Are sulfates/surfactants really as bad as their reputation?

[CostaRita]

I have curly hair and I have followed the CG method for a few years. I'm just wondering if sulfates (like sodium laureth sulfate, disodium laureth sulfosuccinate, etc). deserve the bad wrap that they get. According to Paula's Choice, pretty much every one except sodium lauryl sulfate is fairly mild.

[lapushka]

Almost all shampoos in the EU only have SLES in them. The only brands that I know have both SLS & SLES are Pantene and Herbal Essences, which is why I like them. I need the harsher cleanse because of SD. I weekly wash and this and the harsh cleansers are great for me. It took a few years to figure out that that was what I needed. If SD does break through, I do need Nizoral, though, to get rid of it. But as far as preventing the bouts from recurring, this is what works.

I would love to go sulfate-free or CO even, but alas. So I solve the brutalness of the shampoo with double conditioning and the LOC method (see signature).

[arr]

I think it depends on the person. If it is a problem for you, your scalp will let you know. You will probably feel itching and irritation. For my scalp it's not a problem. As far as the hair itself, it will probably be fine if followed with a good conditioner. Many of us don't wash the lengths of our hair every time with shampoo anyway, only occasionally. It may also depend on how fine or delicate the hair is. I've always suspected that on the average person it matters very little what one washes their hair with. I think the true culprits for damaging hair are high heat and chemical processes.

[lapushka]

I think the true culprits for damaging hair are high heat and chemical processes.

Yes, I don't think the harsh cleansers "damage" the hair in any way. That's a first, if ever that claim was made!

[spidermom]

Such products are not bad as long as you don't have skin sensitivity. I don't. However, like lapushka, I do get seborrheic dermatitis, which requires keeping scalp both clean and dry.

[Sarahlabyrinth]

I think they could be very drying if used very frequently at full strength: a hair book of mine says

" The first non-soap shampoo was a marketing brainwave: a product to be sold only in hard-water areas. The first women to use these new, wonder shampoos were delighted with the way they fluffed up into mountains of lather and rinsed out clean as a whistle. If their hair began to be dry and split-ended after a time they didn't connect that with the new shampoo, and in any case they were used to having their hair dried and dulled with soap scum.
These new shampoos were easy to make and easy to sell. Before long the whole "civilised" world was using them. They were somewhat improved: diluted, and made rather less ruthless in their action. But they have certainly contributed to hair damage as well as cleanliness, and their use has helped create a "need" for another almost equally profitable product, the conditioner. I have never been able to understand why healthy hair needs a conditioner, except perhaps in a very dry climate, or at the ends of long hair. But as harsh shampoos degrease the hair and scalp and make the hair rough, so conditioners smooth it down again. A beautiful piece of economic logic if you are the seller, but not if you are the buyer." (Shampoo and Scissors A Guide to Healthy and Beautiful Hair" - Elizabeth Francke)

[chen bao jun]

Curly girl here. Very dry hair and scalp naturally. If I use detergent shampoo not only is my hair so dry that it breaks easily but my scalp is so dry flaky and it you that I seem like I have dandruff or worse. For years I used harsh dandruff shampoos to rid myself of this problem which got worse, vicious cycle. I Co wash with occasional clarify ing

[vega]

I've been sulphate free for 2 years since then my curly hair has grown longer and stronger , but I do miss sulphate shampoo my hair just seemed cleaner and fresher for longer , but less tangles using sulphate free

[Baby_doll]

I think that it depends on the person, but the way I see it is that they take out EVERYTHING on your hair. The good the bad and the ugly. And if your have dry scalp and sensative skin like me it's terrible, I'm using wo and sulphates and harsh chemicals where the reason that started me on this, I used to shed like a sink full of hair and now it's barely 15 strands, I'm fairly certain it was the chemicals creating this problem, I was reading something awhile back about how certain sulphates in shampoos when used at full strength it creates chemical burns that people have to be hospitalized for. So yea, they don't work for me in the slightest, they dried out my hair which in turn created damage, however if you have hard water or you just need it that's great, it really depends on the person, ya gotta try stuff out to figure out what you like.

[GetMeToWaist]

All SLES and SLS are drying, its a fact. But alternatives like cocomidapropyl betaine or sodium olefin sulfonate are less drying.

[Panth]

You may find these posts interesting/useful:
Does SLS shampoo break hair? Part one (http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/06/myth-or-fact-sulfate-shampoo-causes.html) and part two (http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/06/myth-or-fact-sulfate-shampoo-breaks.html).
Is SLS an irritant? (http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/06/myth-or-fact-sls-is-irritant.html)
About cocoamidopropyl betaine, one of the most common non-sulphate surfactants. (http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/06/alternatives-to-sulfate-shampoos.html) (Note how it says it is significantly less irritating than SLS, a point glossed/missed in the "Is SLS an irritant?" post.)
A break-down of how harsh/gentle sulphate and non-sulphate surfactants are. (http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2012/06/are-sulfate-free-shampoos-really.html)
A statement from the National Eczema Society, discussing how SLS is contraindicated in eczema and can cause skin-thinning even in people without skin problems. (http://www.eczema.org/aqeous) (Though, note, the experiment did not test whether other surfactants would cause similar thinning as this study was not about shampoo.)

Overall, my opinion is that it's a YMMV thing (as with everything!). People with skin conditions, particularly eczema, should probably avoid sulphates. People with recurrent / chronic seborrheic dermatitis may require the harshness of sulphates to control the yeast growth on their scalp. Everyone else should just experiment and see what products (be they sulphate-based or sulphate-free) work best for them.

The only other related thing is that if you choose to cut out sulphates you need to be reasonably educated about ingredients as you can risk build-up otherwise. This is fairly easy to avoid nowadays as there are 'cones that won't build up (the water-soluble PEG-'cones and the anti-building-up amino-'cones) and sulphate-free surfactants (cocoamidopropyl betaine) that remove even non-water-soluble 'cones as well as sulphates.

[sarahthegemini]

I think it all depends on how your hair/scalp reacts to them. My scalp was absolutely fine with daily use of sulfates but it dried my hair out tremendously. It was only after switching to co-washing that I discovered how wavy I was.

[Wosie]

I have an odd combination skin, being both very dry but not liking the idea of SLS free methods. I can't use Ketoconazol (Nizoral) for long, it dries out my scalp; I can't use SLS free shampoo as my scalp needs to be clean. The only thing which seems to work quite well for me is Head & Shoulders for dry scalps (with almond oil). I truly recommend it, I went through an itchy and scratchy hell this autumn, and this really helped my scalp to heal. :')

For me sulfates are quite drying on my hair, but as I need to use it, I do a CWC wash and try to not let my ends soak in the shampoo too much. :)

[lapushka]

Such products are not bad as long as you don't have skin sensitivity. I don't. However, like lapushka, I do get seborrheic dermatitis, which requires keeping scalp both clean and dry.

Yes, I always make sure to air dry after it comes out of the microfiber turbie towel, but I do rush after about an hour to get my roots dry. I always need to have my scalp dry within a certain amount of time!

[CostaRita]

I do have dry facial skin - I don't know about my scalp. I know that it's not oily, however.

I'm mostly worried about drying out my hair because my hair tends to be drier and frizzier (never oily).

[Annalouise]

I do have dry facial skin - I don't know about my scalp. I know that it's not oily, however.

I'm mostly worried about drying out my hair because my hair tends to be drier and frizzier (never oily).

I tried to post earlier but it didn't come through so I'll try it again. YES, they do dry out the hair. There is NO DOUBT about that.
That is why women have to condition, condition, condition and deep condition and leave in condition....etc.....

If you have fine hair I would definitely say NO to detergents. I used to have straw like ends and split ends when I used detergent shampoos.
However I do have fine hair. Since you have medium hair strands I would say you *might be ok?

It's better to use a gentle shampoo that is soap based in my opinion that has lots of oils in the shampoo to counter the drying effects of the soap. For instance if you go to Aubrey Organics website they show you what shampoos are made for DRY hair. I would stick with one of those or a similar product with gentle coconut based surfactants.

I have MCS (multiple chemical sensitivities) and SLS as well as Cocomidapropyl betaine, give me bad symptoms. To me they are the same: detergents. I don't know why c.b. is touted as more gentle than sulphates. In my experience its not.

Plus you have curly hair so I would stay away from sulphates if I was you.

[tigereye]

It depends on you and your scalp really.
I can't use them since I developed an allergy to some sulphates and sensitivities to some others, but my scalp is also very dry (well, all my skin is dry, really). I make do with cocamidopropyl betaine which doesn't give me the same issues as the others.

[Catatafish]

That was a very informative reply Panth, I enjoyed those articles.

[Panth]

I have MCS (multiple chemical sensitivities) and SLS as well as Cocomidapropyl betaine, give me bad symptoms. To me they are the same: detergents. I don't know why c.b. is touted as more gentle than sulphates. In my experience its not.

Cocoamidopropyl betaine is touted as being more gentle than sulphates as it is significantly less irritating (http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/06/alternatives-to-sulfate-shampoos.html). Some people are sensitive to it, just like with sulphates. Unfortunately, you seem to be one of those people. Doesn't mean that it's not less irritating than sulphates in people who have sensitivities to only sulphates or to neither, though.


That was a very informative reply Panth, I enjoyed those articles.

Thanks. I love that website - SO MUCH really useful, really well-researched and really well presented information.

[renia22]

I have curly hair and I have followed the CG method for a few years. I'm just wondering if sulfates (like sodium laureth sulfate, disodium laureth sulfosuccinate, etc). deserve the bad wrap that they get. According to Paula's Choice, pretty much every one except sodium lauryl sulfate is fairly mild.

I agree with Paula Begoun. I also think it's a red flag when one ingredient gets maligned, and important information is left out like the concentration, what other ingredients are used in the formula to offset irritation and improve effectiveness, how long the product is left on the skin, ph etc. A small percentage of people have an issue with them, but I believe the numbers are smaller than the anti-sulfate campaigns would have us believe.

http://www.paulaschoice.com/expert-advice/beauty-buzz/_/ingredient-scares-that-arent-true

http://www.paulaschoice.com/cosmetic-ingredient-dictionary/definition/sulfates

http://chemistscorner.com/the-12-most-maligned-cosmetic-ingredients/

[Nadine <3]

I use sulfates at every wash. It keeps my scalp happy. I just make sure I condition enough and use a deep treatment if my hair gets dry.

[Annalouise]

I use sulfates at every wash. It keeps my scalp happy. I just make sure I condition enough and use a deep treatment if my hair gets dry.

Zoiks! Your hair isn't that long YET, and I'm warning you, you have FINE hair! If you wash your fine hair with sulphates everyday forget about it!
I'm just giving you a word of caution. I STRONGLY advise you to reconsider your washing methods if you wish to wash daily.
It's not easy to get great lengths with fine hair because its more prone to damage and drying. There is no medulla in fine hair strands. It is much more delicate.

[Annalouise]

Sorry girlfriend, I misread your post, you said "at every wash" not that you washed it "every" day.lol
I'm a dork, forgive me.

But I still think you should step away from the sulphates.:p

[Johannah]

I use them every wash as well. If I don't, I get build-up pretty fast.

[lapushka]

Zoiks! Your hair isn't that long YET, and I'm warning you, you have FINE hair! If you wash your fine hair with sulphates everyday forget about it!
I'm just giving you a word of caution. I STRONGLY advise you to reconsider your washing methods if you wish to wash daily.
It's not easy to get great lengths with fine hair because its more prone to damage and drying. There is no medulla in fine hair strands. It is much more delicate.

I have F hair and my hair is washed with the harshest of cleansers. It's conditioned well afterwards, and that makes up for the stripping and the dryness of the process. I have *no* issues with it. It's difficult to just generalize.

[GetMeToWaist]

I have F hair and my hair is washed with the harshest of cleansers. It's conditioned well afterwards, and that makes up for the stripping and the dryness of the process. I have *no* issues with it. It's difficult to just generalize.

Yes but she's saying washing daily with sulfates not weekly.

[Nadine <3]

Zoiks! Your hair isn't that long YET, and I'm warning you, you have FINE hair! If you wash your fine hair with sulphates everyday forget about it!
I'm just giving you a word of caution. I STRONGLY advise you to reconsider your washing methods if you wish to wash daily.
It's not easy to get great lengths with fine hair because its more prone to damage and drying. There is no medulla in fine hair strands. It is much more delicate.


Sorry girlfriend, I misread your post, you said "at every wash" not that you washed it "every" day.lol
I'm a dork, forgive me.

But I still think you should step away from the sulphates.:p

I've tried other methods (CO washing, and various sulfate free shampoo's) and my hair loved them but my scalp threw a fit. I got mega itchies and my shedding would triple. Sulfates work for me and they keep my scalp happy. My hair is not dry, nor is is damaged so I see no reason to try some more things that my scalp hates when this is working just fine. :shrug:

[TheaEvanda]

I have currently hip length hair and wash once a week with a shampoo containing sodium laureth sulfate as primary detergent. It works quite well for me.
One factor might be that we have liquid stones for water (27°dH) and most other detergents just pack up and go somewhere nicer when they come into contact with our water. My conditioner use is about twice the amount of shampoo I use -a hazelnut size of shampoo and a walnut of conditioner. ;)

As I have been keeping to this "routine" for over 5 years with only occasional forays into alternative detergents like egg yolk (lecithine) and oil/mayonaise conditioning treatments every blue moon or rarer, I doubt that SLES is an extreme cause of hair damage. I shudder to think what kind of soap stone I'd be contending with in my hair when I'd use regular soap like it was mentioned above. I know a lot of people love it, but my wasbasins are usually blind the third day after a thorough cleansing.

There is a perfect detergent for every occasion. I do not think that a detergent itself is bad When used correctly in a well developed formula. Rather, I keep with Paracelsus: everything can be poisonous if the dose is too high.

--Thea (1cFii)

[lapushka]

Yes but she's saying washing daily with sulfates not weekly.

I believe she said every wash, not that she meant daily.

[Nique1202]

My hair will pick up ANYTHING that can cause buildup and hold on to it for dear life, so by day 6-7 it is greasy and waxy-sticky and feels terrible for about four inches out from the roots on every part of my scalp. I tried using a sulfate-free shampoo once and I had to wash again ten minutes later because it still felt waxy and gross. If I were to wash my hair every day, then I might be able to use sulfate-free, but stretching washes for convenience means I need to use not just any sulfate-containing shampoo but something marked as cleansing/clarifying or a "once a week" treatment at every wash (about 5-7 days) and I need to lather it twice, sometimes three times, for it to stop feeling waxy.

I alternate between a very thick moisturizing no-cone conditioner as a leave-in for one wash, and a very coney conditioner intended to protect colour-treated hair just on the length (from the shoulders down) for the next wash. I also oil my hair usually before it's fully dry to help keep that moisture where it needs to be, and sometimes between washes if it starts getting tanglesome. This offsets any dryness that the sulfates might cause, at least as far as I can tell because my hair always looks healthy and shiny to me.

For every hair product, there is a user who needs it desperately.

[Nadine <3]

Yes but she's saying washing daily with sulfates not weekly.

I'm not sure if this was still about me, but I only wash twice a week, not daily. In my opinion it would be better for me to wash daily with sulfates, as apposed to using sulfate free shampoo's that cause massive itching and hair fall. If I used sulfate free, I wouldn't have any hair left to wash. It doesn't work for me.

[lapushka]

I'm not sure if this was still about me, but I only wash twice a week, not daily. In my opinion it would be better for me to wash daily with sulfates, as apposed to using sulfate free shampoo's that cause massive itching and hair fall. If I used sulfate free, I wouldn't have any hair left to wash. It doesn't work for me.

Sulfate free does nothing for me either. It's too mild, go figure. :lol:
And CO certainly doesn't work for me. SD is tricky.

[Nadine <3]

Sulfate free does nothing for me either. It's too mild, go figure. :lol:
And CO certainly doesn't work for me. SD is tricky.


Lets start a sulfate fan club :eyebrows::happydance:

[ARG]

Prior to my getting involved in LHC, I washed my hair with whatever was good smelling at the time. I pretty much bought into all the marketing, so when the sulfate-free trend started, I started doing research, read all the bad rep of sulfates and made the plunge. I now follow my rule of "whatever my scalp/length dictate". It does well 80% of the time with sulfate-free, and I love what the sulfate-free does for my length, but occasionally I'll notice a touch of itchiness or just general build up, and I have no qualms in addressing that with a sulfate shampoo, but the entire week after I wash my hair with sulfate shampoo, my length is fluffy and light and not easily styled. A good heavy oiling tends to help that, and bring it back into balance until my next sulfate-free wash.

Just do whats best for you and your scalp. If CG works for you, then great! If you want to see if the grass is greener and it isn't don't hesitate to go back to what you know works, because in the end no one has your scalp/hair/body chemistry.

[Annalouise]

There are certainly many well touted shampoos that are sulphate shampoos. I'm not saying they are not effective. I'm just saying that if you have FINE hair, then go easy on the sulphate because everytime you use it you basically strip all the oils off your hair. Which is bad for the hair.

Now if you are piling product onto your hair then you need a clarifying shampoo.

But the trouble is, with fine hair. Fast forward a decade. You're piling on product and your using sulphates to take them off two times a week.
I would like to know what that fine hair looks like. Because in my head I'm imagining very dry and split ends around waist.

But you can cover up dry ends with product.

Let me ask you this: lets say you sulphate your hair. Now, DON'T put ANY conditioner on it. NOTHING. No oil, nothing. Let your hair dry.

Now you will see what sulphates are doing for real. Don't mask it with heavy oils and conditioners.

So if you fast forward that ten years.... take away all the product and you'll be left with dry ends with splits.

I'm willing to bet money on it. But that is for FINE hair only.

And I want to add one thing, some people wrongly type their hair as fine when its actually medium.
I'm talking about FINE hair. Which is hair that when you pull a strand through your finger tips, you will not be able
to feel part or all of it to the touch, it is THAT thin.

If you're talking about medium hair then MAYBE you can go 10 years with sulphates 2x a week and not have damage.

Am I taking crazy pills? I don't think so? But I do have FINE hair and 20 years of trying to get it be healthy at waist.

Fine hair is serious business. I really wonder if we're talking about the same hair type.

[CostaRita]

My hair is different thicknesses. Some strands are thick and dark and others are fine and light!

[Nadine <3]

There are certainly many well touted shampoos that are sulphate shampoos. I'm not saying they are not effective. I'm just saying that if you have FINE hair, then go easy on the sulphate because everytime you use it you basically strip all the oils off your hair. Which is bad for the hair.

Now if you are piling product onto your hair then you need a clarifying shampoo.

But the trouble is, with fine hair. Fast forward a decade. You're piling on product and your using sulphates to take them off two times a week.
I would like to know what that fine hair looks like. Because in my head I'm imagining very dry and split ends around waist.

But you can cover up dry ends with product.

Let me ask you this: lets say you sulphate your hair. Now, DON'T put ANY conditioner on it. NOTHING. No oil, nothing. Let your hair dry.

Now you will see what sulphates are doing for real. Don't mask it with heavy oils and conditioners.

So if you fast forward that ten years.... take away all the product and you'll be left with dry ends with splits.

I'm willing to bet money on it. But that is for FINE hair only.

And I want to add one thing, some people wrongly type their hair as fine when its actually medium.
I'm talking about FINE hair. Which is hair that when you pull a strand through your finger tips, you will not be able
to feel part or all of it to the touch, it is THAT thin.

If you're talking about medium hair then MAYBE you can go 10 years with sulphates 2x a week and not have damage.

Am I taking crazy pills? I don't think so? But I do have FINE hair and 20 years of trying to get it be healthy at waist.

Fine hair is serious business. I really wonder if we're talking about the same hair type.

Yes, I have very fine hair. you can't feel them, nor can you really see them without looking verrrry closely. However, sulfate free doesn't work with my scalp. I feel like you're missing what I'm saying when I tell you my scalp NEEDS sulfates. It needs to be clean with no oils, or it gets itchy and my hair starts falling out. I'd rather have dry hair, than having no hair at all!

Yes, if I washed my entire head with sulfates, and didn't condition my hair would be dry. I don't really need to test it out to know that, that's why I condition twice in the shower and do deep treatments and I never wash all of my hair, unless I have build up.

My hair is doing just fine. It's healthy and soft, and yeah I use sulfates and I don't plan on stopping and I'm growing to waist.

[Ambystoma]

Lets start a sulfate fan club :eyebrows::happydance:

Yo, sign me up ;). I go sulphate free on my scalp since it causes me dandruff, but the lengths and ends really need them. I gave CO/sulphate free/silicone free everything a really fair go and my hair hated it, felt awful and looked awful. I seem to suffer from build up really easily, even when silicone free with no oils or products at all. The water here is pretty hard so I chelate every 2 weeks to keep the ends soft and silky, they start to feel a little rough if I try and stretch it. Barring a year of experimenting with more gentle methods, and the recent no sulphate on scalp policy I've had the same routine with the same products now for around 9 years and my hair seems to adore it :shrug: Plus, if I'm using sulphates then I get to use my beloved silicones too :cheese:

[kaydana]

There are certainly many well touted shampoos that are sulphate shampoos. I'm not saying they are not effective. I'm just saying that if you have FINE hair, then go easy on the sulphate because everytime you use it you basically strip all the oils off your hair. Which is bad for the hair.

Now if you are piling product onto your hair then you need a clarifying shampoo.

But the trouble is, with fine hair. Fast forward a decade. You're piling on product and your using sulphates to take them off two times a week.
I would like to know what that fine hair looks like. Because in my head I'm imagining very dry and split ends around waist.

But you can cover up dry ends with product.

Let me ask you this: lets say you sulphate your hair. Now, DON'T put ANY conditioner on it. NOTHING. No oil, nothing. Let your hair dry.

Now you will see what sulphates are doing for real. Don't mask it with heavy oils and conditioners.

So if you fast forward that ten years.... take away all the product and you'll be left with dry ends with splits.

I'm willing to bet money on it. But that is for FINE hair only.

And I want to add one thing, some people wrongly type their hair as fine when its actually medium.
I'm talking about FINE hair. Which is hair that when you pull a strand through your finger tips, you will not be able
to feel part or all of it to the touch, it is THAT thin.

If you're talking about medium hair then MAYBE you can go 10 years with sulphates 2x a week and not have damage.

Am I taking crazy pills? I don't think so? But I do have FINE hair and 20 years of trying to get it be healthy at waist.

Fine hair is serious business. I really wonder if we're talking about the same hair type.

Oils and (silicone free) conditioners don't "mask" anything, they have a purpose, just as sulphates do.

All sulphate shampoos are not made equal, even if they contain the same sulphates. There are lots of other ingredients that can go into shampoo to increase the mildness of the shampoo and give it other qualities. These ingredients don't mask the damage from the sulphates, they mitigate it. If you wash your hair with a clarifying shampoo every day and never condition then yes, most people are going to end up with dry hair from that. However, if you go out and actually learn something about the ingredients in your hair products (and I'm talking actual facts here, not the "oh my gosh, we're all going to die if we use surfactants" fearmongering that's going on) you can actually find sulphate shampoos that can be used all by themselves.

I wash my hair with a sulphate shampoo. I use a shampoo which ticks all the boxes for increasing mildness (except for not using sulphates), and I add a little bit of extra oil to that shampoo to make it even better (though it works just fine without that, it's packed full of oils anyway). Right now, that is the only thing I wash my hair with. I don't condition it after, I don't put oil on it when I get out of the shower. I wash it with a sulphate shampoo, and that is it. If I were to believe you that this is what sulphates are doing "for real" then I'd be tempted to buy myself some nice sulphate-y surfactant and just use that to wash my hair, because sulphates are obviously the best thing for my hair. Fortunately, I know that isn't true and that the reason my shampoo is awesome is that all those other ingredients are working really really hard to make it that way.

[vega]

Hi guys I've been sulphate free for 3 years until today .......I took the plunge and bought green apple head and shoulders and my hair loved the sulphates hehe, my hair felt so clean I can't remember how long my hair felt this good , so I'm back in love with sulphates

[tigereye]

I have to admit, I do sometimes wish I could use SLS again. I miss the fluffy softness. Sadly, the hives that turn into sores when I scratch isn't great when my back scars easily and my scalp takes forever to heal in part because my skin is so dry normally.
In my case, my hair loves a sulphate wash but my skin can't deal with it.

[lapushka]

There are certainly many well touted shampoos that are sulphate shampoos. I'm not saying they are not effective. I'm just saying that if you have FINE hair, then go easy on the sulphate because everytime you use it you basically strip all the oils off your hair. Which is bad for the hair.

I'm sorry but everyone's mileage varies (YMMV). I have F hair and do well with a sulfate shampoo. I just condition twice afterwards (my washing method is in my signature). Not every finey has issues. You can't generalize just like that, is all I'm sayin'. :)

[GetMeToWaist]

I just condition twice afterwards (my washing method is in my signature)

many many people condition twice, it's not some special snowflake method you made up, lapushka. I had to get that off my chest, i've seen you advertise WCC sooooo much.

[tigereye]

Another thing to point out is that a lot of people here only actually shampoo their scalp. A lot of people even put conditioner on their length to protect it from the harshness of some shampoos, so that their scalp gets the cleaning it needs without affecting the length much.
Also, what's the difference between using a less harsh surfactant to prevent oil stripping, and simply adding the oil or moisture afterwards? I don't really see one.
Oiling post-wash effectively acts as a sebum replacement for the length, and besides, unless you do WO or NW (which can leave some types of fine hair looking lifeless) and use a BBB (which I know some fineys around here have found damaging), the likelihood is that there's not much natural oils reaching your ends anyway by the time your hair is hovering at hip or longer, even if your like me and wash once a week and have your hair in a bun all the time. Oiling and conditioning might actually be more effective in helping preventing damage than washing with a weaker shampoo would.

[Catatafish]

I do that tigereye. I don't always condition my length first, but since I was teen I've only shampooed my scalp, and used at least 10 times more conditioner than shampoo.

I like the feeling that quite strong shampoos give my scalp. It feels like it takes more time until my scalp becomes itchy. That way I don't have to wash my hair as often. Using water alone causes the hair to swell, and protein loss in hair. So I think that as along as I am sensible in protecting my length, I should make my scalp as happy as possible.

I don't have fine hair, but surely this can apply to every hair type.

[lapushka]

many many people condition twice, it's not some special snowflake method you made up, lapushka. I had to get that off my chest, i've seen you advertise WCC sooooo much.

I never claimed it was special. CWC is there too. Sheesh, calm down. :rolleyes:

I was only talking about *my* method here, my way of washing my hair. Since when is that an issue?

[Annalouise]

Yes, I have very fine hair. you can't feel them, nor can you really see them without looking verrrry closely. However, sulfate free doesn't work with my scalp. I feel like you're missing what I'm saying when I tell you my scalp NEEDS sulfates. It needs to be clean with no oils, or it gets itchy and my hair starts falling out. I'd rather have dry hair, than having no hair at all!

Yes, if I washed my entire head with sulfates, and didn't condition my hair would be dry. I don't really need to test it out to know that, that's why I condition twice in the shower and do deep treatments and I never wash all of my hair, unless I have build up.

My hair is doing just fine. It's healthy and soft, and yeah I use sulfates and I don't plan on stopping and I'm growing to waist.

I gotcha. Keep up the good work! .:flower:


Oils and (silicone free) conditioners don't "mask" anything, they have a purpose, just as sulphates do.

All sulphate shampoos are not made equal, even if they contain the same sulphates. There are lots of other ingredients that can go into shampoo to increase the mildness of the shampoo and give it other qualities. These ingredients don't mask the damage from the sulphates, they mitigate it. If you wash your hair with a clarifying shampoo every day and never condition then yes, most people are going to end up with dry hair from that. However, if you go out and actually learn something about the ingredients in your hair products (and I'm talking actual facts here, not the "oh my gosh, we're all going to die if we use surfactants" fearmongering that's going on) you can actually find sulphate shampoos that can be used all by themselves.

I wash my hair with a sulphate shampoo. I use a shampoo which ticks all the boxes for increasing mildness (except for not using sulphates), and I add a little bit of extra oil to that shampoo to make it even better (though it works just fine without that, it's packed full of oils anyway). Right now, that is the only thing I wash my hair with. I don't condition it after, I don't put oil on it when I get out of the shower. I wash it with a sulphate shampoo, and that is it. If I were to believe you that this is what sulphates are doing "for real" then I'd be tempted to buy myself some nice sulphate-y surfactant and just use that to wash my hair, because sulphates are obviously the best thing for my hair. Fortunately, I know that isn't true and that the reason my shampoo is awesome is that all those other ingredients are working really really hard to make it that way.

I understand and I hear you. A well formulated product for long hair is not going to destroy the hair.:)


I'm sorry but everyone's mileage varies (YMMV). I have F hair and do well with a sulfate shampoo. I just condition twice afterwards (my washing method is in my signature). Not every finey has issues. You can't generalize just like that, is all I'm sayin'. :)

Indeed. I will shut up about sulphates on fine hair! lol. Clearly you all love them and have well formulated products and take good care of your hair.:)

[Gertrude]

Off on a tangent, but in the weekend I wash my little girl's underwear and pyamas. The next to the skin layer. She has eczema so they're full of emollient, also known as grease. if I put them in the washing machine with the low foaming detergent, as it is front loading, the machine gets left with a greasy coating on the metal parts and the synthetic rubber destroyed over time.

So I use lots of original bright green Fairy dishwashing liquid, Dawn in the US, in hot water in the sink to soak. I can actually see the green soap stick like magnets to the greasiest parts and a bit later the combined detergent+grease, the micelles, floats up like fat on gravy and can be rinsed away. And then washed as per usual and the washing machine lives and her pyamas feel soft and clean, not weirdly greasy. That is how detergents, including shampoos, work.

Some people wash their hair with Fairy! because they have very greasy hair and they still have hair after. The point of any detergent is to strip grease and dirt from what it is cleaning. ANY. The Betaines are milder but become stronger with time applied and in certain combinations. Olefin Sulfonate is actually very harsh. There are lots of non sulphate shampoos out there are more drying than the sulphate shampoos they're replacing.

Some non SLES shampoos just don't clean very well. So you may well itch over time. Others clean better. So you get drier skin. Not washing too often helps a lot. If there isn't much sebum you are just pouring soap on what doesn't need cleaning.

Lots of sulphate shampoos have betaines and oils and what not in that act like brakes on the cleaning power. My hair is very fine and certainly not medium in thickness and efficient SLES shampoos give me itching skin and flaking ears but not split ends. There isn't much of a medulla in fine hair, but unless the hair is damaged by mechanical or chemical damage so water can easily take the fat and protein in the hair out when it rinses, the hair is not at risk from shampoo.

There are other cleaning methods, without detergent, and they make me, not everyone, itch in the worst way. In my opinion there isn't a huge difference between sulphate and non-sulphate shampoos, more between washing with a shampoo and an alternative to shampoos.

So I am sticking with the detergents, as in shampoos, and alternate between a very mild sulphate shampoo and a betaine cocktail shampoo. My ears don't peel that way but my scalp gets clean. Avoiding mechanical damage keeps the split ends away.

[hanne jensen]

I too use sulphates. The only poo that will clean my scalp is a diluted clarifying poo. My sebum is hard dry and waxy. It does not move down my hair no matter how much I preen or brush. My sebum will build up and clog up my hair follicles. The dirtier my hair is, the dryer it is. My sebum is actually harmful to my scalp and hair. I'm not alone, about 10% of the world's population have this type of sebum. If I stretch hairwashes or use a mild sulphate free poo my scalp will develope small angry red pimples which burn and itch.
Both my hair and scalp hate stuff on them. As fine as my hair is I get build up after only 1 application of a cony conditioner. The only things my hair will accept are coconut oil, shea butter and baby oil. I'm currently using a split repair serum.

[renia22]

Hi guys I've been sulphate free for 3 years until today .......I took the plunge and bought green apple head and shoulders and my hair loved the sulphates hehe, my hair felt so clean I can't remember how long my hair felt this good , so I'm back in love with sulphates


Welcome to the dark side :)

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/funny/2/satan-banana-smiley-emoticon.gif (http://www.sherv.net/)

[meteor]

With cleansers it's always a trade-off between getting hair/skin clean and not stripping it.
Obviously, you'll need to avoid anything that really irritates your skin/scalp, so if sulphates do that for you, then you need to look for alternative surfactants.
I usually find sulphate shampoos better than non-sulphate options for my scalp and hair, but I know some can't tolerate them.
Also, your cleanser should remove product build-up, so if your scalp tolerates only very mild cleansers, then avoid using styling and conditioning products heavy in waxes, polyquats and other ingredients that can build-up fast and need harsh, clarifying shampoos.

Back to your original question, I do think that sulphates are much-maligned these days, while there are many problematic ingredients that are not mentioned or are considered good. The much-quoted phrase that sulphates are in heavy-duty industrial cleansers irks me: clearly, water, emulsifiers, etc are ingredients in different cleansers too, but it doesn't mean that they all have the same formulas or the same level of harshness at all. The good thing about effective surfactants like sulphates is that you don't need much of them in the formula to make a good cleanser, so the overall formulation can remain very gentle. Personally, I'd rather go for a cleanser that cleans well than a weak one that I have to use more often or scrub more aggressively.

[whiterabbit]

All I can say is thanks to this site I'm finally having better hair. In 2008 I went Sulfate free with the best of intentions. It was a disaster ever since. Long story short, my scalp needs a stronger cleanser. Since going back to using Sulfates I haven't even needed to use the medicated one:) I'm still working on it but so far between the sulfates and the WCC that Lapushka has mentioned my hair is the best it's been in YEARS!!!!! WCC is awesome by the way I would have never thought to do it. Thanks!!!!!!!

[Panth]

There are certainly many well touted shampoos that are sulphate shampoos. I'm not saying they are not effective. I'm just saying that if you have FINE hair, then go easy on the sulphate because everytime you use it you basically strip all the oils off your hair. Which is bad for the hair.

Now if you are piling product onto your hair then you need a clarifying shampoo.

But the trouble is, with fine hair. Fast forward a decade. You're piling on product and your using sulphates to take them off two times a week.
I would like to know what that fine hair looks like. Because in my head I'm imagining very dry and split ends around waist.

But you can cover up dry ends with product.

Let me ask you this: lets say you sulphate your hair. Now, DON'T put ANY conditioner on it. NOTHING. No oil, nothing. Let your hair dry.

Now you will see what sulphates are doing for real. Don't mask it with heavy oils and conditioners.

So if you fast forward that ten years.... take away all the product and you'll be left with dry ends with splits.

I'm willing to bet money on it. But that is for FINE hair only.

And I want to add one thing, some people wrongly type their hair as fine when its actually medium.
I'm talking about FINE hair. Which is hair that when you pull a strand through your finger tips, you will not be able
to feel part or all of it to the touch, it is THAT thin.

If you're talking about medium hair then MAYBE you can go 10 years with sulphates 2x a week and not have damage.

Am I taking crazy pills? I don't think so? But I do have FINE hair and 20 years of trying to get it be healthy at waist.

Fine hair is serious business. I really wonder if we're talking about the same hair type.

My hair is fine and thin (2" circumference). Oh, and knee length and still growing with no trims in over a year, annual/biannual or less trims before that, and very little splits.

I used sulphate-containing shampoos all my life until about a year ago. I only stopped I was fed up with scalp dryness. Sulphate shampoos had no effect on my hair whatsoever.

Am I taking crazy pills or ... god forbid, could different people's hair just be ... different!?

[Annalouise]

My hair is fine and thin (2" circumference). Oh, and knee length and still growing with no trims in over a year, annual/biannual or less trims before that, and very little splits.

I used sulphate-containing shampoos all my life until about a year ago. I only stopped I was fed up with scalp dryness. Sulphate shampoos had no effect on my hair whatsoever.

Am I taking crazy pills or ... god forbid, could different people's hair just be ... different!?

That's great Panth! Congratulations on having such LONG fine hair! It is truly an accomplishment. I have a 2" circumference also.
I used to use sulphate shampoos for years but I couldn't get my hair to grow past bsl without dry split ends.
Also, if you don't mind me asking, do you use drugstore or salon shampoos?

Do you have a picture of your hair? I'm really impressed that you grew it that long. Wow! You have given me hope!
Any other advise you can give to a fine thin hair?:confused:

[lapushka]

All I can say is thanks to this site I'm finally having better hair. In 2008 I went Sulfate free with the best of intentions. It was a disaster ever since. Long story short, my scalp needs a stronger cleanser. Since going back to using Sulfates I haven't even needed to use the medicated one:) I'm still working on it but so far between the sulfates and the WCC that Lapushka has mentioned my hair is the best it's been in YEARS!!!!! WCC is awesome by the way I would have never thought to do it. Thanks!!!!!!!

I think it might be particularly good for those of us who depend on medicated shampoos (from time to time or all the time). Double conditioning combats the dry "mess" those shampoos tend to leave behind, and it works for any harsh cleanser.

[JellyBene]

By itself my hair gets dried out with sulfates but I henna frequently so a bit of sulfate doesn't seem to harm it. CO is too gentle for my hair/scalp and *most* sulfate free shampoos work for a while and then my hair gets dingy and limp after a while. I do really love Toadstool's shampoos from etsy, those are sulfate free and have always done wonders for me. Right now I'm using the Godiva shampoo bar from Lush (admittedly mainly for the luscious smell hehe) and it's been good so far :) I just do heavy oilings and only wash every other day

[animetor7]

I think it really depends on the person and their scalp/hair as many have said above me. I have eczema, so for me, sulfates used other than for VERY infrequent clarifying means itchy red patches in my scalp and hairline. The ends of my hair are also extremely dry so sulfates are too stripping and I get more splits when I use them frequently. So for me, shampoo bars are the way to go. However, I think the most important things I've learned in terms of hair and general personal beauty routines is that different things work best for different people. Case in point, my skin and hair love a bi-weekly slathering of coconut oil to maintain moisture, it makes my best friend's hair limp and greasy and makes her skin break out like crazy. So, if sulfates work for you, great! Use them! If they don't try different things until you find something that does work. :)

[Panth]

That's great Panth! Congratulations on having such LONG fine hair! It is truly an accomplishment. I have a 2" circumference also.
I used to use sulphate shampoos for years but I couldn't get my hair to grow past bsl without dry split ends.
Also, if you don't mind me asking, do you use drugstore or salon shampoos?

Do you have a picture of your hair? I'm really impressed that you grew it that long. Wow! You have given me hope!
Any other advise you can give to a fine thin hair?:confused:

I use just regular stuff. Never salon as I'm terribly cheap. ;) I used to use Pantene all the time, usually the 'Volume' or 'Aqua Light' or other ones with a clear shampoo that are designed for fine/thin hair. Now I'm using sulphate-free shampoo to keep my scalp happy (currently Boot's Naked brand) and a protein-heavy conditioner (L'Oreal Elvive Full Restore 5).

As for recommendations, well: patience, gentle handling and updos are, IMO, the most important things. I found updos, in particular, to be critical. I had a false terminal at about TBL for years before I realised that wearing my hair down was the issue. Without daily updos, I'd not be anywhere near knee.

(Sorry, though. I don't do photos.)

[Annalouise]

I use just regular stuff. Never salon as I'm terribly cheap. ;) I used to use Pantene all the time, usually the 'Volume' or 'Aqua Light' or other ones with a clear shampoo that are designed for fine/thin hair. Now I'm using sulphate-free shampoo to keep my scalp happy (currently Boot's Naked brand) and a protein-heavy conditioner (L'Oreal Elvive Full Restore 5).

As for recommendations, well: patience, gentle handling and updos are, IMO, the most important things. I found updos, in particular, to be critical. I had a false terminal at about TBL for years before I realised that wearing my hair down was the issue. Without daily updos, I'd not be anywhere near knee.

(Sorry, though. I don't do photos.)

Yeah that is amazing that you're at knee. I think its a lot harder to get those extreme lengths with our hair type. Thanks for the advise. I guess it really is true about wearing hair up to reach the longer lengths.

May I ask you a couple more questions? What updo style works best for your hair? And how often do you wash your hair? And, also, do you do deep conditioning treatments at all or use a leave in?
Aaannd....one more question: do you brush your hair at all or do you just use a comb to detangle? What do you think about using a bbb on fine hair of that length? Is it do-able?

And as for the picture thing I completely understand.

[lapushka]

May I ask you a couple more questions? What updo style works best for your hair? And how often do you wash your hair? And, also, do you do deep conditioning treatments at all or use a leave in?
Aaannd....one more question: do you brush your hair at all or do you just use a comb to detangle? What do you think about using a bbb on fine hair of that length? Is it do-able?

I have F hair too. I don't use a BBB anymore. I found it to be too "snatchy" and grabby on my hair. I now use a Tangle Teezer after using a wide-tooth comb and it's much much better.

[Rowdy]

Tangle Teezers are amazing! :D They work really well for my hair.

I use sulfate free and sulfate shampoos depending on what my hair needs. When I wear it curly I use very minimal product and no cones (just some MO) so I just lightly wash about twice a week with very diluted Natures Gate shampoo. If i want to straighten my hair I cover it in cones, so the next wash I just put a dime sized amount of sulfate shampoo into my diluted mix and wash like I if I were clarifying.

[Panth]

Yeah that is amazing that you're at knee. I think its a lot harder to get those extreme lengths with our hair type. Thanks for the advise. I guess it really is true about wearing hair up to reach the longer lengths.

May I ask you a couple more questions? What updo style works best for your hair? And how often do you wash your hair? And, also, do you do deep conditioning treatments at all or use a leave in?
Aaannd....one more question: do you brush your hair at all or do you just use a comb to detangle? What do you think about using a bbb on fine hair of that length? Is it do-able?

And as for the picture thing I completely understand.

Yeah, I definitely believe in the whole updo thing. Quite when you start to need it depends on hairtype and how much other damaging stuff you do and how long you're aiming for, but I'm fairly convinced that pretty much anyone will eventually need updos as part of their routine if they keep wanting to go ever longer. For me, it's sitting on the hair that really starts to cause stalls and hence the TBL-->classic region.

Updos - again, I'm supremely lazy. I do a braided cinnabun with spinpins daily. For fancy, I might do a coronet / faux crown braid, sometimes with a rope braid instead of just an English one. When it was a bit shorter, I'd do Freida Kahlo braids and/or coronet-ish ones with two plaits instead of with one. Occasionally I do nautilus buns or orchid buns, but I'm not good enough to make those stay put very long.

Washing - somewhere around twice a week. It is mostly driven by the fact that my hair's blond, hence I get nasty greasy roots quite easily. I don't do anything other than S&C.

Detangling - I have a nice wooden wide-toothed comb that I use all the time. Never brushes. I have a BBB but I find it difficult to use "properly", it never seems to work (just gives me very flat, very greasy-looking hair) and I'm concerned about damage and static. Like lapushka, I find them overly grabby and with the super-long lengths, even very thin, fine hair is hard to brush with them. I tend to use it just for smoothing updos if at all.

[vega]

Hi guys I have a confession I've been doing curly girl for last 2 years and it's not the best for my hair , it was getting Matt and knotty I've gone back to sulphates and loving it my hair actually feels clean and clarified ,I'm washing with sulphates once a day do you think thi is bad let me know your thoughts , oh am I'm noticing less tangles since sulphates x

[lapushka]

Hi guys I have a confession I've been doing curly girl for last 2 years and it's not the best for my hair , it was getting Matt and knotty I've gone back to sulphates and loving it my hair actually feels clean and clarified ,I'm washing with sulphates once a day do you think thi is bad let me know your thoughts , oh am I'm noticing less tangles since sulphates x

If your hair has taken a liking to it, I don't see how this is bad. You have to do what your hair likes, not what you like for your hair! ;)

[Annalouise]

Yeah, I definitely believe in the whole updo thing. Quite when you start to need it depends on hairtype and how much other damaging stuff you do and how long you're aiming for, but I'm fairly convinced that pretty much anyone will eventually need updos as part of their routine if they keep wanting to go ever longer. For me, it's sitting on the hair that really starts to cause stalls and hence the TBL-->classic region.

Updos - again, I'm supremely lazy. I do a braided cinnabun with spinpins daily. For fancy, I might do a coronet / faux crown braid, sometimes with a rope braid instead of just an English one. When it was a bit shorter, I'd do Freida Kahlo braids and/or coronet-ish ones with two plaits instead of with one. Occasionally I do nautilus buns or orchid buns, but I'm not good enough to make those stay put very long.

Washing - somewhere around twice a week. It is mostly driven by the fact that my hair's blond, hence I get nasty greasy roots quite easily. I don't do anything other than S&C.

Detangling - I have a nice wooden wide-toothed comb that I use all the time. Never brushes. I have a BBB but I find it difficult to use "properly", it never seems to work (just gives me very flat, very greasy-looking hair) and I'm concerned about damage and static. Like lapushka, I find them overly grabby and with the super-long lengths, even very thin, fine hair is hard to brush with them. I tend to use it just for smoothing updos if at all.

Ohhh man! This is my 3rd time replying because the last two ones got lost in cyber land. I'm having major issues with posting right now.
Ok. What I was saying was that the bbb is grabby but I find the further I get away from wash day the easier it is to use.

My concern with the bbb is hair loss and am I losing too many hairs with brushing? I'm losing about 50/day when brushing which is quite a bit I think. Compared to when I didn't brush my hair at all. How many hairs do you lose per day? However, I believe those hairs that fall out when brushing were in the resting phase and therefore going to fall out anyways. I'm not sure you can really make hair fall out of your head unless the hair was ready to fall, or you have some fungal or hormonal issue that is triggering the follicle prematurely. In other words, I don't think brushing communicates with the follicle to come out prematurely.

I'm thinking that you must have a longer anagen phase than me because my hair tapers between bsl and waist.
And from what you told me it seems like you didn't experience any tapering issues until you got to classic and it was from mechanical damage from sitting on your hair?

Also, I might have hairfall issues from having an auto-immune disease. If that's the case then waist might be a sort of terminal length for me due to me being unable to correct my hormones. C'est la vie!

[lapushka]

My concern with the bbb is hair loss and am I losing too many hairs with brushing? I'm losing about 50/day when brushing which is quite a bit I think. Compared to when I didn't brush my hair at all. How many hairs do you lose per day? However, I believe those hairs that fall out when brushing were in the resting phase and therefore going to fall out anyways. I'm not sure you can really make hair fall out of your head unless the hair was ready to fall, or you have some fungal or hormonal issue that is triggering the follicle prematurely. In other words, I don't think brushing communicates with the follicle to come out prematurely.

There is something like mechanical damage. If you are too rough with your hair, you can "pull" hairs out. A BBB might contribute to that (I've found).

[Annalouise]

There is something like mechanical damage. If you are too rough with your hair, you can "pull" hairs out. A BBB might contribute to that (I've found).

I'm confused my head will explode shortly....stand back. :p

How many hairs do you loose per day? Did you loose more when you brushed your hair? You have iii hair though, so I can't imagine that hair loss is an issue for you. I have i / ii hair so it is an issue for sure. I don't want to lose any more hairs then I have to.

[lapushka]

I'm confused my head will explode shortly....stand back. :p

How many hairs do you loose per day? Did you loose more when you brushed your hair? You have iii hair though, so I can't imagine that hair loss is an issue for you. I have i / ii hair so it is an issue for sure. I don't want to lose any more hairs then I have to.

Oh yeah, I lost more when I brushed daily. Definitely. My hair's only brushed once a week now, but when it's washed more hair comes out. I think I lose about 80-100 hairs per wash, but barely during the week.

[Annalouise]

Oh yeah, I lost more when I brushed daily. Definitely. My hair's only brushed once a week now, but when it's washed more hair comes out. I think I lose about 80-100 hairs per wash, but barely during the week.

Zoiks! There is only one way for me to find out and that is to not brush my hair for a couple weeks, and then see how much hair I lose daily with a comb.

[Panth]

Ohhh man! This is my 3rd time replying because the last two ones got lost in cyber land. I'm having major issues with posting right now.
Ok. What I was saying was that the bbb is grabby but I find the further I get away from wash day the easier it is to use.

My concern with the bbb is hair loss and am I losing too many hairs with brushing? I'm losing about 50/day when brushing which is quite a bit I think. Compared to when I didn't brush my hair at all. How many hairs do you lose per day? However, I believe those hairs that fall out when brushing were in the resting phase and therefore going to fall out anyways. I'm not sure you can really make hair fall out of your head unless the hair was ready to fall, or you have some fungal or hormonal issue that is triggering the follicle prematurely. In other words, I don't think brushing communicates with the follicle to come out prematurely.

I'm thinking that you must have a longer anagen phase than me because my hair tapers between bsl and waist.
And from what you told me it seems like you didn't experience any tapering issues until you got to classic and it was from mechanical damage from sitting on your hair?

Also, I might have hairfall issues from having an auto-immune disease. If that's the case then waist might be a sort of terminal length for me due to me being unable to correct my hormones. C'est la vie!

I have no idea how many hairs I loose a day. See above posts about being a very lazy longhair. :p

I completely agree about the BBB. I've never bothered to use it daily, but I do find that any sort of major manipulation (washing, head massages, brushing) causes more hairfall and I'm not convinced that all of it is just hair that would have come out anyway. I also find that brushing with a BBB has a tendency to abrade my hair and cause static-induced (or just generalised) tangling, which then causes damage no matter how gently you remove the tangles.

Ah, no. I most definitely have taper. It's now pretty even all the way down - taper from top to bottom, with no major layer-like steps. My plait evenly tapers from top to tip. It's just that from about TBL, when I used to wear it loose nearly 24/7, it would literally not get any longer than midway between TBL and classic. However, if I cut it back to e.g. hip, it would promptly grow back to its old length. Hence, no problem with growth, just with a massive increase in wear. However, I think that you can have worse taper when you begin to grow out hair out. Everyone has 'racer hairs' that speed ahead of the rest and make excessive taper / fairytailing. You can see this in, e.g. Cinnamonhair's growth (http://www.beyondclassiclength.com/kneelength.html) - notice how not only her hemline gets thicker, but the taper in her length moves down and gets less over time, despite her only trimming the hemline. A similar thing happens (at least in my experience) with thinner/finer hair too.

Mm, unfortunately, health conditions can definitely limit your hair growth potential. However, unless you've tried everything to baby that hair, I wouldn't write off longer lengths just yet. And IMO, that is not only cutting out the obvious (dye, bleach, perms, relaxers, flat irons, etc.) but also being very gentle with detangling and styling and trying daily protective updos and doing all of that consistently for some time.

[Annalouise]

I have no idea how many hairs I loose a day. See above posts about being a very lazy longhair. :p

I completely agree about the BBB. I've never bothered to use it daily, but I do find that any sort of major manipulation (washing, head massages, brushing) causes more hairfall and I'm not convinced that all of it is just hair that would have come out anyway. I also find that brushing with a BBB has a tendency to abrade my hair and cause static-induced (or just generalised) tangling, which then causes damage no matter how gently you remove the tangles.

Ah, no. I most definitely have taper. It's now pretty even all the way down - taper from top to bottom, with no major layer-like steps. My plait evenly tapers from top to tip. It's just that from about TBL, when I used to wear it loose nearly 24/7, it would literally not get any longer than midway between TBL and classic. However, if I cut it back to e.g. hip, it would promptly grow back to its old length. Hence, no problem with growth, just with a massive increase in wear. However, I think that you can have worse taper when you begin to grow out hair out. Everyone has 'racer hairs' that speed ahead of the rest and make excessive taper / fairytailing. You can see this in, e.g. Cinnamonhair's growth (http://www.beyondclassiclength.com/kneelength.html) - notice how not only her hemline gets thicker, but the taper in her length moves down and gets less over time, despite her only trimming the hemline. A similar thing happens (at least in my experience) with thinner/finer hair too.

Mm, unfortunately, health conditions can definitely limit your hair growth potential. However, unless you've tried everything to baby that hair, I wouldn't write off longer lengths just yet. And IMO, that is not only cutting out the obvious (dye, bleach, perms, relaxers, flat irons, etc.) but also being very gentle with detangling and styling and trying daily protective updos and doing all of that consistently for some time.

Wow, that was SO informative! Thank you! I was really wondering if it was true that people could move the thickness down with trimming and Cinnamonhair's photo's really prove that it does work. It takes years but you can see that her taper after classic disappeared. That is really inspiring. I love her hair too she is one of my long hair favorites.

Wow. Well that is encouraging. I think that I'm going to change my hair care routine and stop doing scalp massages and using a bbb for a couple weeks and see if I lose less hair. My hair is growing fast so I feel that the scalp stimulation is good for the follicles....BUT, if it increases hair fall then that is not good for someone like me with thin hair.

I'm going to tear a page our of your book and just shampoo & condition and wear my hair up and just leave it alone and my scalp.

I do monitor how much hair I loose so I'll have a pretty good idea in a few weeks if I'm losing less hair.

THANKS:blossom: You're so sweet to help me.

[jeanniet]

I think it's also important to point out that there are degrees of F, just as there are with M and C hair. Some F hair is really very, very fine, while other F hair may be, relatively speaking, more robust but still fall within that F category. I have F hair (hair analysis, not my own judgment), but it's not on the ultra-fine end of the spectrum and is fairly resilient. SLS shampoos don't bother it too terribly when used in conjunction with conditioner--I used them for years and really any breakage I got was from yanking a brush through it, stuff like that. But SLS is terrible on my scalp. Took years of itching and flaking to figure that out, lol. Even non-SLS is somewhat irritating, actually. So now I very rarely shampoo at all. I usually do a chelating shampoo once a year or so and that's about it. Otherwise, I use non-SLS shampoo and even that's no more than about every four months. I don't seem to get buildup from CO, so that's what I do almost exclusively now.

[LauraLongLocks]

This thread has had some good reading in it. I was using a SLES shampoo (Paul Mitchell Shampoo One) once a week, and 2-3 co-washes between shampoos. But then I decided to try some Pantene Ice Shine, and so for almost two months, I've been using SLS, SLES shampoo once a week. Initially, I noticed more split ends, but that could have been attributed to laziness with deep conditioning and oiling and such. My scalp and hair loved it right away because it was squeaky clean. With all the silicone build-up gone, my hair was super shiny. However, I am feeling that it actually is too drying on my hair at this length, and that the splits may have been caused by using such a drying detergent. I think it would be fine for my hair at BSL or above to use SLS, SLES shampoo every time I wash, but I am looking for a milder cleanser for the sake of my hair. I have no doubt my scalp will absolutely need SLS from time to time, but I am going to try and steer away from it on a regular basis. I am hoping to stretch to monthly SLS shampooing, and maybe go back to the milder SLES or one of the sulphate-free options (I am learning that not all sulphate-free detergents are mild, however) for my weekly shampoo. I am a 'cone lover, so I know I will need SLS to cut the build-up on my hair as well as get my scalp totally clean and happy, at least some of the time. The important thing to know about SLS is how it works and when it should be used. For my scalp and hair, I am hoping to find a routine that uses it minimally, but still keeps my scalp cleansed enough and does not dry out my hair too much. It's all about balance.

On the subject of cleaning hair, brushing, and hairloss, I can't leave out my current experiment with my BBB. First, I thought I had a 100% boar brush, but I searched high and low on the internet for my brush because I could not remember where I bought it. I finally found that it is sold at Sally's and it was NOT 100% boar. It is reinforced boar. I have another brush that is 100% boar, but it is so soft it cannot penetrate through my hair to reach my scalp. So, I searched some of the archives and read a lot of reviews on different BBBs and heard so many wonderful reviews of the Mason Pearson BBB. Then I saw the price tag!!! :agape: So, I looked for decent alternatives to the MP BBB and found four brushes that might work for me. I ordered all four of them for a total price of around $60. Three of them arrived today and the last is supposed to arrive within the next week. I plan to do a full review of them on my Youtube channel after I have used them a while, but I digress.

What I really want to say about it is even using the reinforced BBB, I have not yet experienced increased hair fall from brushing. I followed this tutorial, except I detangle with fingers, and then with a wide tooth comb each time I change the direction of my hair, before brushing with the BBB:


http://youtu.be/kmNVWpP01KQ

(Please note that there is also a tutorial for African hair, in case anyone with super coily/kinky hair is interested. There is a link at the beginning of the video I posted that will take you to it.)

I normally lose few hairs. I have a low shed rate of about 25-30 hairs a day. Since beginning to brush twice a day with my reinforced BBB (granted, I've only been doing it about a week), I am losing about 10-15 hairs a day. Now that I have some really awesome 100% BBBs that actually penetrate through my hair to the scalp, I will not be using my reinforced BBB anymore. The 100% BBBs all feel AMAZING on my scalp and do a very nice job. I find that I don't have to push as hard to get through to my scalp, as the bristles are longer than my reinforced BBB and plenty stiff enough. Anyway, my point here is that so far, I have had a decrease in my shed rate and I think it is absolutely directly related to the brushing.

Additionally, brushing with the BBB twice a day works as a type of cleansing for the scalp and hair, in that it moves sebum down the length and helps to remove dirt and debris. I am also noticing fewer tangles when switching from bent-at-waist position to upright position. Maybe it's the additional sebum on my length helping to condition my hair?

I have F/M hair. About 1/3 - 1/2 of my strands are almost impossible to see and feel between my fingers, and the remaining 1/2 - 2/3 are somewhat easier to see and feel. I have a few truly M/C hairs mixed in, as well, but they are definitely the exception. These coarser hairs probably make up about 1% of my hair. I am finding that my hair is quite delicate and must be worn up to prevent mechanical damage and tangling. I am aiming to use cleansing agents that will not dry my hair so much because I know my hair is delicate and can't withstand harsher cleansing methods without a lot of splitting. Deep conditioning is helping to reduce my splits, yes, but I'm trying to find out if it would be any better to use milder cleansers in the first place. Only time will tell.

I certainly haven't been at this long enough to have anything authoritative to say on the matter. I just wanted to share what my experience has been so far, and possibly allay some fears about increased hairloss from using a BBB. If/when I find the magical routine that is perfect, I will definitely post.

[Panth]

Wow, that was SO informative! Thank you! I was really wondering if it was true that people could move the thickness down with trimming and Cinnamonhair's photo's really prove that it does work. It takes years but you can see that her taper after classic disappeared. That is really inspiring. I love her hair too she is one of my long hair favorites.

Wow. Well that is encouraging. I think that I'm going to change my hair care routine and stop doing scalp massages and using a bbb for a couple weeks and see if I lose less hair. My hair is growing fast so I feel that the scalp stimulation is good for the follicles....BUT, if it increases hair fall then that is not good for someone like me with thin hair.

I'm going to tear a page our of your book and just shampoo & condition and wear my hair up and just leave it alone and my scalp.

I do monitor how much hair I loose so I'll have a pretty good idea in a few weeks if I'm losing less hair.

THANKS:blossom: You're so sweet to help me.

Well, I wouldn't go overboard and copy my routine. You're as likely to get problems from copying mine as by copying anyone else's. Also, note that I have a very minimal routine largely because I'm not actually that hair- or beauty-focused. For me, fuss and fancy stuff is not relaxing or indulgent or comforting and it doesn't make me feel that much better about myself or my appearance. Hence, very low-fuss routine and more time spent on reading and crafting. ;)

What I would take from this is the need to optimise your routine for your own hair, that more is not necessarily better (though it can be fun, if you like that sort of thing), and that you shouldn't carbon-copy anyone's routine as even if your hair is identical to theirs (and it probably isn't), you're never going to also have an identical water type, air quality, styling routine, lifestyle, etc.

However, t'was lovely to talk to you and good luck with your hair! :flower:

~~~~

As for everyone else, I totally agree that F is a wide classification bracket, as with M and C. Personally, my hair is fine enough to feel like cobwebs sometimes and fine enough that you can't always see individual hairs. But it's blond, which also affects how easy it is to spot. It's not quite cat-hair sort of fineness / baby hair.

I totally agree about SLS being mostly about scalp comfort rather than hair. For those with a sensitivity (including myself), SLS is a bad to terrible idea. For those with recurrent yeast infections, SLS is often very beneficial. For everyone else ... I'm not sure, unless you have finer hair than mine and want to get it super-super-long (or, unless you are doing other damaging things, e.g. dye) that SLS per se is something to worry about. I'd be more concerned with formulations and what works best as a whole product, rather than particular ingredients.

[Annalouise]

Lauralonglocks- what a lovely post! Thank you for sharing your progress with a bbb and also your progress with sulphates. The bbb is addictive I admit. It feels so nice to brush the hair in the upside down position and it does make the ends super soft without any conditioner. I hope that it continues to work for you and that you don't have the 'hair loss' downside that some people report.

I could not do that style of brushing he recommends though because every time she changes position I would not be able to move the brush through my hair. I would have to detangle my hair every time I reversed standing position. So I would have to detangle standing, then bend to brush, detangle again, brush, stand upright, detangle, brush, ...etc... Because I have cobweb hair!:applause

Panth - that is how I describe my hair also is - 'cobwebs'. It doesn't' have enough weight to lay down unless it goes into curls. If I brush it then the hair just sort of floats in the air (and tangles). That is until several days after wash day when the oils from my scalp can moved down the hairs adding some weight to them.

[Annalouise]

Lauralonglocks- :toast:those videos are great! I watched the one for kinky hair and this is how I remember my school girl friend's hair was conditioned by her mother with brushing. Like she said in the video "It's not a grooming tool".

One time I told my sister she should brush her hair with a BBB and she said: "oh my God! I can't walk around looking like a frizz head!" And I told her no, not for styling. It's for the HEALTH of the hair strands, so you can do it before you get in the shower to wash your hair.

That is an important point about brushing is that you can reset your hair after, or style it how you like it you don't have to walk around with POOFY hair...lol. Too funny. Or you can if you like that look.:p

Watching those videos made me want to brush my hair. But I am going to do 2 weeks OFF the bbb to see if I loose less hair.

Speaking of stimulating the scalp though try washing your hair upside down! Wowzers!

[LauraLongLocks]

AnnaLouise, I do exactly as you said you would have to do... detangle each time I change positions. I bend at waist, detangle with fingers and wide tooth comb, then check with my Tangle Teezer to be sure I have all the little tangles. Then I brush with my BBB. I switch to upright and detangle with fingers and wide tooth comb, check with my Tangle Teezer to be sure, then brush with the BBB. One round of this takes me about 10 minutes. If I do it three times as suggested in the video, it is a full 30 minute event.

[Annalouise]

I think once upside down is enough. I don't have ALL day! I mean c'mon! hahaha:p

[meteor]

I totally agree about SLS being mostly about scalp comfort rather than hair. For those with a sensitivity (including myself), SLS is a bad to terrible idea. For those with recurrent yeast infections, SLS is often very beneficial. For everyone else ... I'm not sure, unless you have finer hair than mine and want to get it super-super-long (or, unless you are doing other damaging things, e.g. dye) that SLS per se is something to worry about. I'd be more concerned with formulations and what works best as a whole product, rather than particular ingredients.

:D I couldn't agree more! ^^

[JellyBene]

uh oh update: I've been using shampoos with sulfates for a couple months and it was fine for the first month or so but now my hair feels all dry/fragile after washes. Oh well, I guess it's different for everyone.

[KittyBird]

uh oh update: I've been using shampoos with sulfates for a couple months and it was fine for the first month or so but now my hair feels all dry/fragile after washes. Oh well, I guess it's different for everyone.
That was my experience too. I switched to sls-free shampoo last month, and now my hair is doing better. :)

[jupiterinleo]

This thread has been very interesting to read through.


I'm actually not quite sure what my hair likes. I mostly just seem to know what it doesn't like. I'm fairly sure that my scalp doesn't like SLS (it gets very flaky when I use Pantene Aqua Light, though my skin could possibly be adverse to strong fragrance now that I think about it) but my ALS shampoo (Garnier Pure Clean) it does fine with. However, the only real difference I've noticed lately is from one of the last shampoos I used for the first time, though it was a chelating shampoo so it's hard to tell if it was the sulfates or just the fact that my hair needed chelating.

I think I'll need to type up a hair journal and experiment with different products.

[Katlette]

I've been using sulfate free shampoo for some time, but I don't really remember why I ditched sulfates. So, I decided to try what happens when I use a standard SLS shampoo (with my usual conditioner) - my hair is now a fluffy voluminous bush, more in the 2s than a straightie! My sister pointed out that this is what my hair used to look like all the time when I was younger (and why I attacked it with straighteners as a teenager).

The volume is nice and my hair is squeaky clean, but is this bad for it? Does this mean SLS is damaging for my hair, or is it purely an aesthetic concern? I can see occasions on which I would enjoy the volume and wave, but is my hair's behaviour a sign that it's being dried out too much or something?

I think I'm on the fence with sulfates. I don't know what my hair is trying to tell me.

[lapushka]

I think I'm on the fence with sulfates. I don't know what my hair is trying to tell me.

That it's too dry after that sulfate shampoo, probably. Try a deep conditioner whenever you wash with sulfates or condition twice after washing.