scalp cleansers

[mamaherrera]

Something totally new today for me, but I saw on this site that you should use a "scalp cleanser" every so often, and that it is different than shampoo, because it cleans follicles and everything from residue. I looked at some, and notice some have herbs, some have oil, . . . . some have vinegar (which I can't stand doing). But what all do you guys use to keep hair follicles clean, to give them a deep cleanse, because that is something I NEVER do. I don't know if a "lemon juice" rinse would do it, or what would work, so that I can include this in my regimen, at least once a month or so. thanks

[meteor]

To provide a thorough cleanse for my scalp, I like to use dandruff shampoo from time to time (once every couple of months or so), just because dandruff shampoos provide a deep cleanse but tend to be stripping.

I also recommend trying clay masks for a good cleanse - mud masks work great on skin and scalp by absorbing grease and gunk.

Be careful with lemon juice - it's extremely acidic and it also makes skin very photosensitive, and it can dry out and lighten hair significantly. If you use it, dilute it well and make sure not to expose your scalp to sun for around 12 hours after use.

[lilin]

Something totally new today for me, but I saw on this site that you should use a "scalp cleanser" every so often, and that it is different than shampoo, because it cleans follicles and everything from residue. I looked at some, and notice some have herbs, some have oil, . . . . some have vinegar (which I can't stand doing). But what all do you guys use to keep hair follicles clean, to give them a deep cleanse, because that is something I NEVER do. I don't know if a "lemon juice" rinse would do it, or what would work, so that I can include this in my regimen, at least once a month or so. thanks

Eh... that sounds like hype to me and doesn't jive with what we know about maintaining a healthy scalp on the average person. Your typical shampoo with SLS or SLES is already an extremely efficient cleanser, and leaves very little reside -- and pretty much none if you use a clarifying shampoo.

And furthermore, unless there's some kind of medical reason for it or you're having severe hard water build-up, this is actually kind of a bad idea for your scalp. You don't want to be stripping it completely bare. It has an acidic mantle which helps protect your hair and skin from weather conditions or mechanical damage by keeping its environment more stable, and the follicle and shaft protected. The fact that this mantle often can't reach the end of long hair is why many of us use oil or leave-in conditioner on our lengths -- it's a replacement for that. You want to keep that mantle from getting dirty or built up, of course, but stripping it off totally can cause skin problems and leave hair vulnerable.

This is why some people find typical shampoo too harsh, actually. It strips down their scalp more than their skin likes, and if they're at all sensitive to that, it can result in scalp problems. Dryness, irritation, acne, and over-production of oil as the skin and follicle tries to compensate for having its balance upset are all things that people can experience.

This is the trade-off of clarifying shampoo. The reason it exists is to get rid of minerals and other tough-to-shift things that can build up in certain environments. But it will also take off your mantle. That's a downside, not a plus. It's just that it's necessary to get rid of the minerals and stuff.

That's why a lot of people pre-oil, or dilute shampoo, or rely on the gentler cleansers in conditioners with CO washing, or DIY using gentler cleansers. In the absence of a medical condition that calls for it, you don't want to totally break down your mantle. You just want to keep it from building up too much, that's all.

The mantle keeps itself clean pretty darn well, and it is actually full of its own natural antibacterials and antifungals. You just want to keep the surface fresh (i.e. break down dirt that's landed on top of it) and take off unnecessary excess. If you're simply doing that, the environment in your follicle is extremely clean. The fact that there's sebum inside it doesn't mean it's unclean. That is the ideal environment for hair, as it transitions from living cell to keratin strand.

Furthermore, none of those things would deep cleanse your scalp anyway, even if that were actually necessary. All of them are considerably weaker than most shampoos, I don't believe any of them contain any kind of surfactant or sufficiently strong pull to take out all oil, and some actually leave behind residues and coatings of their own, such as vinegar, oil, and many teas.

And none of those things are actually bad for hair -- they do have various uses. They're just not going to "deep cleanse" anything.

[Madora]

Eh... that sounds like hype to me and doesn't jive with what we know about maintaining a healthy scalp on the average person. Your typical shampoo with SLS or SLES is already an extremely efficient cleanser, and leaves very little reside -- and pretty much none if you use a clarifying shampoo.

And furthermore, unless there's some kind of medical reason for it or you're having severe hard water build-up, this is actually kind of a bad idea for your scalp. You don't want to be stripping it completely bare. It has an acidic mantle which helps protect your hair and skin from weather conditions or mechanical damage by keeping its environment more stable, and the follicle and shaft protected. The fact that this mantle often can't reach the end of long hair is why many of us use oil or leave-in conditioner our lengths -- it's a replacement for that. You want to keep that mantle from getting dirty or built up, of course, but stripping it off totally can cause skin problems and leave hair vulnerable.

This is why some people find typical shampoo too harsh, actually. It strips down their scalp more than their skin likes, and if they're at all sensitive to that, it can result in scalp problems. Dryness, irritation, acne, and over-production of oil as the skin and follicle tries to compensate for having its balance upset are all things that people can experience.

That's why a lot of people pre-oil, or dilute shampoo, or rely on the gentler cleansers in conditioners with CO washing, or DIY using gentler cleansers. In the absence of a medical condition that calls for it, you don't want to totally break down your mantle. You just want to keep it from building up too much, that's all.

The mantle keeps itself clean pretty darn well, and it is actually full of its own natural antibacterials and antifungals. You just want to keep the surface fresh (i.e. break down dirt that's landed on top of it) and take off unnecessary excess. If you're simply doing that, the environment in your follicle is extremely clean. The fact that there's sebum inside it doesn't mean it's unclean. That is the ideal environment for hair, as it transitions from living cell to keratin strand.

Furthermore, none of those things would deep cleanse your scalp anyway, even if that were actually necessary. All of them are considerably weaker than most shampoos, I don't believe any of them contain any kind of surfactant or sufficiently strong pull to take out all oil, and some actually leave behind residues and coatings of their own, such as vinegar, oil, and many teas.

And none of those things are actually bad for hair -- they do have various uses. They're just not going to "deep cleanse" anything.

^^^^ to infinity and beyond! Please, do not mess with your scalp! Special "scalp cleaning" products are a lot of malarkey!

[momschicklets]

Eh... that sounds like hype to me and doesn't jive with what we know about maintaining a healthy scalp on the average person. Your typical shampoo with SLS or SLES is already an extremely efficient cleanser, and leaves very little reside -- and pretty much none if you use a clarifying shampoo.

And furthermore, unless there's some kind of medical reason for it or you're having severe hard water build-up, this is actually kind of a bad idea for your scalp. You don't want to be stripping it completely bare. It has an acidic mantle which helps protect your hair and skin from weather conditions or mechanical damage by keeping its environment more stable, and the follicle and shaft protected. The fact that this mantle often can't reach the end of long hair is why many of us use oil or leave-in conditioner our lengths -- it's a replacement for that. You want to keep that mantle from getting dirty or built up, of course, but stripping it off totally can cause skin problems and leave hair vulnerable.

This is why some people find typical shampoo too harsh, actually. It strips down their scalp more than their skin likes, and if they're at all sensitive to that, it can result in scalp problems. Dryness, irritation, acne, and over-production of oil as the skin and follicle tries to compensate for having its balance upset are all things that people can experience.

This is the trade-off of clarifying shampoo. The reason it exists is to get rid of minerals and other tough-to-shift things that can build up in certain environments. But it will also take off your mantle. That's a downside, not a plus. It's just that it's necessary to get rid of the minerals and stuff.

That's why a lot of people pre-oil, or dilute shampoo, or rely on the gentler cleansers in conditioners with CO washing, or DIY using gentler cleansers. In the absence of a medical condition that calls for it, you don't want to totally break down your mantle. You just want to keep it from building up too much, that's all.

The mantle keeps itself clean pretty darn well, and it is actually full of its own natural antibacterials and antifungals. You just want to keep the surface fresh (i.e. break down dirt that's landed on top of it) and take off unnecessary excess. If you're simply doing that, the environment in your follicle is extremely clean. The fact that there's sebum inside it doesn't mean it's unclean. That is the ideal environment for hair, as it transitions from living cell to keratin strand.

Furthermore, none of those things would deep cleanse your scalp anyway, even if that were actually necessary. All of them are considerably weaker than most shampoos, I don't believe any of them contain any kind of surfactant or sufficiently strong pull to take out all oil, and some actually leave behind residues and coatings of their own, such as vinegar, oil, and many teas.

And none of those things are actually bad for hair -- they do have various uses. They're just not going to "deep cleanse" anything.


:shocked: Wow! I learned a ton reading your post...I didn't know any of this.

[lapushka]

Eh... that sounds like hype to me and doesn't jive with what we know about maintaining a healthy scalp on the average person. Your typical shampoo with SLS or SLES is already an extremely efficient cleanser, and leaves very little reside -- and pretty much none if you use a clarifying shampoo.

^^ This. Plus the rest of what lilin said!

[lilin]

Aww, thanks guys!

Glad it was helpful, momschicklets. :)

[meteor]

Lilin, you mention that it's important not to use cleansers that totally break down the acid mantle... Which commercial products do you have in mind? :) I can only think of lye, baking soda, bleach, undiluted vinegar/lemon juice... but those are obviously not something we'd call good cleansers... Or were you thinking of clarifying shampoos?
Yes, clarifying shampoos are usually more alkaline than conditioning shampoos, but that's what helps them cleanse more effectively. Unfortunately, it strips hair, but that's the trade-off. Clarifying is not something you want to do often, but sometimes it has to be done.
Even tap water and ph-balanced shampoos are somewhat alkaline to hair and scalp, since scalp and hair's ideal ph is in the range of 4.5 - 5.5. Conditioners tend to be significantly more acidic and that restores the ph - the ph is slightly disturbed and restored every time we wash our bodies, actually.

(Oh, and if somebody is interested, you can find ph of popular shampoos here: http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2012/02/ph-of-shampoo-ultimate-list.html or by contacting the manufacturer directly :flower: )

[mamaherrera]

Thanks all for sharing input and helping me not go down that road then!! I don't even use clarifying shampoos, is it necessary???? Also, I've heard of some people saying they condition (scalp and hair) and then shampoo, . . . .which would kind of be like oiling and shampooing. BUt I just tend to condition length and shampoo scalp is all?? I haven't even thought if I should shampoo length every so often. what all do you think on those types of things????

[meteor]

Thanks all for sharing input and helping me not go down that road then!! I don't even use clarifying shampoos, is it necessary???? Also, I've heard of some people saying they condition (scalp and hair) and then shampoo, . . . .which would kind of be like oiling and shampooing. BUt I just tend to condition length and shampoo scalp is all?? I haven't even thought if I should shampoo length every so often. what all do you think on those types of things????

To put it very simply, you need to clarify only when you have build-up. Typical build-up would be: from styling products, heavy conditioners rich in silicones, waxes, quats... applied over and over again, especially if you only wash your hair with mild "moisturizing" shampoos or with CO-washes.
Also, if your build-up is mineral (from hard water, chlorinated pools, etc), then you'll need to chelate - use a chelating or "swimmers" shampoo and/or acidic rinses to remove traces of chlorine, iron, copper...

Ideally, it's best to avoid the whole "build-up / clarify" cycle - so try not to use heavy products that build up on your hair easily. This will allow you to use milder cleansing methods.
A reasonable (but not perfect) alternative to clarifying is rotating products to slow down the process of the same ingredients building up.

[Firefox7275]

As far as I know my scalp follicles are self cleaning, they've been managing fine for the last forty years although perhaps my hair dye has been getting in there for the last twenty five. Either way my skin barrier and hair seem way more content since I quit all harsh anionic shampoos (actually virtually all shampoo, I only use a low-poo if my hair has build up from say a polyquat styling product).

[mamaherrera]

Thanks all for sharing input and helping me not go down that road then!! I don't even use clarifying shampoos, is it necessary???? Also, I've heard of some people saying they condition (scalp and hair) and then shampoo, . . . .which would kind of be like oiling and shampooing. BUt I just tend to condition length and shampoo scalp is all?? I haven't even thought if I should shampoo length every so often. what all do you think on those types of things????

[meteor]

Thanks all for sharing input and helping me not go down that road then!! I don't even use clarifying shampoos, is it necessary????
As I put above, I think clarifying is not needed at all if you don't have product build-up. :)


Also, I've heard of some people saying they condition (scalp and hair) and then shampoo, . . . .which would kind of be like oiling and shampooing. BUt I just tend to condition length and shampoo scalp is all?? I haven't even thought if I should shampoo length every so often. what all do you think on those types of things????
For this question, I highly recommend this article: http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2014/03/oil-pre-shampoo-or-pre-wash.html
She really explains pre-poos and their role very well, I believe. :)

[lilin]

Lilin, you mention that it's important not to use cleansers that totally break down the acid mantle... Which commercial products do you have in mind? :) I can only think of lye, baking soda, bleach, undiluted vinegar/lemon juice... but those are obviously not something we'd call good cleansers... Or were you thinking of clarifying shampoos?
Yes, clarifying shampoos are usually more alkaline than conditioning shampoos, but that's what helps them cleanse more effectively. Unfortunately, it strips hair, but that's the trade-off. Clarifying is not something you want to do often, but sometimes it has to be done.
Even tap water and ph-balanced shampoos are somewhat alkaline to hair and scalp, since scalp and hair's ideal ph is in the range of 4.5 - 5.5. Conditioners tend to be significantly more acidic and that restores the ph - the ph is slightly disturbed and restored every time we wash our bodies, actually.

(Oh, and if somebody is interested, you can find ph of popular shampoos here: http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2012/02/ph-of-shampoo-ultimate-list.html or by contacting the manufacturer directly :flower: )

A clarifying shampoo will pretty much do that. So will over-use of a normal SLS shampoo, or at least all that will be left is a touch of the shampoo itself.

Vinegar and lemon juice don't clean. They could certainly screw with your hair and scalp undiluted, but vinegar in particular actually leaves behind its own film. There seems to be some conflicting evidence about whether baking soda truly cleans as well, or whether it's just very drying. Lye and bleach, I'd imagine, if for no other reason than that they'd probably take some of your skin with them as well.

I think anything nonionic or cationic is going to be gentler to the mantle. Anionics as a a class -- of which SLS and SLES in shampoo are members -- are much stronger degreasers, and will take off more of the mantle than alternatives. Some people need this cleaning power though, and if your scalp can take it, then that's what you should do. There are various ways to help reduce how much it breaks down, as I mentioned earlier -- pre-oiling, dilution, oil shampooing, etc. But if you don't need that much power, or if you've never tested it, I think it's certainly worth giving other stuff a try.

There are commercial shampoos with only nonionic active ingredients, but they're fairly scant. Soap nuts, soapwort, and yucca are DIY alternatives that are simple to prepare -- they contain saponin, a class of nonionics. Nonionics are weaker than anionics, but they're still pretty darn good cleansers. While not everyone likes them for various reasons, I don't think I've ever seen someone say they don't like them because they don't clean. They're plenty for most people in terms of cleaning power. I personally use soap nut liquid which is my favorite wash so far, and I plan to give soapwort a try soon, just to see what it's like. It can be grown in temperate climates, so I may grow some if I like it. :D

Cationics are gentler still and can be found in many conditioners, so if you're a CO-washer, that's what's cleaning your hair. They don't wash completely bare, but they do transfer out dirt pretty well, and for many people, it's plenty clean enough. Curlies who tend to have thirstier hair especially like these, of course.

As far as getting that perfect slightly acidic pH, really the easiest way to do that is CO or DIY/alteration of existing shampoo. Soapnuts and soapwort are both about right (not sure about yucca?). Adding a bit of lemon or vinegar to shampoo will bring down the pH a bit as well. But this doesn't work with liquid soap, like Dr. Bronners or something -- it will cause the soap to separate and lose all cleaning ability.

[lilin]

Thanks all for sharing input and helping me not go down that road then!! I don't even use clarifying shampoos, is it necessary???? Also, I've heard of some people saying they condition (scalp and hair) and then shampoo, . . . .which would kind of be like oiling and shampooing. BUt I just tend to condition length and shampoo scalp is all?? I haven't even thought if I should shampoo length every so often. what all do you think on those types of things????

Usually not, or at least not often. It's an occasional thing that some people with especially hard water and/or especially high product use sometimes need. If you have that kind of build up, you'll be able to feel it. I managed to get away without it even in the Southwest (which has pretty bad water). That said, I recently used it after I tried a coconut milk experiment that went horrible, horribly wrong. Nothing else was getting that stuff out! Yup, bit of a mad kitchen scientist sometimes...

I wash first with soap nut liquid, and then condition (with what varies -- I'm still playing with that). I wash the scalp only. The run-off as it rinses down my hair seems to be enough, for me. I've never felt a particular *need* to clean my lengths.

Really, go by how your fair feels. If you need to clarify, or if your lengths aren't getting clean, you'll be able to tell.

As far as the "order of operations," as it were, I don't really think there's a right or wrong answer. It depends on what your cleanser is, what your conditioner is, how dry your hair is, and simply what you like. There's infinite ways to take good care of hair. There's endless theories of how different routines work, and there's some science that will support almost each and every one of them, really. Which is best for you depends on your unique scalp and hair.

So, do what gives you good hair. :)

[mamaherrera]

After reading that, it looks like you only pre-oil the hair, not the scalp. Any of you oil the scalp as well, or just the hair????

[lapushka]

After reading that, it looks like you only pre-oil the hair, not the scalp. Any of you oil the scalp as well, or just the hair????

I'd say it's up to you. Experiment with it a little and see what *you* like best!

[lilin]

After reading that, it looks like you only pre-oil the hair, not the scalp. Any of you oil the scalp as well, or just the hair????

I only oil the length because I have extremely grabby hair. There's no way my nonionic cleanser would shift it, and even an anionic shampoo can't do it on the first try. The only way to oil my roots and actually expect to get it out would be 2 washes with a strong shampoo.

For my own hair, it's gentler to just not oil it and be able to do one light wash rather than 2 strong ones.

We do have people who do oil scalp massages. And I may try this someday, with an extremely small amount of a very light oil, if I have nowhere to be the following day so I can allow some of it to absorb. I *might* be able to wash that out with my gentler cleanser. But I'd have to try to see.

Basically, it depends on your hair and its cleaning needs.

[hanne jensen]

Be careful of poos that promise to reconstruct or have ceramides and polyaxemers or copolymers. In 2012 I totally trashed my scalp using these products. My follicles were completely clogged up. I didn't shed or grow. After spending a fortune to clear my scalp up, I'm hysterical about anything on my scalp. If I suspect that there's a product residue on my scalp I'll spray my scalp with diluted green tea.

What has really helped my scalp and hair is brushing with a BBB. After de-tangling with a comb first.