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Panth
January 18th, 2015, 03:25 PM
It's hard to get a tape measure around the base of a ponytail and even when you try wrapping a piece of string then measuring that, it can be pretty tricky to measure your ponytail. I came up with this method:

1 ) Get some yarn - thicker stuff, as used for knitting, is best. It should be fairly strong (e.g. not single ply) and non-fuzzy.
2 ) Cut a length about 20" long.
3 ) Make a slip knot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dENvo4huOe0), with each tails being at least 6" long.
4 ) Using a hairband, make a ponytail that contains all of your hair.
5 ) Slip the enlarged slip knot loop over your ponytail as if it was a hairband and place it above the hairband, between the hairband and scalp.
6 ) Tighten the slip knot loop as much as possible by pulling the relevant tail.
7 ) Secure the tightened slip knot by doing a "granny knot (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZ3_Nf_4EOc)" or similar with the two tails.
8 ) Carefully, slide the hairband and the yarn off the ponytail. Curlies may need to very carefully cut the yarn off and therefore may need assistance for this bit.
9 ) Cut the slip knot loop once to open it, if you haven't already.
10 ) Measure the length of the slip knot loop, pulling it tight if the yarn is stretchy. This is your ponytail circumference.

Remember, ponytail area, not circumference is proportional to the amount of hairs you have. So, if using this to monitor hair loss, a halving in your circumference is generally considerably more than a halving in the number of hairs. (You can use pi to work this out. Circumference = pi*radius*2. Area = pi*squared radius.)

EDIT:: For the same reason, if you can't get all of your hair into one ponytail you can't just make two ponytails and add the circumferences together. You must calculate the area of each of the two ponytails, add that together, then calculate the circumference from the sum of the two areas. You can use an online calculator (http://math.about.com/library/blcirclecalculator.htm) to get area if you find that tricky. See comment #6 for a diagram of why.

EDIT2:: If your hair is curly, or if you otherwise find it difficult to slip the yarn loop off your ponytail, consider measuring a side ponytail. This way, you can use a mirror and clip the loop off yourself, without needing to rely on a helper.

Aleahcim
January 18th, 2015, 03:33 PM
Thank you. I will have to give this a try sometime. Now I need to see if my measurement is accurate.

Seeshami
January 18th, 2015, 03:37 PM
I have never actually measured. I guessed it and changed it when people told me my hair was thicker then that

Hotrox
January 18th, 2015, 10:12 PM
Oh, what a good idea! I've never measured mine as never thought I could do it with any accuracy, this method sounds much better and more potential for consistency I think :applause:

mamaherrera
January 18th, 2015, 10:59 PM
I have a question. .. all the circumference/area stuff made my head go wonky. My daughter has a 4.25 inch pony and me, 3.75 inch. circumference wise, I'm not that far from here, %-age wise, but doing area, it separates us by a lot more hairs. Plus, that equation stuff, does that take into consideration the different thicknesses in hairs?? Probably not, because a fine-haired lady with a 3 inch pony and a coarsie with a 3 in ch pony, even though equation comes out to equal, they don't have the same amount of hairs. I currently measure mine, fairly tight, but not so tight that I will bend hairs, I figure it's the same idea of measuring as when you do your waist measurement for a dress, you don't want it so tight that your body can't breath, hairs are plastered into each other, but you just want it adjusted to the "fitted" size, where it's snug, it seems to work for me. But here's my question:

they say the "average" person has 100,000 hairs, so what measurement would be the "average" person??? the 2" measurement, 3, 4??? Just curious as to what a 100,000 hair-person's ponytail measures, just to get an idea of how many hairs I might have. Cuz if a 4" in ponytail has 100,000 hairs, I have very little hairs, then compared to them! When I was pregnant, no shedding, my hair slowly raised from 3.75 to 3.9 inches, so that's quite a bit of extra hairs, not new pores, just ones that were sticking around, so technically that would be my actual number of hairs, when they all stay on my head at one time (no shedding) It didn't make it look any thicker, no one notices, my part didn't get any tighter, or any difference at all noticed, except because I meausred. Otherwise, I would have never noticed the 'extra' hairs. Good thing, as now 12 months postpartum, I've dropped back to normal ponytail!

Panth
January 19th, 2015, 01:27 AM
I have a question. .. all the circumference/area stuff made my head go wonky. My daughter has a 4.25 inch pony and me, 3.75 inch. circumference wise, I'm not that far from here, %-age wise, but doing area, it separates us by a lot more hairs. Plus, that equation stuff, does that take into consideration the different thicknesses in hairs?? Probably not, because a fine-haired lady with a 3 inch pony and a coarsie with a 3 in ch pony, even though equation comes out to equal, they don't have the same amount of hairs. I currently measure mine, fairly tight, but not so tight that I will bend hairs, I figure it's the same idea of measuring as when you do your waist measurement for a dress, you don't want it so tight that your body can't breath, hairs are plastered into each other, but you just want it adjusted to the "fitted" size, where it's snug, it seems to work for me. But here's my question:

they say the "average" person has 100,000 hairs, so what measurement would be the "average" person??? the 2" measurement, 3, 4??? Just curious as to what a 100,000 hair-person's ponytail measures, just to get an idea of how many hairs I might have. Cuz if a 4" in ponytail has 100,000 hairs, I have very little hairs, then compared to them! When I was pregnant, no shedding, my hair slowly raised from 3.75 to 3.9 inches, so that's quite a bit of extra hairs, not new pores, just ones that were sticking around, so technically that would be my actual number of hairs, when they all stay on my head at one time (no shedding) It didn't make it look any thicker, no one notices, my part didn't get any tighter, or any difference at all noticed, except because I meausred. Otherwise, I would have never noticed the 'extra' hairs. Good thing, as now 12 months postpartum, I've dropped back to normal ponytail!

The cross-sectional area of the ponytail doesn't account for the actual number of hairs, only the proportion. So, if all other parameters (i.e. hair strand thickness) stay the same, i.e. if you're measuring the same person through times of hair loss, you will have a more accurate representation of the hairloss. As you quite rightly point out, different people have different hair strand thicknesses and so this cannot be used to compare the number of hairs on different people's heads.

Circumference is not proportional to the number of hairs. (E.g. measure your ponytail. Then, split your hair in half and measure the ponytail made by each half. If you add the two circumferences from the two halves you will not get the same number as the circumference of the whole. You can also look at how the circumference changes as you alter a shape. It's the same principle as this (imagine each [] is a square):

[][]
[][] has an area of 4 squares and a circumference of 8 sides

[][][][] is made of the same number of squares (and thus has the same area) but has a circumference of 10 sides

[][] [][] is 2 separate bits made of the same number of squares (and thus in total has the same area) but has a total circumference of 12 sides

[][] is half the number of squares of the original shape (and thus half the area), but has a circumference of 6 sides (i.e. more than half of the original shape's circumference)

Because we're talking about circles (ponytails), not squares, and because the circumference depends upon the area in a non-linear manner (i.e. it's not just "multiply circumference by this number to get the area"), you have to use the pi calculations to get from one to the other. Or, you could just use an online calculator (http://math.about.com/library/blcirclecalculator.htm) if you find the maths tricky.

~~~

As for your other question, I'm not sure how the "average of 100,000 hairs" was calculated or if it maybe is a myth. Even if you know your ponytail circumference/area, you can't know the exact number of hairs you have as the calculation would require you to also know the cross-sectional area of your average hair shaft (i.e. F-->C, in specifics). Also, no one has identical hair density over their whole scalp, or identical hair shaft thickness either. (E.g. wispy, finer stuff at the nape and temples, etc.)

As for with thickness gain, you're right - you are not gaining "pores" (actually: hair follicles). What is happening is that a greater proportion of your hairs are in the anagen (hair growing) phase and less in the catagen (transition) and telogen (resting) phases of the hair cycle, where hair is not grown. Likewise, pregnancy prolongs anagen (so the follicles that should have cycled into catagen/telogen don't), increasing the proportion of follicles in that phase (and thus the proportion of follicles that are actively making hair at any one time).

Panth
January 19th, 2015, 01:45 AM
I have never actually measured. I guessed it and changed it when people told me my hair was thicker then that

Please consider it. I know it might not seem like much, but it would do a fair bit for us finer hair folks if the thicker hair folks measured accurately. There is nothing more disheartening than having a 2" (or less) ponytail and having people with what looks like 3-4" ponytails posting on "Thin hair" threads or people with approx. 3.75-4.5" ponytails saying "here's my hair, it's about average".

(Not that I'm saying that you do this. :flower: But having more thick haired folks with accurately-measured hair would help to demonstrate that (unlike what you might think from browsing the photo threads) that hair isn't average.)

lapushka
January 19th, 2015, 06:17 AM
I just hope someone is there to help me out to measure. My mom last measured my circ for me. I just think it is the easiest, but if you have no one around Panth's method is nice!

Panth
January 19th, 2015, 11:10 AM
I just hope someone is there to help me out to measure. My mom last measured my circ for me. I just think it is the easiest, but if you have no one around Panth's method is nice!

I have my husband to help, but I have the suspicion that he's not very good at taking accurate measurements...

Beborani
January 19th, 2015, 11:56 AM
I no longer measure ponytail--will explain in the next para--but when I did I made side ponytail and looked in the mirror while holding the tape. Your method can be adapted to this even for curlies who can slide or cut the yarn themselves--I am not sure I would be able to trust a helper to cut!

Having said that, I find ponytail measurement to be unreliable indicator of hair gain--yes, I am in a unique position of gaining thickness slowly over the last four years after several years(decades) of hair loss. I do not have any measurement of pre-rogaine pony as my preoccupation back then was to comb over bald areas and not really worry about quality of hair. Once I started Rogaine and found it to be working I did google search on average thickness etc and may have found lhc or similar site where I saw ponytail measurement as one method and when I did it was tiny--I recall circumference was pencil sized which slowly increased to dime sized--that felt like major achievement. I decided to grow my hair long and after two years of using minoxidil joined lhc at which point I measured it as 2.5 inches or so. A year later I thought I reached 3 inches but after that it pretty much remained constant or even decrease a little even while all other indicators--gaps filling in, parting getting narrower, increased weight while wet and then dry, amount of conditioner needed to cowash, ability to braid, feel of bun size pointed towards increased density. I suspect I got better at tightening the measuring tape and also more confident in my hair thickness that I was willing to tighten it. At this point I decided not to measure my ponytail and just enjoy the hair I have. I am Indian and my hair thickenss during teens years was the envy of the neighborhood, so I assume it was in the range of iii and few photographs I have confirm that. But currently even though my scalp seems to be mostly full ponytail is "just" under 3 inches. It may increase abruptly when all the hair reach it--may take a year or two but until then any measurement I report will be misleading.

I will try this yarn method one of these days and use that as baseline--I can save the yarn too to compare to thickness in a year--that will be useful!

meteor
January 19th, 2015, 12:11 PM
^ Beborani, congratulations on your massive hair regrowth! :happydance:
I'm curious, did you stop using Rogaine/minoxidil after some time? Or are you still using it?
The reason I'm asking is that when I've read about this the claim was that this treatment only works for as long as it's being used.

Interesting stuff about how to measure properly, Panth! :D
(Can't do it at the moment though, since I don't have any yarn and don't know how to do those slip/granny knots...)

Beborani
January 19th, 2015, 12:23 PM
Meteor, no I have not stopped, partly because of that worry that it will all disappear and also partly due to greed--I am steadily gaining more hair--I want as full a head of hair as possible at least once before I get too old (youth was wasted on me--I did not care for my hair then!:). But I doubt I will lose ALL of the gain if I stop as I have seen long dead/dormant follicles revive growing thick terminal hair--these seem to be here to stay unless some other illness causes them to fall. But it is also supposed to extend anagen phase--I will probably lose that advantage and lose some hair, but I am not willing to test this theory yet.

meteor
January 19th, 2015, 12:32 PM
^ Thank you very much, Beborani! :flower: That's really great information! :D
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think minoxidil is one of the very, very few (if not the only?) products that have been scientifically proven to combat hair loss, so it's definitely very interesting.)

StellaKatherine
January 19th, 2015, 12:41 PM
Measurring only makes me 1. hate my hair 2. feel depressed about my hair. So no more measuring for me , except for the lenght ;)

mamaherrera
January 19th, 2015, 12:48 PM
No and I've gotta say for the person who just posted above me, calculating the area is worse, as if you do the calculations, you see that even if you compare to 3.75" to a 4" ponytail, and you say, "hey it's only .25" difference", it's a bigger difference in area. And the reason i ask about the 100,000 average thing, is because at least "if we knew" for example, that a 3" pony correlated to 100,000 hairs, it would give the other measurements a way to at least estimate, or say, wow, I have about 200,000 or so, it would never give you an answer, but a guesstimate.

And to Beborani, you are totally right, ponytails don't get/show increase immediately. When I quit shedding during pregnancy, there was no increase until two months postpartum because it takes time to get there. But at least for me, I know that if you have hair decrease, the ponytail will show that immediately because those hairs just aren't there to fill in space. So for me, to see my ponytail stay at the same measurement assures me that I'm ok for now. it's a good way to monitor and yes Panth, it's very nice for people to measure because I do try and find "hair twins" but if their ii or iii is just a guesstimate, then we're not for sure, and it's hard to judge by pics, because I'm a definite ii, but my hair can look like many iii's in pictures, and I think, how can that be!

lapushka
January 19th, 2015, 12:52 PM
it's a good way to monitor and yes Panth, it's very nice for people to measure because I do try and find "hair twins" but if their ii or iii is just a guesstimate, then we're not for sure, and it's hard to judge by pics, because I'm a definite ii, but my hair can look like many iii's in pictures, and I think, how can that be!

I'm thinking in part because curly hair usually is *very* voluminous-looking.

mamaherrera
January 19th, 2015, 01:30 PM
no and so true, but still, now I wonder, everyone on here has a ii o iii o i on their stats, but did they really measure or just pick one?




I'm thinking in part because curly hair usually is *very* voluminous-looking.

lapushka
January 19th, 2015, 04:57 PM
no and so true, but still, now I wonder, everyone on here has a ii o iii o i on their stats, but did they really measure or just pick one?

Well, I can only speak for myself, but I (well mom) measured. :)

mamaherrera
January 19th, 2015, 05:51 PM
yes, I know, me too, but there's no way for us to know who and who not, I just honestly assumed everyone had measured!

Beborani
January 19th, 2015, 06:08 PM
People may have measured but as I wrote my initial measurements were probably not accurate at all because of my own personal biases--it is hard to be objective when it is about you. Panth has devised a method that allows you to bypass that and more importantly have a standard way that everyone measures--a few thick haired folks need to volunteer first to test it--then perhaps these instructions can be given to newcomers.

On the other hand lower number can create self esteem issues such as Stellacatherine pointed out and that is not really the goal of this board--she has great hair--what difference does it make if it is i ii or iii.

Beborani
January 19th, 2015, 06:20 PM
^ Thank you very much, Beborani! :flower: That's really great information! :D
(Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think minoxidil is one of the very, very few (if not the only?) products that have been scientifically proven to combat hair loss, so it's definitely very interesting.)

I think more products may have promise (glaucoma medication for example) but this has undergone some clinical trials and has been tested for safety and approved by FDA. Clinical trials dont go beyond first few months--for a while I was worried I might get too much hair (so much so that it depletes my body of nutrition)--so I have my own method of monitoring density which is based on looking at follicles with high resolution camera and measuring distance between them--there is published data on high/medium and low density (transplant surgeons need this information) that is reliable. Based on this I have stopped applying minoxidil to some parts of my scalp--going over those regions perhaps once in few weeks for insurance.

Panth
January 20th, 2015, 11:33 AM
I no longer measure ponytail--will explain in the next para--but when I did I made side ponytail and looked in the mirror while holding the tape. Your method can be adapted to this even for curlies who can slide or cut the yarn themselves--I am not sure I would be able to trust a helper to cut!

Having said that, I find ponytail measurement to be unreliable indicator of hair gain--yes, I am in a unique position of gaining thickness slowly over the last four years after several years(decades) of hair loss. I do not have any measurement of pre-rogaine pony as my preoccupation back then was to comb over bald areas and not really worry about quality of hair. Once I started Rogaine and found it to be working I did google search on average thickness etc and may have found lhc or similar site where I saw ponytail measurement as one method and when I did it was tiny--I recall circumference was pencil sized which slowly increased to dime sized--that felt like major achievement. I decided to grow my hair long and after two years of using minoxidil joined lhc at which point I measured it as 2.5 inches or so. A year later I thought I reached 3 inches but after that it pretty much remained constant or even decrease a little even while all other indicators--gaps filling in, parting getting narrower, increased weight while wet and then dry, amount of conditioner needed to cowash, ability to braid, feel of bun size pointed towards increased density. I suspect I got better at tightening the measuring tape and also more confident in my hair thickness that I was willing to tighten it. At this point I decided not to measure my ponytail and just enjoy the hair I have. I am Indian and my hair thickenss during teens years was the envy of the neighborhood, so I assume it was in the range of iii and few photographs I have confirm that. But currently even though my scalp seems to be mostly full ponytail is "just" under 3 inches. It may increase abruptly when all the hair reach it--may take a year or two but until then any measurement I report will be misleading.

I will try this yarn method one of these days and use that as baseline--I can save the yarn too to compare to thickness in a year--that will be useful!

Good point about making side-ponytails. That would eliminate the problem of needing a helper to clip the yarn loop. Good if you live alone or if you don't trust anyone to have steady enough hands. Congrats on your hair growth - that's fantastic.

I wonder if using a yarn loop could also help with compressibility, as it is easier to torque a slip knot to get tight (and thus, maybe more likely consistent) compression?


Interesting stuff about how to measure properly, Panth! :D
(Can't do it at the moment though, since I don't have any yarn and don't know how to do those slip/granny knots...)

Well, I don't know about "properly". I just thought it'd be interesting to see if people find this easier and less error-prone than trying to wrap a tape measure around a ponytail that's behind your head... O_O As for the knots, I linked to Youtube videos.


Measurring only makes me 1. hate my hair 2. feel depressed about my hair. So no more measuring for me , except for the lenght ;)

I know the feeling, StellaKatherine. :flower: I certainly wouldn't suggest that everyone must measure their ponytails! However, perhaps people who prefer not to measure might keep their thickness classifier blank (blank is an option in the dropdown menu on your "Edit Profile" page). This would help people who are looking for hair twins, etc. to not get confused by a guessed or old measure.


No and I've gotta say for the person who just posted above me, calculating the area is worse, as if you do the calculations, you see that even if you compare to 3.75" to a 4" ponytail, and you say, "hey it's only .25" difference", it's a bigger difference in area.

This is exactly why, IMO, calculating average is better. It gives you a bigger number, but it is a more accurate measure of what's going on. Because hairloss that causes your ponytail to decrease from 4" to 3" results in a loss of about 44% of your area (i.e. of your hair), but ponytail decrease from 2" to 1" is a loss of about 75% of your area. Yes, that's damned scary. Yes, it's upsetting. However, it is a more accurate description of the problem. And considering that a lot of hairloss is medical (vitamin deficiencies, hormone imbalances, etc.), if you are armed with the most accurate possible description of your problem then maybe you're more likely to convince your doctor that, e.g. yes, your ferritin is technically just within the normal range but that doesn't mean that you aren't deficient.


On the other hand lower number can create self esteem issues such as Stellacatherine pointed out and that is not really the goal of this board--she has great hair--what difference does it make if it is i ii or iii.

As I said to StellaCatherine, perhaps those who prefer not to measure could leave that stat blank on their profile, to help people looking for hair twins, etc.

I absolutely agree that hair should not be ranked on thickness. Hair can be beautiful (or, indeed, damaged or unflatteringly styled) at any thickness, as with any length. We don't have much hair length elitism on the LHC. However, there sadly does seem to be a bit of a culture against thin hair. I suspect this is in part an echo of the distress experienced by people who have had thick hair and are trying to cope with hair loss. However, I do wish that thin hair would be recognised as being just as capable of beauty as thick hair. I also wish that thin haired people would feel more open and able to participate, e.g. in the show us your braid and show us your bun threads.

I also think that by encouraging people with average and thicker hair to accurately measure their hair, it will also help people to recognise if and when their hair is thicker than average, which may prevent some of the comments that thinner haired people find upsetting (e.g. ii/iiis saying their hair is "about average" or "too thin"). Also, maybe, by providing a method that is both generally easier, and easier to get a compact measurement, curlies (who are often in the upper thickness range) might find it easier to get accurate measurements. This would be great, too!

cat11
April 25th, 2015, 07:08 AM
lol im kind of afraid to find out what mine is because I dont want to be dissapointed at it not being as thick as I thought. How silly of me...

Linguaphilia
April 25th, 2015, 07:29 AM
I always use two mirrors to look at the tape around my ponytail. One standing mirror, and one that I hold in my hand. Isn't that accurate enough?

Panth
April 25th, 2015, 07:51 AM
I always use two mirrors to look at the tape around my ponytail. One standing mirror, and one that I hold in my hand. Isn't that accurate enough?

If it's working for you, then great.

I didn't mean for this to be the One True Way, but rather as a suggestion that should work well for most situations and hairtypes - e.g. curlies who can find it difficult to wrap the tape around the ponytail, people who need to use helpers but whose helpers don't really get what exactly where they're supposed to measure or how tight, etc.

KellyZoe
May 7th, 2015, 02:08 AM
I measured tonight using your yarn technique, and it feels much more accurate to me personally than when I used the tape measure behind my head. Thank you for this idea Panth. :)

tigereye
May 7th, 2015, 05:18 AM
I just use a string and a pen - tie string around ponytail, hold in place and mark with pen, then untie and measure.

I did it the other day and found to my surprise that I've gained back the inch I lost from stress and medication last year. It'll be a while before my ends see the difference though. And I agree, it's important to know your real thickness - when I was off sailing, one girl started talking about my "thin" hair - my circumference was at least 3" at the time, so slap-bang in the middle of average. Now I'm 4". A lot of people don't seem to understand the difference between thin and fine.

Silverbrumby
May 7th, 2015, 12:07 PM
I make my poor husband do it! A lot! :p
I have my husband to help, but I have the suspicion that he's not very good at taking accurate measurements...

Silverbrumby
May 7th, 2015, 12:20 PM
Thanks for all the information Bedorani. I did try minoxidil for my heavy shedding and hair thinning but got the dreaded MASSIVE hair shed with use which went on for about 6 weeks and the god awful eye bags which some people suffer from when using it. With those two things going on 1. massive shed 2. aged 10 years with use, I gave up on the minoxidil. My pony tail went from 2.75 to 2.4 at best after use and I know it might have rebounded if I kept it up. I just couldn't deal with the eyes. Man, I even had a woman at work tell me all about eye bag removal surgery, that's how bad I looked.

Fast forward 2 years and I'm back to over 3 inches and less shedding. I achieved that with the use of a dermal roller. It's literally a 'pain' to use but it worked for me without the side effects of minoxidil.

I'm going to try the other measuring method and my ponytail does now vary but it feels better, heavier and I'm using that more as the gauge now than a number.



I think more products may have promise (glaucoma medication for example) but this has undergone some clinical trials and has been tested for safety and approved by FDA. Clinical trials dont go beyond first few months--for a while I was worried I might get too much hair (so much so that it depletes my body of nutrition)--so I have my own method of monitoring density which is based on looking at follicles with high resolution camera and measuring distance between them--there is published data on high/medium and low density (transplant surgeons need this information) that is reliable. Based on this I have stopped applying minoxidil to some parts of my scalp--going over those regions perhaps once in few weeks for insurance.

lapushka
May 7th, 2015, 12:46 PM
I think I measured a few times in a year, and stuck to the minimal number. My mom measured 4.5 and 4.25 (for me). So I stuck with 4.25. I think it depends on the seasons as well. I mean. I'm not going to keep on measuring. :shrug:

missrandie
May 7th, 2015, 02:06 PM
Mine was measured by taking the pony tail of hair from my big chop in 2012 and measuring that. mother all the hair cut off was in there, but most of it was. That put me at just under 3". Once I have enough length for a pony again, I will re measure.

Nadine <3
May 7th, 2015, 03:11 PM
I measured once. I think I have an inch and a half so I'm definitely an i. I just used some yarn, wrapped it around and marked the spots with my thumbs and slid it off.