Help me troubleshoot my hair.

[Robot Ninja]

So, I had a good routine going for the last year but in the past few months it hasn't been working so well. My hair is limp, flyaway, and tangly. I've gone from 1c/2a to about a 1b. The only time it looks nice is right after I dye it (and clarify beforehand); I had nice silky hair (albeit a bit straighter than I'd like, but at least it wasn't flat and limp) for a week, and yesterday I washed it and it's back to the tangliness and flyaways.

I've been CO-washing and stretching washes as long as possible, and coconut oiling while it's damp. Recently I switched to a coconut oil/EVOO mix but it doesn't seem to make any difference. It doesn't feel weighed down or anything, actually the opposite, but I don't have fine hair so I can put a lot of stuff on it without weighing it down. Could it be that it's not getting clean enough? Using diluted shampoo doesn't seem to make any difference. Overmoisturized? A problem with the super-dry air in my apartment (but then, why would it be nice when it's been clarified and is dryer than ever)?

Help me LHC Kenobi, you're my only hope.

[meteor]

You say you CO-wash and stretch washes and use coconut oil and EVOO and diluted shampoo. Over time that can lead to hair that needs to be clarified.
You also say that the only time your hair looks is is right after you dye it and clarify beforehand, so I see 3 possibilities why it's better after dye:
1) your hair liked being clarified;
2) your hair liked the deep conditioner which comes with the dye (for example, due to its acidity, silicones or other ingredients, ...);
3) combination of the two above.

I'd clarify and do an SMT or some other good conditioning treatment. See how it works. And if it feels a bit better, it might take more than one session to get it back to normal, if that was the problem.

[wilderwein]

I agree with meteor AND also a possibility for your hair condition may be the season too, winter time tends to act weird on hair

[catasa]

Sorry that you are having trouble, it is so annoying when things that worked before do not work anymore...

Anyway, if it was me I would test a protein treatment (after clarifying). It sounds from your description like your hair may be overmoisturized, or else having trouble using the moisture you provide, and from what I have heard protein also helps the hair actually absorbing more moisture. Sounds paradoxical, I know (and I don´t really know if it is correct) but then what isn´t paradoxical in hair reactions and treatments...?

I have to warn you though that I may be feeling this because I did a protein treatment myself yesterday and got soft and shiny waves/spirals back after a period with frizzy, straighter hair. I have done protein treatments previously without even using a moisturizing treatment after, just my usual drops of mineral oil leave in, and had really good results, so if you want to really test your hair´s reaction that could be an idea. Or just do something moisturizing afterwards as is usually recommended and see where that leaves you.

Otherwise maybe just clarify without coloring and see how that works? Clarifying usually helps my hair (again often best without anything other than mineral oil leave in drops afterwards) and since you CO-wash it may be especially important of course.

Good luck! :flower:

[Robot Ninja]

You say you CO-wash and stretch washes and use coconut oil and EVOO and diluted shampoo. Over time that can lead to hair that needs to be clarified.
You also say that the only time your hair looks is is right after you dye it and clarify beforehand, so I see 3 possibilities why it's better after dye:
1) your hair liked being clarified;
2) your hair liked the deep conditioner which comes with the dye (for example, due to its acidity, silicones or other ingredients, ...);
3) combination of the two above.

I guess I should have mentioned I use deposit dye. There is no conditioner that comes with it.



Otherwise maybe just clarify without coloring and see how that works? Clarifying usually helps my hair (again often best without anything other than mineral oil leave in drops afterwards) and since you CO-wash it may be especially important of course.


I've only washed once since clarifying, so I don't think there would be much build-up. Clarifying without coloring defeats the whole purpose of coloring my hair, and I'm not giving up coloring my hair.

A protein treatment might help, since my hair likes protein, but the stretch test doesn't seem to suggest that I need it.

[furnival]

I guess I should have mentioned I use deposit dye. There is no conditioner that comes with it.
Which deposit dye do you use? If it's Manic Panic or Directions (maybe others I'm not familiar with too) the dye is held in a conditioner base and if you leave it on for a while you are getting a conditioning treatment as well as dye. My hair always feels amazing after dyeing with a deposit-only dye. :) Maybe a deep conditioning treatment might have the same effect?

[meteor]

How is your water? Do you think it's hard and there might be a need to try a chelating shampoo?
And you could always experiment with bringing back the products that your hair functioned better with in the past.
Also, how is the seasonal weather going? Depending on where you live, if you get cold and dry winters, you may really benefit from a humidifier.



Anyway, if it was me I would test a protein treatment (after clarifying). It sounds from your description like your hair may be overmoisturized, or else having trouble using the moisture you provide, and from what I have heard protein also helps the hair actually absorbing more moisture. Sounds paradoxical, I know (and I don´t really know if it is correct) but then what isn´t paradoxical in hair reactions and treatments...?

catasa, I really agree. Hydrolyzed proteins are humectants, so they can definitely help hair hold onto more moisture.

Depending on the size of proteins, they can either be small enough to penetrate (like hydrolyzed keratin or soy) or they can be bigger and have film-forming properties (like hydrolyzed wheat or oat), and both functions are helpful for hair, depending on concentrations.
I only have reservations about un-hydrolyzed proteins that are too large and can simply sit on top creating buildup (for example, egg whites) or, arguably, too small to stick to hair for long (amino acids that have a place in leave-ins but probably not so much rinse-out treatments).
It might take some experimentation to find the hydrolyzed protein treatments that work for your individual hair's needs, because proteins size, concentration and of course relative humidity/dew points and other factors matter. Catasa, I'm really happy that you found a protein treatment that works so amazingly well for you! :D

For more, check out Science-y Hair Blog: http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2013/09/more-about-protein.html She has a lot of good information on proteins. :)

[Robot Ninja]

Which deposit dye do you use? If it's Manic Panic or Directions (maybe others I'm not familiar with too) the dye is held in a conditioner base and if you leave it on for a while you are getting a conditioning treatment as well as dye. My hair always feels amazing after dyeing with a deposit-only dye. :) Maybe a deep conditioning treatment might have the same effect?

It's Manic Panic, and yeah, I leave it on all day. Then I use conditioner while I'm rinsing it out, since I find they dye in and of itself isn't conditioning enough after clarifying.


How is your water? Do you think it's hard and there might be a need to try a chelating shampoo?
And you could always experiment with bringing back the products that your hair functioned better with in the past.
Also, how is the seasonal weather going? Depending on where you live, if you get cold and dry winters, you may really benefit from a humidifier.

I have no idea how hard my water is. I live in an old building with crappy old pipes so it might be hard.
In the past, my hair functioned better with the same products I'm using now. The only other product I've used successfully no longer exists.
Yes, it is super-dry in my apartment. Not cold, but dry. I'm not sure if I can afford a humidifier though, and it would have to be one of those cold air ones; it's already way too hot in here.

[meteor]

I have no idea how hard my water is. I live in an old building with crappy old pipes so it might be hard.
In the past, my hair functioned better with the same products I'm using now. The only other product I've used successfully no longer exists.
Yes, it is super-dry in my apartment. Not cold, but dry. I'm not sure if I can afford a humidifier though, and it would have to be one of those cold air ones; it's already way too hot in here.

Dry air is no joke. If you can't get a humidifier, you can put bowls filled with water around your apartment, sometimes steam up your room by opening the door to your shower, and maybe experiment with a "greenhouse effect" treatment (plastic cap on top of a bun) from time to time to trap moisture in your hair. And keep "sealing" moisture with oil after wash.

As for the water concerns, I would experiment with acidic rinses or try a "swimmers" shampoo.

[Robot Ninja]

I have not heard of this "greenhouse effect" treatment before. What do you do, dampen your hair and wrap it in plastic?

[meteor]

^ Yes, pretty much. There are different variations on the theme: adding conditioner to length or not, for example. I think we had a few old LHC threads on this or you could google "GHE (greenhouse effect)" or "baggy method". It's pretty popular in natural kinky-curly hair care. I tried it a couple times, and it did give me immediate moisture boost, but I find it too fussy to persevere... I would use it if there is some desert-like seasonal dryness issue.


ETA: However, I wouldn't recommend it if you have any scalp issues, especially something like seborrheic dermatitis.

[catasa]

How is your water? Do you think it's hard and there might be a need to try a chelating shampoo?
And you could always experiment with bringing back the products that your hair functioned better with in the past.
Also, how is the seasonal weather going? Depending on where you live, if you get cold and dry winters, you may really benefit from a humidifier.



catasa, I really agree. Hydrolyzed proteins are humectants, so they can definitely help hair hold onto more moisture.

Depending on the size of proteins, they can either be small enough to penetrate (like hydrolyzed keratin or soy) or they can be bigger and have film-forming properties (like hydrolyzed wheat or oat), and both functions are helpful for hair, depending on concentrations.
I only have reservations about un-hydrolyzed proteins that are too large and can simply sit on top creating buildup (for example, egg whites) or, arguably, too small to stick to hair for long (amino acids that have a place in leave-ins but probably not so much rinse-out treatments).
It might take some experimentation to find the hydrolyzed protein treatments that work for your individual hair's needs, because proteins size, concentration and of course relative humidity/dew points and other factors matter. Catasa, I'm really happy that you found a protein treatment that works so amazingly well for you! :D
...

Thanks :) I use Joico K-pak reconstructor and it has hydolyzed keratins (and a lot of other things that may be other forms of protein as well, I don´t recognize them). I found it due to recommendations on LHC, it is usually stated as good here and yes, it works well for me most of the times (nothing ever works all the time for my hair...) And also thanks for the link and the clarification about protein and humectants, really good to know!

I also agree about maybe trying chelating. I recently tried L'anza Healing Pure clarifying and chelating shampoo, I was sceptical since there are no regular SLS in it, but I have had nice results the two times I have tried it and hopefully it is a bit milder due to the lack of SLS. I don´t have very hard water anymore though so I can´t really say if it works well for that.

And of course I understand that you don´t want to clarify without colouring since you use deposit-only. I hope you find protein and/or chelating or some other tip useful. Regarding the stretch test I have had good results from protein without the test indicating that I really need it.

[Johannah]

To me, this sounds like you have over-moisturized your hair. I've had the EXACT same thing almost a year ago from oiling and CO-ing. I started using a conditioner with hydrolyzed keratin after every wash and 'softer' protein treatments every once in a while. My hair went back to normal. I still use that conditioner with hydrolyzed keratin because like you said yourself, it moisturizes as well (as a humectant).

[meteor]

I hope you find protein and/or chelating or some other tip useful. Regarding the stretch test I have had good results from protein without the test indicating that I really need it.

I absolutely agree. :agree: The stretch test works on extremes only, and most people need a good combination of strengthening and moisturizing and you can get both of them from the same well-formulated product.
And yes, I think Joico K-pak reconstructor is an excellent protein product, too. :)

[Robot Ninja]

^ Yes, pretty much. There are different variations on the theme: adding conditioner to length or not, for example. I think we had a few old LHC threads on this or you could google "GHE (greenhouse effect)" or "baggy method". It's pretty popular in natural kinky-curly hair care. I tried it a couple times, and it did give me immediate moisture boost, but I find it too fussy to persevere... I would use it if there is some desert-like seasonal dryness issue.


I did a quick google search and it sounds like you need to leave it for a few hours, or overnight, so I'd be using saran wrap over my bun anyway. I can't stand wearing a shower cap for more than an hour or so.

General consensus seems to be that protein might help, so I will try that first, since it won't hurt. I use gelatin because it works and is cheap. Although if anyone can recommend a cone-free conditioner with protein that is fairly cheap, I would probably use protein more often.

[Robot Ninja]

Okay, I slapped on some protein and it seems to have helped somewhat. My hair is wavy again at least. So I'm going to keep using it for a while and hopefully it will go back to normal. Thanks guys.

[meteor]

Yay! Perfect! So happy for your results, Robot Ninja. :D Great plan to keep using protein. :thumbsup:
(And if at some point you overload on proteins, just do a conditioning treatment (with humectants: honey, glycerin, aloe, etc plus occlusives: oils, butters, silicones, etc) and lay off proteins for a while.)

[Robot Ninja]

Yay! Perfect! So happy for your results, Robot Ninja. :D Great plan to keep using protein. :thumbsup:
(And if at some point you overload on proteins, just do a conditioning treatment (with humectants: honey, glycerin, aloe, etc plus occlusives: oils, butters, silicones, etc) and lay off proteins for a while.)

Well, I used the lazy method (dissolved some gelatin and mixed it with conditioner) so I'm getting conditioning out of it anyway. Laziness will probably keep me from overdoing it.
Aren't humectants a bad idea if you have dry air?

[meteor]

Well, I used the lazy method (dissolved some gelatin and mixed it with conditioner) so I'm getting conditioning out of it anyway. Laziness will probably keep me from overdoing it.
Aren't humectants a bad idea if you have dry air?

Oh yes, gelatin in moisturizing conditioner is great! :thumbsup: I know many people do a 2-step thing: gelatin + water, then wash it out, then follow up with conditioner, but I prefer to do it in one shot: gelatin + conditioner + honey + oil(s).

Humectants are only problematic to dry hair if the air is even drier, because in that case they can draw moisture from your hair to themselves. Humectants are generally good for dry hair because they help your hair hold onto moisture better by attracting water and hold onto it. Assuming that you use your humectants in shower (where there is steam) and on wet hair, they certainly will help. (And protein is a humectant too).
Add to that the use of occlusives, like oils (which seal the moisture in), and it's quite a good recipe to help dry hair.

[Johannah]

Okay, I slapped on some protein and it seems to have helped somewhat. My hair is wavy again at least. So I'm going to keep using it for a while and hopefully it will go back to normal. Thanks guys.

I'm happy for you! :flower: