for me is the Cloud9 wide plate. Glampalm is said to be even better, but hey i cant buy every flatiron out there, which doesnt mean i havent actually tried to do so. :P

Wow, I don't see myself having conditions to do this any time soon :lol: my day is brooen apart by baby naps even if I ask hubby to take care of everything else. :/



On another note, i remember recommending this elsewhere but want to mention it again. If you are looking for something really subtle, try Aveda smooth infusion naturally straight. You can use it with a blowdryer or flatiron and its simply a styling product that progressively straightens. Claim is that after five consecutive uses after each wash it apparently keeps hair straight for the next three washes. i never style my hair that much, but the product is a good one, keeps hair smooth and the style locked in for a pretty long time. my hair will never airdry as a super sleek 1a, so even after many keratin treatment i still need to put a tiny little bit of effort in to get there. In any case i prefer that over a japanese straightening, wich did remove most of the wave but left hair still poufy, very light, dry and stiff.

Does this require heat to have effect? If, say, I am looking only for smoothing and more manageability, would I get it with drying in a bun or a heatless waves setting?

Thank you, MINAKO, you sure know your streigtening stuff!! ;)

MINAKO
April 6th, 2015, 12:10 PM
Upside down, for the Aveda naturally straight i would recommend blowdrying at least. It does give a tiny little bit of hold, but for the straightening some warm air and a bit of tension would be needed to get any effect out of it.
If you simply want to do a heatless waves setting, as for example with braids, I would recommend Kevin Murphy Smooth Again finished with a couple drops of coney serum. You also might want to try the leave in by Coppola, Keratin complex infusion Therapy. It one of my all time favorites and doesnt contain any harmful stuff like the originaly treatment. I wouldnt say it looses texture, but it does smooth th cuticle, adds softness and definition.

meteor
April 6th, 2015, 12:19 PM
OK, so I've finally looked into this topic and things are a bit clearer to me now. :)

About the permanence issue:
Keratin straightening is different from relaxers in that it is semi-permanent. Sodium hydroxide or ammonium thioglycolate in relaxers break bonds, while formaldehyde (methylene glycol), oxoacetamide/oxoacetic acid/glyoxylic acid (e.g. in Goldwell Kerasilk mentioned up-thread), cysteine/ethanolamine/cysteamine hydrochloride cross-link, reform some free bonds (and reducing a few bonds as well) - not all bonds are affected and the reformed bonds can break again, so it's semi-permanent. (But "keratin treatment" is really a bit of a misnomer - if you removed the keratin from the ingredients, the straightening would still happen due to the chemicals I listed above. Keratin is just a very helpful ingredient in general hair care anyway, especially when there is damage.)

Now, just because something is supposed to be semi-permanent, doesn't mean that your hair will necessarily revert to its original state - we certainly know this from semi-permanent dyes, too. It definitely depends on the degree of curliness, condition (virgin vs. damaged) and coarseness of hair, the specifics of the treatment (concentration, length of application, etc) and probably other factors.


I think this short article covers the differences between different products rather well: http://www.allure.com/hair-ideas/2014/keratin-hair-smoothing-treatment-how-to

Basically, for folks in the 1-2 hair types, there are usually much easier and less damaging ways of straightening hair - like blow-drying with smoothing lotions or combing out damp hair straight or wet-setting (water breaks hydrogen bonds and salt bridges enough to straighten that type of hair). But for curlier hair types, I'd suggest the Curly Girl method first, of course. Or if straight hair is a must for them personally, I'd suggest first looking into milder versions of keratin straightening before considering more permanent methods like relaxers.


For those who are interested in research into this, I'm afraid I couldn't find much out there yet (if somebody finds more, please do share! :flower:), but I'd recommend these:

Formaldehyde replacement with glyoxylic acid in semipermanent hair straightening: a new and multidisciplinary investigation - by Boga C, Taddei P, Micheletti G, Ascari F, Ballarin B, Morigi M, Galli S. - Int J Cosmet Sci. 2014 Oct;36(5):459-70. doi: 10.1111/ics.12148. Epub 2014 Aug 11. - http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/24962464/Formaldehyde-replacement-with-glyoxylic-acid-in-semipermanent-hair-straightening:-a-new-and-multidis
"The reactions between aldehydes and N-α-acetyl-L-lysine revealed the importance of the carbonyl electrophilicity and temperature to form imines. Raman and IR analyses on yak hair subjected to the straightening treatment evidenced rearrangements in the secondary structure distribution, conformational changes to the disulphide bridges, a decrease of the serine residues and formation of imines. It was also indicated that straightening produced major conformational rearrangements within the hair fibre rather than on the cuticle."

Analysis of structural change in keratin fibers resulting from chemical treatments using Raman spectroscopy - by Kuzuhara - Biopolymers 2005 Apr;77(6):335-44 - http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/15739182/Analysis-of-structural-change-in-keratin-fibers-resulting-from-chemical-treatments-using-Raman-spect
"We concluded that the heat treatment process in the permanent hair straightening treatment caused the randomization of proteins existing throughout the cortex region, thereby contributing to the acceleration of the reconnection of -SS- groups during the oxidation process."

An overview of chemical straightening of human hair: technical aspects, potential risks to hair fibre and health and legal issues - by Miranda-Vilela AL, Botelho AJ, Muehlmann LA - Int J Cosmet Sci. 2013 Sep 19. doi: 10.1111/ics.12093. - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24102549

Progressive hair straightening using an automated flat iron: function of silicones - by Dussaud A, Rana B, Lam HT - J Cosmet Sci. 2013 Mar-Apr;64(2):119-31. - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23578835
"Irreversible straightening of curly hair was observed and depended on the temperature and the number of cycles. The birefringence data suggested that the straightening was related to a gradual decrease of the microfilament organization. Silicone treatment did not significantly affect the course of microfilament denaturation, but it improved the quality of straightening. It enhanced the fiber alignment under the gliding action of the iron. Progressive thermal straightening may be a promising method to achieve permanent smoothing of curly hair without chemical treatment. Ironing at the onset temperature (∼154°C), before substantial disulfide bond scission occurred, seemed to be a good compromise between process speed, straightening performance, and hair integrity (i.e., reduced loss of cross-linking)."

Elevated formaldehyde concentration in "Brazilian keratin type" hair-straightening products: a cross-sectional study - by Maneli MH, Smith P, Khumalo NP - J Am Acad Dermatol. 2014 Feb;70(2):276-80. doi: 10.1016/j.jaad.2013.10.023. Epub 2013 Dec 9 - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24332313
"Formaldehyde concentrations in BKT (Brazilian Keratin Treatments) products may exceed recommended levels and serve as a health hazard. Industry monitoring is needed to improve compliance and protection of hairdressers and consumers."

Upside Down
April 6th, 2015, 02:01 PM
Upside down, for the Aveda naturally straight i would recommend blowdrying at least. It does give a tiny little bit of hold, but for the straightening some warm air and a bit of tension would be needed to get any effect out of it.
If you simply want to do a heatless waves setting, as for example with braids, I would recommend Kevin Murphy Smooth Again finished with a couple drops of coney serum. You also might want to try the leave in by Coppola, Keratin complex infusion Therapy. It one of my all time favorites and doesnt contain any harmful stuff like the originaly treatment. I wouldnt say it looses texture, but it does smooth th cuticle, adds softness and definition.

I think Keratin complex infusion therapy is worth a try.

Normally, heatles set such as the t shirt turban or saran wrap gives me great results with my coney creme from balea (that one is for curly hair actually but works nicely), but braids and buns give me so much fluff unless I have just done a henna gloss, then hair is heaven.

However, I wear it up all the time so I don't really have the patience for turban and doobie, and dry it in a bun most of the time, so fluffy hair happens, and I would love to minimize this.

I'm a curly trying to find a new streight-ish routine, so there is a learning curve. :lol:

Meteor, the first article sounds like it would explain what heat does in this process, but sadly it is not free access.
However, you do have a good point about keratin not being the active ingredient.

MINAKO
April 6th, 2015, 02:55 PM
I think Meteor is totally right and proves many previous statements about a certain permanence of these products. althought the structure pf the hair is not lessened, it is changed to something that ever look exactly like it did before. So i would advise everyone to think twice. Just trying it out one time might already be a point of no return. For me thats ok, i wouldnt want super long hair if it wasnt straight, so texture has priority over length. But as you see one doesnt exclude the other.

Upside down, if you are not successful with buns and braids, try overnight sponge curls. You only need about 4 sponges cut in half to make 8 rollers, maybe even 6 would do. So its a super quick thing. BeautyKLove on youtube has a few tutorials on that.
Something that works for me is hairagamis, i only need two of these, roll my hair into mouse ears with these thingys and when i get up i have big waves. It takes a bit of practise, wheter to roll up straight or twisted and how to make it stay put. But once you get the hang of it it takes two minites after applying your leave in.

BroomHilda
April 6th, 2015, 03:53 PM
MINAKO since you re still into keratin, could you recommend a few keratin treatments, formaldehyde/aldehyde free that can deliver MAXIMUM results? max possible straightening, max conditioning-smoothing effect.
It;s more than 3 years that I ve stopped following the keratin market

I know that pin-straight is not possible but right now I wanna switch to a safer bkt version and keep my hair low mentainance..

lapushka
April 6th, 2015, 03:54 PM
Quick question. How would it compare to perms and perm solution? Like regular curly perms (not relaxers).

meteor
April 6th, 2015, 04:12 PM
Quick question. How would it compare to perms and perm solution? Like regular curly perms (not relaxers).

Unlike keratin treatments, perms are, well, permanent and quite a bit more damaging.
With perms, the disulfide bonds are broken (usually, using ammonium thioglycolate in the so-called "cold perm") and keratin molecules are now free to move around and adjust to the shape of the curl on the curlers. Nowadays, there are methods like exothermic perms (self-timing and self-heating), and neutral, or low pH, thioglycolate-free perms, also, so-called "digital" perms ("hot perms") that utilize heat - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_perm. But all perms are damaging, I'm afraid.

Analysis of structural changes in permanent waved human hair using Raman spectroscopy - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17143860
"From these experiments, the authors concluded that some of proteins existing in the cortex region (the microfibril and matrix) of the virgin white human hair were changed, thereby leading to the remarkable reduction in the tensile strength of the white human hair after the permanent waving treatment."
Effects of permanent waving on changes of protein and physicomorphological properties in human head hair - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18528588

lapushka
April 6th, 2015, 04:17 PM
Thanks, meteor! I was wondering about that!

MINAKO
April 6th, 2015, 04:23 PM
Curly perms and relaxers are pretty much the same thing, at least the mild ones. Both are based on thioglycolate. Stronger relaxers use sodium hydroxide as far as i know and all of these work in a way to break bonds. Later with the neutralization step some of them are reformed, but since they are very harsh and there is no filler substance it results in porous and dry hair most of the time. A great curl definition and previously healthy hair can probably get away with this, but on the other hand, straightened curls, as they tend to be dryer to begin with have a horrible stiff look when straightened imho. I expirienced it myself and its not the kind i hair i personally find appealing.
With a keratin treatment only the bonds with the highest tension point get broken to a comparably very small dregree, only to get patched up immediately after that. I find the conditioning effect so strong that its still noticeble after more then a year ( i had longer breaks in between because i was satisfied for the moment with just a looser texture, then decided i want my hair as straight as possible).

I see how some facts would in theory create a view on the cons of this treatment, but for me there havent really been any apart from the time it takes and the money it costs. That isnt too bad tho, as i save on product afterwards and also never see a hairdresser. I wish i could give you guys a sample of my natural hair to see and to TOUCH and compare it to what it is now.

lapushka
April 6th, 2015, 04:30 PM
Thanks, MINAKO! I guess I should know by now how damaging perms are (my hair was riddled with white dots afterwards).

MINAKO
April 6th, 2015, 04:32 PM
MINAKO since you re still into keratin, could you recommend a few keratin treatments, formaldehyde/aldehyde free that can deliver MAXIMUM results? max possible straightening, max conditioning-smoothing effect.
It;s more than 3 years that I ve stopped following the keratin market

I know that pin-straight is not possible but right now I wanna switch to a safer bkt version and keep my hair low mentainance..

Oh, this thread is moving fast, lol.
i was already impressed with Dikson before, i think thats what i recommended when we spoke about it first. However i happened to try the Goldwell Kerasilk and oh boy, theres nothing better. You can mix up your own strength out of two components. One being the frizz reducing conditioning part, the other one the straightening part. My hair never came oit straighter and silkier so far. If i keep my hair in a messy bun for the entire weekend the comb just glides through, previously that would have been 20 minutes of detangling still.

MINAKO
April 6th, 2015, 04:36 PM
Thanks, MINAKO! I guess I should know by now how damaging perms are (my hair was riddled with white dots afterwards).

I agree, but i must say that i have seen plenty of digital perms that turned put pretty awesome on super sleek asian hair. It was just enough of damage to give hair a certain texture and bounce, like some people suggest with bleach. These people however did not intend to grow super long hair as we do in most cases, so at shorter legths it can still be ok i guess.

meteor
April 6th, 2015, 04:48 PM
Curly perms and relaxers are pretty much the same thing, at least the mild ones. Both are based on thioglycolate. Stronger relaxers use sodium hydroxide as far as i know and all of these work in a way to break bonds. Later with the neutralization step some of them are reformed, but since they are very harsh and there is no filler substance it results in porous and dry hair most of the time. A great curl definition and previously healthy hair can probably get away with this, but on the other hand, straightened curls, as they tend to be dryer to begin with have a horrible stiff look when straightened imho. I expirienced it myself and its not the kind i hair i personally find appealing.
With a keratin treatment only the bonds with the highest tension point get broken to a comparably very small dregree, only to get patched up immediately after that. I find the conditioning effect so strong that its still noticeble after more then a year ( i had longer breaks in between because i was satisfied for the moment with just a looser texture, then decided i want my hair as straight as possible).

I see how some facts would in theory create a view on the cons of this treatment, but for me there havent really been any apart from the time it takes and the money it costs. That isnt too bad tho, as i save on product afterwards and also never see a hairdresser. I wish i could give you guys a sample of my natural hair to see and to TOUCH and compare it to what it is now.

^ Great explanation about perms, MINAKO! :D

I can definitely see how for some hair types the damage from a light and infrequent keratin treatment can be significantly less than mechanical damage from constant straight styling or frequent detangling problems, so for some people it certainly works. :agree: I remember I saw a video with TorrinPaige (here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ao0kzZ_5eYA and in some other video) explaining how she flat-irons her hair sometimes in wintertime, because otherwise her hair is way too tangly and she looses more hair while snapping it during detangling than she damages by flat-ironing it once in a blue moon. I have trouble imagining it myself, but yeah, if I regularly lost quite a lot of hair due to simple detangling, might as well consider some smoothing methods, while being very cautious about damage.


Not talking against or pro ketain straightening here but curly hair doesn't need much handling when it's natursl. i never comb mine anymore, much less brush it. I wash in braids. Nowadays it does not tangle, thus there isn't friction.

You hair doesn't tangle even when you wear it loose? That's really impressive! :applause I'm really curious about your routine that helps you avoid tangles. :) Is it all about washing hair braided and always wearing hair up? Or is there more to it? :flower: Any tips or tricks, pretty please? :pray:

BroomHilda
April 6th, 2015, 04:59 PM
i happened to try the Goldwell Kerasilk and oh boy, theres nothing better. You can mix up your own strength out of two components. One being the frizz reducing conditioning part, the other one the straightening part. My hair never came oit straighter and silkier so far. If i keep my hair in a messy bun for the entire weekend the comb just glides through, previously that would have been 20 minutes of detangling still.

sounds really promising. How about the fumes and smell? How bearable is it? Is there a waiting period before washing?
How much heat does it need to set?

MINAKO
April 6th, 2015, 05:10 PM
There are no irritating fumes at all, zero. A bit of evaporation, more than if you use a heatprotectant because theres a ton of product in your hair, but thats it. Doesnt smell like much of anything. I still open a window to avoid the foggy vision, but its not because i would have health concerns.
You can wash right after you finished flatironing, then condition and apply the finishing serum.
I used 210C like i normally would, never higher for my hair, there are fine strands that demand to be respected, haha. At the very front and around the ears i take it down to 200C and do one pass less.

BroomHilda
April 6th, 2015, 05:16 PM
Hmmm.... do you maybe have a trusted seller to recommend?
I d rather buy less than half a liter to try it.... I m on a budget, currently, as well, can;t afford spending 200 euros at once

BroomHilda
April 6th, 2015, 05:16 PM
double message

MINAKO
April 6th, 2015, 06:21 PM
I only know one seller within europe who has that stuff online at all. http://www.beautyhair24shop.de/Kerasilk
At least they went down with the price since they stocked up on the product again. I think it was originally 156eur per component. Didnt look it up on ebay since in germany most of the time its professional stores selling there on the side to attract more customers.

chen bao jun
April 6th, 2015, 08:54 PM
^
You hair doesn't tangle even when you wear it loose? That's really impressive! :applause I'm really curious about your routine that helps you avoid tangles. :) Is it all about washing hair braided and always wearing hair up? Or is there more to it? :flower: Any tips or tricks, pretty please? :pray:

Meteor, I always thought my hair just tangled on its own, but it apparently gets tangles from things tangling it, if that makes sense. the things that I have found that tangle it are a) washing it, even when using care b) drying after washing c) lying down on it, especially sleeping and d) wind.

It was a while before I would commit to this becasue it seemed like it would be more work, but I now detangle my hair before washing, with conditioner in it (i do CWC) and wash it in 3 or 4 large braids. It doesn't need a lot of detangling then, because I have been making sure that tangles do not appear, so when I say 'detangle' I actually mean, remove shed hair with my fingers.

sometimes I take out one braid at a t ime while washing, but always make sure that my hair is kept carefully with the running down it so that it does not tangle while I do. After washing, I also dry it in braids, using a crown braid. And I braid it every night. and if I go outside and its windy, I make sure its up or wear a silk scarf.

And I have very few, if any tangles with this routine. I was tangle city before and yes, used to rip my hair out trying to detangle it. I have different kinds of hair on my head, like Minako does and my hair is more curly than hers and before this routine, what she described was my life. ETA: my hair does naturally 'clump' though and it makes ringlets. When I say 'braid' what I mean is separate gently with my fingers, not disturing curl clumps, and braid very VERY loosely to preserve said clumps.

What makes my hair tangle and fight me and everything else and break implements and hair toys is when I try to make it NOT have ringlets. Separating a ringlet into separate hairs and worst of all, trying to make my hair SMOOTH is death to my hair (and my sanity(

meteor
April 6th, 2015, 09:06 PM
^Thanks a lot, chen! :flowers: That's an awesome anti-tangle routine!

I remember ages ago reading your post somewhere about washing in braids, and I had intuition that it should work marvelously but thought it would be too long/complicated for me, but finally tried it and, oh my goodness, does it save on detangling time post-wash! :thud: I wash my hair in 4 braids all the time now. (I wish I could let it dry in braids too, but those braids never seem to dry on me. :hmm:)

Thank you very much, chen! :flowers:

chen bao jun
April 6th, 2015, 10:55 PM
You are welcome, meteor. glad to be of help.

It took me ages to bite the bullet and try braid-washing also. it does sound troublesome, doesn't it? But its not and it does save trouble.

the braids do take forever to dry, I am definitely also trying to find a way to get away from the braid drying. so far when I have tried wet bunning though, I get dry, shrunken problematic hair. I don't know why the difference. I am hoping it is hair length and that as I get longer, I can get away with this.

theoretically curlies can dry loose, a la curly girl, but in fact I have never figured out a way to do this with my particular hair. Tangle city.

MINAKO
April 7th, 2015, 04:26 AM
Chen, im sure you already tried this, but what about drying hair in twists. I usually find them to be drying waaay faster than braids. I also found that when i had my naturl texture and shorter hair that a using a diffuser attachment and warm air would add some definition.

cle90
April 19th, 2015, 11:59 PM
Hey guys! Quick question... so I have a little bit of henna in my hair, and I am getting my hair keratin straightened on Sunday. Will it change colour or lighten it in any way? Notice any colour differences after a treatment?

Thanks so much! Kind of anxious!

MINAKO
April 20th, 2015, 05:37 AM
If it contains glycoxylic acid it could lighten hair that has had chemical dye in it before. If your hair is natural whit added henna it should be ok, but i did read about henna turning brownish after heat application. I just did it yesterday and my color is exactly as it was before.

lapushka
April 20th, 2015, 07:25 AM
Hey guys! Quick question... so I have a little bit of henna in my hair, and I am getting my hair keratin straightened on Sunday. Will it change colour or lighten it in any way? Notice any colour differences after a treatment?

Thanks so much! Kind of anxious!

I think I would only worry about color changes and lightening if it actually was indigo (or mixed in).

MsVenus
April 20th, 2015, 07:34 AM
Henna is a coating so you could just do your henna again a week or so after you've done your keratin if needed.

sourgrl
April 20th, 2015, 09:42 AM
Minako, would you mind sharing your routine and product? I am very curious about this method. I miss the sleek waves I get from my 2 inch curling iron. The results my iron gave me looked very much like your hair in your profile pic. If I can get my hair to look like that with a little heat styling combined with keratin treatments it is worth the effort to me.

MINAKO
April 20th, 2015, 01:06 PM
Sourgrl, sure! :) I was just looking for a post where i decribed it but it seems to be somewhere else icant remember at the moment. Since i recently switched products and declared the latest one the best so far i might as well update. The process is similar in many steps but gives more options for different hait types.
So, im using Goldwell Kerasilk, which is a mix and match treatment. There are two components, one called Smooth (conditioning) the other Shape (straightening). Each solution comes in two different strengths and they can be mixed accordingly to your hairtype or preference. For example if you have thick curly hair but would like to keep alot of curl, but reduce alot of frizz you go for Smoothing in 2 and Shape in 1. Or fine hair that cant take alot of conditioning because it goes limp fast and is already fairly straight, 1 strenght for both solutions.
Steps go like:
-Clarify with shampoo
-Blowdry ( i airdry in braids)
-Mix solution and apply evenly
-Let sit for 20-30 minutes
-Blowdry
-Straigthen in very thin sections doing multiple passes (the number of these and also the heat setting totally depends on your hairtype and condition, i use between 180-210 doing about 4 passes. Never let anyone near your hair with 230 hot irons and then doing something crazy like 10 passes, of course hair will be straight but also damaged in the long run)
-Wash hair (yes immediately after, no waiting time)
-Deep condition
-Apply finishing serum, which apparently "locks" in the protein even more.
-Style as you like

Thats what i did yesterday for roughly six hours, taking my time, doing each step as exact as i can. I admit it takes some practise, but one you got it down its mostly a matter of time. I reached classic and feel like my arm are getting to short, but it was still ok. In case anyone want to do it at home make sure you pick a day where you know you are up for this and wont be in a hurry for anything later. The product, although fantasic, can only work as well as it is used.
After the serum i let my hair airdry for one more hour and then throw it up in a bun with some leave in and a timy bit of oil.
Its not bone straight, but thats not what its supposed to do. It takes me from 2c to about 1c while making my hair feel better than before. Absolutely no frizz, no tangles and super soft.

Otherwise my routines consist of weekly CO washing with a cone free condish, a home made rinse of coffee, sage tea, molasses and ascorbic acid. Then later some oils and coney leave ins and alot of bunning. I detangle daily, sleep with a silk bun cover and henndigo my hair only a few times a year to keep it really black with no fading. Quite simple actually. Keratin made growing so easy for my naturally tangly hair, also in case i want to style it i dont even take half the time. Straightening it afterwards doesnt take alot of time.

BroomHilda
April 20th, 2015, 02:33 PM
Hey minako, I d really like to see a clear photo of your hair (airdried preferably) from the front or back, if that's okay with you. I m just curious how the results of the keratin look like on you.

MINAKO
April 20th, 2015, 04:14 PM
I will try to make one tomorrow in the morning. Clear is not exactly a given with an apple device, but in case theres enough daylight i should be able to. Picture of my bun is already in the photo thread, not so much texture to see there, but sleek and shiny it is. :)

BroomHilda
April 20th, 2015, 04:41 PM
Yeah I've seen your huge shiny bun, but I d like to see the full length and texture. I bet it ll be astonishing (no matter the texture) at this length.

arelrios
April 20th, 2015, 05:18 PM
As I mentioned in the other thread... you experience with keratin makes me really want to try it :)

MINAKO
April 20th, 2015, 06:10 PM
Arelrios, its not as much of a commitment as a chemical straightener would be, but still can be pretty permanent on some textures. My hair is pretty resistant and will never go completely straight. After some time it just fluffs back up, but still feel nice and well conditioned. So even if i didn't continue to use the treatment i wouldn't have to big chop.
If you try it just make sure you find a hairdresser you absolutely trust and is willing to customize the treatment to your hair. Or consider doing it yourself which gives you the option to strand test and touch up etc.

BroomHilda, if you wanna see length i can deliver. Its not that i didnt try to take pics, but they turned out like crap and no App can save low resolution phone shots, but disguise a mess in the background, hehe. For now im only leaving a before (clarified and brushed out braid waves, it doesnt get any fluffier, but good for product self-application control because wherever is still poufing needs more liquid, looks kind of as close as i can still get to my natural texture but tangle free) and after (almost too flat and also not shiny yet because too much product left a powdery residue, was gone after the wash of course). Airdried tomorrow morning.
Second pic is the hair i lost in the process, always upsetting but i always barely shed for the next three days, so it doesnt really "cost" any hair.

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/image.jpg2_zpsjzqxybvk.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/image.jpg2_zpsjzqxybvk.jpg.html)
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/image.jpg1_zpsmjoevfui.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/image.jpg1_zpsmjoevfui.jpg.html)

sourgrl
April 20th, 2015, 06:24 PM
Thank you so very much for the detailed information Minako. It is incredibly helpful. Beautiful hair <3

MsVenus
April 20th, 2015, 08:29 PM
OMG Minako, your hair is GORGEOUS! It is everything. You take very good care of your lovely locs.

MINAKO
April 21st, 2015, 02:18 AM
Sourgrl, MsVenus thank you! :blossom:
The only disadvantage i see with this treatment for me personally is that woth more length it will be harder to do, so if i dont find a hairdresser i trust i will be limited to what i can do with it on my own. I Would like to grow maybe 6 inches more, not sure if that is possible, but i will try.

MsVenus
April 21st, 2015, 03:35 AM
Minako, I personally find that with length you can get lovely waves from buns and braids. I just let them loose and the hair looks wonderful with no hairdresser whatsoever. I am just mindful to leave in nice conditioners and oils to strengthen and lubricate the strands. I now focus on hair sticks for nice buns, oils and conditioners that I leave in. When I let it loose and it does fine on its own with no stylist. I have gone #TeamNOScissors, so I don't need a stylist even for that. If I do decide to trim, I simply used bands all the way down...but I won't be doing that either for at least a year or two.

BroomHilda
April 21st, 2015, 05:33 AM
BroomHilda, if you wanna see length i can deliver. Its not that i didnt try to take pics, but they turned out like crap and no App can save low resolution phone shots, but disguise a mess in the background, hehe. For now im only leaving a before (clarified and brushed out braid waves, it doesnt get any fluffier, but good for product self-application control because wherever is still poufing needs more liquid, looks kind of as close as i can still get to my natural texture but tangle free) and after (almost too flat and also not shiny yet because too much product left a powdery residue, was gone after the wash of course). Airdried tomorrow morning.
Second pic is the hair i lost in the process, always upsetting but i always barely shed for the next three days, so it doesnt really "cost" any hair.

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/image.jpg2_zpsjzqxybvk.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/image.jpg2_zpsjzqxybvk.jpg.html)
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/image.jpg1_zpsmjoevfui.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/image.jpg1_zpsmjoevfui.jpg.html)


Hmmm the first picture reminds my hair texture when brushed out, just more fluffy. Your hair is really something though.
This is all the hair you loose in a kerarin application??
I loose double this amount of hair in every day basis, and I have half of your hair. No wonder how you reached classic. I m doomed to midback length. I m really jealous of your hair minako. I bet at that length it ll look astonishing with your natural texture

missblueeyes
April 21st, 2015, 05:56 AM
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/image.jpg2_zpsjzqxybvk.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/image.jpg2_zpsjzqxybvk.jpg.html)
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/image.jpg1_zpsmjoevfui.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/image.jpg1_zpsmjoevfui.jpg.html)

Hijacking this thread to add myself to the thudpile. :thudpile: Wow!
Your hair is incredibly pretty, Minako! I love both variations, the straight and the wavy one.
I would love to try out your length for a day to see what that'd be like and if it were still possible to wear it down regularly.

MINAKO
April 21st, 2015, 06:25 AM
Missblueeyes, thank you! :) I have to admit that i dont wear it down very often when i go outside because im super clumsy with bagstraps, or getting stuck in things or people. a half up with hair pulled to one side i comfortable tho, thats a good midway option.

Broomhilda, thank you too. I took some pic airdried this morning. You can clearly see the difference. I cant really fluff my hair up anymore right now. It super soft and will get a bit straighter even with some oilings and a few deep treatments over the next to weeks, then its set and super heavy and from there on very slowly starts to revert. I got a bit more up close so you can see the wave pattern and texture better.

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/image.jpg1_zpsqv9pzw5y.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/image.jpg1_zpsqv9pzw5y.jpg.html)

lapushka
April 21st, 2015, 07:34 AM
MINAKO, lovely pictures. I actually love your waves - a lot! But then I'm biased. I'm wavy myself, so... ;)

MsVenus
April 21st, 2015, 07:46 AM
Minako, did you say how often you do your keratin treatments and what brand you use?

MINAKO
April 21st, 2015, 07:59 AM
Thank you Lapushka! :flower: Yes i think its pretty wearable like this, also its going to smooth out a bit more towards wash day as i add more leave ins. It blowdrys straight pretty easy like this, but i want to give my hair a rest from all the handling i did over the last days. Maybe i should wear braided buns to bed or something and just get used to the rest of wavyness i have left

meteor
April 21st, 2015, 11:18 AM
Oh MINAKO, what stunning hair you've got! :thudpile:

I LOVE both the wavy/curly and the straightened versions! :applause

(Oh and that shedding/breakage from BKTs looks very minimal, indeed.)

MINAKO
April 21st, 2015, 11:22 AM
Minako, did you say how often you do your keratin treatments and what brand you use?

Sorry sorry sorry, i swear i somehow did not see your posts before. I keratin about every four to five months and its been alot of times now, maybe 10... not sure. i recently switched to the goldwell product and expirimented with it for quite a while , Its called Kerasilk. I would say thats my favorite, but there are quite a few good options. I would suggest for people to post their/or their hairdressers product on here for all of us to analyse it before anyone takes a plunge. There is also quite dangerous stuff out there, even when it comes to DIY, like the home kit by Schwarzkopf,that caused many people a big chop. Thankfully i never used that.

MINAKO
April 21st, 2015, 11:29 AM
Oh MINAKO, what stunning hair you've got! :thudpile:

I LOVE both the wavy/curly and the straightened versions! :applause

(Oh and that shedding/breakage from BKTs looks very minimal, indeed.)


Thank you Meteor. Yeah, the waves are nice, but its funny how i still even have them after so many times. But the are so managable, i actually think im going to try a few of BeautyKLove hairstyles again. Also i wish i could find curlformers my length to play around with these, seen people getting their hair kinda straight and very bouncy with these.
The shed is really not so much, i also lost not single hair the day after and today maybe 3.

arelrios
April 21st, 2015, 01:56 PM
Love your hair... the color is to die for... and the shine??? Gorgeous... As I said before... your results make really want to try it ;)

Upside Down
April 21st, 2015, 02:01 PM
MINAKO, gorgeous hair!

MINAKO
April 22nd, 2015, 07:21 AM
Arelrios and UpsideDown, thank you! :)

I just quickly updating this because i know alot of people are worried about breakage and shed. Today (day 3 after) six sheds and two broken hairs about 5cm long. Thats ok because i think these are mainly undected fairy knots, they will break after straightening but would have to be cut out anyways, and even without these i never have absolutely zero breakage. Thats just what my hair would do naturally and it comes to a minimum now.
Also my bun size is back to normal, initially it always feels a bit thinner because you need to give your hair the chance to soak the moisture back in that has evaporated previously.
If i notice any changes in my hair, may they be positive or negative i will update with more pics here.

chen bao jun
April 24th, 2015, 09:32 AM
Chen, im sure you already tried this, but what about drying hair in twists. I usually find them to be drying waaay faster than braids. I also found that when i had my naturl texture and shorter hair that a using a diffuser attachment and warm air would add some definition.

Thanks Minako, but twists just un twist in my hair. I'm surprised they stayed in yours as I thought it was because of my texture, and you have a looser curl pattern than I do. I have known other type 3c to have problems with twists staying twisted. I can do rope braids, but not twists and have them stay.

Your hair looks great both before and after keratin. I'm lazy so if mine looked like yours does before, I wouldn't bother, but you just have beautiful hair period.

Too lazy to use my diffuser attachment too. I remember standing for over an hour holding that thing up, ouf. Anyway I have lots of curl definition naturally, I've got natural spiral curls without doing anything, don't need product even, it's just the drying time that's an issue I hope to solve one day.

oddelabop
April 24th, 2015, 10:32 AM
Sorry to change topic slightly, but theoretically then, say you were using the keratin 60 treatment and then at the straightening phase used a crimpers instead, would this semi permanently crimp your hair instead of straightening it?

MINAKO
April 25th, 2015, 06:34 AM
Chen, im not sure what the difference between rope braids and twists is, but i do them differently to make them stay put. Twist a strand thightlythen pinch the middle and take the ends up to the root with your other hand. If my hair is damp it usually stays well but i still pin the ends.
Yes, drying time takes forever, i was actually considering to get myself a hooded dryer so i dont have to wait overnight and still have a fresh out the shower look to my hair in the morning.

Oddelabop, good question, i never tried to crimp my hair or put a curling iron to it, i giess it would work but the pattern would stretch rather quickly.

MsVenus
April 25th, 2015, 07:01 AM
Sorry to change topic slightly, but theoretically then, say you were using the keratin 60 treatment and then at the straightening phase used a crimpers instead, would this semi permanently crimp your hair instead of straightening it?
Hi Oddelabop. I think you would want to use a permanent wave solution for what you are requesting and instead of heat, you would set your permanent wave on Conair Wave clips or even on Curlformers with the permanent wave solution.
https://dtpmhvbsmffsz.cloudfront.net/posts/2014/08/02/53dd43dcfab836273e0abe83/m_53dd43e2fab836273e0abea2.jpg
This is a totally different technique and is for producing waves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3dhhSBj_P4
If you desire to create tighter crimps or kinks even, you can set the hair through and around these crimpers with the permanent wave solution. You can wrap the hair like in a figure 8 along these crimpers.
http://image.dhgate.com/albu_231359945_00-1.0x0/diy-pink-sponge-hair-soft-curler-roller-strip.jpg
http://www.dhgate.com/product/diy-pink-sponge-hair-soft-curler-roller-strip/134315386.html
Again, I would use a permanent wave solution and heatless set for what you're asking about. I do not think a keratin treatment would work for this though. Since you want it semi permanent, I would go with a gentler, acid permanent wave kit instead of an alkaline kit.

Illryeth
April 25th, 2015, 07:16 AM
I have had a keratin treatment before done at a salon (the hairdresser said it will help my weak hair), but notice that my hair is extremely thin to begin with so maybe this is why I had amazing results at first and it got horrible after a while, so I am talking about my own experience, I am not saying it always ends up like this, many people probably got along just fine with it, however I didnt.
Anyway, from what I experienced and heard it can cause a lot of heat damage, because they dont lock the keratin in by just using a normal heat like the one where you flatiron your hair everyday, they use it MUCH higher, multiple times (probably 4 times on the same strand). I have also researched and found out that plenty of women went along just fine with one application but after something like the 5th application their hair started to fall of, and that may be because of the stress used by the extreme heat, to lock the keratin on your hair.
My experience was, that the first month I received compliments on my hair more than ever in my entire life, I had volume, my hair was EXTREMELY shiny, etc... happens that after that month tangles got more and more, to the point where they reached close to my scalp and I would just hear my hair breaking no matter how gentle I was with it. After 3 months I changed shampoo, not the one they recommended and I noticed how almost all the effect faded away, and my hair was left stringy and without power, to put it short, in a way worse condition than it was before I did the "treatment"... not to say that I paid quite a bit for it. So that keratin was practically just an outside mask but inside the reality was that my hair was fried.
The treatment was Kerastraight and the hairdresser wasnt completely honest regarding of the ingredients inside, gave me something full of silicones even after what I told him how bad my hair reacts to them, and told me not to use another shampoo, so you can imagine the buildup ON TOP of all that keratin, not to even say how much his assistant pulled my hair, and the smoke that got out of my hair...
Since then I am just applying henna so that my hair has a bit more strength, and after the treatment, I noticed henna has straightened my hair naturally so that is great.
Just like I said, this was my experience, and it doesnt mean it has to end up this way, my hair is weak to begin with, and as you can see many other people had amazing results with it.
I think its much more worth if you do this with a person that is TRUSTFUL... not some hairdresser that only cares to make money, and not about your hair. Search someone competent, and that cares for your hair`s health.

meteor
April 25th, 2015, 10:35 AM
^Illryeth, thanks a lot for sharing your experience. I think this is actually a very common problem and I remember we had a few reports by LHC-ers about cumulative damage they got from BKTs at salons: first hair looks great, but then gets progressively worse with repeated applications at the salon, especially if done frequently. Using a solution that is too strong, keeping it in hair for too long, too many passes with the flat-iron... all this contributes, of course.
Honestly, for straight hair in the 1a-c category, no-heat straightening should do the trick and it's unfortunate that the salon pushed BKT on you (without informing you about the damage and not telling you the ingredients). For smoother, straighter hair, check out hair-wrapping techniques, jumbo foam rollers, straightening with a scarf/ribbon wrapped around ponytail and other damp-setting techniques for straightening hair. And for 1b hair, even small things like sleeping on satin/silk, covering hair in silk when it's drying in roller-set, using oils and silicones can make a big difference.

meteor
April 25th, 2015, 10:36 AM
^Illryeth, thanks a lot for sharing your experience. I think this is actually a very common problem and I remember we had a few reports by LHC-ers about cumulative damage they got from BKTs at salons: first hair looks great, but then gets progressively worse with repeated applications at the salon, especially if done frequently. Using a solution that is too strong, keeping it in hair for too long, too many passes with the flat-iron... all this contributes, of course.
Honestly, for straight hair in the 1a-c category, no-heat straightening should do the trick and it's unfortunate that the salon pushed BKT on you (without informing you about the damage and not telling you the ingredients). For smoother, straighter hair, check out hair-wrapping techniques, jumbo foam rollers, straightening with a scarf/ribbon wrapped around ponytail and other damp-setting techniques for straightening hair. And for 1b hair, even small things like sleeping on satin/silk, covering hair in silk when it's drying in roller-set, using oils and silicones can make a big difference.

Illryeth
April 25th, 2015, 11:49 AM
Thank you very much for the tips!
It was my mistake :( and it wasnt even for the straightening effect, I didnt even know what a keratin treatment is or what it is supposed to do, I simply went to the hairdresser with my mom, and I told him my hair is very weak and he said he has the perfect treatment for my hair, and me stupid and desperate I accepted, telling him what my concerns are, and he agreed and told me they dont use those kinds of ingredients... it seemed so perfect and I told him I want to think about it...(go home and google :D) and I ended up not even thinking about it and just going for it... such an impulsive thing but... long hair is something I wished for all these years, until I was 11 I had long hair all the time, tailbone length, then it started to fall, get extremely greasy, even change to curly (I had completely straight hair, after 11 years it went curly, not wavy, but curly!!!...and now since a few years its straight again, I know how it sounds, it sounds strange but its true...)...and since I was 11, I wasnt able to grow my hair past my shoulders ever again, now I am 21, and this guy just promised me a head full of hair... I immediately took it *shy* *feeling stupid*...

meteor
April 25th, 2015, 12:50 PM
^ Hey, don't feel "stupid" about it, it's normal to trust professionals, I just wish professionals were more transparent about their products and procedures. When I first heard of "keratin treatments", nobody said they could be damaging... some hairdressers like sell keratin treatments as healthy treatments, because no client wants to go to a salon to do something damaging. And the word "keratin" in the name makes it sound healthy too, but it's a bit of a misnomer: hair is made of keratin and hydrolyzed keratin deposited on hair temporarily gives it additional structure and strength, if not overused, but that's actually not what makes BKTs work, these treatments use one of the following routes of chemical semi-permanent straightening:
- Formaldehyde/methylene glycol
- Oxoacetamide/Oxoacetic acid/Glyoxylic acid (behaves like formaldehyde)
- Cysteine and Ethanolamine / cysteamine hydrochloride


Have you looked into things like hydrolyzed protein treatments, like Joico K-Pak, Aphogee 2-Step or DIY gelatin treatments (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2014/04/gelatin-protein-treatment-recipe-update.html), as well as pre-poo oiling (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2014/03/oil-pre-shampoo-or-pre-wash.html)? I find they really help a lot with chemically processed hair.


And here is a really helpful article by Nightshade: Damaged Hair: Understanding, Preventing & Rehabilitating - http://web.archive.org/web/20120125071723/http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/vbjournal.php?do=article&articleid=79

Oh and by the way, changing texture with age is pretty normal, as far as I understand, for example, with hormonal changes young adults go through. :)

Wishing you a happy and fun hair growth journey, Illryeth! :flowers: :cheer:

Halliday
April 25th, 2015, 12:54 PM
i have heard people talk about how it really damaged their hair and it's hard to keep up with straightening new growth and expensive and stuff. i personally wouldn't do it plus you have gorgeous hair.

MINAKO
April 25th, 2015, 02:29 PM
Damage if done right - no
Hard to keep up with newgrowth - no (i think its bearable to invest a couple hours in your hair every five months or so)
Expensive - not more expensive than going to the salon for cut and color every few weeks

I think all the common misconceptions about these products keep repeating themselves. I also would always suggest to research the ingredients of a product before letting any professional put it on your head, they are supposed to make you look amazing the moment you leave the salon but sadly are often uneducated about aftercare or haircare in general.

chen bao jun
April 25th, 2015, 03:55 PM
Chen, im not sure what the difference between rope braids and twists is, but i do them differently to make them stay put. Twist a strand thightlythen pinch the middle and take the ends up to the root with your other hand. If my hair is damp it usually stays well but i still pin the ends.
Yes, drying time takes forever, i was actually considering to get myself a hooded dryer so i dont have to wait overnight and still have a fresh out the shower look to my hair in the morning.

Oddelabop, good question, i never tried to crimp my hair or put a curling iron to it, i giess it would work but the pattern would stretch rather quickly.

Twists are when you just part your hair in two and twist one half around the other half until you get the end, at which point you put a fastener on, if you need it. Some afro curlies (the people who most commonly do twists) don't even need to put the fastener. the hair just stays twisted. I have seen this, unbelievable as it may sound to those who aren't afro curly. Some people twist the hair and it stays fastened if they get to the very bottom and switch to a regular (three strand English) braid just for the very end.

If you are a person with no curl pattern and you just twist hair, it untwists itself extremely quickly, even IF you fasten the bottom. therefore, you do rope braids. Rope braids (shown by Torrin Paige and others in videos on youtube) are when you part you hair in two, pretwist each half in hand and twine it around the other half in the opposite direction than the one you twisted it in. It's hard to explain in words. this somehow anchors hair and makes the twist stay (when you fasten the bottom).

I definitely have a curl pattern but if I just twist my hair, no matter what I do, in spite of fastening the bottom or braiding it, the twist will untwist itself. Not fast, as it will in non-curly hair, like zoom. But it won't take more than 15 minutes or so before my hair is not twisted anymore and if it has a tie on the bottom, I'll have a saggy mess of loose hair with a tie around the bottom. If my hair is wet, I will have a wet mess of saggy hair. it works neither wet, nor dry, it just doesn't work.

If I do a rope braid, however, twisting each strand on itself and then twisting it around the other, it will stay (if I put a tie on the bottom). It will stay all day.

I just learned to rope braid recently and I still have to think about it when I do it,s o its rather slow, but it works.

I have been 3 strand braiding, English, French or German for about 50 years and that's very automatic, no thinking, I can do this right side up, upside down, sideways, large or small, whatever, practically in my sleep. 3 strand braids stay braided in my curly hair. The ends do not unravel and they do not fall down or unwind. I can do two of them going up the sides of my head (french, german or lace) and then I can tie them around each other and tuck the ends in and that will stay up, looking like a crown braid and I do not even need to secure them with pins. I can do this wet or dry, no difference.

Other hypercurlies (black people, basically, I know only one person I would call a hypercurly that isn't black or mixed with black) never believe me when I say my hair doesn't two strand twist, they say I don't know how to do it, they say it isn't possible for 'our' hair not to two strand twist, they offer to teach me how to do it, they twist my hair to teach me me and yeah, it untwists every time. then they say, wow and then they say, you need some product and give me the name of some gummy type gel or beeswaxy full something and tell me that my twists would stay if I used whatever they suggest.I'm sure that's probably true. But no, thanks.

(Other hypercurlies have also been known to tell me that my hair is damaged in some way, saying it must be 'heat-damaged' is something I've heard several times, when they try to style my hair, and they will argue with me when I say, no its not damaged at all, its very very healthy, this is what healthy 3c hair is like. Its afro curly but if you are used to styling the various kinds of type 4, it feels limp and
floppy and not springy enough and just--strange. But its SUPPOSED to be like that. It's not damaged type 4 hair and its not frizzy type 3 hair, its itself and when you get used to it, its not hard to deal with. Of course, if you are trying to make it behave like looser, silkier type 3 hair or like type 4, it is absolute hell and does NOTHING you would expect).

all this has nothing whatsoever to do with keratin straightening, other than I think a lot of 3cs would be seriously tempted to try this or some other straightening method, because the process of learning to deal with this particular hair type is very hard, you can't really follow advice for non-afro curlies (at least I can't) yet the techniques that are supposed to work for all afro-curlies (the crowd that love to talk about 'our' hair in a clubby way, even when they admit that 'our' hair is actually not all the same, they often don't stretch the parameters far enough to fit 3c very well) often don't work either. Sooo----

Benign neglect is the best best advice I have ever heard for ME (not giving anybody else any advice), I'm just sorry it was 50 plus years before I finally got this advice. Benign neglect, provided that you know how to moisturize. Which I didn't know. Dry 3c hair is worse than hellish. Its ugly, ugly, ugly. The great virtue that 3c hair has, the lovely spiralling, can't happen when its dry and you just have hair like straw sticking out looking horrible no matter WHAT you do, natural or straightened. And feeling worse.

I have actually got not one but TWO hooded dryers, left over from the days of all my various hair adventures, but I only use them for heat conditioning nowadays. They might minimally speed up the drying process but not much and if I hate holding up a hand held dryer for an hour or more to try to dry my hair, I hate being stuck under a hooded dryer for what can be 8 hour or more stints, even with heat, which speeds things up. I actually bought dryer number two, which has a soft plastic cap rather than a hard one, so that I could have the option to lie down and go to sleep while drying my hair instead of being stuck in a seated position like I was with the hard hat, even though the soft takes even longer. I'd rather have a wet head than use those things to actually try to dry my hair again.

meteor
April 25th, 2015, 04:07 PM
I have been 3 strand braiding, English, French or German for about 50 years and that's very automatic, no thinking, I can do this right side up, upside down, sideways, large or small, whatever, practically in my sleep. 3 strand braids stay braided in my curly hair. The ends do not unravel and they do not fall down or unwind. I can do two of them going up the sides of my head (french, german or lace) and then I can tie them around each other and tuck the ends in and that will stay up, looking like a crown braid and I do not even need to secure them with pins. I can do this wet or dry, no difference.

Hi, chen bao jun! :waving: I'm very curious about those German braids. I've never heard of those.. are there any tutorials? :) It's not the same as a Dutch braid, is it?

chen bao jun
April 25th, 2015, 04:13 PM
Maybe I said German instead of Dutch, its where you French braid but backwards so that the bumps show on top? I get confused as to what the various braids attached to your head are called because honestly, I think of them all as types of 'cornrow' but know that non-AA people don't get the meaning of that word.
Sorry if I made a mistake.

lapushka
April 25th, 2015, 04:18 PM
Maybe I said German instead of Dutch, its where you French braid but backwards so that the bumps show on top?

Yep, that's a Dutch braid. :D

meteor
April 25th, 2015, 04:22 PM
^ Oh, OK, so I think it's "Dutch" then :) : they are very similar to cornrows, but not exactly the same (http://www.chocolatehairvanillacare.com/2011/01/difference-between-french-braids-dutch.html) (Dutch sits on top of middle section, cornrow incorporates all hair, incl. middle section). Thanks, chen! :) I'm just always on the look-out for new braids, hopefully not too difficult! :flower:

oddelabop
April 26th, 2015, 05:33 AM
Thanks for the response ms Venus! I guess I was curious as the original brazilian blowdry suggests that you don't get your hair wet at all for 48 hours after treatment and if you get a kink in your hair to straighten it out - I guess that'd imply that if your hair got kinked, it'd likely stick in that position - but I have no idea about this I guess I was just hypothesising and wondering if anyone else had done it!

MINAKO
April 26th, 2015, 05:47 AM
Chen, thank you for explaining. I get the difference between twist and rope braid now. I guess the thing i tried would be a reverse flipped rope braid then.
I know drying can be a pain in general, it does take more than the entire night for me as well. I always though a hooded dryer would get the job done in an hour or so at maximum, but if it takes almost as long i will probably think twice before i get one. I always want to try big rollers, which i haven't had in my hair since like ten years, so im sure theres things in terms of technique i could still learn if im willing to be stuck in the house with them for an entire day, lol.

And ooooh, curlformers. Why dont they make these in XXL? I really wanna try, but not use two rollers on each strand. :/

oddelabop
April 26th, 2015, 07:18 AM
Aren't these curl formers basically just a perm but DIY? And if so that's very damaging is it not?

MINAKO
April 26th, 2015, 07:50 AM
Curlformers are just rollers in another way, you dont have to use them with perm solution. just wet setting the hair is what i would try as something temporary until the next wash. I dont think these tools are more damaging than other heatless styling option, so basically it depends on how gentle and careful you handle the hair while doing this.

chen bao jun
April 26th, 2015, 12:03 PM
I was really surprised that you could twist with your hair type, Minako, now all is explained.

Curl formers arent a perm. I'm turned off by the fact that you use a crochet hook with them though.

I think Minako s hair is too long for them.

MsVenus
April 26th, 2015, 12:24 PM
Aren't these curl formers basically just a perm but DIY? And if so that's very damaging is it not?

In the video I posted, the stylists DID use curlformers with a perm to set permanent spiral curls in the hair. But as someone else said, you do not have to use them with perm solution. That is just an advanced application that can be used with curlformers.

Minako you can get XXL curlformer type curlers on ebay from China. They may be called Magic Leverag curlers and by other names. They do come in many sizes so if you search on ebay, you may find the larger diameter but only in the generic brands. I have some name brand Curlformers and I also have some of the knock offs from China. They are almost identical, only the knockoffs are a bit firmer to the touch and come in more sizes and more lengths than the original.
Here is a link for 55cm long curlers. http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-all-size-magic-leverag-curlformers-hair-curlers-rollers-Spiral-Ringlets-/301309665220?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item4627749fc4 I am not sure if that is the longest length or not but you could let them drop down from the root and leave the roots straight with these.

Here are some others http://www.ebay.com/itm/24-Pcs-Fashion-Long-Wide-DIY-Curl-Formers-Magic-Hair-Spiral-Curlers-With-Hook-/271837212595?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=570668923988&hash=item3f4ac2afb3

Actually, I see the original Curlformers has a longer kit now that is 60cm long that they call barrel curls
http://www.curlformers.com/glam-up-kit-Barrel-curls.htm

meteor
April 26th, 2015, 12:59 PM
Chen, thank you for explaining. I get the difference between twist and rope braid now. I guess the thing i tried would be a reverse flipped rope braid then.
I know drying can be a pain in general, it does take more than the entire night for me as well. I always though a hooded dryer would get the job done in an hour or so at maximum, but if it takes almost as long i will probably think twice before i get one. I always want to try big rollers, which i haven't had in my hair since like ten years, so im sure theres things in terms of technique i could still learn if im willing to be stuck in the house with them for an entire day, lol.

And ooooh, curlformers. Why dont they make these in XXL? I really wanna try, but not use two rollers on each strand. :/

About hooded dryers, does anybody what their advantages are? :flower:
I've only tried hooded dryers a couple times in my life and I got so sick of the heat, boredom and headache (from closed space and that loud sound for hours)... I thought if people tolerate them they must be a lot better for hair than ordinary hair-dryers, but does anybody know if they are?


Curl formers arent a perm. I'm turned off by the fact that you use a crochet hook with them though.

I think Minako s hair is too long for them.

I remember reading somewhere on the LHC how people hooked together curlformers by the ends to make them twice as long... :hmm: I don't know if they use a special kind of curlformer for that or if they all have that capability... That would require twice as many curlformers, of course.

chen bao jun
April 27th, 2015, 10:37 AM
Meteor the advantage of hooded dryers is that since the heat isn't directly touching your hair and since your hair is protected by end papers and rollers you can get styled hair without the damage blow dryers cause. also, you can get a lot body, if your hair tends to be flat.

They use them in George Michael salons.

It can be a pamper ing thing to under a hooded dryer, if someone else roller set you and you have a few hours to spare.

meteor
April 27th, 2015, 12:45 PM
^ Thanks a lot, chen bao jun! :D That's great to know! :thumbsup:

Upside Down
May 3rd, 2015, 09:07 AM
You know, I think I am done with my curls. I hardly ever wear them down, and when I did a few weeks ago, I didn't really enjoy them. It's like, they are pretty but not right for me. Streight or wavy looks way better with my face.
It is also a more polished look. Stays better looking for days. Updo's look SO MUCH better. I can detangle more often and not have massive problems when I do.

Now it is a two day process to get to streight-ish hair. Lots of work and it is not representable for wearing down, though I do it for nicer updos.

I may give this a few months, but I think I am done with my curls and ready to go keratine... Hell, I'll find the time, night if necessary...

MINAKO
May 3rd, 2015, 01:59 PM
You know, I think I am done with my curls. I hardly ever wear them down, and when I did a few weeks ago, I didn't really enjoy them. It's like, they are pretty but not right for me. Streight or wavy looks way better with my face.
It is also a more polished look. Stays better looking for days. Updo's look SO MUCH better. I can detangle more often and not have massive problems when I do.

Now it is a two day process to get to streight-ish hair. Lots of work and it is not representable for wearing down, though I do it for nicer updos.

I may give this a few months, but I think I am done with my curls and ready to go keratine... Hell, I'll find the time, night if necessary...

That was the case for me too. No matter how hard i tried to make my waves look defined and even, it would be a frizzy mess in a few hours. Also they did not compliment or enhance my features in a way i would like. My face is very flat and slim at the same time, i just dont do too well with alot of volume. Looks more like a five year old wearing a wig than vavavoom sexy. With updos i especially like how my baby hairs that fall out are super straight, so it gives the illusion of perfect 1a hair even ifs it only halfway there when i dont style it.
At the moment im travelling and my routine is so easy. Actually i had a few people commenting on my hair already, when i wouldn't think London is a place where people get easily excited about how someone else looks.

Upside Down
May 3rd, 2015, 03:33 PM
Yeah. I prefer streight against my face too, but the upkeep of this no heat streightening is killing me.
And besides, I won't grow past tbl and will be happy with waist.

I might come back to this thread for more help when I finally do this :lol:

MINAKO
May 11th, 2015, 03:00 AM
Small update on the condition of my hair. it takes a while until the saturation of moisture in the hair settles. Usually you can only tell this by the weight of it as it is silky smooth afterwards to begin with but now i got the heaviness back, most likely a bit more. No breakage, no excessive shedding whatsoever. The shine and the managability are still exactly the same and i have noticed a few strands falling very very straight now when i take my bun down. i think for less resistant wave patterns its pretty easy to achive a solid 1a after the 2nd or 3rd time.

Upside Down
May 31st, 2015, 03:09 AM
MINAKO, hope you don't mind, I have some questions for you.
I think I will do this sooner than I thought. After another time of wearing hair curly I realize now I will either cut to collarbone or streighten. And I'd rather not cut...

Do you think I should get intense or medium formulation?
Hair looks like this (http://www.dodaj.rs/f/3A/jZ/vPbE7Zt/2015-04-18-151030.jpg)when airdried. Diffused a bit more fuzzy.
I don't want perfectly streight hair. This (http://www.dodaj.rs/f/1A/aq/1dxverVr/fbimg1433061107186.jpg) is blowdried with a round brush and after some hours. I am OK with this or even a bit more wave. (on the left, brown hair).
I think maybe intense shaping and medium smoothing? Or just both intense?

Can you recommend a seller in Germany? (Somehow I poaced you in Germany in my mind, sorry if I am wrong).

What iron should I get? I don't own one.

Do you have a video on how to apply it that you'd suggest?

Thank you!

Maverick494
May 31st, 2015, 01:43 PM
Okay, do NOT do this. I haven't read all of the replies to this thread but I did the keratin treatment for the same reasons you want it and it was A WASTE OF MONEY.
Oh, it looks absolutely marvellous when you step out of the salon. It shines like a mirror and it's pin straight (too straight for my taste, but I knew that was only temporary.) Then you wash it and the shine is gone. It's basically the same frizzy hair, only a wee bit less wavy/curly. Wait a few weeks and you're trying to tell yourself it's not back to what it was before, but it is. A complete waste of money. Now, I didn't notice an increase in split ends or anything, so I guess it didn't damage my hair, but I could have done a lot more fun things with the money I spent on something that did not make any difference to my hair.

And if you're doing it yourself, you gotta keep in mind you're supposed to straighten every single hair on your head. It's a lot of effort. And not worth it at all IMO.

sourgrl
May 31st, 2015, 04:17 PM
Like anything involving heat and chemicals, one should proceed with caution. Everyone's mileage varies. Minako's experience has been great and I have found the information shared here very valuable. I think many have found the info in this thread very helpful. Well worth reading all the posts then making the decision to use it or not.

MINAKO
May 31st, 2015, 04:26 PM
Maverick, im sorry you had bad expiriences with those kind of treatments, but not all of them are created equal and this thread is basically there to get behind the science and acoid the most common mistakes. Most of the ti e its rather the tech ique causing problems then the product. Of course there are some superior and some of a lesser great quality treatments available. Used correctly they can well live up to their claim and giving great results.

Upside down. Yes, exactly. If you want straight hair with some volume, i would go for Shape/intense and Smooth/medium. You dont seem to have alot of frizz and hair on the finer site. I did use both in intense but was actually thinking of switching to a medium for the touchups, because i think that would already be enough. But then again i might as well dilute both products with destilled water and probably get the same results. I havent actually tried medium strength in comparison, so i can only guess, but intense means intense and lasts for a. looong time, however i dont think intense would be doing any harm in that case, so it really depends on if you want to ease your way into it or go as straight as possible the first time.
Your hair is in a great condition. Would be a shame to cut it just because you do not lile the texture.

The products are available in single application sizes on this site. Perfect for anyone trying it the first time.
http://www.roemer-haar-design.de/goldwell-kerasilk-smoothenes-set-intense-medium-p-12436.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjw4qqrBRDE2K_z7Pbvjo8BEiQA3 9AImXxOgXiMGE5AsJP0hit-6-HzQk4RC0TJmKrwH2RO3V4aAhDl8P8HAQ
i think hairshop24 and hagelshop only have the bigger sizes if any stock at all.
Either i would recommend the cloud9 iron, but i suppose the one sold by goldwell would do a decent job as well. However, make sure it has good ionic mineral infused ceramic plates and a reasonable temperature control.

I think the videos by goldwell on youtube are pretty decent actually when it comes to aplication and honest when it comes to presenting results. I have a written step by step guide here in this thread already but looking at it will certainly make it clearer. If you are quote familiar woth a normal straightening process it shouldnt be too hard, just takes a long time as you work in very small sections..

Upside Down
June 1st, 2015, 03:06 AM
First, thank you again for the reply. Your opinion means a lot since you obviously have a lot of experience with it and keeping your hair as healthy as possible. All my friends who did it went to the salon, and I want to avoid that at all costs.

Second, Roemer shop is AWESOME. I thought I would need to buy big size right away and was already thinking of talking a friend into going diy so we can split! :lol: kidding, but, this allows for so much more room for error! Yes! I am so happy now :lol:

I will definetly invest in a good iron. Good thing is Goldwell is available here localy.

As for concerns stated here. Well, I am nervous. Almost like going for cosmetic surgery (I assume). Especially since I've never really changed my color to something drastic and irreversible (henna I can dye over, I am dark).

However, I know my hair can take a flat ironing once in 6 months. I did a lot worse to it and still grew to waist or more. My goals with lenght are not beyond tbl, anyway, and that may be too much.
Now, curls just don't look good, to me. I would need to cut in order to embrace my texture, and I really don't want to.

I'll be traveling till the end of the month and probably can do this in July... I'll post results!

cdmo
June 3rd, 2015, 02:25 PM
This thread has been so enlightening. Can anyone recommend a good home keratin treatment that ships to the US?

yahirwaO.o
June 4th, 2015, 09:56 PM
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/image.jpg2_zpsjzqxybvk.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/image.jpg2_zpsjzqxybvk.jpg.html)
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/image.jpg1_zpsmjoevfui.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/image.jpg1_zpsmjoevfui.jpg.html)

Oh my :agape:.... your hair is simply fantastic, and must be very strong.... love those awesome waves and your hair straight is my sort of archivable lenght goal.
My hair is naturally very smooth and sleek, no need for anything, bit I have to say you make such good job at kerating treatments if you shed that small amount. If I try half of those things, I think mine will be badly damaged. :eek:

MINAKO
June 4th, 2015, 11:17 PM
Thank you! :)
Yes im very very careful in the process, thats a big part of why it takes such a long time, but totally worth it in the result. It gets easier tho over time, as i always take some of the benefits of the last treatment into the next one. i think i can get away with doing it only twice a year now, since my regrowth is never to wavy or frizzy to begin with.
so far i dont think i had to trim away more than i would have if my hair was naturally straight, but for the handling i really wish it would just grow like that.

cat11
June 6th, 2015, 02:16 PM
MINAKO, your hair looks so good, and your little line kitties are so cute :D Seeing your results, I've decided to file away this idea for a time when I have gotten bored with the virgin hair thing

MINAKO
June 6th, 2015, 06:34 PM
Cat11, thank you! Yes you have to be aware ofthese treatments being more of a commitment then they are advertised. Once you are sure i can onöy recommend to try it.
Small update i can give is that my hair starts to become slightly more voluminous again, but not reverting in texture yet. my ends are super nice and actually my hair is overall so slippery now that my buns drop down at least once on most days, maybe its an awkward length stage right now but i can definitely tell its got to do with increased smoothness as well. Im currently not dealing with tangles at all and also didnt find any fairyknots recently. im planning the next treatment for late september, should be enough to maintain the results. if i can go longer of course i will.

Alex Lou
June 7th, 2015, 03:45 AM
Wow, I really want to do this now. It would be an investment though!

mdvl
June 11th, 2015, 06:05 PM
Keratin straightening is generally safe, but lasts only for a few weeks, or if you wash your hair rarely it could last longer. Some people do not want to straighten hair permanently, in this case keratin is perfect. Japanese straightening (http://japanesehairstraightening.i8.com) is permanent and is safe if you do not have highlights and when done with real Japanese products, but they cost a lot, so the procedure also will be expensive ($500+). If japanese straightening costs $150 it means they use fake products and most likely it will damage your hair.

HintOfMint
August 24th, 2015, 12:22 AM
*Bump!*

I think I'm going to bite the bullet and have a keratin treatment done. I'm tired of the frizz and poofiness, but mostly, I'm tired at the unpredictability of my hair. I would rather it just look "done" on a regular basis without having to spend a lot of effort styling it. I like low maintenance but I'm officially over the natural look.

Minako's suggestion of Goldwell Kerasilk is really expensive and not really available for purchase online in the US, so I'm going to go with Liquid Keratin 60 Day. (http://www.folica.com/hair-care/keratin-treatments/liquid-keratin-60-day-straighter-smoother-stronger-and-longer-treatment) since I would rather try it out at home. I keep hearing that even the salon treatments don't really last too long, so I would rather not spend that kind of serious cash ($100 minimum, and that's with a groupon or somesuch thing)

Wish me luck for when I get around to it. Anybody have any experience with this brand/formulation?

KittyBird
August 24th, 2015, 01:15 AM
Best of luck, HintOfMint! I hope you'll post pictures when you've done the treatment :)

arelrios
August 24th, 2015, 08:05 AM
*Bump!*

I think I'm going to bite the bullet and have a keratin treatment done. I'm tired of the frizz and poofiness, but mostly, I'm tired at the unpredictability of my hair. I would rather it just look "done" on a regular basis without having to spend a lot of effort styling it. I like low maintenance but I'm officially over the natural look.

Minako's suggestion of Goldwell Kerasilk is really expensive and not really available for purchase online in the US, so I'm going to go with Liquid Keratin 60 Day. (http://www.folica.com/hair-care/keratin-treatments/liquid-keratin-60-day-straighter-smoother-stronger-and-longer-treatment) since I would rather try it out at home. I keep hearing that even the salon treatments don't really last too long, so I would rather not spend that kind of serious cash ($100 minimum, and that's with a groupon or somesuch thing)

Wish me luck for when I get around to it. Anybody have any experience with this brand/formulation?

I've been thinking about this for a while too... Ugh... Humidity and frizz are not good... But I'm scared of damaging my hair :(... :lesigh:

HintOfMint
August 24th, 2015, 11:34 PM
Best of luck, HintOfMint! I hope you'll post pictures when you've done the treatment :)

Will do!


I've been thinking about this for a while too... Ugh... Humidity and frizz are not good... But I'm scared of damaging my hair :(... :lesigh:

I hear ya. It depends on how well your hair stands up to one session of serious heat and manipulation. My hair is thick and coarse so I take that into account for how well my hair is going to withstand the process. My hair is also undyed, unpermed, and almost never heat styled. I'm not worried about an extra tussle with heat styling in light of my hair type and history.

I would be more cautious if my hair was spider-silk fine, or has bleach damage.

Well, my order is placed! Eep! Excited!

arelrios
August 27th, 2015, 07:34 PM
Guys, anyone have heard of 'hydro keratin'? If so, any comments or thoughts about it???

MINAKO
September 3rd, 2015, 12:34 AM
Arelrios, i guess thats just keratin in hydrolized form as it would be used in any other product. Sometimes they specify and sometimes they don't i guess, but of coure it wouldn't work if it came in solid form.

Its been 4 months, a bit more maybe. My last treatment is slightly wearing off but the condition of the hair is still extremely nice. No problems with any damage whatsoever, wave pattern is pretty decent, no frizz and it shines like a m.f. Lol.
I'm thinking of doing my next one in two weeks as i will be moving again end of this month and would like to leave with freshly keratined and hennidigoed hair.

Will keep you guys posted as always. :)

Johannah
September 3rd, 2015, 02:36 AM
Best of luck, HintOfMint! I hope you'll post pictures when you've done the treatment :)

Seconding this :D

MINAKO
September 3rd, 2015, 03:55 AM
I'm excited to hear about different products too.
Was thinking to use something weaker the next time to not wast the goldwell stuff cause its still going really strong. Like 70-80% of the effect is still there. I'm a frizz and tangle free flat 2a still. No way my hair would EVER revert to voluminous 2c.

arelrios
September 3rd, 2015, 12:29 PM
Arelrios, i guess thats just keratin in hydrolized form as it would be used in any other product. Sometimes they specify and sometimes they don't i guess, but of coure it wouldn't work if it came in solid form.

Its been 4 months, a bit more maybe. My last treatment is slightly wearing off but the condition of the hair is still extremely nice. No problems with any damage whatsoever, wave pattern is pretty decent, no frizz and it shines like a m.f. Lol.
I'm thinking of doing my next one in two weeks as i will be moving again end of this month and would like to leave with freshly keratined and hennidigoed hair.

Will keep you guys posted as always. :)

I see... Thanks for the explanation. Well, I am still considering doing it... But money, specially, makes me keep putting it off :( :lesigh:... Also the damage... For some reason I am afraid that I might end up with destroyed hair ��

HintOfMint
September 3rd, 2015, 08:16 PM
Finally finished the main process! Only took me three and a half hours. :thud: Most of it was the flat ironing part. I followed the instructions of the Liquid Keratin 60 Days, and it called for a wash, blowdry to 80-90% dry (I airdried for most of it), apply formula, wait 15-20 minutes, blowdry completely dry, and then flat iron everything. The instructions say for coarse unprocessed hair, one should use seven passes. I was definitely thorough and made sure to use small sections to really seal the treatment in on every strand. Oof.

Now the instructions say to wash with a sulfate free shampoo made for those with keratin treatments, so I'm using the bottle of CHI that I ordered with the Liquid Keratin.

Fingers crossed that this process actually has some effect!

Upside Down
September 4th, 2015, 05:25 AM
Seven passes? Minako, how many do you do with Kerasilk?

I'm finally ordering mine today :happydance: I will get it sometime next month, yeeeey!

Johannah
September 4th, 2015, 06:21 AM
Finally finished the main process! Only took me three and a half hours. :thud: Most of it was the flat ironing part. I followed the instructions of the Liquid Keratin 60 Days, and it called for a wash, blowdry to 80-90% dry (I airdried for most of it), apply formula, wait 15-20 minutes, blowdry completely dry, and then flat iron everything. The instructions say for coarse unprocessed hair, one should use seven passes. I was definitely thorough and made sure to use small sections to really seal the treatment in on every strand. Oof.

Now the instructions say to wash with a sulfate free shampoo made for those with keratin treatments, so I'm using the bottle of CHI that I ordered with the Liquid Keratin.

Fingers crossed that this process actually has some effect!

*fingers crossed* :pray: How is your hair now? :o

MINAKO
September 4th, 2015, 07:51 AM
If i remember correctly the kerasilk instructions call for 4-6 passes on unprocessed hair. But usually i keep it on the low end and only do 2-3 passes on the fragile hair near the hairline.
I also never hit the temperature as high as suggested, 210C max which should be waaay enough.180C does it for me these days when i normally straighten my hair to style it and no more than two passes per strand.
I wouldn't care so much for the treatment to take in the first place but preserving the integrity of the hair. With alot of texture hair will gradually become straighter over time.
Don't expect this to turn you into a 1a after a single treatment when hair was curly before. Thats probably the reason why so many people end up with damage. Stylists trying to force more than just a smoothing effect out of the products.

Upside Down
September 4th, 2015, 03:06 PM
No no, I don't expect 1a... Ideally I would like to preserve some wave after future applications too.

And yes, I agree on the stylists and their perspective. That is why I want to do it at home.

Anywhoo thanks for the info. I think I will go with 180c and 4 passes max. Better go slow and maybe build up than to destroy my hair on the first go.

MINAKO
September 4th, 2015, 03:17 PM
Before the ironing there is a certain dullness/grippyness to the hair due to the product dried up. When that goes way and the strands become feathery it usually means its enough passes. Any additional baking would sure cause more straightness because of heat damage, but thats not what we're after.
Good luck. Let us know how it turned out.

HintOfMint
October 7th, 2015, 02:44 AM
Apologies for the delay! I wanted to wait it out to see how long the effects actually lasted and whether there would be some tweaking along the way.

Unrelated to the treatment, I cut my hair to a little above BSL in the back. Think Kate Middleton. Normally the shorter length and having fewer and more subtle layers would make my hair grow out instead of down, but I think the keratin treatment actually worked! But it was a more complicated process getting there. Brace yourself, I'm making this account very detailed so hopefully it provides more useful information, but I promise, this is deeply boring.

The first time I did the treatment it was on tailbone length hair that was a bit dry and damaged in the last couple inches. I followed the instructions to the letter, which involved (with this particular formula) washing hair soon after frying in the formula. I bought a bottle of CHI Keratin shampoo and was using it on my hair after the treatment, along with my regular conditioner, assuming that treated hair only needed sulfate-free shampoo.

My hair was like silk afterwards, almost as if my hair type was actually finer. Most of the volume was knocked out, but it was still reasonably wavy, not a huge reduction. It seemed to hold bun waves better.

Of course, I wasn't sure if it was because of the new shampoo or because of the treatment, or a little column A, little column B. I was also unsure as to whether I should regularly use a sulfate-free shampoo on my scalp (my scalp works very well with sulfates, iffy on sulfate-free formulas). A shampoo or two later, I used some Suave on my scalp, while washing the rest with the CHI stuff, and some of the frizz returned. Of course, this may have been a screwup on my part, with the sulfates stripping some of the keratin from my hair. GAARRRGHGHH.

This was about two weeks in. Hair was still silky, but it's possible that some of the coarseness was returning. I remembered reading reviews on the product saying that the effects are cumulative. I also read that keratin treated hair should also have a low-salt formulated sulfate-free shampoo and the CHI stuff seemed to have quite a bit of the salts that supposedly loosen the keratin from one's hair. So I got the idea that I could use the remainder of the bottle (I used about two-thirds of it on my hair the first time) for a second treatment after my haircut and pick up a more appropriately formulated shampoo AND conditioner.

Haircut went beautifully (it's a post for another day, I'm so frickin' stoked), and I planned on doing the second keratin treatment on my next wash day. I decided to wash with the CHI shampoo, despite my salt concerns, as it was much less clarifying than the instruction's choice for shampoo, and I didn't want to risk stripping more from my hair. I didn't blow dry it this time, I let it airdry mostly. My hair was still softer than it was pre-treatment, and that's even without conditioner, so I was hopeful. Thank god I have shorter hair now, the remainder of the bottle was just enough for this second round. I spread the treatment through my hair, kind of how I spread conditioner through. I wasn't too precious about methodically sectioning out my hair for the application this time. I could tell by touch how it was fully saturated. A side note, this process is much easier the second time around. You get more comfortable with the materials. This time (based on some ridiculously thorough Amazon review, because why the hell not), I left the product in for a few hours while I watched Archer. After a reasonable soak, I busted out the flat iron. I was methodical here. I sectioned off my hair, making 7-10 passes on 1" sections of hair with my flat iron at 410 degrees F. The instructions called for an even higher flat iron temperature, but my flat iron doesn't go that high. Maybe next time I'll try with a lower temperature and fewer passes, but with coarse, thick, unprocessed (except for the first time) hair, I figured I would give it hell.

Here is the third and (in my opinion) key place where I departed from the first round where I followed the instructions to the letter. Most keratin treatments ask you to not wash your hair for a couple of days after the process. However, this formula is kind of sticky/heavy, and somewhat remains that way after straightening, and the instructions have you wash it immediately after the treatment. I decided to delay washing for a few days, like I would with a regular treatment. I was going out of town soon and one of my hosts also does keratin treatments (at a salon) so I knew she would have the appropriate sulfate-free and low salt shampoo and conditioner (which she did! score!). I arrived the day before wash day, and I used her shampoo and conditioner. I let it airdry with a tiny amount of Organix flat iron spray.

Moment of truth.

The immediate result was somewhat less silky hair, and a touch more volume (first results may have been due to the CHI shampoo), but a much greater reduction in wave. It was still wavy, but it was a solid 2A, and it settled into a 1C/2A the next day. When I went home after the weekend, I bought the same shampoo and conditioner my host had (L'Oreal Everpure line). That was about two weeks ago, and the effects are still going strong.

Today the results are good volume and body, but still smooth 1C/2A waves. Damp buns help make waves more uniform, but thanks to the treatment, they actually stay that way. My hair doesn't have that poof from when you brush natural wavy hair. It behaves like straight hair with body. My ends lie evenly. It looks like a blowout that's been slept in a bit. Very little frizz. The most amazing part: my hair doesn't tangle anymore. At all.

It's early yet, but I haven't seen damage from the flat iron yet. But in light of my recent haircut (I took off about a foot of hair) and considering how I don't use heat otherwise, and I'm not subjecting it to mechanical damage from detangling, I'm not too worried.

All in all, I'm incredibly happy with my hair. All it needs is a touch of oil as a leave-in, and my hair looks "done." And that's really all I wanted, hair that looks "done" without the...urgh... tedious doing part.

I'll check and update when I plan on doing the treatment again. The formula I used advertises that it lasts 2-3 months, but even if it lasts on the low end of that estimate, I would be happy. It's $40 a bottle and since my hair is shorter, it only requires a third of the bottle.

I'll have my roommate take pictures soon enough!

arelrios
October 7th, 2015, 09:44 AM
Great review HintofMint!!! And please show us the final results :)... Congrats in achieving what you wanted...

MINAKO
October 19th, 2015, 04:47 PM
Quick update. I'm sorry i don't really have time to keep track of all the threads these days. Miss to spend excessive amounts of time on here. I just wanted to bump cause i'm in for my 3rd kerasilk treatment.
This stuff is lasting forever tho, my hair barely reverted in more than 5 months again. The smoothness/non frizziness as well as the straighter texture is still there. No problems with split ends, breakage or tangles either. But of course my newgrowth is quite a bit now so my babyhairs are more unruly.
As impressed as i was with the product the first two times, i expect alot for this round, because the effect builds up and also i changed my routine. Actually im down to washing every 2 weeks, following NWSO in between. Sort of works, at some point hair is greasy of course but brushing finally seems to work for me.
I did stick to not measuring my hair, so i can't really tell how much it has grown. I had a few microtrims and my hemline looks alright.
I will post before and after shots again in a few days.

Happy growing everyone (and happy keratin frying for some of uslol) :D

meteor
October 19th, 2015, 05:44 PM
Quick update. I'm sorry i don't really have time to keep track of all the threads these days. Miss to spend excessive amounts of time on here. I just wanted to bump cause i'm in for my 3rd kerasilk treatment.
This stuff is lasting forever tho, my hair barely reverted in more than 5 months again. The smoothness/non frizziness as well as the straighter texture is still there. No problems with split ends, breakage or tangles either. But of course my newgrowth is quite a bit now so my babyhairs are more unruly.
As impressed as i was with the product the first two times, i expect alot for this round, because the effect builds up and also i changed my routine. Actually im down to washing every 2 weeks, following NWSO in between. Sort of works, at some point hair is greasy of course but brushing finally seems to work for me.
I did stick to not measuring my hair, so i can't really tell how much it has grown. I had a few microtrims and my hemline looks alright.
I will post before and after shots again in a few days.

Happy growing everyone (and happy keratin frying for some of uslol) :D

So great to see you back, MINAKO! :joy:

I'm curious: do you brush hair every day for NW/SO to work for 2 weeks in-between washes? :) Any special brushes? And are there any other things you do in your routine to be able to extend the time between washes so successfully? Thanks a lot! :flower:
(I'd love to be able to stretch washes more, because they are becoming exceedingly difficult and messy for me at new lengths...)

Suzysu
October 19th, 2015, 06:42 PM
Keratin treatments frequently end in damaged hair and hair loss. Take it from someone who has tried it, twice, and is losing hair every day.

I have now lost over 50% of my hair.

Minako has beautiful hair - if your hair is as strong and thick it hers is, naturally, then it would take a lot of keratin treatments (a lot of ANYTHING) to damage your hair.

But consider her natural hair! Most people's hair does not look like this! Most people's hair is not as strong or as thick.

A lot has been said about the difference between formaldehyde free keratin treatments and the original Brazilian Blowouts.

For whatever reason, the scary results (hair loss and balding - or if you're lucky, just damaged hair) are the same. Often the hair loss does not start until a few treatments are had, and a month or so after the last killer treatment.

I cannot turn back time. I am losing my hair. Maybe it was more than the Brazilian, but the doctor has found nothing else yet. If I can make ONE person stay away from the keratin treatment then I can make something positive out of it.

90% of my hair was virgin - never blow dried, never straightened, nothing! (The other 10% had highlights -but actually that hasn't been affected more or less than my virgin hair, weirdly).

I truly thought - it won't happen to me.... I'm going to a salon famous for BB's, a reputable salon! And if Brazilians were so bad they wouldn't still be doing them!

Here are real life horror stories - of which I am now one:

http://www.short-hair-style.com/reaction-to-keratin-hair-treatment.html

MINAKO
October 19th, 2015, 09:45 PM
So great to see you back, MINAKO! :joy:

I'm curious: do you brush hair every day for NW/SO to work for 2 weeks in-between washes? :) Any special brushes? And are there any other things you do in your routine to be able to extend the time between washes so successfully? Thanks a lot! :flower:
(I'd love to be able to stretch washes more, because they are becoming exceedingly difficult and messy for me at new lengths...)

I sort of never even tried to brush my hair aside from cleaning my scalp in the shower for a long time. Just used combs and avoided brushes like the plague. Dry brushing would just lead to poufyness and out of control buns, so i thought. But i used my SHS brush and even started to flip my hair over, so i can remove almost every single shed hair that might hide somewhere. Afterwards i just noticed that my hair looks alot fresher and also feels softer.
I'm not brushing every day, just more frequently towards the end of the first week and throughout the second week.
Still on the fence about the hygiene issue but i dont live in a terribly polluted city at the moment, so i figure its alright.
The reason why this works now is essentially straighter hair. I admit that my texture is still not even cause its wavier near the roots and will probably always be, but thats alright and can be manipulated with damp buns or other heatless setting methods.
I dont think inwould ever be able to lay off my routine and fully commit to NWSO, but this mix does well for me.

Suzy, the thing about keratin treatments that destroys hair is in most cases a too intense heat setting or too many passes with the iron, not so much the product itself. I think the formaldehyde question became mostly irrelevant as these products are banned by now. My hair is very dense, but by far not the strongest or thickest. Keratin itself is for a fact a strengthening protein, so it can't be the culprit for peoples hairloss. Either its the technique or aftercare that would have to be adjusted to make these treatments successful. I've done this alot more than 2 times and neither find split ends, breakage or increased shedding yet, actually the opposite of all these.

Suzysu
October 20th, 2015, 04:39 AM
Suzy, the thing about keratin treatments that destroys hair is in most cases a too intense heat setting or too many passes with the iron, not so much the product itself. I think the formaldehyde question became mostly irrelevant as these products are banned by now. My hair is very dense, but by far not the strongest or thickest. Keratin itself is for a fact a strengthening protein, so it can't be the culprit for peoples hairloss. Either its the technique or aftercare that would have to be adjusted to make these treatments successful. I've done this alot more than 2 times and neither find split ends, breakage or increased shedding yet, actually the opposite of all these.

The danger is that you think because your hair is fine, the treatment must be fine.

Correlation does not imply causation.

Your hair may have been perfectly fine with high heat tongs. You've made the (understandable) assumption that because you used a low heat, this explains why your hair is still on your head.

Looking at your photos your hair is clearly very strong, by nature. I didn't claim it's "the strongest" as I don't really know what that means. But....I've not met anyone in my life with hair that long and thick, so unless I am living in a different planet, it is unusually strong, by anyone's standards.

I can say this because your hair has managed to become extremely (unusually) long while retaining huge volume / thickness. There is no tapering off at the ends. And it was like that prior to keratin - not because of keratin.

Most people, including people with virgin hair, do not have hair that grows this long and thick. That's a fact.

Don't you think this makes you problematic as an example of how keratin doesn't damage hair?

You are not an ideal test subject since you already won the hair lottery!! (I appreciate that you may have had frizz issues, but just saying that you do have very long, very thick hair, which is a good base....for any treatment.)

I don't disagree that keratin is not innately bad - although if you get to much of it your hair becomes like glass - snap! But the point is that no keratin treatment is just....keratin. There are a load of other harsh ingredients - possibly one of them, not keratin, is causing the damage.

Anyone who doesn't believe me should just start googling.

Technique may have some role to play. It limits the amount of damage your hair gets.

But it doesn't help your scalp.

Your scalp is more important to you than your hair.

Damage it and the damage can last forever - whereas you can always grow new hair.

Technique isn't the main reason the hair falls out. It's maybe the main reason it gets damaged looking.

But on the dyed bits of my hair (about 10% of it) the salon only went up to 200 on the flat irons....because I chose a reputable salon....that didn't want to kill my hair. I also don't remember them doing more than 2-3 passes on each piece of hair.

What does it mean? Well, it means that, like you, I don't have major split ends. I don't have a lot of damage - more than you though, as my hair isn't as strong as yours. But I wish I did - because it would be preferably to my hair falling out entirely, from the root, which is what it is doing.

And since I don't dare blow dry it just looks like my usual hair - non-sleek and frizzy...

It is the chemicals, not the flat ironing that have left my scalp permanently itchy.

I didn't get burned by tongs! But having that chemical on my hair was too much for my scalp to take.

(Anyone, who, at this point, claims that the product shouldn't get on the scalp is forgetting that by washing your hair with a sulphate-free salt free shampoo, you keep the product on your hair for a loooong time, and it does not know not to touch the scalp..)

My concern is, Minako, that people will read your posts and they will believe that your results are typical. Yet that is not the case.

Because your hair is in good condition, you have made an educated guess that it is technique and not chemicals - but I have first hand experience of exactly the opposite.

Who is to say that other people - like all of these (http://www.short-hair-style.com/reaction-to-keratin-hair-treatment.html) - won't also have my experience? Can you honestly say that? And if not, isn't it wise to not promote keratin treatments?

I know you are acting in good faith - you believe you're right. But what if you're not?

People will swoop in to support your point of view - because they really, really want you to be right. I'd have been exactly the same. And I'd have been....wrong.

And I completely understand why people are listening to one solitary positive experience instead of googling thousands of bad experiences.

Having frizz-free, glossy, shiny, swingy hair for the first time in my life, albeit only for a couple of weeks, was one of the best experiences of my life.

Losing it all though is one of the worst.

I urge anybody who has had a bad keratin experience to share it here to balance out the fact that you've managed to find one person who didn't!

One swallow does not make a summer.

MINAKO
October 20th, 2015, 09:19 AM
Suzy, i apologize if i did appear as ifi did not take your negative expirience serious, i really appreciate your further input on this and it made me think. Although i we figured out that hairloss from the root can impossibly be caused by keratin as a substance itself and formaldehyde has been widely banned, there are other substances to replace it that might not be safe as well. Or even salons who import products themselves so any kind of control becomes difficult.
I live in germany and my acess to a selection of these products is different and probably very limited compared to the USA, but restrictions are much harder here. So maybe i was just lucky to not be able to purchase one of the products that causes hairloss. Also i did my research by ingredients list and for Goldwell Kerasilk the active component is Glycoxylic Acid, which might still not be comparable to anything "natural" but seems to be much safer and gentler than anything else.
I also had a product that did not have any ingredient to make the keratin penetrate deep into the hair at all. It was alright but needless to say it didn't last long.
I'm not here to convince people to go out and just have it done simply by the advice that i give, but anyone with hair similar to mine can estimate a situation from my expirience too.
My hair is not superior to the majority of members hair on here, maybe slightly above average regarding density and lenght takes time. But the length that i have right now is possible for most people to get to, if they stick with the growing process long enough.
By the stringest hair i mean like C iii+ii hair that is basically indestructable and takes heat and mechanical abuse fairly easy. My hair is dry and kinda fragile, tended to break alot in the past.
I suggest that rather than seeing either the up or downside of these treatments alone, we should find out exactly which ingredients should be avoided and which products are safe to use in general.
It might be very much like PPD in black hair dye, which doesn't mean there's no way to get that color without the use of PPD or any other chemical name for it.

Suzysu
October 20th, 2015, 10:57 AM
Suzy, i apologize if i did appear as ifi did not take your negative expirience serious, i really appreciate your further input on this and it made me think. Although i we figured out that hairloss from the root can impossibly be caused by keratin as a substance itself and formaldehyde has been widely banned, there are other substances to replace it that might not be safe as well. Or even salons who import products themselves so any kind of control becomes difficult.
I live in germany and my acess to a selection of these products is different and probably very limited compared to the USA, but restrictions are much harder here. So maybe i was just lucky to not be able to purchase one of the products that causes hairloss. Also i did my research by ingredients list and for Goldwell Kerasilk the active component is Glycoxylic Acid, which might still not be comparable to anything "natural" but seems to be much safer and gentler than anything else.
I also had a product that did not have any ingredient to make the keratin penetrate deep into the hair at all. It was alright but needless to say it didn't last long.
I'm not here to convince people to go out and just have it done simply by the advice that i give, but anyone with hair similar to mine can estimate a situation from my expirience too.
My hair is not superior to the majority of members hair on here, maybe slightly above average regarding density and lenght takes time. But the length that i have right now is possible for most people to get to, if they stick with the growing process long enough.
By the stringest hair i mean like C iii+ii hair that is basically indestructable and takes heat and mechanical abuse fairly easy. My hair is dry and kinda fragile, tended to break alot in the past.
I suggest that rather than seeing either the up or downside of these treatments alone, we should find out exactly which ingredients should be avoided and which products are safe to use in general.
It might be very much like PPD in black hair dye, which doesn't mean there's no way to get that color without the use of PPD or any other chemical name for it.

Thanks for your understanding reply, Minako. And I didn't realise you were from Germany - it might well be that they are more stringent over there with the ingredients in their keratin treatments than they are in the UK.

We agree that it is not so much the keratin (although you can have too much of a good thing) but the fact that these manufacturers have to find products of equal strength to formaldehyde to replace them with! And unlike formaldehyde, we don't even know how dangerous they may be.

Alternatively, as you've already discovered, there are gentler products....that don't achieve the same results.

I am intrigued that you've found a product that uses Glycolic Acid as a main ingredient. Glycolic acid has been used on the skin (as a beauty treatment) for decades - and, at an appropriate strength, there are no issues with that.

I would be surprised if something that can work so well for the skin would be a problem for the hair. Very interesting.

However, I still think this point you make is the key one: Anyone with similar hair to yours can reasonably expect the same result. (As long as they're also following the same process as you.)

It's still a risk but a calculated one that might well be worth taking.

In terms of your hair - well, I've been looking at photos of all the gorgeous hair everyone's grown, and although you are right in saying many have the same length - and lovely shiny hair at that - I haven't noticed the same level of density at the ends for your length of hair. Can I ask how often you trim your hair, and how much you take off each time?

What is undeniable is that whatever you are doing to your hair, it is certainly working very well for you.

Alex Lou
October 20th, 2015, 11:08 AM
n terms of your hair - well, I've been looking at photos of all the gorgeous hair everyone's grown, and although you are right in saying many have the same length - and lovely shiny hair at that - I haven't noticed the same level of density at the ends for your length of hair. Can I ask how often you trim your hair, and how much you take off each time?

I actually think her ends look typical for iii thickness hair. If you don't abuse it, it just grows that way usually. :shrug:

Suzysu
October 20th, 2015, 11:25 AM
I actually think her ends look typical for iii thickness hair. If you don't abuse it, it just grows that way usually. :shrug:

Then I wish I had iii hair! And then some..!

meteor
October 20th, 2015, 11:57 AM
I sort of never even tried to brush my hair aside from cleaning my scalp in the shower for a long time. Just used combs and avoided brushes like the plague. Dry brushing would just lead to poufyness and out of control buns, so i thought. But i used my SHS brush and even started to flip my hair over, so i can remove almost every single shed hair that might hide somewhere. Afterwards i just noticed that my hair looks alot fresher and also feels softer.
I'm not brushing every day, just more frequently towards the end of the first week and throughout the second week.
Still on the fence about the hygiene issue but i dont live in a terribly polluted city at the moment, so i figure its alright.
The reason why this works now is essentially straighter hair. I admit that my texture is still not even cause its wavier near the roots and will probably always be, but thats alright and can be manipulated with damp buns or other heatless setting methods.
I dont think inwould ever be able to lay off my routine and fully commit to NWSO, but this mix does well for me.

Thanks a lot, MINAKO! :flowers:
I'll need to experiment with this, too, because I'm getting overwhelmed with long wash days. :) What helps me at the moment is scalp-only washes in between full washes, but brushing should work a bit like "dry-cleaning" hair, too. :)


Suzysu, keratin straightening solutions can give reactions to scalp, so it's important to avoid contact with skin, especially if the skin is sensitive. I'm terribly sorry that you got a reaction (maybe it's even a chemical burn?) from it. :( If it caused unusual reaction or excessive breakage immediately, I'd go back to the salon and complain. The procedure is something like a much milder and less permanent version of a relaxer, different from relaxers in that it is semi-permanent and uses different chemicals. Sodium hydroxide or ammonium thioglycolate in relaxers break bonds, while formaldehyde (methylene glycol), oxoacetamide/oxoacetic acid/glyoxylic acid (e.g. in Goldwell Kerasilk mentioned up-thread), cysteine/ethanolamine/cysteamine hydrochloride cross-link, reform some free bonds (and reducing a few bonds as well) - not all bonds are affected and the reformed bonds can break again, so it's semi-permanent. But I think, just because something is "meant" to be semi-permanent, doesn't mean that your hair will necessarily revert to its original state - we know this from semi-permanent dyes, too. It depends on condition (virgin vs. damaged), the texture (how curly the hair is naturally) and coarseness (thickness of individual strands) of hair, the specifics of the treatment (concentration, length of application, frequency etc) and probably other factors (washing products & frequency, humidity, etc).

There is more info on the effect of BKT kinds of treatments on hair in this study that might be of help:
Formaldehyde replacement with glyoxylic acid in semipermanent hair straightening: a new and multidisciplinary investigation - by Boga C, Taddei P, et al. - Int J Cosmet Sci. 2014 - http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/24962464/Formaldehyde-replacement-with-glyoxylic-acid-in-semipermanent-hair-straightening:-a-new-and-multidis

MINAKO
October 20th, 2015, 12:02 PM
Suzy, i lived in the UK recently and the range of products available there is much wider than in germany too, that's correct.
I never looked into keratin treatments there as i was sure to have found my holy grail products, all coming from Goldwell, which is not only approved by german controls but a german company itself. I think aside from this one all other products available here work either in the very temporary way or involve some sort of thioglycolate much like a relaxer or perm.
I had a slight spelling mistake, but its actually not the same chemical in the Kerasilk as glycolic acid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyoxylic_acid
Its probably still too powerful to use on a daily basis in anything but i consider it much safer than formaldehyde.
I always say that if i didn't have an option to straighten i wouldn't have long hair at all, at least not longer than midback, cause long and super voluminous waves just look wrong on my skinny insect body frame.

My thickness ranges from 12.3-12.8cm at the base, so its well above iii, but hairtexture itself is mixed and has alot of fine hair in it. The last time i chopped was in 2013, i had cut it to around waist and an extremely blunt hemline. sice then i micromtrim only. i take off 0.5-1cm every 2-3 months depending on how my ends feel. i usually don't get split ends but if i go without a trim for like 5 months i would find very few of them here and there.

The main reason why my ends look like they do is probably because i wear my hair up 95% of the time. Thats something i should state again, cause if i left it down more often i would probably have more taper due to mechanical damage.

MINAKO
October 20th, 2015, 12:14 PM
Meteor, i was typing as you posted, lol. Excellent facts that you mentioned there.

As for the brushing, i think any soft bristle brush would do for me. Im still not comfortable with BBBs but there are so many options of tools with alot of fine bristles aside from that. as long as they are perfectly smooth and there no problem with hair becoming static. I know allt of people don't like nylon bristles, but forme it works and i think they are even gentler if well manufactured. I comb out every last tangle and then brush it for like 3 minutes concentrating on the scalp. as hair gets oilier it also gets dustier, so removing the lint removes alot of oil too. not enought to be able to wear it down, but in a bun it looks alright, haha.

meteor
October 20th, 2015, 12:28 PM
The main reason why my ends look like they do is probably because i wear my hair up 95% of the time. Thats something i should state again, cause if i left it down more often i would probably have more taper due to mechanical damage.

:agree: This factor is so huge and hard to overestimate! It really makes a massive difference - almost any hair (virgin or damaged, coarse or fine, etc) can look its absolute best when it's carefully protected in a low-manipulation style and not "over-worked" with all the abrasion that happens from over-handling, over-styling, over-washing or being caught on things. I think dense hair needs that kind of protection even more (if anything, to avoid tangles!).


Meteor, i was typing as you posted, lol. Excellent facts that you mentioned there.

As for the brushing, i think any soft bristle brush would do for me. Im still not comfortable with BBBs but there are so many options of tools with alot of fine bristles aside from that. as long as they are perfectly smooth and there no problem with hair becoming static. I know allt of people don't like nylon bristles, but forme it works and i think they are even gentler if well manufactured. I comb out every last tangle and then brush it for like 3 minutes concentrating on the scalp. as hair gets oilier it also gets dustier, so removing the lint removes alot of oil too. not enought to be able to wear it down, but in a bun it looks alright, haha.

Thanks a lot! :D That's awesome stuff! Also keeping hair up definitely keeps it way cleaner (hidden away from lint, dust, smoke...). :agree: I really like the idea of not brushing hair when it's freshly washed and "stripped" of oils but building up the brushing closer to the wash day as there is more sebum that coats hair.
I remember Madora also uses regular brushing as a cleaning tool between her once monthly washes. This approach is making more sense at great lengths, for sure. :agree:

Upside Down
October 24th, 2015, 06:38 AM
I just want to chime in because I read the newer replies and kinda feel it's a bit unfair to assume people would just do keratine because of MINAKO's experience.

That would be unrealistic.

I read a lot of horror stories and stopped because I might end up imagining hairloss.

To add to the thread, two of my friends use/used keratine. One has blond hair (bottle) at around shoulder. She doesn't know which brand they used at the salon but her hair felt like rubber and her color went darker. She never did it again.

The other uses kerasilk at the salon and she has a hairtype similar to mine, average thickness and pretty fine and she has nice results. She keeps it at around waist so no super lenghts, and her hair is brown - no change in color.

Neither of them experienced hairloss.

I do trust kerasilk to be a good quality product. Hope after this weekend I will have my own story to add :)

BroomHilda
October 24th, 2015, 07:08 AM
it's not JUST the actual thickness you measure. In order to have long AND thick hair you need to have hairs all over you head with very long life cycle. Otherwise you end with wispy hair because, normally, not all of your hair strands has the same life span.
Minako has indeed won the hair lottery. She has also mentioned that she looses a very small amount of hair on daily basis. I wouldnt be surprised if she could grow hair past-thigh length with or without keratin.
Even if she bleached her hair she would propably have very long AND thick hair.





In respect to keratin or any other chemical treatmet, hair falling out from the SCALP is a sign of allergic reaction to something. But this could happen to the most common color treatments if you are unlucky enough.
In my opinion BKTs do result in some damage but you can never know for sure how much.
Minako shouldn't be an example of whether keratins cause or dont cause heat or chemical damage. This is true.

Suzysu
October 24th, 2015, 07:16 AM
I just want to chime in because I read the newer replies and kinda feel it's a bit unfair to assume people would just do keratine because of MINAKO's experience.

That would be unrealistic.

I read a lot of horror stories and stopped because I might end up imagining hairloss.

To add to the thread, two of my friends use/used keratine. One has blond hair (bottle) at around shoulder. She doesn't know which brand they used at the salon but her hair felt like rubber and her color went darker. She never did it again.

The other uses kerasilk at the salon and she has a hairtype similar to mine, average thickness and pretty fine and she has nice results. She keeps it at around waist so no super lenghts, and her hair is brown - no change in color.

Neither of them experienced hairloss.

I do trust kerasilk to be a good quality product. Hope after this weekend I will have my own story to add :)

Because I have lost over 50% of my hair due to Brazilians it would be really unfair to not post about it here, where there are pages and pages of people talking about one person (Minako's) positive experience.

Important to balance that out.

Yes, many on this site, and many others, have had horrible effects from a variety of Keratin treatments also, but say if you're a newbie and you picked up the thread where it was, you might well think - well, keratin treatments seem to be alright!

Also, as Minako has since, very decently, clarified, she is only talking about the results on her type of hair. And, specifically, using Kerasilk.

I'd much rather risk offending someone (and Minako took it very well, actually - she got my perspective) and save many, many thousands of people (who view these threads silently) from losing over 50% of their hair.

You've had one friend have a bad experience, and one friend have a good experience. That's 50/50 odds which most wouldn't want to risk. Particularly those on a long hair community thread, who really prize their hair.

Now, that wasn't at all scientific, as we are just talking about your experience, so let me put it another way:

I have been reading pretty much every article and comment on Keratin treatments that I can find. There are a LOT. And do you know what? People who have repeated keratin treatments without significant damage to their hair are in the minority.

I don't like those odds. The worst thing is - the first treatment often goes well - so it gives this illusion of safeness.

The dermatologist I went to see had seen many, many keratin treated people before me.

I've never used Kerasilk. It may well be one of the better ones but I would only risk it on someone who has hair like Minako's.

And, just to be clear how damaging keratin treatments can be:

90% of my hair was virgin hair.
Never straightened (by chemical, or hair dryer, or tong) in its entire life!
I went to a reputable salon - widely considered THE best in the UK for keratin treatments!!

It is not the keratin - it is whatever harsh chemicals are used to replace the formaldehyde.

If it could happen to me, it could happen to anyone. And it is more likely to go wrong, than right.

I will vigorously put my point across every time keratin treatments are mentioned anywhere on the internet.

I will do everything I can to help prevent others from having my experience.

To spend 15 years growing your hair, and to then have to start right from the beginning because of a keratin treatment, well - I wouldn't wish on anybody.

I should add that I had the keratin treatment so that my curly hair, which appears above shoulder length, could FINALLY be enjoyed for its true length - arm pit length.

Now I must start again.

If people want to go ahead, then I want them to know what they risk, so they can make an informed decision.

I think that's very fair.

Suzysu
October 24th, 2015, 07:44 AM
it's not JUST the actual thickness you measure. In order to have long AND thick hair you need to have hairs all over you head with very long life cycle. Otherwise you end with wispy hair because, normally, not all of your hair strands has the same life span.
Minako has indeed won the hair lottery. She has also mentioned that she looses a very small amount of hair on daily basis. I wouldnt be surprised if she could grow hair past-thigh length with or without keratin.
Even if she bleached her hair she would propably have very long AND thick hair.

In respect to keratin or any other chemical treatmet, hair falling out from the SCALP is a sign of allergic reaction to something. But this could happen to the most common color treatments if you are unlucky enough.
In my opinion BKTs do result in some damage but you can never know for sure how much.
Minako shouldn't be an example of whether keratins cause or dont cause heat or chemical damage. This is true.


Yes, Minako is very lucky to have such naturally thick long hair. Although I hesitate to say "lucky" because I understand that she does take good care of hair. Still, what a great starting point to have, hey!!

But yes, I've looked on the long hair community and though there are loads of people with hair as long, it's hard to find people who have that amount of thickness right through to the ends at that length.

Your point that I might have had an allergic reaction because my hair fell out from the scalp - and that it could happen with most colour treatments, I would counter, strongly.

I do not have sensitive skin.

I am a person who can use sulphates - and peroxide 10% of my hair for 15 years without issue.

I also had no bad reaction to the first keratin treatment...

So, I definitely wouldn't think of it on the level with a colour treatment. I mean sure, a colour treatment COULD make you lose hair from the roots, but it is not even close to being the norm. As you say, you would have to be very unlucky.

You don't have to be very unlucky for it to happen to you from a Keratin treatment though!

It's pretty common.

I've never had an allergic reaction to anything in my life.

Yet, with keratin treatments it is clearly documented....everywhere really....that it is something that happens often, although not always.

Damage to the hair? Almost always.

missblueeyes
October 24th, 2015, 08:51 AM
I know that everyone on here who thinks about a keratin treatment knows what they're getting themselves into, which is why they asked Minako for help. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, Suzysu, and I get that you want to share it with the world but I think it's not fair to talk something that has worked for many people when done right down so much. Besides, a Brazillian blowout is not the same thing as the keratin treatment we're talking about in this thread. What do you mean exactly? A Brazillian Blowout or a Keratin Treatment?
Everyone knows that there's a risk when you CHEMICALLY STRAIGHTEN your hair because it WILL damage your hair. Always. No exceptions. But, you know what? It doesn't matter if you go to the best salon in the world if they use methods that aren't safe. Minako is the only person I know who uses keratin regularly and can grow to long lengths, but do you know why? Because she doesn't get it done at a salon where they do too many passes with very high heat but because she does it at home and because she wears her hair up to protect it from mechanical damage, which is something only very little people do. Her hair condition is not determined by luck but by how well she cares for it.

Keratin doesn't make your hair fall out, it's literally just a protein. Some substance in the product that they used makes your hair fall out, which means it didn't damage the hair but your scalp.

@Suzysu: Did they do a allery test at the hair salon before applying the product? If you went to the same salon twice and only noticed problems after the second time, they probably changed the product to something your scalp can't take. It doesn't matter if you can take bleach, sls or any other substance, if you can't take the treatment it will make you lose hair. I think the salon, as good as a reputation it might have, is very irresponsible for not testing for allergies first.

I just think it's really unfair to talk down a technique that is known to be damaging like that just because you didn't test for allergies first. If you don't have any splits, your scalp is the problem and thus the product. That could happen with any other shampoo and conditioner, too, and is not to blame on the keratin in the treatment.

Suzysu
October 24th, 2015, 09:48 AM
I know that everyone on here who thinks about a keratin treatment knows what they're getting themselves into, which is why they asked Minako for help. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience, Suzysu, and I get that you want to share it with the world but I think it's not fair to talk something that has worked for many people when done right down so much. Besides, a Brazillian blowout is not the same thing as the keratin treatment we're talking about in this thread. What do you mean exactly? A Brazillian Blowout or a Keratin Treatment?
Everyone knows that there's a risk when you CHEMICALLY STRAIGHTEN your hair because it WILL damage your hair. Always. No exceptions. But, you know what? It doesn't matter if you go to the best salon in the world if they use methods that aren't safe. Minako is the only person I know who uses keratin regularly and can grow to long lengths, but do you know why? Because she doesn't get it done at a salon where they do too many passes with very high heat but because she does it at home and because she wears her hair up to protect it from mechanical damage, which is something only very little people do. Her hair condition is not determined by luck but by how well she cares for it.

Keratin doesn't make your hair fall out, it's literally just a protein. Some substance in the product that they used makes your hair fall out, which means it didn't damage the hair but your scalp.

@Suzysu: Did they do a allery test at the hair salon before applying the product? If you went to the same salon twice and only noticed problems after the second time, they probably changed the product to something your scalp can't take. It doesn't matter if you can take bleach, sls or any other substance, if you can't take the treatment it will make you lose hair. I think the salon, as good as a reputation it might have, is very irresponsible for not testing for allergies first.

I just think it's really unfair to talk down a technique that is known to be damaging like that just because you didn't test for allergies first. If you don't have any splits, your scalp is the problem and thus the product. That could happen with any other shampoo and conditioner, too, and is not to blame on the keratin in the treatment.

Your questions are because you maybe missed the previous posts. I understand it, there are so many of them. But we established that it is not the keratin in the treatment - but the necessarily harsh chemical that is used to replace the formaldehyde.

If you think a chemical equal to formaldehyde isn't extremely strong and damaging - beyond your typical dye job, then I do think that's wrong, I'm afraid.

In fact, many consider calling them "keratin treatments" really dishonest - it is not the keratin that is the key ingredient!!

You think I shouldn't blame the treatment as it must have been an allergic reaction.

Well, as I've said - I don't have sensitive skin. I've got through my entire life without an allergic reaction. But since this is not convincing - my dermatologist didn't think it was an allergic reaction....

I accept that you think differently though, but I have to go with my derm on this one.

I also don't think the reason why people are having such bad reactions to subsequent treatments is because sneaky stylists are switching the formula on them. If a formula works well, why would stylists decide to switch it for another?

I don't go with conspiracy theories - it's happening all over the place, not just my salon.

You say that it isn't fair to say Minako's hair is down to luck as she looks after it. Yes, that's precisely what I said in my previous post - that she looks after it, so "I hesitate to say she's lucky - but she had a good starting point!"

You say that even if you go to the best salon in the world it is no good if they use a poor technique. Well, first off, I would say - that good technique is what defines the best salons. It is, at least, what I look for. I spent 3 months researching salons.

Second of all, as explained previously - they didn't do more than 2-3 passes AND only went up to 200 on my dyed hair.

Pretty good technique if you ask me. Much gentler than other salons.

(I will also add that only 10% of my hair is dyed, the rest is virgin - both types fell out regardless. Although people claim that keratin treatments are GOOD for dyed or damaged hair...)

Finally, you say it would be unfair for me to talk down a product that works on some people.

I'm okay with offending a product. I'm far more worried about being unfair to people by not highlighting the huge, and well documented, issues with keratin treatments (not keratin - keratin treatments) - as a counter point to another person's good experience.

These products are doing very well for themselves and need no sympathy - they cost hundreds to use, are a nice little earner for salons and are killing most people's hair, sooner - or later.

Do you know how many salons these days refuse to do keratin treatments?

I've talked to some of them. They think they are dangerous.

I understand your frustration. I, too, wish it were that I....

had damaged hair,
or I didn't do my research,
or I had some weird allergy,
or the stylist was bad,
or my dermatologist was wrong,
or the gods were angry

- because then I could may be have hope of long swishy hair in the future.

But while we can point the finger at anything other than the harmful contents of keratin treatments, it would be unrealistic to do so.

Like you, I was so, so, hoping that I could have long, swishy, smooth hair without killing my hair.

I wouldn't have wanted to believe anyone who thought otherwise. I thought - "I can cope with a bit of damage - it will grow out!"

After all, I'd spent 15 years protecting my hair - I thought it could take it.

I have to be really honest about how it was for me. You are telling me my experience wasn't what it was. I have to respond to that.

It's one thing saying that you think keratin will work for you - but quite another to say my experience wasn't what it was.

I was there. I'm the one who lost over 50% of her hair. I feel like I know what I'm talking about - however unwelcome.

Minako has been clear about how it was for her.

It's important to hear both sides.

I'm sorry if I sound frustrated. But if you go through a hellish experience, the last thing you want is for someone to discount it.

On account of being unfair to a product.

I hope you understand. :-)

kitcatsmeow
October 24th, 2015, 10:47 AM
So I'm curious: for those of us who don't want to accept any formaldehyde or heat damage, are there any products at all on the market that create dramatic smoothing effect (kind of like, silicone serum on steroids) without any heat?
Maybe any take-home products that people are supposed to use between keratin treatments in order to make its straightening effect last longer? :hmm:

Forgive me if this was already suggested, I didn't read the entire thread, but I love Aphogee 2 step keratin treatment. I do use a blow dryer with the process but that is MUCH less damaging than straightening (if any...I use med/low heat). It lasts about 2 weeks and I repeat every 3 weeks. I don't use the conditioner, instead I use my own deep treatment after the protein is rinsed. My hair always feels amazing. There is a paul mitchell treatment that is similar although I haven't tried it we used it in school. It's a pro treatment but I'm sure it can be found online.

Upside Down
October 24th, 2015, 12:11 PM
Suzysu, I didn't mean unfair to MINAKO. Although she has been nothing but helpful and for sure did not try to talk anyone into keratine. And I thank her for that, she has helped with her knowledge and experience. And so has meteor with research she presented. And many other me,bers that posted on here.

Anyhow. It is unfair to others, including me. I am doing this. Not based on MINAKO's experience! I don't expect to magicaly get her hair. That would be kind of like trusting a Pantene comercial :lol:

I would like to address this - hairloss is not the same as damage. Hairloss doesn't really corelate with hairtype, imo. Hairtype will determine how much damage your hair can take, but I think hairloss has a different etiology.

Also, damage is not murder :) I mean, your hair can take some damage, how much, that depends on the hairtype, and type of damage. To say that keratine is murdering most peoples hair sooner or later is imo just not true.

I also don't think that a newbie would read the last page of this thread and think keratine will give her MINAKOs hair. There are many informative posts on this topic and also different experiences. I'd give people more credit than that.

I am really really sorry that you had such a bad experience. I myself have just come out of a postpartum shed and know how bad shedding feels :( I hope it gets better for you soon.

Upside Down
October 24th, 2015, 02:34 PM
Aaand just to report ... I am doing it. It is sitting on my head! I am exciteeed. Now comes the harder part, blowdrying and ironing. In two minutes :D

Fingers crossed and I will let you know how it went, short term and long term, I promise.

MotherofJames
October 24th, 2015, 02:59 PM
I'm so happy you said this . I will I am going to do the "at home" keratin treatment without the heat !!!

Upside Down
October 24th, 2015, 03:47 PM
Well it took about 2,5h phew.

I kinda didn't know how to open the sealing agent bottle lol so I cut it. But in my defense my hair was dripping and I was upside down washing.... but still lol

Other than that it is very straightforward but yeah time consuming.

I am not crazy about the smell. It doesn't stink but it is strong... caramely ? kind of smell. How long till it dissapears out of hair?

How is it done without heat, MotherofJames?

Suzysu
October 24th, 2015, 05:22 PM
Suzysu, I didn't mean unfair to MINAKO. Although she has been nothing but helpful and for sure did not try to talk anyone into keratine. And I thank her for that, she has helped with her knowledge and experience. And so has meteor with research she presented. And many other me,bers that posted on here.

Anyhow. It is unfair to others, including me. I am doing this. Not based on MINAKO's experience! I don't expect to magicaly get her hair. That would be kind of like trusting a Pantene comercial :lol:

I would like to address this - hairloss is not the same as damage. Hairloss doesn't really corelate with hairtype, imo. Hairtype will determine how much damage your hair can take, but I think hairloss has a different etiology.

Also, damage is not murder :) I mean, your hair can take some damage, how much, that depends on the hairtype, and type of damage. To say that keratine is murdering most peoples hair sooner or later is imo just not true.

I also don't think that a newbie would read the last page of this thread and think keratine will give her MINAKOs hair. There are many informative posts on this topic and also different experiences. I'd give people more credit than that.

I am really really sorry that you had such a bad experience. I myself have just come out of a postpartum shed and know how bad shedding feels :( I hope it gets better for you soon.

Yes, as you say - it's very helpful when people post their positive experiences. But I also thank those who post about the down sides.

I've found that equally helpful. I am thankful for hearing both sides.

I shared my experience of keratin treatments - where I lost over 50% of my hair and now have a small bald patch - as a counterpoint to positive stories.

You are right -there are already a lot of horror stories online which are there for anyone who wants to find them. I definitely didn't mean to not give people credit for looking them up. Sorry if that came across.

Some of the people posting these stories are still shedding like crazy three or four years down the line. These people are still online - still posting desperately on comments boards asking people when the itching and hair loss will all stop.

I block it out, and tell myself it won't happen to me as there is new growth. I admit I don't know how even it will be, but what scares me is that none of them come back and say - my hair came back. It's so frustrating.

I know you say it doesn't "kill" the hair - but actually, those who escape with just damaged hair (as opposed to losing most of it) describe it as "dead hair" - it's hard to explain but I know what they mean as what's left of my hair does feel lifeless.

(Yes, I know - technically, hair is always dead!)

I know you haven't found my posts helpful, but perhaps they will be helpful to someone else.

Also, it's actually quite cathartic for people to share tough experiences. I've found it useful to do so. And I have received so much support from this community through such a difficult time.

I know you want more practical / upbeat info. Here goes:

Patch tests - You've mentioned how useful these are - however, a key point is that it tends to take a couple of weeks - sometimes over a month, for the itching and hair loss to begin. So, I guess a useful tip is that if you plan a keratin treatment, get your patch test about six weeks in advance.

If you have coarse hair and you get just 2 done a year, that seems to be the most successful formula. And I would definitely say that Minako's positive experience of Kerasilk is one to be taken on board - that's someone's personal experience rather than that of a stylist who has a product to shift.

Finally, I should add that no one has suggested using kerasilk will give you Minako's hair!!! Where did that come from!?!? :-) No, I definitely wouldn't expect anyone, including a newbie, to think that!

What I said, and Minako has agreed with - is that based on her experience you can reasonably expect to get her results (i.e. hair that is not damaged / falling out / looks healthy) if you use the specific product she uses and if you have her hair type.

Not that keratin treatments will give you her hair type.

Anyway, as I say, I hope we can agree that it's okay to have different opinions. Thanks for your good wishes and I hope your shedding remains under control. :-)

Suzysu
October 24th, 2015, 05:34 PM
I'm so happy you said this . I will I am going to do the "at home" keratin treatment without the heat !!!

Also very intrigued. I didn't even know it could be done without heat.

Tell us more please.

Upside Down
October 25th, 2015, 03:16 PM
Ok so, here is a pic of after (http://www.dodaj.rs/f/J/Ss/e2XRE42/20151025203815.jpg). Airdried to 80% then bunned. I think one or two S waves got lost in the bun :) but texture is pretty much this, not styled just leave in and let it be.

Here is a pic of before (http://www.dodaj.rs/f/3M/Sm/4jT4ZM9Z/image-14e2ce3ab65bb637af.jpg) - months before - for reference. (styled to curly: cream, scrunched, airdried to 70% then diffused)

I am really happy with the results!

Rowdy
October 26th, 2015, 10:04 AM
Ok so, here is a pic of after (http://www.dodaj.rs/f/J/Ss/e2XRE42/20151025203815.jpg). Airdried to 80% then bunned. I think one or two S waves got lost in the bun :) but texture is pretty much this, not styled just leave in and let it be.

Here is a pic of before (http://www.dodaj.rs/f/3M/Sm/4jT4ZM9Z/image-14e2ce3ab65bb637af.jpg) - months before - for reference. (styled to curly: cream, scrunched, airdried to 70% then diffused)

I am really happy with the results!

Wow, what a difference!! It looks great. Now I want to do this :p

meteor
October 26th, 2015, 10:26 AM
^ It's amazing, Upside Down! :thud: Great job! :applause What a difference! It's like 2 completely different heads of hair, wow! :D
I LOVE both the curly and the straight/wavy versions!

MINAKO
October 26th, 2015, 12:29 PM
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/02DD79D8-03C8-475D-A91B-348F4B0B2FBB_zpspmmm2mzo.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/02DD79D8-03C8-475D-A91B-348F4B0B2FBB_zpspmmm2mzo.jpg.html)
Did my treatment yesterday. I wasn really preparing as much as i usually would. My hair was oily and super dirty. So i deep conditioned and clarified the night before in a hurry. Everything else is very much the same as in the last process i described.
The only didifference this time was that i used the Glampalm flatiron at 200C instead of the Cloud9 at 210C. It got my hair just as straight, but was much faster to work with. Also my hair feels thicker than the last time. Maybe its because it retained more moistre idk.
I cut off about an inch and evened a few pieces here and there. Then washed and sealed it with the serum. I really dont mind having 1c/2a ish bun waves at the moment. Poker straight feels super nice but my hair moves around alot like this and gets in the way of everything.
The detail shots are after throwing hair around wildly, this sort of tangle freeness is a blessing for me.

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/C6686537-F138-4C6F-A551-3F4821202ACD_zpsc6x0989g.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/C6686537-F138-4C6F-A551-3F4821202ACD_zpsc6x0989g.jpg.html)
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/5BA23F20-4A96-4D0E-8B91-06B6A3A798A8_zpsb6gpuqnf.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/5BA23F20-4A96-4D0E-8B91-06B6A3A798A8_zpsb6gpuqnf.jpg.html)

meteor
October 26th, 2015, 01:16 PM
^ It looks absolutely amazing, MINAKO! :thud: Super-sleek and shiny and thick! Congratulations on such gorgeous results! :applause

MINAKO
October 26th, 2015, 01:32 PM
Thank you meteor! Looking at my hair in pics i can't believe i made it from frizzy waistlength to almost emichiee classic awesomeness. It will be even shinier end of this week as i also have to do my henndigo, yay!

missblueeyes
October 26th, 2015, 04:51 PM
Amazing work, MINAKO! I wish that hair grew out of my hair like that. :crush: The super-straightness that you got right after the treatment suits you so well!

Suzysu
October 26th, 2015, 08:35 PM
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/02DD79D8-03C8-475D-A91B-348F4B0B2FBB_zpspmmm2mzo.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/02DD79D8-03C8-475D-A91B-348F4B0B2FBB_zpspmmm2mzo.jpg.html)
Did my treatment yesterday. I wasn really preparing as much as i usually would. My hair was oily and super dirty. So i deep conditioned and clarified the night before in a hurry. Everything else is very much the same as in the last process i described.
The only didifference this time was that i used the Glampalm flatiron at 200C instead of the Cloud9 at 210C. It got my hair just as straight, but was much faster to work with. Also my hair feels thicker than the last time. Maybe its because it retained more moistre idk.
I cut off about an inch and evened a few pieces here and there. Then washed and sealed it with the serum. I really dont mind having 1c/2a ish bun waves at the moment. Poker straight feels super nice but my hair moves around alot like this and gets in the way of everything.
The detail shots are after throwing hair around wildly, this sort of tangle freeness is a blessing for me.

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/C6686537-F138-4C6F-A551-3F4821202ACD_zpsc6x0989g.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/C6686537-F138-4C6F-A551-3F4821202ACD_zpsc6x0989g.jpg.html)
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/5BA23F20-4A96-4D0E-8B91-06B6A3A798A8_zpsb6gpuqnf.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/5BA23F20-4A96-4D0E-8B91-06B6A3A798A8_zpsb6gpuqnf.jpg.html)

Gorgeous, lovely thick, long hair! Totally amazing. I will never tire of admiring it.

Looking at a previous post it sounds like growing it as long as it is was a real journey - so you haven't always had long hair?

Aside from the keratin treatment (you know how I feel about them) what do you think made the difference? In terms of the length, I know you don't hold with it being genetic and that you think it achievable for most of us.

Here's hoping! I would love to work out how.

Prior to my keratin treatment nightmare, I had been growing my hair for 15 years - no blow drying, no flat ironing, no chemicals - with the exception of 10% of my hair which was dyed - yet it only grew to APL (when held straight).

This was the longest it had ever grown - by miles - a huge growth spurt. I feel that shampooing my hair every day had 2 results:

1. Made my hair grow very fast (due to scalp stimulation)
2. Made my hair very dry (due to the shampoo)

I now plan to massage my hair every day (for scalp stimulation) while washing it just once a week - to avoid dryness.

I have also started on the legendary Monistat! I need the boost as I am starting from scratch for most of my hair and trying to get regrowth.

Is there anything you'd recommend?

This has turned into a bit of a cheeky thread hijack actually - sorry - so if you have an existing post that details your hair care routine, please do just point me that way!

Thanks so much.

Colochita
October 26th, 2015, 08:39 PM
Your hair is so beautiful, MINAKO! :love: Just stopping in to say so.

I'm still curious about keratin, but haven't been able to find one of the safer brands, so I've just been continuing on with my lovely kinks and coils as they are. Really debating straightening somewhat for maintenance and visible length in the future. I'd prefer a stretched (sort of blownout) look to pin straight. A regimen of stretched braidouts would suit me well aesthetically I think.

Alex Lou
October 26th, 2015, 08:43 PM
I really need to do this. Any chance you'll write a tutorial, Minako? I know you already have most of the info available in this thread.

yahirwaO.o
October 26th, 2015, 10:38 PM
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/02DD79D8-03C8-475D-A91B-348F4B0B2FBB_zpspmmm2mzo.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/02DD79D8-03C8-475D-A91B-348F4B0B2FBB_zpspmmm2mzo.jpg.html)

http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/C6686537-F138-4C6F-A551-3F4821202ACD_zpsc6x0989g.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/C6686537-F138-4C6F-A551-3F4821202ACD_zpsc6x0989g.jpg.html)
http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p506/Nori_Ko/5BA23F20-4A96-4D0E-8B91-06B6A3A798A8_zpsb6gpuqnf.jpg (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/Nori_Ko/media/5BA23F20-4A96-4D0E-8B91-06B6A3A798A8_zpsb6gpuqnf.jpg.html)

Gosh I already have black straight hair, but your results are insanely sleek and georgeous. And just like emichee Im able to grow classic lenght but with the worst taper ever, hers is actually really pretty and mine just looks unkept! :rolleyes:

Anyways MINAKO I suport the idea of writing a follow step tutorial on your blog or something. Im not keratin my hair, but I find fascinating the results on you!!! :thud:

Upside Down
October 27th, 2015, 07:22 AM
MINAKO, beautiful as always!

I have one quick question, you mention henna indigo - do you not wait 2 weeks before coloring as they recommend after keratine? Asking cause i need to henna too but was going to wait for a few weeks just in case. Or is henna not considered a coloring in this case?

missblueeyes
October 27th, 2015, 10:45 AM
@Suzysu: Could you tell us what your ponytail circumfence is and the general thickness of individual hairs on your head? Sorry if you already did, I might have missed it, but it's really hard to recommend anything without knowing your hair type. You see, Minako has a big ponytail circumfence, which eventually means she has less taper than most of us in the ii range at extreme lengths, which has to be taken into account. That being said, I think at least BSL-Waist is achieveable for most- if not all people if they handle their hair appropriately. (no harsh sulfates if you don't need them, no rough detangling / brushing, no dye or heat, protective hairstyles if needed)

@Alex Lou: I believe Minako already did write a tutorial for her kertain treamtents. It should be a couple sides back. :)

MINAKO
October 27th, 2015, 12:38 PM
Thanks everyone! So happy to be back on the board with all that good stuff on here.

Missblueeyes is right, i already wrote a tutorial on my process. Possible that i did this in another thread adressing keratin. I will try to find it to link to. Basically i follow the instructions of the product but with a few tweaks regarding the heat setting, number of passes and so on.

Colochita, in case you decide to try it it will definitely take alot of volume out in the first place as it makes the indivudual strands slicker and heavier. The only real problem i see with curlier textures would be straight ends after multiple uses, while regrowth is curly. So probably i would try to do touchups for these areas instead of doing the entire head after the first time. But of course that also depends on how the treatment would hold up. I personally didn't expirience any noticeable reversion, maybe 10% of my wave came back.

UpsideDown, the kerasilk instructions say its even fine to color on the same day. I just wait a week for the keratin to settle and restore my hairs moisture cotent, since the henndigo can be a bit drying. The thing is with the treatment you dont even feel any moisture loss, but i figured it must still be there and hair absolutely feels even nicer after a good deep conditioning and a couple days of leave in.

Yahirwao, you are funny, i wish i naturally had your straightness and shine so i could skip my treatment and enjoy my natural hair. :o

MINAKO
October 27th, 2015, 12:43 PM
I have classic length iii hair now, it used to take less time before that. However, im very precise when it comes to every single step in the process. i clarify my hair the night before and then dry it in braids. In the morning it goes:
30mins application, 30-45mins setting time, 30-45mins blowdrying, 2hrs+ toflatiron each half of my head, coffee and snack break in between (yes your arms will get tired), 15min swishing hair around like in a shampoo commercial lol, 20 mins to wash and apply finishing serum, afer that i just blowdry some of the excess moisture out and bun it till the next day. No need to completely style it all the way.
The good thing about Goldwell is that you have no waiting time where you have to be careful, onceinsed out theres no risk for it to leave kinks in your hair. But even with the waiting time it was never a problem for me. Just wait 3days and throw hair over pillow while asleep. I usually just waited a week until the next wash day anyways.
Of course you could do individual sections seperately to cut down on the time, like a quater or a half per session. Its just gonna look funny until you're all done.
One more thing i do is strand testing a week in advance every time before i use the product along with the high heat. I like to be very careful, bit didnt expirience any bad results yet.

ETA: i also have to stress the importance of the flatiron. You want to use a tourmaline (or any other ionic acting mineral) infused ceramic plates. Some companies recommend titanium which is less gentle on the hair IMO.
Best choice for me is the Cloud9 wide plate. Glampalm is said to be even better, but hey i cant buy every flatiron out there, which doesnt mean i havent actually tried to do so. :P

There it is. I pretty much did the same thing apart from using another flatiron and a slightly different prepoo/wash routine.

tigress86
October 27th, 2015, 02:46 PM
Minako, I am sure you have written about your haircare routine here, but I must have missed it. Do you use proteins? How has your hair reacted to protein/keratin containing shampoos and conditioners before the keratin treatment? I have been considering the treatment for a while, but my hair is quite sensitive to protein, especially products that contain hydrolyzed keratin, so I am afraid that my hair won't react well to the treatment.

MINAKO
October 27th, 2015, 03:38 PM
Yes i do use a variety of proteins in my regular routine too. Basically i'm doing well with anything but wheat protein which makes my hair kinds hard easily, anything else is fine and more or less impossible to cause any downsides, my hair just takes until it is saturated enough and then doesn't want more. My favorites aside from keratin would be silk and rice protein, i can do well with soy too.
I did use keratin products prior to my treatments and definitely my hair likes them. So it would be difficult for me to predicts how another head of hair that is sensitive to keratin would turn out. All i can say is that the treatment is incredibly softening. I cant imagine it causing breakage or tangling on anyone if used in combination with a suitable heat setting.

Upside Down
November 8th, 2015, 12:53 PM
MINAKO, I found the info online, I got instructions in many languages but none that I understand :lol:

As for my hair, this is a dream! I am tangle free even a week after wash day. It shines. It is soft. Styling is a breeze. I airdry a bit, use the blowdryer on cold and bun it and it looks great when I let it down.
I wore it down twice last week lol I missed wearing it down. Also I don't need to touch up my bangs for a while week (wash to wash)

If anything I am losing less hair than before and definetly breaking off less hair when I comb (I hardly find any broken hairs where I used to find 5-10 before).

We will see in the next months obviously, but for now this treatment is a dream. Wish I did this long ago :lol:

arelrios
November 8th, 2015, 04:38 PM
Guys, maybe I asked this before,... or someone else did... If so, apologies, but: is there a way of using this treatment without keeping the hairs super straight? Let's see.... I have 2a hair, but the frizz makes is look super messy...I've tried a few things, but nothing seems to help it... don't get me wrong, I like the waves, but it looks so unkept... Ideally, I would like to keep some wave but minimize the frizz..

I think I want to do this, ... I recently used a treatment advertised as keratin - comes in a pack, and it really helped the overall quality of my hair...

Suzysu
November 9th, 2015, 03:43 PM
Guys, maybe I asked this before,... or someone else did... If so, apologies, but: is there a way of using this treatment without keeping the hairs super straight? Let's see.... I have 2a hair, but the frizz makes is look super messy...I've tried a few things, but nothing seems to help it... don't get me wrong, I like the waves, but it looks so unkept... Ideally, I would like to keep some wave but minimize the frizz..

I think I want to do this, ... I recently used a treatment advertised as keratin - comes in a pack, and it really helped the overall quality of my hair...

Was it a keratin treatment - or simply a conditioner with Keratin in it?

It isn't the keratin in a keratin treatment that can damage people's hair (http://www.short-hair-style.com/reaction-to-keratin-treatment-eyes-wide-shut.html)- it is the formaldehyde or whatever harsh chemical that is used as a substitute for the formaldehyde. You do need really strong chemicals in order to straighten the hair.

Many great products (shampoos, conditioners, etc) have keratin in them, but are not keratin treatments (where the product coats the hair and is flat ironed in to seal it).

In terms of keratin treatments and curl pattern, the one I had has straightened my hair, probably permanently.

You see, when you have a keratin treatment and you want to keep it for as long as possible, you avoid sulphate shampoos in order to prolong the effects. But since a keratin treatment has caused me to lose over half of my hair, mostly by the root, I've used sulphate and sodium shampoos and washed it about 20 times to get it all out - but my curls have not returned.

But it is not the same for everyone. Some people have a keratin treatment and their curls / waves do come back.

In fact, after my first keratin treatment my curls came back within 2 weeks (not ideal but that's another story) - but I think it can build up over time though and that makes it awkward if you want to ever grow it out. (My current experience following on from my second keratin treatment.)

The specific Keratin treatment being talked about on this thread is Kerasilk. As you can see for some people who try it, like this lady on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFldzlQhH6Q) the waves / curls just never come back.

I think it depends on your hair texture and how often you have it done, but it's always going to be a risk. It's just a case of whether or not you think the risk is worth the potential reward.

Let us know how it goes.

Rowdy
November 9th, 2015, 03:49 PM
Guys, maybe I asked this before,... or someone else did... If so, apologies, but: is there a way of using this treatment without keeping the hairs super straight? Let's see.... I have 2a hair, but the frizz makes is look super messy...I've tried a few things, but nothing seems to help it... don't get me wrong, I like the waves, but it looks so unkept... Ideally, I would like to keep some wave but minimize the frizz..

I think I want to do this, ... I recently used a treatment advertised as keratin - comes in a pack, and it really helped the overall quality of my hair...

I think the heat setting used is mainly what determines how straight your hair gets… so the lower the temperature of the straightener the more the curl is retained. Someone posted a while back about just using a blow dryer to get the smoothing affects.

Suzysu
November 9th, 2015, 04:11 PM
I think the heat setting used is mainly what determines how straight your hair gets… so the lower the temperature of the straightener the more the curl is retained. Someone posted a while back about just using a blow dryer to get the smoothing affects.

That makes logical sense - but my salon only used a temperature of 200 on the small amount of my hair (10%) that was dyed - very low for a keratin treatment - yet the curl hasn't returned there either.

I do think however, that if this can be done by simply using a blow dryer and without flat ironing, then that could only be a positive for the condition of the hair.

arelrios
November 9th, 2015, 06:09 PM
Thank you Rowdy and Suzy.... I used this pack (http://www.ulta.com/ulta/browse/productDetail.jsp?productId=xlsImpprod11171015) and as I said, it really helped with the softness and shine of my hair...

And yes, mostly I'm looking for something that helps the condition of the hair ... so it makes sense to do the blow dryer only, right?

gthlvrmx
November 9th, 2015, 06:14 PM
Thank you Rowdy and Suzy.... I used this pack (http://www.ulta.com/ulta/browse/productDetail.jsp?productId=xlsImpprod11171015) and as I said, it really helped with the softness and shine of my hair...

And yes, mostly I'm looking for something that helps the condition of the hair ... so it makes sense to do the blow dryer only, right?

The ingredients on says this "Water, ceteayl alcohol, lanolin quaternium 18". What ingredients does your package say if you still have the paper? I don't see how something can be a protein treatment if it doesn't have protein, maybe lanolin quaternium is the protein though.

arelrios
November 9th, 2015, 06:21 PM
The ingredients on says this "Water, ceteayl alcohol, lanolin quaternium 18". What ingredients does your package say if you still have the paper? I don't see how something can be a protein treatment if it doesn't have protein, maybe lanolin quaternium is the protein though.

lol... talk about deceit... lol... I don't have the pack unfortunately... and I bought it and used it because of the name ... silly me ... :laugh:

Thank you gthlvrmx

gthlvrmx
November 9th, 2015, 06:28 PM
lol... talk about deceit... lol... I don't have the pack unfortunately... and I bought it and used it because of the name ... silly me ... :laugh:

Thank you gthlvrmx

It's ok :) You're welcome. Are you looking for only a protein treatment? If so, some conditioners have protein in it like Suave Naturals Coconut conditioner. You can also try gelatin for your hair. If you are looking for the Keratin Straightening treatment, that may be a bit different than just doing a simple protein treatment.

arelrios
November 9th, 2015, 08:11 PM
It's ok :) You're welcome. Are you looking for only a protein treatment? If so, some conditioners have protein in it like Suave Naturals Coconut conditioner. You can also try gelatin for your hair. If you are looking for the Keratin Straightening treatment, that may be a bit different than just doing a simple protein treatment.

Coconut Suave conditioner didn't work for me ... and I do gelatin treatments from time to time... However, I am looking to get all the advantage of what Minako and HintOfMint have achieved with their treatments without losing the little wave I have... Am I asking too much??? lol

Thanks for your input :)

Upside Down
November 10th, 2015, 01:19 AM
Well with kerasilk you can use medium shape component and intense smooth. Still it is cumulative so I would be afraid that you'd lose wave after a few applications if not immediately.

It depends on your hairtype, hear setting, number of applications etc ... but I have little experience.

Suzysu
November 10th, 2015, 03:38 AM
Well with kerasilk you can use medium shape component and intense smooth. Still it is cumulative so I would be afraid that you'd lose wave after a few applications if not immediately.

It depends on your hairtype, hear setting, number of applications etc ... but I have little experience.

Seconded by me. As in that Kerasilk Youtube video I linked to, people find with keratin treatments that they lose wave / curl pattern - but it doesn't always happen.

It happened to me but it does depend on hair type, and how many times you have it done. The heat settings used on me were very low so I can't comment on whether that helps retain curl pattern but it would reduce damage.

There is no doubt at all that it is a very real risk - Arelrios, why not see if a salon will do a strand test?

arelrios
November 10th, 2015, 07:28 PM
Thank you guys :)

copperlites
November 15th, 2015, 07:00 AM
This is why I would like to get the kerasilk treatment.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19834&d=1447591213

My Hair just does not have a consistent natural texture. Most of the canopy the canopy is straight and frizzy, whist the underneath part is very wavy, more so on the right than the left. If I had a more consistent texture, of ANY kind, it may be more workable, but this is a nightmare. I have tried curly girl methods etc and all sorts of product to try and create a similar wave pattern. , all with no result. Over the years i have tried shorter hair, and layers, all recommended by hairdressers thinking the curl would spring up. but it never does. Always the top layer of frizz hides the much nicer curls below.

Also, many new growth baby hairs grow OUT at right angles to my head, particularly the ones on the sides. This looks very clownish. Usually I tame them for work with aloe gel but i have been home all day so have not tamed anything, and the day is nearly over, so they are at their most sticky outest :eyebrows:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19836&d=1447591661

So, I am booked in for the goldwell Kerasilk treatment on Thursday. I will report back on how it goes.

Arctic
November 15th, 2015, 08:34 AM
arelrios and gthlvrmx (I am a bit late with this INCI, I just noticed you talked about it days ago...)

From the web:


Hask Keratin Protein Deep Conditioning Packet 1.75 oz.

Ingredients

Water , Cetearyl Alcohol , Cetrimonium Chloride , Lanolin , Quaternium-18 , Cetyl Alcohol , Keratin Amino Acids , Cocoyl Hydrolyzed Keratin , Cocoyl Hydrolyzed Collagen , Hydrolyzed Collagen , Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein , Sesamum Indicum Seed Oil (Sesame) , Simmondsia Chinensis Seed Oil (Jojoba) , Cocos Nucifera Oil (Coconut) , Triticum Vulgare Starch (Wheat) , Siloxysilicate , Hydroxypropyltrimonium Hydrolyzed Rice Protein , Oryza Sativa Extract (Rice) , Panthenyl Hydroxypropyl Steardimonium Chloride , Isopropyl Palmitate , Glycerin , Citric Acid , Isostearic Acid , Lanolin Alcohol , Lecithin , Oleyl Sarcosine , Sorbitan Oleate , Butyl Stearate , Tetrasodium Glutamate Diacetate , DMDM Hydantoin , Caprylyl Glycol , Phenoxyethanol , Hexylene Glycol , Fragrance


Ulta site seemed to have truncated the INCI.

lapushka
November 15th, 2015, 10:06 AM
This is why I would like to get the kerasilk treatment.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19834&d=1447591213

My Hair just does not have a consistent natural texture. Most of the canopy the canopy is straight and frizzy, whist the underneath part is very wavy, more so on the right than the left. If I had a more consistent texture, of ANY kind, it may be more workable, but this is a nightmare.

I don't have a consistent "pattern" either. I have learned to live with it after hugely screwing it up in my teens & twenties! It's not horrible in your picture, and I'm sure you can try out other routines first before trying this! Things like WCC, CWC for example.
http://i.imgur.com/YyrelP3.jpg

KittyBird
November 15th, 2015, 10:57 AM
I also have an inconsistent pattern, and like Lapushka, I've just learned to live with it. Some parts of my hair try to spiral, other parts are very wavy and only a bit wavy, and some is just pin straight.
I think yours looks nice as it is, Copperlites, but I hope the kerasilk treatment will give you the results you're looking for. :)

copperlites
November 15th, 2015, 03:01 PM
Thanks Lapushka and kittybird for your kind words, compliments and encouraging advice. I have to say you both have gorgeous hair! Kittybird you have been a hair idol of mine for a while, in both texture and colour. Lapushka, you are one of the gurus here. Your knowledge is extensive and you are so generous in sharing and supporting people. I know you don't share hair pictures often, so thanks for sharing, it is lovely to put some hair to the name :)
My plan really is to try and even this out a bit. The last 6 inches have been subjected to a at least 4 different, straightening treatments over their lifetime. I'm resigned to chopping them off but hoping by evening out the texture a bit I can get another 6 months growth in first then only have to cut back to just above bra strap. I'm just not ready to lose 6 inches now .... And whilst this part of the texture is ok ... The ends look much straighter and scraggly. i hope this treatment doesn't force my hand with them but if so, so be it. I'm
Planning on the less straightening solution which the stylist says will just tame my frizzies. Fingers crossed.

gthlvrmx
November 16th, 2015, 02:59 PM
arelrios and gthlvrmx (I am a bit late with this INCI, I just noticed you talked about it days ago...)

From the web:



Ulta site seemed to have truncated the INCI.

That makes much more sense! Thank you for that, I hope arelrios sees this.

chen bao jun
November 16th, 2015, 04:10 PM
Wow, Lapuska, you have absolutely gorgeous hair. I never saw a picture before.

Copperlites, I hope you get the result you want and no damage.

I've been watching old silent movies a lot recently. I watched on recently by Fritz Lang called the Nibelung (its in two parts, Siegfried and Kriemhild's revenge and is very interesting if you like silent movies). Anyway, my point is, being an LHCer, I couldn't help but notice all their hair --wigs in some cases, one 'heroine' had the knee length wig of blond hair in the most braid arrangement you ever saw but that's not my point. The point is, that all the 'attractive' characters, had hair that we would call 'crazy' nowadays. Thick hair with inconsistent texture, triangle head all over the place, it would blow in the wind and then stick out at the sides and STAY that way for another 10 or 15 minutes of movie--totally out of control--And the unattractive characters had the straight smooth hair that lay down flat and was in control.

I was so fascinated that I kept rewinding and rewatching and thinking, wow, how things have changed. It was obviously pre-blower and pre hair gel and and definitely pre keratin treatment type straightening, although I'm sure they had other ways to straighten (and to curl, which seems like more what they wanted--)

lapushka
November 16th, 2015, 04:34 PM
Wow, Lapuska, you have absolutely gorgeous hair. I never saw a picture before.

Thank you, chen, means a lot to me! :flower:

littlestarface
November 16th, 2015, 11:44 PM
I also have an inconsistent pattern, and like Lapushka, I've just learned to live with it. Some parts of my hair try to spiral, other parts are very wavy and only a bit wavy, and some is just pin straight.
I think yours looks nice as it is, Copperlites, but I hope the kerasilk treatment will give you the results you're looking for. :)

Same for me, I think its just the horrors of being a wavy unfortunately. My ends are see through straight most of the time, the curliest is my bangs and the middle is wavy and the under layer is really straight.

copperlites
November 20th, 2015, 11:49 PM
Inspired by Lapushka and Kittybird's drop dead gorgeous hair, heeding advice and my own misgivings I cancelled the keratin treatment and am going to learn to embrace my natural texture. The salon were not keen in doing a strand test "as its a 3 hour process" and I found their answers to my well educated questions condescending.
I have to realise that my super fine hair just can't take the punishment of straightening every 6to 8 months. I'm already colouring as I'm not ready to embrace my silvers. Soon after I joined LHC in Feb I switched to an organic salon which uses less harmful chemicals and my hair has improved immensely over the last 9 months so I Don't want to undo the hard work.

Suzysu
November 21st, 2015, 03:22 AM
Inspired by Lapushka and Kittybird's drop dead gorgeous hair, heeding advice and my own misgivings I cancelled the keratin treatment and am going to learn to embrace my natural texture. The salon were not keen in doing a strand test "as its a 3 hour process" and I found their answers to my well educated questions condescending.
I have to realise that my super fine hair just can't take the punishment of straightening every 6to 8 months. I'm already colouring as I'm not ready to embrace my silvers. Soon after I joined LHC in Feb I switched to an organic salon which uses less harmful chemicals and my hair has improved immensely over the last 9 months so I Don't want to undo the hard work.

I wish I'd been as sensible as you. My hair is also relatively fine and it will take years to get back what I've lost to keratin straightening.

Never never never never never again.

You will definitely find other ways to tame your (beautiful) locks. This forum has taught me so much. Not only has it helped me massively increase my growth rate (either Daktarin or castor oil) but also how to look after what I have. For example, I now swear by Raw Shea Butter Restorative Conditioner - kindly mentioned to me by Lapushka.

You'll find out what works for you. Good luck!

lapushka
November 21st, 2015, 06:14 AM
Inspired by Lapushka and Kittybird's drop dead gorgeous hair, heeding advice and my own misgivings I cancelled the keratin treatment and am going to learn to embrace my natural texture. The salon were not keen in doing a strand test "as its a 3 hour process" and I found their answers to my well educated questions condescending.
I have to realise that my super fine hair just can't take the punishment of straightening every 6to 8 months. I'm already colouring as I'm not ready to embrace my silvers. Soon after I joined LHC in Feb I switched to an organic salon which uses less harmful chemicals and my hair has improved immensely over the last 9 months so I Don't want to undo the hard work.

Oh that's so nice that you're giving it a go! I hope you find products that moisturize well enough to get the wave pattern to form (essential). If you have any questions, feel free to ask away!!!

MINAKO
November 21st, 2015, 06:25 AM
I'm repeating myself in case it gets lost. Anyone who wants to get rid if frizz but maintain their overall texture, don't use keratin treatments. There is a ton of products like Keratin Complex Infusion Therapy (by far my personal favorite) that smooths down the cuticle and softens hair to arrange the pattern while not altering the overall texture in any way. It's just a leave in that requires not heat whatsoever, so i would most likely give that a go.

Suzysu
November 21st, 2015, 06:47 AM
Oh that's so nice that you're giving it a go! I hope you find products that moisturize well enough to get the wave pattern to form (essential). If you have any questions, feel free to ask away!!!

Thanks Lapushka. That Shea Butter conditioner has really surprised me. I am so glad you mentioned it. I have only used it once and it has somehow changed everything.

I actually forgot to use it as a conditioner - I remembered straight after I'd already used my usual conditioner, and was really irritated with myself. But I remembered reading Amazon reviews where a lot of people put it in damp hair as a leave-in. Well, that's exactly what I did. And I have my hair back! The 50% of it that is still on my head anyway...

This shea butter sinks in and disappears, leaving strong looking, silky hair. The hair looks healthy and clumps together in the natural wave pattern - and last night I was out in wet weather and had no frizzing up whatsoever, which is unheard of for me.

Although the rubbish, frizzy, damaged hair now looks healthy. I know it cannot actually be healthy. No product can repair hair, only mask the damage. I am therefore still going to micro-trim it because I have always had a problem with maintaining thickness at the ends - and this will only be intensified by my hair loss.

Now, my question for you is - why doesn't oil work for my fine 3B/3C hair as shea butter did? Sure, castor oil was great for the scalp in terms of growth, but no oil I tried conditioned my hair. Yet, they work brilliantly for so many other people. Is it very different in composition?

I used coconut oil for a good few weeks and it just sat on top of my hair, didn't sink in at all. Plus, no matter how little I put on, perhaps because I have fine hair, it looked very oily. I loved it on my face, however!

I also tried EVOO, which seemed somewhat better in terms of sinking in a little - but there is no comparison between this and the results of the shea butter. It's amazing how differently people's hair reacts to the same products.

So, it would be hard for me to recommend shea butter to people who have damaged their hair from keratin treatments, because I strongly suspect that it wouldn't work for every hair type.

MINAKO
November 21st, 2015, 07:05 AM
My best bet for people who dislike coconut oil is sesame and i personally prefer cocoa butter to shea. The is not oil ( or any product for that matters) that works for literally any hairtype and everyone.
Very stringy pieces will never return to their full glory of untouched wavyness, in the long run the only option is to wait for them to grow long enough to eventually chop at least enouhh to get rid of the obvious ones.

lapushka
November 21st, 2015, 07:40 AM
Thanks Lapushka. That Shea Butter conditioner has really surprised me. I am so glad you mentioned it. I have only used it once and it has somehow changed everything.

I actually forgot to use it as a conditioner - I remembered straight after I'd already used my usual conditioner, and was really irritated with myself. But I remembered reading Amazon reviews where a lot of people put it in damp hair as a leave-in. Well, that's exactly what I did. And I have my hair back! The 50% of it that is still on my head anyway...

This shea butter sinks in and disappears, leaving strong looking, silky hair. The hair looks healthy and clumps together in the natural wave pattern - and last night I was out in wet weather and had no frizzing up whatsoever, which is unheard of for me.

Although the rubbish, frizzy, damaged hair now looks healthy. I know it cannot actually be healthy. No product can repair hair, only mask the damage. I am therefore still going to micro-trim it because I have always had a problem with maintaining thickness at the ends - and this will only be intensified by my hair loss.

Now, my question for you is - why doesn't oil work for my fine 3B/3C hair as shea butter did? Sure, castor oil was great for the scalp in terms of growth, but no oil I tried conditioned my hair. Yet, they work brilliantly for so many other people. Is it very different in composition?

Wow, you are kidding?! That is *so* amazing! I'm glad it worked for you. Maybe using it as a leave-in is key.

Not everyone can handle oils. I can't use them as a pre-poo; doesn't sink in, even a small amount. It does, however, work on damp hair and as a rinse-out (link in signature). Odd. But hey...

Suzysu
November 21st, 2015, 07:53 AM
My best bet for people who dislike coconut oil is sesame and i personally prefer cocoa butter to shea. The is not oil ( or any product for that matters) that works for literally any hairtype and everyone.
Very stringy pieces will never return to their full glory of untouched wavyness, in the long run the only option is to wait for them to grow long enough to eventually chop at least enouhh to get rid of the obvious ones.

Yes, and I suppose I should be clear that I've only tried one specific shea butter product - Raw Shea Butter Restorative Conditioner - which includes other ingredients that may, for all I know, be doing all the good.

And I have no doubt, whatsoever, that if I stop using it, the hair will return to it's frizzy mess - but it's so nice to be able to make it look lovely, even though it's just an illusion!

I will definitely look into cocoa butter and sesame oil, thanks Minako.

MINAKO
November 21st, 2015, 07:57 AM
Everything is an illusion, eventhe joy perfectly healthy long hair without any products would be nothing but our minds conditioned to the belief that its beautiful. So we might as well stick with what works for now to artificially create that. I love holy grail products just as mich, but it's nice to be able to identify the ingredient that makes the final difference, i agree. :)

Upside Down
November 26th, 2015, 03:14 AM
Just checking in. it has been a month or so, and some of my waves have returned, but I only see this briefly while air drying and then I blow dry on cold and bun.

I can wear my hair down for 5-6 hours and not have a tangled mess. It is still shiny and silky and practically tangle free!

No extra hair loss here, just shedding my regular amount.

Only little problem now is that since I had to trim my bangs, they are now harder to style than immediately after the treatment. After the treatment I could just use the round brush and blow dryer to get them into shape, and now I need my flatiron for them. Not that I mind using the flatiron, but I really prefer the blow dried look to the flat ironed, it is softer somehow.

I hope that in January I will go to Germany, and then I can buy big bottles of Kerasilk and do touch up on my bangs.

I haven't changed anything in my routine, decided I wouldn't be buying kerasilk aftercare products, just still use my sls free shampoo and total repair 5 by loreal which is just amazing for my hair. So far so good!

Upside Down
December 22nd, 2015, 06:53 AM
Ok 2 months later, my hair has reverted or grew significantly. It is poofy as hell. I have some spirals forming too when I airdry.

Condition of the lenght is still great and no shedding more than usual is happening. The poof is my regrowth from post partum shed and it is driving me crazy. I got so used to sleek hair so fast :lol:

I hope the cumulative effects kick in next time I do this, but I will wait at least two more months.

I will touch up my bangs and face framing hairs.

Can anyone recommend a shop that has kerasilk in germany? Walk in in Stuttgart or Frankfurt or online either is fine.

I can buy it locally but it is pretty expensive and I am more sure of the quality of products purchased in Germany.

arelrios
December 22nd, 2015, 05:25 PM
That makes much more sense! Thank you for that, I hope arelrios sees this.

Thank you! I only used the product that one time... someone in the forum recommended a henna cream (to color my greys) and it has definitely helped with the frizz... either that or the weather lol... the waves form nicer with less frizz and the puff is smaller lol ... also I changed to trader joe's shampoo and conditioner ;) I guess all the protein in all the new products are working for my benefit ;):)

Upside Down
January 11th, 2016, 05:08 AM
Hello all, I am traveling to Germany next week, so I am reviving this thread in hopes of a reply.

Does anyone know where to buy Kerasilk keratine treatment in Germany? I'd really appreciate any info.

Thank you! :puppykisses:

Mademoiselle
January 11th, 2016, 05:28 AM
I did keratin straightening in March 2015, my hair was dyed many colors, had frizz, waves and formless, I was afraid to do it but my hairdresser said I was gonna come in handy and stop because my hair would not need use hairdryer.
I did kerapro 5, has no formaldehyde, is based carbocysteine, he said he would last four months or so.
My hair turned smooth, without frizz, and very bright, it dont spoiling anything my hair.
To this day I have no frizz (10 months later) and quite straight but never had marked waves, I can go out without my hair without looking like a lion ... for me it's the best I could do, my hair was before chaos ... this is my experience with my keratin straightening:popcorn:

Upside Down
January 11th, 2016, 09:48 AM
Thats wonderful, mademoiselle.

Regarding the kerasilk, I think I found it.

There is a new version of the product. I can let you know soon, I guess

Alex Lou
March 27th, 2016, 06:14 PM
I'm ready to try this but the initial investment in goldwell still has me nervous. Too bad I don't seem to be able to find any sites that sell single applications to the US.

Upside Down
April 10th, 2016, 07:49 AM
Alex I know. It really is expensive and the interesting thing is the big bittle should last like ten or twenty years.

Maybe you can irder single application bottles from europe?

I got big bottles. I did my second treatment. It is a new formulation and I am happy with it. The only thing I notice is that smell is less present than with the old one.

Airdried:

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u439/mackanaopacka/Public/67A61263-17E5-4957-B213-519C3D280639_zpsflca9t6f.jpg

And when I pass a brush through it with blow drier for just a few minutes:

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u439/mackanaopacka/Public/D1DEEBE9-2D48-4F88-BA1D-90C12736DFF4_zpsdshdi7w6.jpg

I am so happy with this. So, so happy.

Alex Lou
May 7th, 2016, 01:10 AM
Upside Down,
Your elongated spirals look amazing! So pretty. :)

So you used the Goldwell? Anything you did differently than Minako?

Upside Down
May 7th, 2016, 08:17 AM
Hi Alex. Thank you :blossom:

Well, I don't think I do anything different than MINAKO. The different result is because of different hairtypes and she has been doing this for way longer than me.

I use Goldwell kerasilk, yes. First time I bought single use bottles and this was the old formulation. They then explained in the stores that the old firmulation is no longer available, only some stores still have some in stock. And I got the new formulation,which I am happy with and it has less if a smell than the old one. Although I may be imagining it and they just changed the bottles :lol:

Either way, it's a good product.

I follow their instructions, except I only use 140 or 160 (celsius) setting on my iron (depending on where on my head) and I did 5 passes this time. Last time 4 but I don't see so much damage with 5. Time will tell.

Alex Lou
May 8th, 2016, 06:22 PM
Thanks for your reply, Upside Down. :)

I'm gonna try the Goldwell. I just need to buy and find time to try it out. I think I'm going to just do all around the top of my head, and leave the underside of my hair alone to save processing time. Since the underside of my hair is pretty much straight and doesn't need it.

BiancaVega
June 3rd, 2016, 11:46 AM
Hello Ladies!

I have been debating weather or not I want to do the keratin treatment on my hair. I am am also looking for the right type of keratin treatment as I understand that there are many different types. I did a quick search and found that Keratin Complex products have pretty good reviews. Has anyone tried this brand ? Does it work? I would love you hear your feedback. Thank You! https://www.keratincomplex.com/

Rowdy
August 24th, 2016, 07:27 AM
Well, I think I'm going to give this a try. I finally found some Goldwell Kerasilk so I'm going to buy it.

lapushka
August 24th, 2016, 08:11 AM
Well, I think I'm going to give this a try. I finally found some Goldwell Kerasilk so I'm going to buy it.

I hope it turns out well. Are you expecting totally straight results? Because when you're very curly or quite, the waves might not totally be gone, so it might mean that you'd have to start straightening a lot. IDK. Good luck!

Rowdy
August 24th, 2016, 08:38 AM
Thanks! I am looking for an overall frizz reduction and to go from curly-wavy to a wavy. That would be my goal for the first application. If I like the results I'll continue and the progressive straightening effects would be welcome as well.

Oh! I forgot to add I got the 'shape medium' as it was almost half the price of the 'shape intense' so I'm not expecting to get into the 1s at all.

Upside Down
October 16th, 2016, 10:26 AM
It is 6 months since my last keratine. I'll put this out there for whoever may be using keratine.

My hair has not reverted almost at all!! It is silky and streight. I literally don't see why I would do another application. The main difference between this last application and the one before is that I mostly did scalp only washes.
I redid my bangs because those got poofy, some 2 months ago.

Definetly recommend scalp only washing to all!!! Saves money and effort and keratine too apparently :D

Rowdy
October 19th, 2016, 05:48 PM
Thanks for the update! Especially about the staying power. I'm about a month in and I think I'm just going to do another application on my nape hair to try and get them closer to my canopy wave. I've been doing a full wash every week and scalp washes every three days or so. What shampoo have you been using?

jennraq
October 24th, 2016, 01:11 PM
Ok 2 months later, my hair has reverted or grew significantly. It is poofy as hell. I have some spirals forming too when I airdry.

Condition of the lenght is still great and no shedding more than usual is happening. The poof is my regrowth from post partum shed and it is driving me crazy. I got so used to sleek hair so fast :lol:

I hope the cumulative effects kick in next time I do this, but I will wait at least two more months.

I will touch up my bangs and face framing hairs.

Can anyone recommend a shop that has kerasilk in germany? Walk in in Stuttgart or Frankfurt or online either is fine.

I can buy it locally but it is pretty expensive and I am more sure of the quality of products purchased in Germany.

Upside Down, Im in Germany now to see family. I was hoping to get some big Kerasilk bottles. Where in Germany did you end up buying yours?

Upside Down
October 24th, 2016, 02:19 PM
Thanks for the update! Especially about the staying power. I'm about a month in and I think I'm just going to do another application on my nape hair to try and get them closer to my canopy wave. I've been doing a full wash every week and scalp washes every three days or so. What shampoo have you been using?

Oh I don't put much mind to my shampoo. I use pantene crystal clear and I dilute it heavily. I never shampoo my whole hair, just the scalp, except for clarifying.

After my first keratine I felt like 3 months in (or even sooner?) I needed another application. I didn't do it, though for fear of damage. But second lasted much longer! It is definetly cumulative.


Upside Down, Im in Germany now to see family. I was hoping to get some big Kerasilk bottles. Where in Germany did you end up buying yours?

Hmm I got it from an online store. I think delivery was pretty quick, so ask them. You may also qualify for a tax refund.

http://www.beautyhair24shop.de/

BroomHilda
December 6th, 2016, 08:58 PM
Hmm I got it from an online store. I think delivery was pretty quick, so ask them. You may also qualify for a tax refund.

http://www.beautyhair24shop.de/

Could you please post the url to the actual product? I can't find it with simple search in their store

arelrios
December 7th, 2016, 10:36 AM
Still thinking and debating about doing this... I am really tired of the frizz and unmanageability of my hair... I am just afraid it will increase the shedding or it will affect the scalp and send my SD into crazy mode... :(

dinasak
December 7th, 2016, 11:05 AM
I've tried this but it only lasted through a few washes :$

Upside Down
December 7th, 2016, 02:58 PM
Could you please post the url to the actual product? I can't find it with simple search in their store

Honestly, no. I just tried searching but no luck either. But drop them an email, they are really forthcoming!

There was also another shop that I bought small bottles from
http://www.roemer-haar-design.de/

It was all a while ago and things change. Maybe they don't carry it anymore :( you could ask if they can direct you somewhere.

Upside Down
December 7th, 2016, 03:02 PM
Still thinking and debating about doing this... I am really tired of the frizz and unmanageability of my hair... I am just afraid it will increase the shedding or it will affect the scalp and send my SD into crazy mode... :(

Fwiiw I haven't had any scalp issues. It doesn't touch your scalp directly although yes some of it must get there when washing out.

It is acidic, and I need to wipe any drippings from my skin because they sting. Not like they will burn through my skin but I can feel it sting a bit.

Honestly with SD... I have no idea how that would go. You could ask a doctor perhaps. Or stay safe and skip keratin :lol:

BroomHilda
December 7th, 2016, 06:54 PM
thanks upside down. It looks like it is not available anywhere online. I think I will proceed with QOD prime but I haven't yet find any actual review on it



There is always the option of applying the product 1 or more inches away from the scalp minimizing any possibility of touching your scalp.
But you need to be very careful

That being said, you can check out the Qod max prime or Qod max silver that do not require leaving the product in. Just application on clean hair, a waiting period and then rinsing. After that you can blow dry-flat iron the hair.
Sounds safer

arelrios
December 8th, 2016, 09:53 AM
thanks upside down. It looks like it is not available anywhere online. I think I will proceed with QOD prime but I haven't yet find any actual review on it



There is always the option of applying the product 1 or more inches away from the scalp minimizing any possibility of touching your scalp.
But you need to be very careful

That being said, you can check out the Qod max prime or Qod max silver that do not require leaving the product in. Just application on clean hair, a waiting period and then rinsing. After that you can blow dry-flat iron the hair.
Sounds safer

Thank you both.... for now I think I might even try the other product minako suggested (it is not permanent and cheaper) and depending on how that goes, then I will try the keratin after...

Lately I've been hearing a lot of 'Botox for hair'... is it the same thing I wonder... supposedly it has the same effects as keratin: no frizz straight hair...

Let's see how it goes with the first product and I will move from there :)

PS: I tried to quote both of you ... but obviously it didn't work... so my thank you is for both of you... upside down and BroomHilda

Upside Down
December 8th, 2016, 01:14 PM
You're wellcone arelrios. Let us know how it went :)


thanks upside down. It looks like it is not available anywhere online. I think I will proceed with QOD prime but I haven't yet find any actual review on it



There is always the option of applying the product 1 or more inches away from the scalp minimizing any possibility of touching your scalp.
But you need to be very careful

That being said, you can check out the Qod max prime or Qod max silver that do not require leaving the product in. Just application on clean hair, a waiting period and then rinsing. After that you can blow dry-flat iron the hair.
Sounds safer


Really it isn't available for purchase? That's weird. I'd ask them anyway.
Phew now I am so happy I bought the big bottles when I did!

Alex Lou
December 12th, 2016, 04:43 PM
I finally purchased Goldwell and a decent iron. I hope to find time to attempt the treatment over the holiday. Now I'm concerned about the product expiring before I'm able to use it all since all I could find were the big bottles. So if anyone wants to buy Goldwell in smaller quantities at cost+shipping, we could make some arrangements.

mdvl
December 13th, 2016, 12:21 PM
Keratin works temporary, for some hair types it doesn't work at all. If you don't want permanently straight hair you can try keratin. To get permanent results you should do Japanese straightening (http://japanesehairstraightening-pa-nj.com).
Difference between two of these is here (http://www.totalbeauty.com/content/gallery/keratin-hair-treatments/p48352/page3).

BroomHilda
December 13th, 2016, 03:00 PM
I finally purchased Goldwell and a decent iron. I hope to find time to attempt the treatment over the holiday. Now I'm concerned about the product expiring before I'm able to use it all since all I could find were the big bottles. So if anyone wants to buy Goldwell in smaller quantities at cost+shipping, we could make some arrangements.

Could you please post the store tha you bought it from?

Alex Lou
December 14th, 2016, 02:08 PM
Could you please post the store tha you bought it from?
Ebay! It's also available on other marketplaces with small sellers like amazon, sears, newegg, walmart marketplace. If you do a google shopping search, you'll hit a bunch of listings. I spent more for the new bottle design because that's an indication that they haven't been sitting around for years. I was skeptical about trusting sellers with this kind of product, but I've been wanting to purchase for months and decided I'd better just do it, otherwise I'll never do it.

Happily, my Glampalm arrived already from a walmart seller. The price looked almost too good to be true, so I was nervous about it.

BroomHilda
December 19th, 2016, 05:18 AM
just found two bottles of medium intensity at ebay. But I already went with Qod max!

Could those of you who had the Goldwell treatment post a before and after photo?

Upside Down
December 19th, 2016, 07:38 AM
Honestly, I'd wait for strong if you are already investing in big bottles. I don't know what you have, but I did experiment with medium, and honestly I'd not use that again. You flatiron your hair the same, but get less smoothing, or so it was in my case.

As for before/after, I am having trouble finding a solid before pic because I changed phones. But do a search for "upside down" in the thread and you can see my previous application because I airdried once and took a photo back then. You can kinda see my natural texture in my siggy.

After my last application I only have flatironed pics but that does you no good for comparison :)

BroomHilda
December 20th, 2016, 04:27 AM
I ve been using f/hyde treatments for 3 years, so I had pretty much straight results(1c-2a) on my natural 3a curls.


After 3 years of growing natural I decided to give another try to the new formulas. I went through the key ingredients of the goldwell treatment and found similar compounds in qod max prime (glyoxyloyl carbocysteine and glyoxyloyl keratin amino acids) which are 2nd and 3rd in the list.
Goldwell has glyoxylic acid as second ingredient, so I figured I should get similar results
It cost me 155 EU for the whole 1L bottle.


What is your airdried curl pattern after the treatment?
From your signature photo I see we have similar natural patterns.

What is your current length?

Upside Down
December 20th, 2016, 08:28 AM
Here you go, although this was my second application. I didn't have the energy to airdry after the third application.

I am at waist. But this is where I maintain, so I just chopped after keratin last two times. I figure the ends will kinda offer some kind of protection. Maybe not, I have no idea, it's just how I do it.

And I would also recommend, if you have the length for it, try scalp only washing. It has stretched applications by 2 months for me.

I don't know if you can use Kerasilk with only one bottle. It comes in two bottles, one is "smooth" and other "shape" and you are supposed to mix it 50:50.

That is how I do it, and how instructions say.... :shrug:


Alex I know. It really is expensive and the interesting thing is the big bittle should last like ten or twenty years.

Maybe you can irder single application bottles from europe?

I got big bottles. I did my second treatment. It is a new formulation and I am happy with it. The only thing I notice is that smell is less present than with the old one.

Airdried:

http://i1067.photobucket.com/albums/u439/mackanaopacka/Public/67A61263-17E5-4957-B213-519C3D280639_zpsflca9t6f.jpg

BroomHilda
December 20th, 2016, 12:12 PM
I don't know if you can use Kerasilk with only one bottle. It comes in two bottles, one is "smooth" and other "shape" and you are supposed to mix it 50:50.

That is how I do it, and how instructions say.... :shrug:


If you read the ingredients carefully you will find that the key ingredient is in the "shape" bottle. The other bottle is pretty much just a conditioner.
It;s nice to have options, but in my opinion selling 2 bottles separetely is only a marketing thing.


Here are a few good reads to understand how these treatmets work:

http://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/formulating/category/haircare/231181731.html
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/263393131_Formaldehyde_replacement_with_glyoxylic_ acid_in_semipermanent_hair_straightening_A_new_and _multidisciplinary_investigation
http://www.midwestscc.org/blog2/wp-content/uploads/presentations/Teamworks2012NonFormaldehydeSmoothing.pdf

Upside Down
December 20th, 2016, 03:00 PM
That's ok. I choose to trust the manufacturer. I hope it works good for you! Let us know :)