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FallingDarkness
July 4th, 2014, 04:24 PM
So basically my mom thinks my hair is full of splits. But really it's just a lot of new growth. Other than a few minor S&Ds, my hair has been untouched since October. My ends are slightly crunchy, but my hemline is still really thick. I don't think I need a trim, I definitely don't want a trim, but she things my hair is "dying". Heads up mom: My hair is healthier than your hair could ever be. Annnnyways, seeing how I don't think I can get out of this, I need advice. Obviously just 1/4 of an inch off, because I don't want to lose any of my fantastic growth last month, but what precautions should I take before going to the hair dresser? Can I ask them to let me comb my own hair? Is cutting on dry hair better than cutting wet (which is what I'm used to)? I'm not going to self trim my hair yet, because I think I'd make a bigger problem and not satisfy my mom, which is the only reason why I'm getting a trim in the first place. HELP.

coconutinsight
July 4th, 2014, 04:26 PM
Why can't you get out of this? Tell her you don't wan't to cut your hair, this isn't something she can make you do. If you really don't want to, stand up for yourself :flower: I mean it is YOUR hair, not her hair..

martyna_22
July 4th, 2014, 04:29 PM
I don't think you should anyone let decide for you, even if it's your mom. But if you really decide to go:
Of course you can ask to comb your own hair.
Cutting wet is a better idea, I've read somewhere it makes the end more sealed or something, which makes it less prone to splitting.
And in addition, you can definitely ask for drying on a cool setting.
Remember, you're the customer - you're not supposed to be afraid of something you're paying for.

Larki
July 4th, 2014, 04:41 PM
Why can't you get out of this? Tell her you don't wan't to cut your hair, this isn't something she can make you do. If you really don't want to, stand up for yourself :flower: I mean it is YOUR hair, not her hair..

Ooooh, this would NOT fly in my house. No talking back - and my mom's response would that it might be my hair, but she has to look at it. :p

Sharysa
July 4th, 2014, 04:42 PM
Actually, cutting wet might be a bad idea if your hair's wavy enough for visible shrinkage. At the least, cutting your hair wet could end up with a sloppy hemline once you go back to your normal routine.

I cut my hair dry and it has no ill effect on my hair. Plus it's just easier and faster for me.

LunaLuvsU
July 4th, 2014, 04:46 PM
I would snap and flip out to be honest o.o "My hair, my body. Dont like it? too damn bad. I dont tell you what to do with your hair so lay off mine. it doesnt belong to you and I dont grow my hair to please you. shove off." Then again im a little too fearless in some situations..

FallingDarkness
July 4th, 2014, 04:46 PM
Well IDK. My hair isn't crazy wavy *pokes avatar pic* but it's not straight either. Soo idk.

I tried to argue, but my mom is finally putting her foot down on this subject. :( Can't WAIT to go to college. No more trims for me!!!! :P Unfortunately that's a year away. :/

coconutinsight
July 4th, 2014, 04:47 PM
Ooooh, this would NOT fly in my house. No talking back - and my mom's response would that it might be my hair, but she has to look at it. :p
Oh dear. I still don't agree but then just try to cut a very small bit and I would advise cuting it dry. Make sure they understand what you want them to cut and tell them that if they don't cut what you're asking for that you won't pay. They always tend to cut twice of what I asked for, that's why I perfer to trim at home.

StellaKatherine
July 4th, 2014, 04:47 PM
I was "forced" to cut my hair from almost classic lenght to about just under the shoulders. Because I was told by mom and many others that in my late 20s I was too old. It didn't look good and so on. You really should start telling, that it is your hair! Because with time this will get only worser.... One time you will find yourself having a bob because that is what appropriate for your age.....

If you decide to go to hairdresser. You have all the right to brush your own hair and prepare it for cutting if you want too. Be 100% strict how much can be cut. Tell clearly, that you DO NOT WANT TO LOOSE the lenght. The clearer you tell what you want - the better results you will get :)

FallingDarkness
July 4th, 2014, 04:49 PM
LOL LunaLuvsU I used to be that way. But I just got grounded for 'loosing my cool' when trying to set up a playstation. It's not going to work for me.

Nadine <3
July 4th, 2014, 04:51 PM
I would try and explain to your mom that you really do not want it cut because you're trying to grow it long. If she's still insistent on it, tell her it it your body, and your hair so it is your choice. Obviously 17 IS still a minor...but that doesn't mean she should be able to tell you what to do with your hair.

Good luck! My mom learned a looooong time ago that I'm just WAY to stubborn and trying to tell me what to do with my hair or clothes was a waste of her time LOL I had my own ideas :)

FallingDarkness
July 4th, 2014, 04:55 PM
Okay, I'll definitely try to talk sense into her. I might post a pic of my ends here tomorrow to get the LHC opinion on whether or not my ends are "dying", and if you guys think they're bad then I'll do something about it. Other than just being a little dry, I don't think they're in need of getting trimmed.
Hopefully that'll work, but my mom can be very stubborn and I don't want to be punished for a long while over my hair. :/ So worse comes to worst, I'll get a very light trim using your guys' advice.

Inconella
July 4th, 2014, 04:59 PM
Oh, jeez. What is it with moms and hair? Big hug, and much sympathy. I feel your pain, and I'm 45 years old.

coconutinsight
July 4th, 2014, 05:00 PM
Okay, I'll definitely try to talk sense into her. I might post a pic of my ends here tomorrow to get the LHC opinion on whether or not my ends are "dying", and if you guys think they're bad then I'll do something about it. Other than just being a little dry, I don't think they're in need of getting trimmed.
Hopefully that'll work, but my mom can be very stubborn and I don't want to be punished for a long while over my hair. :/ So worse comes to worst, I'll get a very light trim using your guys' advice.
Oh, but I think that's no readon to punish someone.. Can't you just tell her you got a trim :p ?

StellaKatherine
July 4th, 2014, 05:01 PM
I would suggst to just seat down with her and talk normally. Do not fight with her. Tell her what you are wanting to achieve, maybe learn new updos as well so that you can take your mom's eyes from your ends as well ? :)

Goodwyfe
July 4th, 2014, 05:06 PM
Would it help if you styled your hair in a way that the ends didn't show? Maybe even ask your mom if there is a style she doesn't find so displeasing that will allow you to go longer without a cut.

Loviatar
July 4th, 2014, 05:12 PM
Tell your hairdresser you want a dusting or a very light micro trim. Show them how much you want off, tell them to show you the first section they cut, and tell them you won't pay if they take more off. It works. It's brusque, but it works.

And wear hair up around your mom. If she can't see the ends she might not kvetch about them.

I hope you enjoy college. :)

two_wheels
July 4th, 2014, 05:13 PM
That sucks. I would make the stylist look at the ends so they can see they aren't split, ask them to take half an inch, and make them show you that half inch on your dry hair. It's a month's growth, maybe less given how young you are and that it's summer. That will be enough to make it all new-haircut neat which will please your mother, without losing major growth. And then hopefully she will be quiet for a while.

If you can, I would also try to tip them from your own money, mentioning indirectly at the outset that the tip is coming from you.

Edit: Loviatar's updo tip is spot on

cathair
July 4th, 2014, 05:15 PM
If it were me, I would say no. Your Mum should have no right to decide this for you, you are 17 not 8.

If you really can't say no and really don't want your hair cut then... When you get to the hairdressers, have a melt down. Throw a tantrum about how scared you are about having your hair cut. If you can, try some tears. No hairdresser will want to cut your hair then, whatever your mum says. If she won't treat you as mature enough to decide what to do with your own hair, then why should you behave in a mature way?

coconutinsight
July 4th, 2014, 05:17 PM
If it were me, I would say no. Your Mum should have no right to decide this for you, you are 17 not 8.

If you really can't say no and really don't want your hair cut then... When you get to the hairdressers, have a melt down. Throw a tantrum about how scared you are about having your hair cut. If you can, try some tears. No hairdresser will want to cut your hair then, whatever your mum says. If she won't treat you as mature enough to decide what to do with your own hair, then why should you behave in a mature way?

Completely agree

Nadine <3
July 4th, 2014, 05:24 PM
If it were me, I would say no. Your Mum should have no right to decide this for you, you are 17 not 8.

If you really can't say no and really don't want your hair cut then... When you get to the hairdressers, have a melt down. Throw a tantrum about how scared you are about having your hair cut. If you can, try some tears. No hairdresser will want to cut your hair then, whatever your mum says. If she won't treat you as mature enough to decide what to do with your own hair, then why should you behave in a mature way?

The immature child in me loves this idea. When I was little I threw myself on the floor kicking and screaming because my mom wouldn't let me dye my tips purple..I got her to let me. I was the coolest 7 year old at school. The teachers didn't like it because I went to a school that didn't allow it lol

Nadine <3
July 4th, 2014, 05:25 PM
If it were me, I would say no. Your Mum should have no right to decide this for you, you are 17 not 8.

If you really can't say no and really don't want your hair cut then... When you get to the hairdressers, have a melt down. Throw a tantrum about how scared you are about having your hair cut. If you can, try some tears. No hairdresser will want to cut your hair then, whatever your mum says. If she won't treat you as mature enough to decide what to do with your own hair, then why should you behave in a mature way?

The immature child in me loves this idea. When I was little I threw myself on the floor kicking and screaming because my mom wouldn't let me dye my tips purple..I got her to let me. I was the coolest 7 year old at school. The teachers didn't like it because I went to a school that didn't allow it lol

ravenreed
July 4th, 2014, 05:26 PM
As a parent, my house = my rules. I disagree with telling a minor child to disobey a parent, especially over something so silly. A trim is not the end of the world. The OP will be 18 and out of the house soon enough. When I used to go to the salon for a hair cut, I combed my own hair first, and never let them use product or blow dry afterwards.

lunalocks
July 4th, 2014, 05:27 PM
My mother insisted I cut my hair to shoulder from hip when I was 10. She made it sound glamorous. This was back in the 60s and the hairdresser cut my hair and curled it in a flip and sprayed it to death. I thought I was going to get a cute style that looked good every day. I didn't cut it again for the next 10 years.

If you can't get out of it, tell the stylist to take off 1/4 inch (he or she will end up taking 1/2 to 1 inch, most probably). It will look great and your mother will never know.

ravenreed
July 4th, 2014, 05:32 PM
As a parent, my house = my rules. I disagree with encouraging a minor child to disobey a parent, especially over something so silly. A trim is not the end of the world. The OP will be 18 and able to make all her own decisions soon enough. For the most part, I let my sons decide what to do with their clothing and hair, but when I felt it looked awful enough I did put my foot down. No matter what LHC decides is appropriate, the OP has to ultimately live with Mom and Mom's decision.

When I used to go to the salon, I would comb my own hair, and not let them use product or a blow dryer at the end.

ETA- Hm. Due to a hiccup, my post didn't show up so I retyped it.

lunalocks
July 4th, 2014, 05:33 PM
double post.

same problem as you, ravenreed.

spidermom
July 4th, 2014, 05:36 PM
I think when you are living under a parent's roof and your cost of living is being paid for by the parent(s), you pretty much have to cooperate with what they want. I hope your mom doesn't think she gets to tell the stylist how much to cut, but she might. Good luck!

cathair
July 4th, 2014, 05:36 PM
As a parent, my house = my rules. I disagree with encouraging a minor child to disobey a parent, especially over something so silly. A trim is not the end of the world. The OP will be 18 and able to make all her own decisions soon enough. For the most part, I let my sons decide what to do with their clothing and hair, but when I felt it looked awful enough I did put my foot down. No matter what LHC decides is appropriate, the OP has to ultimately live with Mom and Mom's decision.

When I used to go to the salon, I would comb my own hair, and not let them use product or a blow dryer at the end.

ETA- Hm. Due to a hiccup, my post didn't show up so I retyped it.

In the UK you can leave home, get married, join the army and kill people at 16. If you can do those things, I think you can decide what to do with your hair. Possibly not the case in the US, I don't know. I think it's ridiculous any parent could force the child to do something with their hair at this age. I have no idea who is benefits.

ravenreed
July 4th, 2014, 05:43 PM
In my house, you would be welcome to do any of those things quite immediately. Then you could make all your own decisions.


In the UK you can leave home, get married, join the army and kill people at 16. If you can do those things, I think you can decide what to do with your hair. Possibly not the case in the US, I don't know. I think it's ridiculous any parent could force the child to do something with their hair at this age. I have no idea who is benefits.

two_wheels
July 4th, 2014, 05:50 PM
I'm in between the her-house-her-rules and the 17-is-adult opinions, but really think a one-off trim of 1/4-1/2" is not a big deal in the long run to keep everyone happy. A month's growth for a quiet life. I know a month is a long time when you're 17 but :shrug:

cathair
July 4th, 2014, 05:57 PM
As a parent, my house = my rules. I disagree with encouraging a minor child to disobey a parent, especially over something so silly. A trim is not the end of the world. The OP will be 18 and able to make all her own decisions soon enough. For the most part, I let my sons decide what to do with their clothing and hair, but when I felt it looked awful enough I did put my foot down. No matter what LHC decides is appropriate, the OP has to ultimately live with Mom and Mom's decision.

When I used to go to the salon, I would comb my own hair, and not let them use product or a blow dryer at the end.

ETA- Hm. Due to a hiccup, my post didn't show up so I retyped it.

I think most people would rather their child was happy with their hair than flipped out and left home. OP doesn't even want to do anything crazy with it. Her request is prefectly reasonable.

If it's so silly, then why would you force your child to do something that would make them unhappy? OP's hair doesn't look awful. It looks very healthy and tidy add it is.

Maktub
July 4th, 2014, 05:57 PM
At least where I live (Canada), autonomy on one's body, including medical decisions and patient-confidentiality, is pretty much something a 14 years old has except under some very restrictive circumstances (ex. if refusal of treatment will lead to death, etc...). A 14 years old absolutely has autonomy over a hair cut no matter if living under parents' roof or not... even if if means a green uneven spontenaous buzzcut or a head full of splits (as I said, at least it's the case where I live. Probably different elsewhere...)

A small trimm is no big deal per se. Imposing it to a 17 years old who doesn't want it seems rather strange to me.

Best of luck to you OP !

LoveAngelBeauty
July 4th, 2014, 06:00 PM
I think you should get the trim. It's not really a big enough thing to argue over, imo. Also, maybe your hair does look bad. I'm not saying it does for sure, but it's possible. Sometimes people just get defensive when others comment on their looks. For example, my sister's hair has looked bad for a while and my mother is always suggesting certain things to her and she gets really defensive about it.

RapunzelKat
July 4th, 2014, 06:07 PM
I would definitely suggest sitting down with your mom and have a conversation with her (not an argument!) about why you don't want to cut your hair. Let her know what you're doing to improve its condition and let her know you're not happy about her making this decision for you. Also listen to her reasons why she wants it trimmed. Maybe you can come to a nice compromise - for example, wait a month and see of you can get your ends less dry and then agree to a small trim if they don't improve. Having a calm adult conversation will probably serve you better than throwing a fit.

Personally, I feel that 17 is plenty old enough to make your own decisions about your hair. (I am not a parent myself, though, so :shrug:) I can say for sure, however, that my parents never would have forced a haircut on me at 17, unless they thought my hair was endangering me in some way.

ooglipoo
July 4th, 2014, 06:26 PM
I'd do a self-trim and then call my mom into the bathroom and tell her no problem, show her the results, show her the cut hair, and tell her I just saved her $20. Ask to go out for ice cream afterwards. :D

ravenreed
July 4th, 2014, 06:33 PM
In some families, looking presentable is a big deal and many parents feel responsible to make sure that their children learn how to do just that. Even as a teen person, almost ready to leave home. Perhaps mom really feels that the OP's hair isn't up to snuff. LHC has some very funny ideas when it comes to how hair should look. I think that gets forgotten.

I find the idea of 14 year olds making their own medical decisions very strange. Our brains are not fully developed until our mid-twenties and that means understanding long range repercussions of our decisions is often lacking. I can't say that I agree that this is a good thing.



At least where I live (Canada), autonomy on one's body, including medical decisions and patient-confidentiality, is pretty much something a 14 years old has except under some very restrictive circumstances (ex. if refusal of treatment will lead to death, etc...). A 14 years old absolutely has autonomy over a hair cut no matter if living under parents' roof or not... even if if means a green uneven spontenaous buzzcut or a head full of splits (as I said, at least it's the case where I live. Probably different elsewhere...)

A small trimm is no big deal per se. Imposing it to a 17 years old who doesn't want it seems rather strange to me.

Best of luck to you OP !

Maktub
July 4th, 2014, 06:46 PM
Imposing it to a 17 years old who doesn't want it seems rather strange to me.


I find the idea of 14 year olds making their own medical decisions very strange.

Yeah, cultural differences always seem strange don't they :) I think child autonomy was developed / influenced here in part in link with international conventions on the rights of the child (?). But each system surely has it's flaws and benefits for sure, and have been adopted in a particular contexts and cultural beliefs.

Back to OP, only you know what is going on in your home and what is the best reaction to have towards your mother, and if it is really important to you or something that's not so much of a big deal. Maybe try to think about what is better for your relationship and in the long run for you. Conversation on how you feel (not dispute) and compromises are often a wise moves, as others mentioned.

ravenreed
July 4th, 2014, 06:56 PM
You might be surprised. There are a lot of parents who are much tougher than I was.


I think most people would rather their child was happy with their hair than flipped out and left home. OP doesn't even want to do anything crazy with it. Her request is prefectly reasonable.

If it's so silly, then why would you force your child to do something that would make them unhappy? OP's hair doesn't look awful. It looks very healthy and tidy add it is.

Bene
July 4th, 2014, 06:58 PM
Short of physical violence, she can't MAKE you get your hair cut. I say a quiet and simple "No" and absolute refusal. No screaming, no tears, no whining, no tantrums. No protestations about "but it's MY hair" or "the ends are fine!"


If you want to be treated like an adult, start acting like one. Keep your hair, if you get grounded over this, take your punishment like a grownup who is aware of the consequences of their actions.

Saldana
July 4th, 2014, 07:09 PM
Maybe you could state your objections to your mother "I do NOT want to trim my hair". If she insists you go anyway, maybe you could state your objections to the hairdresser. "I do NOT consent to having my hair trimmed. I am still a minor, and my mother is insisting that I come for a trim, but I want to let you know - I do not wish to do this, and I do not consent to it."

.....If I were a hairdresser, I would not trim the hair of a teenager who explicitly and clearly stated that s/he did not consent.

trolleypup
July 4th, 2014, 07:28 PM
Ewww. I personally don't understand parents who want to control their kids down to a minor haircut, but I understand many parents are like this or (much) worse.

For the sake of peace get the microtrim, keep your head down, count the days til you are out of there, and never look (go) back.

mz_butterfly
July 4th, 2014, 08:20 PM
I have found that almost every "forced" trim ends up being a "forced BIG CHOP"

If your mother is demanding you to get a "trim" she is most likely going to demand the hairdresser do as she say because "she is paying for it" and it's going to end up a mess.

Mother or not, find a way to stay out of that hairdressers chair and that whole salon. You will end up sorry and then you're stuck growing out a crappy cut. Then, when it starts to grow again, mom will demand a trim and we're back to the cycle,

If you don't stand up for yourself and say NO, then it will just keep getting harder and harder to say no and you'll continue being the victim of this form of oppression, control and abuse.

mz_butterfly
July 4th, 2014, 08:40 PM
What kind of punishment would you get for refusing? Why not refuse and just deal with her so called punishment?


Okay, I'll definitely try to talk sense into her. I might post a pic of my ends here tomorrow to get the LHC opinion on whether or not my ends are "dying", and if you guys think they're bad then I'll do something about it. Other than just being a little dry, I don't think they're in need of getting trimmed.
Hopefully that'll work, but my mom can be very stubborn and I don't want to be punished for a long while over my hair. :/ So worse comes to worst, I'll get a very light trim using your guys' advice.

mz_butterfly
July 4th, 2014, 08:44 PM
As a parent, my house = my rules. I disagree with telling a minor child to disobey a parent, especially over something so silly. A trim is not the end of the world. The OP will be 18 and out of the house soon enough. When I used to go to the salon for a hair cut, I combed my own hair first, and never let them use product or blow dry afterwards.

You are looking at this from the perspective of a mother who doesn't want her child to disobey.

Think about it from a longhair point of view, what if someone, anyone, forced a haircut on you and they said they would trim but ended up taking off several inches? You would be highly upset and I don't think the OP has to do anything to her hair because her mother says so and the fact that she is a few months shy of 18. That is preposterous.

Darkhorse1
July 4th, 2014, 08:46 PM
If you are old enough to care for your hair, you're old enough to make decisions regarding how it's managed. Tell her you'll get a trim, but you're going ALONE. Wet hair is much easier to cut, but make sure you SHOW them, on their comb, how much you want taken off.
A side note? This is a bit of visual trickery and I don't advocate you tricking your mom, but try doing a rag curl at the bottom--it gives the illusion of a trim without losing any length. Perhaps just put some rags at the ends over night and see what she says? That may be a 'happy medium'. But, really, it's your hair. You can explain to them why you aren't trimming it. I don't know your age, but I was making decisions about my hair at 10 years old.

Darkhorse1
July 4th, 2014, 08:52 PM
Just re-read the posts, and I do agree --I would not advocate any advice that would be disrespectful of your mom, but in the same sense, perhaps just sit down and have a heart to heart and explain to her you want very long hair. Then, see what the happy medium is. It's not like you are going goth and dying it black, getting nose piercings and tattoos. ;)

Course, I do like the one poster's suggestion of having a fit in the salon, because I'm that kind of adult who is a smart a$$, but no---I'm sure you will find a happy medium with your mom. Good luck!

Jumper
July 4th, 2014, 08:57 PM
As a parent, my house = my rules. I disagree with telling a minor child to disobey a parent, especially over something so silly. A trim is not the end of the world. The OP will be 18 and out of the house soon enough. When I used to go to the salon for a hair cut, I combed my own hair first, and never let them use product or blow dry afterwards.

Yeah, I would say there are battles worth picking as a child and this isn't one of them.

I did always get my hair trimmed until I left for college (and occasionally dyed due to sunbleached ends, at my mothers insistence), after I left it was my own choices. The battle I "won" in this case was my hair having a blunt trim of an inch or two at the ends, not having it "cut" into any sort of "style".

I'm back at home (life as a college graduate is rough, I'm tellin ya... Couldn't find a job right off the bat. Now I have one and I pay rent to my parents... easier than finding an apartment where I can take my big dog) and now my mom either doesn't care or doesn't say anything. Really probably doesn't say anything because she showed me this gorgeous pic of a style with long layers and I agreed to try it and it got totally screwed up and I bawled like crazy because the shortest "layer) was barely brushing my shoulders (like 1/3 of my regular length) and now I absolutely hate my haircut and the end result is she no longer tries to get me to cut it. Our whole discussion now is usually "I hate this cut so much. It's going to take a minimum of three years if not four to grow back to even. It's awful." And her response is usually "shut up."

Just get a trim, it won't set you back much and you'll have nice feeling ends.

ETA: yes, the long layers was my choice, and my bad cut to deal with, but the end result is no more "encouragement" to cut and of course they're not punishing me if I opt to not cut.

mz_butterfly
July 4th, 2014, 09:11 PM
The worrisome part of the "just go get the cut like your mother says and it will be alright in the end" is, what if this is exactly what happens to her? What if that stylist does everything mommy says and mommy says "cut it short"!!??

That is what I would fear. Not the fact of getting a small trim. but some people think trims are several inches, or a whole different hair style and hair cut altogether.

I am amazed at how many people are telling someone else to do what they wouldn't want to do themselves. I would not give in, it is my hair, I care for it, it has taken me months/years to get my hair to this length and I refuse to allow anyone to dictate to me or force me into a salon chair to get their idea of a trim.




Yeah, I would say there are battles worth picking as a child and this isn't one of them.

I did always get my hair trimmed until I left for college (and occasionally dyed due to sunbleached ends, at my mothers insistence), after I left it was my own choices. The battle I "won" in this case was my hair having a blunt trim of an inch or two at the ends, not having it "cut" into any sort of "style".

I'm back at home (life as a college graduate is rough, I'm tellin ya... Couldn't find a job right off the bat. Now I have one and I pay rent to my parents... easier than finding an apartment where I can take my big dog) and now my mom either doesn't care or doesn't say anything. Really probably doesn't say anything because she showed me this gorgeous pic of a style with long layers and I agreed to try it and it got totally screwed up and I bawled like crazy because the shortest "layer) was barely brushing my shoulders (like 1/3 of my regular length) and now I absolutely hate my haircut and the end result is she no longer tries to get me to cut it. Our whole discussion now is usually "I hate this cut so much. It's going to take a minimum of three years if not four to grow back to even. It's awful." And her response is usually "shut up."

Just get a trim, it won't set you back much and you'll have nice feeling ends.

ETA: yes, the long layers was my choice, and my bad cut to deal with, but the end result is no more "encouragement" to cut and of course they're not punishing me if I opt to not cut.

ravenreed
July 4th, 2014, 09:26 PM
Trims don't scare me. I regularly trim several inches off so that I have the kind of hair the constantly gets compliments in public because my ends look great. As a person who came out of the foster care system, getting a forced haircut would have been the least of my worries. I find the fuss baffling, to be honest.


You are looking at this from the perspective of a mother who doesn't want her child to disobey.

Think about it from a longhair point of view, what if someone, anyone, forced a haircut on you and they said they would trim but ended up taking off several inches? You would be highly upset and I don't think the OP has to do anything to her hair because her mother says so and the fact that she is a few months shy of 18. That is preposterous.

Undomiel
July 4th, 2014, 09:30 PM
Short of physical violence, she can't MAKE you get your hair cut. I say a quiet and simple "No" and absolute refusal. No screaming, no tears, no whining, no tantrums. No protestations about "but it's MY hair" or "the ends are fine!"


If you want to be treated like an adult, start acting like one. Keep your hair, if you get grounded over this, take your punishment like a grownup who is aware of the consequences of their actions.

I think this is solid advice.

mz_butterfly
July 4th, 2014, 10:01 PM
This is not the same situation that you were in, it is her mother, not just a person who has control over her.

Also, your trims are your choice, that is what I mean, if it's your choice, then all is well. But I am not even sure this will end up in a trim but a full fledged hair cut. If someone is forcing you into something and telling you it's just a simple trim, there is no telling what shall really happen in the chair.

I trim my hair every 6 months or so, it isn't a huge deal to me either. But the difference is, I am making that choice, it is not being forced upon me. :flower:

And, as an adult, well into my 50's, I would be highly upset at a "forced" hair cut. It's controlling and degrading. The OP is not a child, she is a young woman who is almost a legal adult. Where does the dictatorship end? I understand "my house my rules, do as I say" But that is usually a curfew, the style of clothes one wears, especially if the parent is footing the bill.

But the young womans hair looks neat, tidy and cared for. She doesn't look like she is abusing it or walking around with it unkempt.

My worry is, what does mother think is a trim? I guess this is what the OP needs to discuss before agreeing to anything. If she cant stand up for herself now, what will happen in the chair if the mother says, cut it into a bob, or a pixie? It will be all the harder to stop the process at that time. I am not saying this WILL happen, but I am a bit suspicious of anyones motives when they are forcing something on me.

Maybe the OP can get a friend to snip off 1/8 of an inch and be done with it. I hope there is another solution that pleases everyone and doesn't end up in disaster for the OP. It would be a huge setback and devastating to come out with a horribly short cut when she was coerced into going in for a trim.

Any time that anyone forces another person to do something to their body that they don't want to do, it's wrong. We are taught that our bodies belong to us and nobody can force us to do anything that we don't want to. But the rules change when it's mother or father and you live in their house.

I know it's an extreme example, but what if the OP got pregnant and told the parents about it and they tried to force her into an abortion? What then? Does the OP have to do what the parents say because she lives in their house, she is 17 and not "legally" an adult and has learned that she can't say no, or go against her mothers wishes lest she be punished?

Yes, it's an extreme scenario, but not impossible or unthinkable.

To the OP, I mean no disrespect when I made that scenario.

I am also not suggesting that you disobey or disrespect your mother or father. Personally, I don't think that NOT getting a trim is being disobedient or disrespectful. I think that we should have the right to make choices about our hair when we are 17 and even a lot younger. Your hair is not out of the norm or an extreme hair style or hair color. There is nothing about your hair that would make anyone say "oh dear, she needs that cut, and now!"

I hope you find a way to take care of this situation in the most pleasant way possible. Before agreeing to a salon visit ask what your mother considers a trim. If you end up at a salon, be very firm about how much hair you want removed, be it 1/8 inch or 1/4 inch and no more. Show the stylist what you want removed and have her show you, at all times, what she is removing. Explain that this is forced and you agreed to a microtrim and nothing more and look in the mirror at all times. Ask for a hand mirror so you can see behind you if you aren't facing the mirrors.





Trims don't scare me. I regularly trim several inches off so that I have the kind of hair the constantly gets compliments in public because my ends look great. As a person who came out of the foster care system, getting a forced haircut would have been the least of my worries. I find the fuss baffling, to be honest.

meteor
July 4th, 2014, 10:10 PM
The question goes beyond the actual "trim - no trim". (I'm sure at 17, the OP is old enough and self-aware enough to know when she wants to trim her hair.)
The question is really about control over one's own body.
Somebody wrote: "My house = my rules." Exactly. But, I believe, even more so: "My body = my rules."
If not getting the trim/cut is very important for the OP, she needs to stand her ground. And if it's "just a trim", the mother herself would be wise to realize that "it's just a trim, thank God my daughter isn't trying to get tattoos, plastic surgeries and shave her head, she's only asking to stretch a trim or grow her hair out, what a relief! :)". Since your hair choice is not limiting your ability to succeed at school, work, socialize and is in no way impairing your health, hygiene or any healthy activities, the trim is a non-issue and it's your mom who should be wise enough to let it go.
I recommend having a very calm, grown-up conversation with your mom about why you don't want to cut and maybe show her this thread if she's having trouble seeing the situation from a more detached, objective perspective.
We have a lot of adults on the LHC who, decades after, STILL clearly remember how moms forced haircuts on them. It's really best not to alienate kids over something so trivial.


Ooooh, this would NOT fly in my house. No talking back - and my mom's response would that it might be my hair, but she has to look at it. :p
I'm very sorry to hear this :( If that was my mom, I'd say: "How would you feel if your boss told you this at work about your hair?... Now please understand that you are being that boss to me. Yes, it does come off that aggressive from a figure of authority."
We advocate about "not being here to decorate other people's world" and this extends to all people equally, not just people over 18 or 21.

I hope this situation will be resolved well for you and your mom. I hope you guys will bond and understand each other's positions on such matters better. And I wish you both the best of luck! :blossom:

woodswanderer
July 4th, 2014, 10:22 PM
Ugh...I feel for you. Maybe your mom is not a controlling person overall, but this situation makes wonder if she is. If she is a controlling person, it likely won't go away when you turn 18. My mom still attempts to control me at times even though I'm 30, married, have a job, and own a home. Weigh the pros and cons of trying to stand up to your mom by what the likely consequences would be, then pick your battles. Either way remain calm and mature. I would get a dry cut if you go that route. Last time I got a wet cut it was uneven when it dried because I am wavy. Check my avatar to compare to your hair type, because YMMV.

spidermom
July 4th, 2014, 10:59 PM
I just wanted to throw in there that I always let my children choose what they wanted to do with their hair, except that in the case of DD wanting a perm, she had to save up the money herself because I wouldn't pay. Best as I can remember, my mother never forced styles on me, either. So I can't directly relate.

jeanniet
July 5th, 2014, 12:06 AM
I think there is really something wrong when a parent is that invested in how an almost-adult child chooses to have her hair. We raise our kids to be responsible adults (we hope), and part of that is making their own decisions. My son has beautiful curly hair; I don't like it when he cuts it (buzzed it off last week), but I can't imagine forbidding him to do it. I have relatives who would have beaten their kids for not cutting their hair. A parent is not supposed to be a tyrant.

So I would show your mom you can be an adult. Ask her to sit down with you and discuss this reasonably and rationally. If she won't do it, then you can still make an adult decision as to whether you are willing to go along with her wishes or not. She can't force you to do it, but you can choose to do it. And if this is a typical pattern of behavior for her, I don't think this will get better when you really are an adult.

Johannah
July 5th, 2014, 01:09 AM
Like others said, talk to her.

You also want to cut your hair as dry as possible. Think of paper: what goes best? Can you imagine what happens if you cut wet paper with a scissor? Same thing with hair!

CurlMonster
July 5th, 2014, 01:12 AM
I am really sorry this is happening to you. I am also 17 and I can't imagine my parents forcing me to do particular things with my hair, I have had control over it since I was old enough to keep it brushed.
You say your ends are a little dry - have you looked into any possible causes for the dryness? Maybe clarifying or doing some more conditioning could improve the appearance a little. I also like the suggestion of keeping it up so that the ends aren't visible and seeing if your mum finds that acceptable.
If you do end up going for the trim, I've heard good things about barber shops for getting exactly the trim you want. They are very unlikely to try to push layers or new styles on you, and are more likely to just take off what you want, straight across the bottom, and let you comb it to boot.
Good luck, and big hugs for dealing with your mum. This is a nasty situation to be in. :grouphug:

FallingDarkness
July 5th, 2014, 01:16 AM
OMG. SO many replies! I left for a few hours and there was 6 pages of LHC advice waiting for me! LOL.

Could my hair use a trim? Probably. Does it NEED a trim? Not at all! As long as my hemline is still thick I'm happy.
Part of me really would like to say, "No, I'm not getting a trim, it's my hair, stop worrying about me, get out of my life." But that's disrespectful, and my mom would ground me from my cell phone, computer, and car. Which would = boring life.
And even though I am just months away from adulthood, I literally just turned 17 a little over a week ago. :P
I don't want to be on bad terms with my mom, but I love having my hair. Now that I'm past BSL (stretched) I feel like I almost have "long" hair which is what I've been after for a while now. To lose any of that would devastate me. Sure, I might be a little too attached to my hair, but it's one of my only features that I really like about myself.
If I could be guaranteed only 1/8 of an inch off then I could be fine with the trim, maybe even 1/4, but anything above that would probably cause me deep regret.
I got a LOT of advice, which I'm very appreciative of, and I'm DEFINITELY going to talk to my mom and see if I can get her to see my point of view, but if things don't go my way then I'm going into the salon, combing my hair, showing the hair dresser exactly what I want, and hope for the best. I think that it'll be the best way to avoid any unwanted drama.
And as soon as I'm out of the house (just what, 14 months from now?) I'm never getting a trim until I'm past my goal length. Or maybe by then I'll have a new goal. LHC keeps roping me into that. :P
Thank you again, you guys are all wonderful. We'll see what happens.

RoseofCimarron
July 5th, 2014, 04:18 AM
Aww, I'm sorry that you are in this position. I've been in something similar, and it is not fun! :grouphug:

From your posts, you sound like a mature young woman who should have control over your own body (including hair). I second what others are saying about talking with your mother and trying to reason. Since you are at BSL, do you think that you could self-trim? That is one of the best ways to make sure that you know how much is being cut off. Would your mother accept that as a "trim" (some of the people in my family wouldn't)? It can look very nice if done well. Thick hair can be kind of tricky though. I just chopped off 14-16 inches myself using Feye's method and some of my friends and family (who are obsessed with hair/skin/makeup/etc. and HAVE to go to the salon every other week for something :rolleyes:) thought I had finally gone back to a professional! :laugh: One of the things that helped me get my parents to stop making me go to salons was me telling them how much money they would save. I actually looked up the price of a normal haircut, and then found other research that showed that salons charge more for trims on longer hair. Another thing to look at for self-trims is the Crea-Clip. I've never used it myself, but a friend of mine does and she loves it!

If there is no reasoning with your mother and you have to get a trim, you are gonna have to suck it up and get one. :) It ain't fun, but sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to keep the peace. Again, I second what others are saying about asking to comb your own hair, possibly getting it cut dry (due to wave pattern and that wet hair breaks easier than dry, what about coming to the salon with your hair pre-washed and pre-combed?), bringing a hand mirror so you can watch what they are doing(!), going alone (so no one can give directions other than you), and you might want to think about telling them that you are growing it out to donate it. The hair stylist might not cut as much.

Good luck! I hope all goes well when you talk with your mother! And, if the worst-case scenario does happen (heaven forbid), remember that your hair will grow back and we'll be here for you with support if you need someone to vent to. :D

Tini'sNewHair
July 5th, 2014, 04:29 AM
Geesh even my 6 year old has a say on this. Your mum needs to lighten up and stop acting so childish.

StellaKatherine
July 5th, 2014, 04:46 AM
FallingDarkness, you are talking like a very mature person! Just talk with your mom like you just write to us! We can give you a millions of advices, but you are the one who live with the consenquences.

Dreams_in_Pink
July 5th, 2014, 05:08 AM
I always stood up for my own sake against my parents. I love them, but sometimes i think they make wrong assumptions based on their own experiences. I'm just about 25 and still have fights with my mom regarding my weight (she wants me to gain but i don't) and i've fought my dad about my career choices when i was around your age (he wanted me to be a teacher, i wanted to be a designer).

Big problems, i cannot deny. I had to go through so much stress because of this. But in the end, he found out that i was right about being a designer.

That's what i think you should do: stand up for yourself. Whether it's a minor thing like haircut or a major one like career choice, you have the brainpower to make your own decisions. It's easier said than done, but in the long run, that's how you'll become an individual: To make choices and survive through the consequences (if there's any).

cathair
July 5th, 2014, 05:34 AM
Short of physical violence, she can't MAKE you get your hair cut. I say a quiet and simple "No" and absolute refusal. No screaming, no tears, no whining, no tantrums. No protestations about "but it's MY hair" or "the ends are fine!"

If you want to be treated like an adult, start acting like one. Keep your hair, if you get grounded over this, take your punishment like a grownup who is aware of the consequences of their actions.

I like this advice. You shouldn't have to explain yourself, or bargain really. It is far more mature than having a salon tantrum, but I fear it wouldn't work.


The worrisome part of the "just go get the cut like your mother says and it will be alright in the end" is, what if this is exactly what happens to her? What if that stylist does everything mommy says and mommy says "cut it short"!!??

That is what I would fear. Not the fact of getting a small trim. but some people think trims are several inches, or a whole different hair style and hair cut altogether.

I am amazed at how many people are telling someone else to do what they wouldn't want to do themselves. I would not give in, it is my hair, I care for it, it has taken me months/years to get my hair to this length and I refuse to allow anyone to dictate to me or force me into a salon chair to get their idea of a trim.

Wish there was a like button for this. This has happened to me. Mother says it will be alright and that not much will be taken off and then end up with 6 inches+ missing.

Then when I am upset because so much has been cut off, when she promised only half and inch. She would point to the pile of hair on the floor and says I am over reacting, because 'it had to come off, there is hardly any hair on the floor, that's how little you have lost' followed by 'it's only hair, it grows back, it will be even longer than it was in a couple months time'. We all know that isn't true. It might have been a small pile to her, because it wasn't the size of a cat, but it was a huge pile to me. The size of the pile usually bears little relation to how much length you fee you have lost. I hope you don't have to feel that kind of regret.

I also agree with the poster that said if you don't stand up for yourself now, this will continue into your adult life. It's also true that you have to pick your battles. This one might not be worth it to you, there might be other issues more important to you. But I hope if that is the case, you can stand up to your mother about other things. That isn't being disrespectful, it's just being respectful to yourself and your own feelings and interests. At the end of the day, you have to live with how you feel, she doesn't.


The question goes beyond the actual "trim - no trim". (I'm sure at 17, the OP is old enough and self-aware enough to know when she wants to trim her hair.)
The question is really about control over one's own body.
Somebody wrote: "My house = my rules." Exactly. But, I believe, even more so: "My body = my rules."

Agree with this wholeheartedly.

Best of luck, I hope you and your Mum both find a way to a outcome you are both happy with.

hexbomb
July 5th, 2014, 05:36 AM
I always get concerned when parents take a choice like this out of their children's hands. It reminds me of my best friend, who wasn't allowed to do this and that and is now completely dependent on her parents at twenty-seven and unable to change it, and many others who were hurt by "my house, my rules." Not that I am suggesting the OP's parents are anything like that, they're allowing her to go to college, so they're obviously not, but, to me, it shows a profound lack of respect and understanding to force her to do something with her hair.

Obviously, the answer has to be to talk about it and try to be rational rather than emotional, and I hope it goes well.

embee
July 5th, 2014, 06:55 AM
Is there a way to get ahead of this?

Call the (a?) salon and get a trim, your decision, your directions. Get a receipt. Pay for it yourself. Leave the mom out of it altogether? Can you do that?

A barber shop might be better - I've heard good things about them - a simple one, not some uptown men's hair style shop, just where old guys go to get their hair cut....

Inconella
July 5th, 2014, 07:07 AM
You know, there's a good chance that the stylist has been faced with this scenario before, and knows exactly what to do. Many years ago, I worked at the Clinique counter in a big department store. It was very common for mothers and daughters to come in, both frazzled nearly to tears over arguments about the daughter wearing makeup. The daughter was old enough to start wearing makeup, but the mother was afraid we would make her look like Joan Collins circa 1985. I always knew just what to do. The daughters always left happy with their new looks, polished but age-appropriate, and and the mothers left relieved.

Is there any way your mom would let you choose the stylist? You could interview a few and see if you could find one sympathetic to your cause.

Hrtchoco
July 5th, 2014, 07:38 AM
I feel when comes to mom, the important thing is to find a balance. You can not win all the battles and certainly do not lose all the battles. If my mom tells me I need to change something about myself, I would listen to her advice, analyze it, if she's right, I'd do it. If I think she's wrong, I would talk to her and explain why I think it's wrong and listen to what she has to say(unfortunately, my mom is right all the time, even the times when I thought she's wrong and did things my way).

If it's an opinion type of situation, it depends on who feels stronger about it. If my mom wants me to get a trim, I'd do it just because I don't care enough. If she wants me to dye my hair, I would tell her no because that does some serious damage to it.

In the case we both feel strongly about something, it's half and half. The important thing is, you don't want her to control your life, you also don't want her to feel like you never listen.

StellaKatherine
July 5th, 2014, 07:39 AM
Yeah, maybe choose the stylist who has actually a longer hair ??? I had best results with a girl who had almost a waist lenght hair, she knew exactly what I ment and how much I wanted to cut off!

AmberJewel
July 5th, 2014, 07:55 AM
I agree that you should calmly express your opinions to your mom, but I think you should also be respectful since you're still living in their house and under their authority (not a popular statement, I know, but it's true). My parents would be considered really strict, but they also listen to me and allow me to make many of my own decisions. They've never tried to interfere with my hair or career choices. That said, is a quarter inch trim really worth all the stress and fighting in the home? If you absolutely can't get out of it then submit gracefully and l have fun with your mom. You will show a lot of maturity and wisdom. Then you can wear the hair up most of the time so nobody can judge the health of it but you.

I apologize if I've completely misread the situation, but please don't overreact to your mother trying to help you with your hair even if she is misguided.

eadwine
July 5th, 2014, 08:04 AM
There is a very easy way out of this. Agree to get a half inch trim. It grows back in no time, it's trimmed and mom should be happy.

If she is not, then well.. too bad for her.

As for my house = my rules and if not you can up and leave, yeah that happened to my ex husband, it left two people's lives (his and mine) ruined for years, I would be a little less strict.

Agnes Hannah
July 5th, 2014, 08:07 AM
The last time my mum made me have a trim, I came out with a massive cut, it was awful, I looked like boy which was not what I wanted at all. I was nine years old. I am now a mum myself, I have two boys, and I always ask them what they want, well actually they tell me as I cut their hair. My boys are 18 and 16, and I respect their decisions.

If I had a daughter, she would have also had the opportunity to say what she wanted, although I would have tried to get her to grow it long first.

Maybe the OP's mum is seeing her daughter growing up becoming a young woman, and feels that she is losing her. Just my slant on things. Maybe she is acting like this because she feels she is losing her child, which is difficult for a mum. Ultimately, you have to let go to let children be the people they want to be. That is the hardest job in being a mum.

Just wishing you the very best, you are in a difficult position, but it is your hair, and you should be able to chose when to cut. Keep talking to your mum, and stay strong. Hugs x

Peggy E.
July 5th, 2014, 08:07 AM
such good advice, but the one thing that is probably happening here is the mother is not good at accepting the fact that her daughter is no longer a child who she can control and usher at will.

the fact you are leaving for school next year and beyond mom's reach may well be pushing her into more willful acts - such as grounding for improper behavior when setting up playstation. did you throw it out the window and injure someone passing by?

you are old enough to definitely be making your own choices - you need to make your own choices, the safe choices in a safe setting so you grow in confidence and gain that sense of pride and independence you need to succeed in the world into which you are entering. your mom needs to allow you to do this and stop fighting you tooth-and-nail every step of the way.

she's raised a smart, sassy young woman who knows what she wants. congratulations to you both. but if you really, really don't want to trim your hair and are willing to draw that line in the sand, this might be a good time to take that stand. it's a personal issue relating to an area that will not harm you in any way, allows you to make the choice in your own style, decide what is best for you without any risk.

maybe you should try wearing your hair up around your mom so she doesn't see those "awful" ends!

good luck. remember, it's not always easy to be a mom, but sometimes it's up to their kids to let them know when they're making a mistake. your mom is making a mistake here. it's up to you to decide whether it is in you now to help her learn her new role in your life, as she evolves into an equal, a woman who will offer advice - not set forth unreasonable rules - or let her continue on her usual course.

this is a turning point for you both, but you have to also demonstrate you have the maturity in which she can place her trust.

gosh, life is hard....!

Cichelle
July 5th, 2014, 10:11 AM
This is why I don't let my daughter use message boards/forums.

OP, do not throw a fit, be disrespectful or make a huge deal of this. It seems you are mature and already know that is not the way to go. It will likely backfire and it is so not worth it, IMO.

Personally, I would not force my daughter to get a trim or haircut. But there are other things I would strongly enforce. Your mother's side of this story, from her own perspective, is missing from here so we really don't know what she is thinking or why this is so important to her. Try to respectfully negotiate a compromise. Best wishes to you.

SleepyTangles
July 5th, 2014, 10:41 AM
I frankly wouldn't go. Full stop. I know how bossy can be a stubborn mum, but more you give up the less she'll became acquainted to losing her (loving) grip on you. Even if she is making this for your "good" I think you should not let her have her way.
Is the kind of mum that would slap or resort to physical violence in any way? Is the only thing that worries me. If you have to get beaten for a trim, get a trim for heaven's sake...
But if this wasn't the case I just wont go. Period. No need to scream fight or even talk. If she can't physically drag yourself to the hairdresser, you won't have any trim.

But for all the poster I read all the my house = my rules: really? So a child is not allowed any independent thought of his/her own :confused:?
I'm really sorry, but I think its ridiculous to demand blind obedience on a matter like hair. I get clothes, I get everything... but not this. Its like forcing someone to wear a blue blouse instead of a green blouse.
Jeez, if the OP was to have a japanese/brazilian blowout, ridden with nasty chemical carcinogenic stuff I would have taken her side: after all its harmful for your health.

No one should expect obedience when the request lacks any sense, even a parent.
Just my opinion.

truepeacenik
July 5th, 2014, 10:51 AM
I answer a variant of this question with regularity on another board: "how to get my parents to let me go vegetarian?"

Here is the standard advice:
1. Do your research. In this case, have a definition of healthy hair.
2. Assess your choice as it relates to health (and in this case, appearance). Is your hair healthy? Is it tidy? Fashionable isn't in play (but it might be for mum)
3. Take the assessment from 1 and 2 to the parent(s).
4. Find their concerns. Acknowledge them. In this case, is it the ends alone? Do you not style it much? Would styling in some form be a happy spot?
5. State your concerns. Be clear and logical. Even when using an argument on the emotional side. Be calm and collected.
6. Find a middle ground. In your case, I'd suggest a minor trim and conditioning treatment, that isn't heat based. Set parameters for the middle ground. Maybe mum isn't present at the trim.

Many people on the forum do trim. It might be self trims, or a much more spaced out schedule, or by the phases of the moon, but it's trimming. S&D is a form of trimming.

Tall Blond(ish)
July 5th, 2014, 12:35 PM
I'm not actually giving OP advice, but simply expressing my thoughts from reading these posts. Do parents have the right to control a minor child living in their home? Yes, but I find it a terrible shame that a parent is more interested in controlling every aspect of a child's life than helping a child learn to make decisions and having a loving relationship based on respect.

I remember my first semester of college in the dorms; the kids from the strictest, most controlling homes were the ones who got in the worst trouble. They had never learned to be independent, and they ended up getting alcohol poisoning, being sexually manipulated, and worse. If a teen can't be trusted to make her own decisions about a haircut, how will she suddenly be able to handle life as an adult?

lapushka
July 5th, 2014, 01:07 PM
I agree with Bene. Try and stand your ground. If you really don't want to get it cut, then don't have it cut, and try and explain it to your mom if necessary, or agree on another date in the future. Maybe set a date for a trim, and try and go to the stylist on your own.

Kimberly
July 5th, 2014, 01:49 PM
Those who are saying that parents can't force a kid to cut her hair have no idea what they are talking about. There are ways to force a kid to obey without crossing the line into abuse that can legally be stopped. All it takes is crushing a kid's self-esteem and keeping her scared and dependent -- with much worse consequences than a haircut.

As for the My Way Or The Highway form of child raising ... Does anyone here seriously mean to say that you would rather see your barely 17-year-old daughter leave home right now than have her disobey you over a haircut? I don't believe that most people mean it when they make a statement like that, that it is bluster and threat. I also don't think people who say this are considering how it makes their kid feel -- oh yeah, you have a home and food and clothes and a family that loves you, but you are out on your ass over any triviality you don't go along with, like trimming your hair. Is that really the message a parent wants their kid to get? I mean, it is, after all, on the flip side of, "My kid will do as I say because she is dependent and has no choice."

My parents said do as they ordered, or else pay rent or get out, all the time. They made disproportionate threats over trivialities, and had punished me enough to believe what they threatened. So I left, and the story of what happened then is unpleasant. My parents regret it now, and so do I, but there is no time travel to fix it. All I can do is to tell other people about it and hope it doesn't happen to their kids.

Anyway, just saying, some kids will call the bluff, but no one wins that kind of bet.

mariakatija
July 5th, 2014, 02:06 PM
At 17, you're still technically a child, but you're definitely old enough to decide what to do with your own hair. Yes, your parents support you and you live in their home but that doesn't make you a slave to them.

I'm 19 and my mother and aunt are always telling me to cut my hair, or that it's ugly, or that it's too long. Because so much of my happiness depends on my hair (vain, I know) I refuse to let anyone tell me what to do with it. Luckily, they have never forced me to cut it, but they have "forced" me to do other things that are probably more important than hair.

The thing is, no one can force you to do anything. The only thing you need to do in this life is die; everything else is totally up to you. You are the one who is enslaving yourself.

Honestly, what's the worst thing to happen if you disobey your mother? Will you get kicked out? Probably not. Maybe you'll lose some privileges but that's about it.

It is also not okay for people to blindly obey anyone! Children of all ages SHOULD question their parents and teachers. It's one thing to question someone and another to disrespect them.

ravenreed
July 5th, 2014, 02:10 PM
Part of being a parent means preparing your child for adulthood. Once you grow up, no one cares about your happiness. Having your children happy all the time is not a gift to them. Having the skills to deal with being unhappy about something and moving on with life is a crucial skill. So is doing things that we don't want to do because we need to, for whatever reason. Good grief, no wonder we are turning out a generation of entitled, helpless people who can't leave home. I see this with my sons' friends all the time and I just don't get it.

I was a lenient enough parent but there were certain standards, such as not looking homeless. If the hair or clothes approached that point, it was definitely an issue. So was hygiene. A parent who doesn't care about such things can be viewed in certain circles as being neglectful.

mz_butterfly
July 5th, 2014, 02:26 PM
I don't think the OP looks homeless or like she is neglecting her hygiene, she has hair pictures in her album. So that isn't the issue.

Is isn't about kids being perpetually happy or life being happy happy joy joy, it's about knowing your kid can make a decision about their body, such as to trim or not to trim, especially when their hair doesn't look neglected. It's about being respectful to your child and everybody in general. Do unto others.

I don't want a forced haircut or a forced anything, I won't force anything on others. That sucks.

Maktub
July 5th, 2014, 02:31 PM
Ravenreed, I don't mean to single you out but your post makes me feel like expressing my opinion. I don't agree, but fully respect that we have different opinions ! So with full respect, here are simply some thoughts :flower: :


Part of being a parent means preparing your child for adulthood.

I agree. But to me, this means letting the child make decisions, learning independence gradually from childhood. Letting them make choices, make some errors too and learn from all of that. In this sense, my parents always let us choose clothing and hair style as long as it wasn't absolutely inappropriate or unhygienic I guess (but none of us tested that). I agree with the idea that it is important for any child to learn that one's body is one's own. That we don't have power over others' bodies. I ask my 4 year old niece every time if she wants a kiss or a hug. If not, I simply blow one with my hand with a smile... to me it's respect and such an important life lesson to a little girl, that no one has a right to force unto her body against her wishes (well, exception made of medical issues, etc. of course).


Once you grow up, no one cares about your happiness.

Do you really believe this ? This sound so sad to me. I'm soon 32, and I have so so so many loving people around me that love me to bits and greatly care about my daily happiness. And I love them back, from my 89 year old grandma (with whom I lived 2 years to help out as an adult, and so did my sister with her DH and daughter !) to my young niece. Why would love and care for each other vanish for grown ups ?



Having your children happy all the time is not a gift to them. Having the skills to deal with being unhappy about something and moving on with life is a crucial skill. So is doing things that we don't want to do because we need to, for whatever reason.

I agree that dealing with adversity and resilience are very IMPORTANT life lessons. But I think adversity naturally happens, it just does, for everyone and since we are born. From aches and pains we cannot silence, to people and pets who die and that we cannot bring back, to injuries, to stuff and games, etc. we want but cannot get for whatever reason (reasons that can be explained or at least explored), to friends that might push us away, to the rules inherent in most education systems about when to talk, were to sit etc., home works that have to be done in time, etc. I don't believe in creating adversity and forcing submission just for the sake of making sure the child gets more of these experiences. And I doubt that OP's mother is "forcing her" just so she learns that "we don't get everything we want in life"... I think the person who talked about transition, hard to let a child grow up and soon be away and independent, etc. is probably more accurate (?)


Good grief, no wonder we are turning out a generation of entitled, helpless people who can't leave home. I see this with my sons' friends all the time and I just don't get it.

Interesting, because I would think that not letting people make their choices (gradually, as mentioned) would lead to that. In any case, I think there are lots of very brilliant, caring, implicated, and amazing youth out there, giving a lot of themselves for a better world, better communities, etc. and that there are many other reasons why typically young adults leaves home later that in the 40's (economy & living costs, longer education, family structures and number of children per household, etc.)

WaitingSoLong
July 5th, 2014, 02:33 PM
Has anyone suggested having the stylist tell the mom her hair is not split? If the mom just wants the splits cut because it is "dying", having a professional say her hair is healthy could satisfy mom.

As for doing what mom wants...I don't think I had better touch this one. As a mom of teens and two adult children, I am not sure my opinion would be welcome :flowers:

Komao
July 5th, 2014, 02:57 PM
Trims don't scare me. I regularly trim several inches off so that I have the kind of hair the constantly gets compliments in public because my ends look great. As a person who came out of the foster care system, getting a forced haircut would have been the least of my worries. I find the fuss baffling, to be honest.

When I was 14 my father insisted that I get my hair cut. He was an alcoholic and a rageaholic. We did everything he said in fear for our lives. This was the first time I didn't let him control me. We moved a lot and I had just left the town where I left my first boyfriend. He told me how much he loved my long hair.
I guess to me, my hair was about the only thing I had left and I wanted control over it.
He didn't want it just trimmed, he wanted it cut like he had made my younger sister do. She had beautiful hair and she hated it so short with some stupid looking feather in the back.
I started wearing it up or back in a pony tail. My father was dead not long after that.
I still get chills when I think of that time in my life.
I feel as long as hair is clean, neat looking for school, that these are decisions for the young adult to make. Parents could help, hopefully with the bigger decisions that can really make an impact on a young persons life.

lapushka
July 5th, 2014, 03:39 PM
I can see with about a year of no trimming, that mom wants her to get a trim, if she went to the stylist regularly before that and is now suddenly not going. Maybe a compromise can be reached. Who knows. Talk to your mom, OP, that's the best you can do. And try and make sure you can go to the hair appointment by yourself!

Gertrude
July 5th, 2014, 06:05 PM
I second the talk to your mum lapushka recommended. OP, your mother must have a reason for wanting you to trim your hair. Doesn't have to be a good reason, but she has one. Maybe to her visiting the hair stylist for a trim is like visiting the dentist for check-ups. And that not going may be a sign of depression. Maybe someone has made an unkind remark about your hair to her and she fears you are being talked about. Or she just really doesn't like the look of your hair as it gets longer and feels you could be prettier.....Or maybe you always went to the hairdresser and have now stopped and it's a change in your behaviour that scares her. Or you both used to go to the salon and used to have similar hair and now you're doing your own thing. Whatever, she has a reason. And she loves you. And you love her. And when two women who love each other get emotional and angry over something it can really get completely out of hand. The late teenage years are dangerous because arguments can boil over and parents can make " my way or the highway" statements which lead to the highway and a traumatic leaving home everyone regrets afterwards. You and your mum will have to change from mother with a child at home to mother of a young adult woman.

I have a daughter, who is only six, so not pretending to be a mother of a teenager. Personally I didn't trim her hair at all until she asked herself to go to the hairdresser. So she didn't go until she was 4 and a half. We go when she asks to go. So far she loves having long hair and lots of hair bows and toys. When she is a teen she may well want to shave it all off or dye it blue and as long as she stays within school rules and she doesn't have headlice or anything medical going wrong with her scalp it's her look-out and I really feel it's for her own good. I have friends who are mothers with daughters of similar age. One insists on her little girl having very long hair and elaborate hair styles. Her daughter doesn't like them due to time it takes and the pulling etc but it's to my friend part of her caring for her daughter like her mother did for her and her grandmother.........so it's for her own good.

Another friend believes hair should be above the shoulders and has her daughter's hair cut. She doesn't much like that but her mum believes it's for her own good. Don't know how any of us will deal with the teenage years. But all of us love our daughters and we all are doing our best. So I imagine your mother believes cutting your hair is for your own good. But I am nobody you know from the internet. You need to talk to your mother.

Ask her and really try to listen. There should be a compromise of some kind that works for both of you. My idea of parenting and life is for as many situations as possible to end with everybody involved having their dignity intact. Don't throw a tantrum in a salon. The day will come, may be decades before it does, but the day will come you both look back on this and smile...............ruefully or happily but come it will.

Then your mother can say that with some effort you could have been a very pretty girl. Or at least that's what mine used to say before she passed away. Time stops for nobody. Change happens, life goes on.

lapushka
July 5th, 2014, 06:16 PM
I have a daughter, who is only six, so not pretending to be a mother of a teenager. Personally I didn't trim her hair at all until she asked herself to go to the hairdresser. So she didn't go until she was 4 and a half. We go when she asks to go. So far she loves having long hair and lots of hair bows and toys. When she is a teen she may well want to shave it all off or dye it blue and as long as she stays within school rules and she doesn't have headlice or anything medical going wrong with her scalp it's her look-out and I really feel it's for her own good. I have friends who are mothers with daughters of similar age. One insists on her little girl having very long hair and elaborate hair styles. Her daughter doesn't like them due to time it takes and the pulling etc but it's to my friend part of her caring for her daughter like her mother did for her and her grandmother.........so it's for her own good.

When I was six, I had a pageboy haircut. Those were pretty popular, but many girls around me had long hair, and so that's what I wanted long hair. My mom was very nice about it. We regularly went to the hairdresser, though, and after about a year of not getting much further, I refused to go. My mom understood I was serious about this hairgrowing business, and started working with me, instead of against me, so we only got my bangs trimmed, and I got the ends dusted a few times a year and so it grew to classic in 4th grade.

After which I chopped it all off and went back to a pageboy hairstyle (which my mom tried to prevent from happening, since she too had grown attached to my hair). But alas...

Kaelee
July 6th, 2014, 07:57 AM
'My house, my rules' might be good for some things, but when it applies to a haircut like this (not a hygeine issue) what it really teaches is 'you don't have autonomy over your own body' which is a lesson that no parent with any sense wants their child to learn. Whether that's the intent of not, that's what happens. It's demeaning, degrading, and can have far reaching repercussions in adulthood.

hexbomb
July 6th, 2014, 08:02 AM
I was a lenient enough parent but there were certain standards, such as not looking homeless. If the hair or clothes approached that point, it was definitely an issue. So was hygiene. A parent who doesn't care about such things can be viewed in certain circles as being neglectful.

I heard this very recently, in a lot scarier way. My best friend just recently got declared cancer free, and her hair is growing back. However, during the chemo, she lost it all, and her parents demanded that she constantly wore a hat, because to them, she looked "messy" and "homeless" without it, and no daughter of theirs was going out looking like that...even though wearing a hat on the sensitive skin of her scalp gave her itchy rashes. "My house, my rules" led to months of misery on top of chemo treatments.

YamaMaya
July 6th, 2014, 08:03 AM
It is tough when you're still living at home. Honestly though I think your mother's being a bit overbearing. If you're looking after it and you're happy with it why is she "forcing" you to go to the hairdresser? I think you need to stand up for yourself on this one, even if you get punished, it's the principle of the thing.

MINAKO
July 6th, 2014, 08:21 AM
'My house, my rules' might be good for some things, but when it applies to a haircut like this (not a hygeine issue) what it really teaches is 'you don't have autonomy over your own body' which is a lesson that no parent with any sense wants their child to learn. Whether that's the intent of not, that's what happens. It's demeaning, degrading, and can have far reaching repercussions in adulthood.

Exactly this, i have nothing to add!
If i would have been in a similar situation before legally being an adult, i sure would have objected no matter what it takes.

MINAKO
July 6th, 2014, 08:21 AM
'My house, my rules' might be good for some things, but when it applies to a haircut like this (not a hygeine issue) what it really teaches is 'you don't have autonomy over your own body' which is a lesson that no parent with any sense wants their child to learn. Whether that's the intent of not, that's what happens. It's demeaning, degrading, and can have far reaching repercussions in adulthood.

Exactly this, i have nothing to add!
If i would have been in a similar situation before legally being an adult, i sure would have objected no matter what it takes.

pinchbeck
July 6th, 2014, 09:08 AM
I think you mom just wants you to look prim and proper. Having ends that look sloppy make a person look sloppy and kinda lazy. But that is 'my' opiopnion and many would disagree. Whenever 'my' ends or my son's ends (my son has apl curly blond hair) start to look sloppy I get them trimmed - not cut (to me there is a difference even though, again, some would disagree). I think to combat uneven ends a trim between 1/4" - 1/2" will make your mom happy. Such a small trim can yield beatufiul results. After that maybe get your hair microtrimmed every few months so there are no uneven ends for your mom to notice.

Speaking of mothers, my mom (I am 45) told me to get my hair cut at a more mature length.

eadwine
July 6th, 2014, 09:11 AM
Speaking of mothers, my mom (I am 45) told me to get my hair cut at a more mature length.

Oh good.. that means you shouldn't cut it until the hair is much older (longer) ;)

Kherome
July 6th, 2014, 09:13 AM
I just have to say that I find it majorly creep weird that at 17 you are being told what to do with your hair. It seems to me that on your 18th birthday you need to march out of your bedroom with your suitcases in hand and say adios. Your parents are strangely controlling. If you weren't clean or you had some radical horrible ugly hairstyle I could see them expressing concern and desire for a change, but not forcing anything.

two_wheels
July 6th, 2014, 10:26 AM
I find it creepily controlling as well. My advice to suck it up gracefully was more of a coping-for-the-next-year strategy than approval of the parent in question. What on earth does she think is going to happen when OP leaves home?

höpönasu
July 6th, 2014, 11:02 AM
Tell her no. It's your hair no matter how badly your mom thinks it needs to be trimmed.

sarahthegemini
July 6th, 2014, 11:06 AM
Wow, your Mum has issues. And how exactly does she 'punish you'?

CostaRita
July 6th, 2014, 12:03 PM
Just do it because your hair will be healthier in the long run :)

embee
July 6th, 2014, 01:22 PM
I heard this very recently, in a lot scarier way. My best friend just recently got declared cancer free, and her hair is growing back. However, during the chemo, she lost it all, and her parents demanded that she constantly wore a hat, because to them, she looked "messy" and "homeless" without it, and no daughter of theirs was going out looking like that...even though wearing a hat on the sensitive skin of her scalp gave her itchy rashes. "My house, my rules" led to months of misery on top of chemo treatments.

Ugh. Some people's priorities are seriously messed up. :(

PinkScarf
July 6th, 2014, 02:38 PM
My mother is incredibly controlling, so I totally get where you're coming from. I also know the kind of crazy repercussions that controlling people tend to come up with. For the people saying "Just tell her no," it's not that simple. If this was my mom, telling her no would probably end up with her grabbing my hair and butchering it with scissors. There could also be emotional consequences - being ignored or degraded for days, being called ugly and lazy, etc. Only you can know what the best choice will be, whether that's keeping the peace or getting the heck out of there.

RoseofCimarron
July 6th, 2014, 03:05 PM
Totally agreeing with other posters on the fact that controlling parents can lead to other repercussions later in life. I have wonderful parents and I love them dearly, but when I stopped going to get trims they once, only once, threatened to cut my hair in my sleep. I did not sleep soundly for months, I was terrified that they would do it. I now know that they would never do it, but I thought it was real back then. The funny thing was, an ex-friend of mine trimmed about 1 1/2 inches off during choir class (yeah, that class was insane, glad I quit in my junior year :)) and I did not realize it until the next morning. So I go running out screaming at my poor mother, "You cut my hair!!!! Why the **** did you do that? I just trimmed it two weeks ago!!! :cry:" My mom was totally shocked and she kept swearing that she didn't. I didn't believe her until my ex-friend admitted (more like boasted) that she had cut it, two years later. After I found that out, I felt so bad for what I did to my mom. :lol:

jacqueline101
July 6th, 2014, 03:10 PM
I'd try to tell the hair dresser to dust for split ends or micro trim your hair.

Freija
July 6th, 2014, 06:57 PM
Apologies if this post misses something that's already been said; I've skimmed through most of the pages of this thread before posting it and it still seemed to fit, but I may be wrong...

Assuming your mum is generally reasonable and approachable - if at least somewhat 'strict' - could you try sitting her down for a very mature, calm, gentle talk? Would she be more likely to listen if you told her that you don't expect her to understand, necessarily - that it's your personal idiosyncrasy - but that taking care of your own hair, growing it, deciding what to do with it and when, is very important to you; that it means a lot to you; and does she think that possibly, she could perhaps accept that, and try to go with it? That it's your way - your very peaceful, non-destructive way! - of taking agency and control over your own body and exploring and shaping your own identity? That the issue, as you see it, is not whether your hair needs a trim or not, but that you should be, and need to be, the one to make the decisions? That her forcing you to do things you don't want to do, to your own body, makes you feel very trapped and uncomfortable? And at the same time, that at seventeen, you feel that your own judgement in matters of appearance and hygiene needs to be trusted?

Of course, there are many parents who visit awful, intentional abuse upon their children (in various verbal, psychological and physical forms), and that may be what's going on here. If so, I am sorry; the things I've written are not relevant, and you may well need more help and support than any one of us can offer. But I also think that there are many ordinary parents in the world who don't mean to be controlling or manipulative - they just don't realise that as their children grow up, 'forcing' them to do things like cutting their hair, or shaving their legs, or putting on certain clothes, moves well beyond the remit of 'looking after' them and becomes just as weird and invasive and unacceptable from the child's point of view as it would be if they did that to a total stranger. Parents just don't always realise how their actions read to their offspring. And so, if your parent is essentially reasonable and approachable, then talking calmly through it with them can sometimes be the best, and easiest, way forwards. If you ignore it, though, if you never try to quietly assert yourself, it doesn't ever tend to go away - instead, you risk missing out altogether on reaching the mutual, mature, equal understanding that is so fundamental to all really good adult parent-child relationships.

Another thought in the same vein is perhaps to show her how you are taking care of your hair for yourself. Could you let her in on the things you are learning, let her see you putting your hair up or giving it special treatments? Could you involve her, offer to give her the same treatments sometimes? I might be way off - it just sounds as though she's reacting and responding to you as though she assumes you're just being a difficult, stubborn child, and so if you let her see you genuinely enjoying your hair, it might help her recognise it as a valid choice.

mz_butterfly
July 27th, 2014, 06:48 PM
I was just wondering what became of the forced cut? Did it go well? Did it happen at all?

hairpleasegrow
July 27th, 2014, 07:41 PM
I don't know anything about you or your mom but it sounds like your mom is looking out for you and what she thinks is best for you. You may like your hair and the fresh ends after your trim ….possibly you can compromise on how much she wants to take off. yes once you go away to college you can grow it long :)

kganihanova
July 27th, 2014, 09:18 PM
She trimmed a quarter inch

mz_butterfly
July 27th, 2014, 09:36 PM
She trimmed a quarter inch Thank you. :) I wondered about that a couple of times and forgot to check the thread.

Hibernis
July 27th, 2014, 10:01 PM
I'd just like to state that having been homeless, I do not appreciate the comments about "looking homeless". There are plenty of implications in that statement: homelessness is shameful and bad, homeless people are ugly/unkempt/smelly, homelessness is what becomes people who lack self respect.

I did my absolute best during that time to look as clean and tidy as I could during that time of my life. I am thankful to be out of that situation that was not my fault at all, and it really twists my knickers when I hear derogatory things like that.

ErinLeigh
July 28th, 2014, 02:25 AM
Ewww. I personally don't understand parents who want to control their kids down to a minor haircut, but I understand many parents are like this or (much) worse.

For the sake of peace get the microtrim, keep your head down, count the days til you are out of there, and never look (go) back.
^^
This is my thought.
Just get thru until you go to college. It sounds like arguing this could cause more issues and stress for you. I almost worry if you fight it she will ask you to cut more (and not just trim) to assert more control. If she is only asking for trim, I hate to say it, but I would do it in this case. You mom doesn't seem like she bends.

Ask stylist for a dusting. If you haven't trimmed since October you may like the look of fresh ends anyway (trying to find a bright side for you)
Once cut, try to wear hair up around mom so it is out of sight out of mind. Hopefully the subject wont come up again if she isn't looking at it.

Being a minor is tough. I respect you very much for your grace in this situation actually. I now how hard it must be. I couldn't do it myself, but I cannot judge because I do not know the true dynamic of your home life. I run fast and far from controlling people. Please remember that as you enter college. I worry getting used to appeasing people could damage you down the road. i hope it is a case of just house rules and not something you take with you into the real world.

This is one hot topic for sure.

eadwine
July 28th, 2014, 08:15 AM
I'd just like to state that having been homeless, I do not appreciate the comments about "looking homeless". There are plenty of implications in that statement: homelessness is shameful and bad, homeless people are ugly/unkempt/smelly, homelessness is what becomes people who lack self respect.

I did my absolute best during that time to look as clean and tidy as I could during that time of my life. I am thankful to be out of that situation that was not my fault at all, and it really twists my knickers when I hear derogatory things like that.

Well I'm sorry that you were, it is not a nice situation to be in. It is just simply the case that the term is used to what we SEE as homeless, which is what we SEE on the streets: dirty, unkempt, ratty.

No need to get your panties in a twist, this is just what it is. Good going that you were the exception!

Shibe
July 28th, 2014, 08:24 AM
I actually agree with Hibernis.

Homelessness isn't just one level, there are many different levels of homelessness. To lump them all together as 'dirty and unclean', it would upset me to if I were ever in that situation.

Homeless is word with a bad rap. Unkempt? ''You look homeless''. Stink a little? "Man, you smell like a bum". People see homelessness and automatically think they are unemployed, smelly beggers with an addiction.

Even if those people ARE indeed homeless, it's not just a word anymore. It's an insult, plain and simple. If someone is homeless, call them homeless. If you think someone needs a bath, telling them they smell like a bum is quite insensitive. It's like people using 'that's so gay' as an insult.

Hibernis just shared her experience, and tried to give perspective. Telling her to 'don't twist your panties' is pretty rude to me. Youre basically telling her that how she feels isn't valid because 'it's just what it is'.

eadwine
July 28th, 2014, 08:33 AM
I am simply stating it is just simply what people think when you say homeless. Sure there are many levels. You can try changing that around, it won't happen as it is an ingrained term pretty much :/

The twisting panties is what she said she does, really she shouldn't as it is a fight not worth fighting. Be proud of what you accomplished, because you have done a lot!

Hibernis
July 28th, 2014, 09:31 AM
Well I'm sorry that you were, it is not a nice situation to be in. It is just simply the case that the term is used to what we SEE as homeless, which is what we SEE on the streets: dirty, unkempt, ratty.

No need to get your panties in a twist, this is just what it is. Good going that you were the exception!

I was not the exception. The people you see on the streets (and I know which ones you're referring to) are usually veterans who are struggling to cope with PTSD. Yes, sometimes with substances, but not always. They are not the entirety of the homeless population. Just the stereotyped part of the group, and most certainly people who don't deserve the disgust that's given them.

It's likely that you see people on a regular basis who are homeless, and you would never be able to tell. Most people who are homeless don't look the part. All I'm asking is that you think about what stereotypes you're perpetuating when you teach your children to not look "homeless", and that the subgroup you're referring to does not deserve the disgust.

I was also not an exception with keeping myself clean. Were we coiffed? No. But we did the best we could.

Back to hair: it sucks that OP had to get the trim, but a positive is that your ends are I damaged and ready for your year of zero trim ;)

lapushka
July 28th, 2014, 10:33 AM
I perfectly understand why you are making a point out of this, Hibernis, but it's just a phrase that's been coined a long time ago. Homeless means what it means to a lot of people, and unfortunately you aren't going to change that. :shrug:

LongHairLesbian
July 28th, 2014, 10:50 AM
I was not the exception. The people you see on the streets (and I know which ones you're referring to) are usually veterans who are struggling to cope with PTSD. Yes, sometimes with substances, but not always. They are not the entirety of the homeless population. Just the stereotyped part of the group, and most certainly people who don't deserve the disgust that's given them.

It's likely that you see people on a regular basis who are homeless, and you would never be able to tell. Most people who are homeless don't look the part. All I'm asking is that you think about what stereotypes you're perpetuating when you teach your children to not look "homeless", and that the subgroup you're referring to does not deserve the disgust.

I was also not an exception with keeping myself clean. Were we coiffed? No. But we did the best we could.

Back to hair: it sucks that OP had to get the trim, but a positive is that your ends are I damaged and ready for your year of zero trim ;)

Just commenting to lend my support. People who are homeless and live on the street, don't bathe, and use substances or have severe mental health problems are actually the minority, even if they are the most visible. Most who are homeless are in that situation because of violence and abuse at home (especially women and children!), job loss, lack of support system, immigration, natural disaster, etc. It is shocking how easy it actually is to become homeless, and how many people experience homelessness in their lives. Personally, I will keep in my mind what my knee-jerk assumptions are, and do my best not to perpetuate stigma that hurts people like you, Hibernis.

Also back to hair: Maybe try wearing your up more around your mum in the future? Do you know any buns that tuck your ends in? My mother is one of those colour and cut every 8 weeks kind of people, and believes in very regular trims. I get off easier because of my gender, she has this belief that all men must be "clean cut" aka never longer than an inch, so she constantly hassles my brothers. But if I have my hair up in a neat bun, she doesn't see the ends, she doesn't even see how greasy my hair is, which is another one of her pet peeves. You are still a minor and are obviously still a child in your mother's eyes, so I think the best way to avoid these arguments is to ensure that your mother doesn't see your ends at all. Works like a charm.

Kaelee
July 28th, 2014, 11:04 AM
Just commenting to lend my support. People who are homeless and live on the street, don't bathe, and use substances or have severe mental health problems are actually the minority, even if they are the most visible. Most who are homeless are in that situation because of violence and abuse at home (especially women and children!), job loss, lack of support system, immigration, natural disaster, etc. It is shocking how easy it actually is to become homeless, and how many people experience homelessness in their lives. Personally, I will keep in my mind what my knee-jerk assumptions are, and do my best not to perpetuate stigma that hurts people like you, Hibernis.


This. Several people close to me have been homeless, even within the past year.



I perfectly understand why you are making a point out of this, Hibernis, but it's just a phrase that's been coined a long time ago. Homeless means what it means to a lot of people, and unfortunately you aren't going to change that. :shrug:

Actually, no. Recently we've seen campaigns against the word "retarded" and most recently, "gay", along with other words in the more distant past, for exactly the same reasons; largely, whether you agree with the use of the words or not, they have fallen out of common usage.

Quixii
July 28th, 2014, 01:04 PM
Actually, no. Recently we've seen campaigns against the word "retarded" and most recently, "gay", along with other words in the more distant past, for exactly the same reasons; largely, whether you agree with the use of the words or not, they have fallen out of common usage.
I've never known anyone homeless, but I agree with this completely. Hibernis is perfectly entitled to feel the way she feels and to express that. I don't think I've ever referred to someone unkempt as "homeless," but now I will be sure to keep it in mind for the future so that I don't. :flower:

Hibernis
July 28th, 2014, 04:29 PM
I've never known anyone homeless, but I agree with this completely. Hibernis is perfectly entitled to feel the way she feels and to express that. I don't think I've ever referred to someone unkempt as "homeless," but now I will be sure to keep it in mind for the future so that I don't. :flower:

I appreciate that. All I'm asking is that people think about the language you use and how it impacts others. Language is a strong and fluid thing, and I've certainly had to replace a few words in my vocabulary as I learned about the impact they had on other people.

sarahthegemini
July 28th, 2014, 04:41 PM
In regards to the homeless thing...it was just a phrase used in jest, that has been blown waaaay out of proportion. Jesus Christ. People can't say anything these days without someone shouting 'insult'

lapushka
July 28th, 2014, 04:52 PM
In regards to the homeless thing...it was just a phrase used in jest, that has been blown waaaay out of proportion. Jesus Christ. People can't say anything these days without someone shouting 'insult'

QFT, quoted for truth!

LongHairLesbian
July 28th, 2014, 04:53 PM
In regards to the homeless thing...it was just a phrase used in jest, that has been blown waaaay out of proportion. Jesus Christ. People can't say anything these days without someone shouting 'insult'

When someone tells you that they feel hurt and degraded by something, it tends to be better to err on the side of compassion, rather than scoffing at and belittling their feelings. And no it's not "anything" that's considered an insult. Specific words, ones that imply that people who experience certain hardships in their life (i.e. homelessness) are filthy and negligent, are insults.

cathair
July 28th, 2014, 04:59 PM
When someone tells you that they feel hurt and degraded by something, it tends to be better to err on the side of compassion, rather than scoffing at and belittling their feelings. And no it's not "anything" that's considered an insult. Specific words, ones that imply that people who experience certain hardships in their life (i.e. homelessness) are filthy and negligent, are insults.

+1 *and bites all of her fingers to stop herself for typing everything else that she wants to say*.

I have a feeling this thread is going to end up locked.

FallingDarkness
July 28th, 2014, 05:09 PM
LOL I come back to notice that my old thread is still getting attention and that we're on the topic of homeless people and insults.
What did I miss?

lapushka
July 28th, 2014, 05:27 PM
LOL I come back to notice that my old thread is still getting attention and that we're on the topic of homeless people and insults.
What did I miss?

A lot, apparently. ;)

sarahthegemini
July 28th, 2014, 06:13 PM
I can understand someone who has experienced homelessness feeling offended by the homeless comment but to go on about it as though it was an intentional insult is stupid. I stand by my comment that it has been blown waaaay out of proportion - all that was needed to say was 'I am offended by that' and that would have been the end of it but it was dragged on instead.

chen bao jun
July 28th, 2014, 07:14 PM
Interesting, there is a two page discussion on whether is okay to state that people look like homeless people, but there has been NO discussion and nobody notices someone breaking the third commandment here, something which actually still deeply offends a lot of people, even when its done in abbreviation, but I suppose bringing that up is likely to be considered to be forcing religion on others.
About the homelessness, its a sad situation and the many people who used to be in institutions before the laws changed and they got put on the street instead do take attention away from the others suffering. I hate pointless political correctness but some of it is pointful and that shouldn't be forgotten. I think its silly, for instance, that in my life I have been 'colored' and then I was a 'Negro' and then I was 'Afro-American' then 'black' and now 'African-American' (though my roots are not in America) and that whenever one of these terms goes out of style, people get attacked for still using it--however there are other terms for black people that are meant to be deeply offensive and while I would not take away someone's job for using them (nor persecute someone who might have used the insulting term 50 years ago but hasn't since), the fact remains that someone calling me that to my face would mean to insult and I would then react accordingly. It might be 'politically correct' but it would be nicer not to do that, and I don't think takes that much of an effort. I think the person who brought up the subject might have phrased the request a bit accusingly and aggressively, but I do think that its a valid point that thoughtlessly referring to all homeless people as dirty, etc. is definitely thoughtless. Not something to be kicked off a forum for doing, and I don't see the point of jumping on the person who did, instead of just nicely pointing out that 'hey, some are homeless and don't beg and do their best to be clean and I was one, so you might want to rethink this phrasing.' The person who used the phrase in this way most probably did not mean offense, also, and that ought to be considered, just as I would consider that an older person who referred to me as a Negro might well not mean offense, and does not need to be attacked for not keeping up with changes in the language.
I also am well aware that SarahtheGemini did not meant to offend with her use of the Lord's name in vain and yes, I know its all over the place, in every movie, everythng, but it seriously does offend me every time I hear it, I think this is much worse than any racial slur or other slur, and now some of you that may not have known that, now know that when you do this, there is someone cringing inside the same way you would if you heard someone insult your mother or father.

Just putting it out there.

In regards to the homeless thing...it was just a phrase used in jest, that has been blown waaaay out of proportion. Jesus Christ. People can't say anything these days without someone shouting 'insult'

chen bao jun
July 28th, 2014, 07:16 PM
I know that not all homeless are dirty,etc. by the way, because my church works to help them. Volunteering to help these people is definitely an education and you soon realise that it wouldn't take that much for it to be you in their position.

sarahthegemini
July 28th, 2014, 07:22 PM
Interesting, there is a two page discussion on whether is okay to state that people look like homeless people, but there has been NO discussion and nobody notices someone breaking the third commandment here, something which actually still deeply offends a lot of people, even when its done in abbreviation, but I suppose bringing that up is likely to be considered to be forcing religion on others.
About the homelessness, its a sad situation and the many people who used to be in institutions before the laws changed and they got put on the street instead do take attention away from the others suffering. I hate pointless political correctness but some of it is pointful and that shouldn't be forgotten. I think its silly, for instance, that in my life I have been 'colored' and then I was a 'Negro' and then I was 'Afro-American' then 'black' and now 'African-American' (though my roots are not in America) and that whenever one of these terms goes out of style, people get attacked for still using it--however there are other terms for black people that are meant to be deeply offensive and while I would not take away someone's job for using them (nor persecute someone who might have used the insulting term 50 years ago but hasn't since), the fact remains that someone calling me that to my face would mean to insult and I would then react accordingly. It might be 'politically correct' but it would be nicer not to do that, and I don't think takes that much of an effort. I think the person who brought up the subject might have phrased the request a bit accusingly and aggressively, but I do think that its a valid point that thoughtlessly referring to all homeless people as dirty, etc. is definitely thoughtless. Not something to be kicked off a forum for doing, and I don't see the point of jumping on the person who did, instead of just nicely pointing out that 'hey, some are homeless and don't beg and do their best to be clean and I was one, so you might want to rethink this phrasing.' The person who used the phrase in this way most probably did not mean offense, also, and that ought to be considered, just as I would consider that an older person who referred to me as a Negro might well not mean offense, and does not need to be attacked for not keeping up with changes in the language.
I also am well aware that SarahtheGemini did not meant to offend with her use of the Lord's name in vain and yes, I know its all over the place, in every movie, everythng, but it seriously does offend me every time I hear it, I think this is much worse than any racial slur or other slur, and now some of you that may not have known that, now know that when you do this, there is someone cringing inside the same way you would if you heard someone insult your mother or father.

Just putting it out there.

Wow. I use the term 'Jesus Christ's a lot in conversation without even realising. I suppose because I am not offended by that term, I forget that others do take offense. Please note that I never meant to belittle anyone's beliefs. I will make a conscious effort to stop myself from using those terms.

Bene
July 28th, 2014, 07:30 PM
So, um....


If I saw an obviously homeless person on the street, and they were doing something like having a cup of coffee eating a danish or reading the paper, and I wanted to point them out to a friend, as a landmark, like "Hey, yeah, to your right, right next to the homeless dude with the cup of coffee" is that inappropriate?


I'm not exactly sure how descriptive all of a sudden becomes derogatory.

MINAKO
July 28th, 2014, 07:34 PM
Am i evil for finding the last pages of this thread really entertaining and absolutely hilarious? :popcorn::oops::oops::oops:

Bene
July 28th, 2014, 07:44 PM
Or what if I'm telling someone about something that happened when I was taking the train, like "Oh man, I was running for the train, and there was this crowd of people in the way, and it turns out they were watching these two homeless dudes fighting it out mortal kombat style, I totally missed my train because of that!"


Is that no longer permissible?

MINAKO
July 28th, 2014, 07:53 PM
Or what if I'm telling someone about something that happened when I was taking the train, like "Oh man, I was running for the train, and there was this crowd of people in the way, and it turns out they were watching these two homeless dudes fighting it out mortal kombat style, I totally missed my train because of that!"


Is that no longer permissible?

Hahaha, roll out the -isms!
lol, seriously, who irl would be that sensitive about their choice of words? How is the word homeless an insult when it doesn't refer to the unkempt looks of someone who actually isnt?

cathair
July 28th, 2014, 07:55 PM
Or what if I'm telling someone about something that happened when I was taking the train, like "Oh man, I was running for the train, and there was this crowd of people in the way, and it turns out they were watching these two homeless dudes fighting it out mortal kombat style, I totally missed my train because of that!"


Is that no longer permissible?

How do you know they are homeless?

Hibernis
July 28th, 2014, 07:56 PM
Am i evil for finding the last pages of this thread really entertaining and absolutely hilarious? :popcorn::oops::oops::oops:

Uh, nope. I'm honestly a bit surprised that me pointing out and explaining that something offended me has launched a debate, as though the very act of being offended was offensive. I doubt this thread will go back to hair (I tried!), so pass the popcorn.

Inkspot
July 28th, 2014, 07:57 PM
As it has been previously stated by another, language is fluid.

Such a quality gives us the constant ability to refine both our usage of it, and how such usage is perceived by others. We can now take this matter and realize that we have all learned something new about how to use our words more thoughtfully.

Life is a learning experience :cheese:

MINAKO
July 28th, 2014, 07:59 PM
They're still homeless tho (the guys fighting at the trainstation i mean)! ;)

Quixii
July 28th, 2014, 08:00 PM
Using words for their actual definition is not offensive. It's using that word as an insult instead that can be.

MINAKO
July 28th, 2014, 08:03 PM
domestically unprovided individual?

TheLuckyLurker
July 28th, 2014, 08:21 PM
You know, over on the Friendship board someone posted a thread asking why lurkers don't speak up more. The last two pages of this thread are shining example of why I usually just don't bother.

Hibernis
July 28th, 2014, 08:31 PM
domestically unprovided individual?

I'm just going to jump in since I was the formerly homeless person who was actually offended in the first place.

Like Quixii said, calling a person who is homeless "homeless" is perfectly fine. In fact, I just referred to myself as a formerly homeless person. Telling someone who is not homeless that they look like a hobo/had better not run around looking homeless is uncool because:

1. It assumes that all people who are homeless are unkempt, shaggy, gross, etc and that is not the case in most situations. If the situations where it is true, it ignores that those people look that way for serious reasons that deserve sympathy and not shame.
2. It perpetuates negative assumptions about homeless people (like they are shaggy, gross, unkempt, drug addicts, etc) that are not universally true.
3. Negative assumptions perpetuate negative treatment. And yes, homeless people are treated pretty awful.

Hey, you know what would be cool? If this turned into a conversation about "gee, I wonder how homeless people take care of their hair", because that thing where this is a long hair forum. Anyone curious?

Hibernis
July 28th, 2014, 08:32 PM
You know, over on the Friendship board someone posted a thread asking why lurkers don't speak up more. The last two pages of this thread are shining example of why I usually just don't bother.

I am seriously considering lurking after this experience too. :/

neko_kawaii
July 28th, 2014, 08:35 PM
I am seriously considering lurking after this experience too. :/

Please don't.

Kimberly
July 28th, 2014, 08:38 PM
Please don't.

Seconding this.

Hibernis
July 28th, 2014, 08:39 PM
Please don't.

I'll see how it plays out. Definitely won't bring up anything other than hair though. Can of worms, and reductio ad hitlerum. Oh internet.

neko_kawaii
July 28th, 2014, 08:40 PM
I'll see how it plays out. Definitely won't bring up anything other than hair though. Can of worms, and reductio ad hitlerum. Oh internet.

Worms are good.

ooglipoo
July 28th, 2014, 08:41 PM
I am seriously considering lurking after this experience too. :/

Nah, don't lurk. I'd be interested in knowing how you cared for your hair while homeless. :yes:

ooglipoo
July 28th, 2014, 08:43 PM
Worms are good.

I know this much is true...

neko_kawaii
July 28th, 2014, 08:44 PM
Nah, don't lurk. I'd be interested in knowing how you cared for your hair while homeless. :yes:

My mom washed mine in a river. I remember her holding my by the ankles as I laid backwards on a rock and hung my head into the water. I'd imagine it is much harder to be homeless in an urban environment! I'm interested in hearing too.

ETA: went wading in that river just last week!

MINAKO
July 28th, 2014, 08:55 PM
I'm just going to jump in since I was the formerly homeless person who was actually offended in the first place.

Like Quixii said, calling a person who is homeless "homeless" is perfectly fine. In fact, I just referred to myself as a formerly homeless person. Telling someone who is not homeless that they look like a hobo/had better not run around looking homeless is uncool because:

1. It assumes that all people who are homeless are unkempt, shaggy, gross, etc and that is not the case in most situations. If the situations where it is true, it ignores that those people look that way for serious reasons that deserve sympathy and not shame.
2. It perpetuates negative assumptions about homeless people (like they are shaggy, gross, unkempt, drug addicts, etc) that are not universally true.
3. Negative assumptions perpetuate negative treatment. And yes, homeless people are treated pretty awful.

Hey, you know what would be cool? If this turned into a conversation about "gee, I wonder how homeless people take care of their hair", because that thing where this is a long hair forum. Anyone curious?

I did not read what you wrote in the first place, and from your personal view i can kind of see why you want to educate people but you are taking defense where you actually don't have to. Everybody knows that one worst case clichee never apllies to an entire group of peole just because they have one thing in common. Really everybody knows that. It might be ignored, belittled or generalized and thus misrepresent for certain reason that might not be always in the interest of those people spoken about. Tho i think it would be rather difficult to consider over 7billion peoples individual feeling everytime we open our mouth to say something.

Nobody was calling you out for anything, so i don't really see a reason for you to be uncomfortable enough to stop participating in threads. I'm sure less dramatic evaluation of every tiny thing would be fun on here as well.
If you got any hairtips to share that might be relevant to others, why not? Go ahead, if one other member learns something from you expirience, theres your success and positivity. ;)

LongHairLesbian
July 28th, 2014, 09:02 PM
My mom washed mine in a river. I remember her holding my by the ankles as I laid backwards on a rock and hung my head into the water. I'd imagine it is much harder to be homeless in an urban environment! I'm interested in hearing too.

ETA: went wading in that river just last week!

Your post makes me smile, n_k. :) I have never been homeless, but I grew up in a single parent, four children household, and my mother used to bathe two or three of us at a time, every other day or every third day. She used a little bucket to rinse our hair; we used to squeal and giggle when we felt the water falling down our heads, while my mother poured and scrubbed gently. :) I've never, EVER washed my hair every day, and a part of that training came from my mother's desire to conserve water.

Please don't stop posting, Hibernis. I would love to hear about how you took care of your hair (and the hair of anyone else in your care, if that was the case) while homeless.

hairpleasegrow
July 28th, 2014, 09:05 PM
I'll see how it plays out. Definitely won't bring up anything other than hair though. Can of worms, and reductio ad hitlerum. Oh internet.

Hibernis I really admired that you spoke up about your experience and I actually thought about your point of view since yesterday. I hope you keep posting :)

Hibernis
July 28th, 2014, 09:06 PM
Nah, don't lurk. I'd be interested in knowing how you cared for your hair while homeless. :yes:

Cool!

For me, it was a buzz cut. I had BSL hair but had no idea how to care for it without tons of products so off it went. Made it very easy to rinse off and keep clean, and I was basically doing SO and you couldn't tell. If it got smelly I'd use the bathroom hand soap on my hair but that didn't happen much. Once I had a place to live, going CO was really easy because my hair was so used to it's own oils.

As it got longer I took to headscarves. I had 3 of them that I'd rotate through. Some people thought it was a religious thing. but it was actually to hide the "all one length awkwardness" of my type iii hair.

Some other people I knew did cornrows and other protective-type styles. It did the same thing where they could rinse it in the sink and use soap if it got bad, but generally speaking there was a lot of so/WO. The downside is that your scalp could get sunburned between the braids. I was in a city so there wasn't much access to rivers and lakes.

I think overall the experience opened me up to alternative hair care. The first thing I did once the ordeal was over was to grow my hair looooong. I didn't touch it for 4 years. Just CO.

Hibernis
July 28th, 2014, 09:08 PM
Oh, another thought about the cornrows: a lot of people saw "white people with black cornrows" as the epitome of "white trash", which really showed a lot of weird biases. Here were women and young ladies trying to do the feminine thing and keep their hair long, and they were looked down on, whereas my choice to buzz my hair was more acceptable.

RoseofCimarron
July 28th, 2014, 09:31 PM
I've always liked cornrows, on anyone of any skin color. I remember my cousins getting them done (we are Finnish-Yugoslav, but they all have very thick and very fine hair) when they went on a cruise a few years ago. One got full cornrows and the other got partial cornrows (looked like this (http://i.ytimg.com/vi/lPA-ERZ9J5Y/hqdefault.jpg)) and I absolutely loved them. Unfortunately they have hated cornrows on anyone since because the lady who did theirs pulled their hair too tight and it caused some damage and headaches for the entire trip. I might try my hand at them soon! :)

As for hair care, I remember reading in Dolly Parton's autobiography that when she was just starting out (with her uncle, Bill Owens) she would wash her hair in the sink of a gas station and do her makeup there. I have no idea what they used for shampoo or conditioner. I kinda want to know, because I watched an interview where she was talking about home perms, and how all of her sisters' hair always turned out perfect, and hers didn't. I know Dolly Parton wasn't homeless, but it is still interesting how she got by.

lapushka
July 29th, 2014, 02:53 AM
As it got longer I took to headscarves. I had 3 of them that I'd rotate through. Some people thought it was a religious thing. but it was actually to hide the "all one length awkwardness" of my type iii hair.

Type iii is especially awkward in the pixie stage, because of its thickness. I know. No wonder you "hid" it in scarves. :D I sympathize with that growing out stage! I grew out from there a few times, and I don't think I could do it again.

eadwine
July 29th, 2014, 09:49 AM
Would that be the POOF stage Lapushka? :lol:

I have a client who HAS a somewhat pixie cut and I would bet iii hair, she has to watch the nape or it stands up funny, she said.

two_wheels
July 29th, 2014, 10:02 AM
Lurkers, I duck out of threads when they turn dramatic. You develop a sense for it :lol: Then I watch from a distance. I call it popcorn-lurking :popcorn: There comes a point where getting involved is silly and the best thing is to keep schtum, or report a post if it's really horrific, and let the thread die or be closed.

I hope you stay, Hibernis, it sounds like you've had interesting life experiences, and it's good to have a breadth of life experience within any community, in my opinion. It's true that if you don't want other people to get defensive/offensive (!), you have to word yourself rather carefully and choose what threads to engage with/avoid, but that's true on the internet in general :shrug:

Neko, your mum sounds very resourceful.

Finally, growing out a pixie is rough with ii hair, I think I'd keep on buzzing rather than grow out a iii pixie. Or hide in a mountain hut somewhere until it was all over. Good work.

ooglipoo
July 29th, 2014, 10:03 AM
Thanks for sharing, Hibernis! Taking the short route must have felt strange at first...

neko, I'm tickled by the river explanation for y'all. We creek wash pretty often here, just because we can! :rolling:

I recently undertook an experiment(?), just because. I didn't wash my hair for 2+ months. I stretched for a week, and then another and another. I brushed daily and skritched and kind of tried to spread the oils to the ends. But my ends got very dry feeling. My hair as a whole felt larger and more coarse. I could still do all updos and braids. No one seemed to notice, either. I mean the people who I thought *should* notice, like my mom or DH. Nary a single complaint!

Eventually, I got bored of it and washed again. It feels so soft and silky, now. Probably the 'poo and conditioner. It was interesting and a bit liberating to know that I can do without if I need to.

hairpleasegrow
July 29th, 2014, 10:35 AM
Lurkers, I duck out of threads when they turn dramatic. You develop a sense for it :lol: Then I watch from a distance. I call it popcorn-lurking :popcorn: There comes a point where getting involved is silly and the best thing is to keep schtum, or report a post if it's really horrific, and let the thread die or be closed.

I hope you stay, Hibernis, it sounds like you've had interesting life experiences, and it's good to have a breadth of life experience within any community, in my opinion. It's true that if you don't want other people to get defensive/offensive (!), you have to word yourself rather carefully and choose what threads to engage with/avoid, but that's true on the internet in general :shrug:

Neko, your mum sounds very resourceful.

Finally, growing out a pixie is rough with ii hair, I think I'd keep on buzzing rather than grow out a iii pixie. Or hide in a mountain hut somewhere until it was all over. Good work.

Agree with everything you said here, I duck out of threads if they get a little heated. Also I laughed at hiding in a mountain hut! Thats how I feel about my hair right now!!! :)

Hibernis
July 29th, 2014, 10:57 AM
Haha, popcorn lurking! Love it.


And yes, I kept buzzing that pixie until I finally said screw it, I want long hair, time for the awkward growing out. The pixie rocked when I was thin, but didn't do me any favors at all once I gained a few. The scarves helped a lot, and once I had a well enough paying job, the hairdresser helped even more. Mountain hut would have been nice... Would have rivers and natural water! Neko - your mom was super smart. Nothing makes hair softer than river water.


ooglipoo It was SO strange, but people told me I looked like Natalie Portman so I got used to it really quick. I think going without for a while was actually really good for my hair. Before I was a "wash every day" and my hair never went back to that.

chen bao jun
July 29th, 2014, 11:56 AM
thank you, Sarahthegemini, that is very thoughtful.

Wow. I use the term 'Jesus Christ's a lot in conversation without even realising. I suppose because I am not offended by that term, I forget that others do take offense. Please note that I never meant to belittle anyone's beliefs. I will make a conscious effort to stop myself from using those terms.

chen bao jun
July 29th, 2014, 12:11 PM
Very interested to see this thread has taken a turn towards describing hair washing in difficult conditions. When we went to visit where I was born, which is a poor and third world country which has a rainy season and dry season, you collect water in a vat on top of the house for dry season. During dry season, you CONSERVE. My granny showed us how to wash our bodies every day in one 8 oz glass of water. However, she never showed us how to wash our hair (other than pointing to the bush, called 'scotchineal' which is something like aloe vera) and saying that me and my sister should use that to hairwash with instead of shampoo, which is damaging.
She had hair she sat on.
I do know from other family members that she washed it in two halves over a basin, keeping one side braided while she washed the other and also that she BBB'ed, although she was a curly, maybe a 2c or 3a (its hard to type people from photos, especially when they are stretching curls out with a BBB), and that she washed once weekly. I don't know how she conserved water washing all that hair though.
And all her kids. She had three daughters, and all of them also had very long and thick hair.
Hair in my dad's immediate family ranged from 1b to 3c. I am sure of this because I knew my aunts and uncles. Dad was a 3c and so was one sister. Just one sister had 1b. Everyone else was somewhere in between, but mostly type 2's. I guess my granny could have been any one of those (well, she was definitely neither 1b or 3c), but I will never know. People from my country aren't very descriptive about hair. Its either 'straight' or 'hard'. 'Straight' basically means anything that is not afro texture, including the whole range of curls. 'Hard' means afro texture and 'hard hard' means the tightest afro curls. 3c was/is (they've changed a little but not all that much) not considered to be 'hard hair', since you can definitely make it lie down (which is the acid test) but its not 'straight' hair, either, that would start at about 3b, if you had a 'silky' texture. The ins and outs of the system get me confused, they are so convuluted. Anyway, add the serious importance of making your hair look as 'straight' as possible to the difficulties of having almost no water to wash with half of the year. And it really was important--if two people applied for a job and one had 'hard' hair, they were not going to get it, sometimes even if WAY more qualified. that's improved now, thank goodness (though maybe only because with modern technology, its much harder to tell what someone's natural hair looks like, in the old days it was out there for everyone to see because they didn't even have straightening combs until about the 1950's).

Hibernis
July 29th, 2014, 12:32 PM
Very interested to see this thread has taken a turn towards describing hair washing in difficult conditions. When we went to visit where I was born, which is a poor and third world country which has a rainy season and dry season, you collect water in a vat on top of the house for dry season. During dry season, you CONSERVE. My granny showed us how to wash our bodies every day in one 8 oz glass of water. However, she never showed us how to wash our hair (other than pointing to the bush, called 'scotchineal' which is something like aloe vera) and saying that me and my sister should use that to hairwash with instead of shampoo, which is damaging.
She had hair she sat on.
I do know from other family members that she washed it in two halves over a basin, keeping one side braided while she washed the other and also that she BBB'ed, although she was a curly, maybe a 2c or 3a (its hard to type people from photos, especially when they are stretching curls out with a BBB), and that she washed once weekly. I don't know how she conserved water washing all that hair though.
And all her kids. She had three daughters, and all of them also had very long and thick hair.
Hair in my dad's immediate family ranged from 1b to 3c. I am sure of this because I knew my aunts and uncles. Dad was a 3c and so was one sister. Just one sister had 1b. Everyone else was somewhere in between, but mostly type 2's. I guess my granny could have been any one of those (well, she was definitely neither 1b or 3c), but I will never know. People from my country aren't very descriptive about hair. Its either 'straight' or 'hard'. 'Straight' basically means anything that is not afro texture, including the whole range of curls. 'Hard' means afro texture and 'hard hard' means the tightest afro curls. 3c was/is (they've changed a little but not all that much) not considered to be 'hard hair', since you can definitely make it lie down (which is the acid test) but its not 'straight' hair, either, that would start at about 3b, if you had a 'silky' texture. The ins and outs of the system get me confused, they are so convuluted. Anyway, add the serious importance of making your hair look as 'straight' as possible to the difficulties of having almost no water to wash with half of the year. And it really was important--if two people applied for a job and one had 'hard' hair, they were not going to get it, sometimes even if WAY more qualified. that's improved now, thank goodness (though maybe only because with modern technology, its much harder to tell what someone's natural hair looks like, in the old days it was out there for everyone to see because they didn't even have straightening combs until about the 1950's).

This is fascinating! I wonder if she would only clean the scalp and let the water run down and rinse the rest that way. Or if they had to do SO mostly during the dry season?

I find the bias against curlier hair both sad and interesting. I remember one time a little girl I knew really well (her hair is 3c, possibly even 4a) looked at me and said "I wish I had hair like you so I could be pretty". shudder: The media has clearly taught her that her hair is unpretty. Broke my heart :(

I wonder if there are other countries that have biases towards straight hair. And why?

kaydana
July 29th, 2014, 12:57 PM
Chen, I'm sure I'm going to word this badly, so please know I'm not trying to offend you or dismiss your opinions or anything like that. This is something I've been curious about for a while, so I hope you won't mind me asking you. Why do you find it offensive when someone breaks the third commandment? Is breaking the other commandments also offensive (I'm mostly thinking about one, two and four)? If not, why aren't they?

I don't think I've never seen anybody take offence at the others (not just thinking it's wrong, but actually feeling offended), but I suppose it's possible that they do and just don't feel able to voice it or maybe they just don't express that around me. I can sort of understand how someone could find breaking any of the commandments offensive, but I'm struggling to come up with an explanation for why some might be offensive and some wouldn't.

If you don't feel comfortable answering or I've offended you in any way by asking, I apologise. :flower:

(sorry, I realise I'm derailing the thread even further :oops: )

Shibe
July 29th, 2014, 01:05 PM
I'm happy Chen said something, because that did pull a string with me, as well.

I also think SarahTheGemini is very mature and gracious with the response she gave.

spirals
July 29th, 2014, 01:07 PM
Getting back to the subject at hand:
Ugh...I feel for you. Maybe your mom is not a controlling person overall, but this situation makes wonder if she is. If she is a controlling person, it likely won't go away when you turn 18. My mom still attempts to control me at times even though I'm 30, married, have a job, and own a home. Weigh the pros and cons of trying to stand up to your mom by what the likely consequences would be, then pick your battles. Either way remain calm and mature. I would get a dry cut if you go that route. Last time I got a wet cut it was uneven when it dried because I am wavy. Check my avatar to compare to your hair type, because YMMV.

This. You can either just do it in order to survive until you leave, or start asserting yourself now so you don't have to learn it all of a sudden at legal adulthood.

If you take the latter route, take Bene's advice and straight-out say "I do not consent to this, but I am being forced due to my minor status." Don't say it to the stylist; please don't put that person in an akward position. Ask for the manager and say it to him/her. It's the manager's job to deal with that kind of stuff; s/he has the authority to refuse your mom if s/he feels it's necessary. That way you're not really the bad guy and the poor stylist isn't, either.

Hibernis
July 29th, 2014, 01:10 PM
Chen, I'm sure I'm going to word this badly, so please know I'm not trying to offend you or dismiss your opinions or anything like that. This is something I've been curious about for a while, so I hope you won't mind me asking you. Why do you find it offensive when someone breaks the third commandment? Is breaking the other commandments also offensive (I'm mostly thinking about one, two and four)? If not, why aren't they?

I don't think I've never seen anybody take offence at the others (not just thinking it's wrong, but actually feeling offended), but I suppose it's possible that they do and just don't feel able to voice it or maybe they just don't express that around me. I can sort of understand how someone could find breaking any of the commandments offensive, but I'm struggling to come up with an explanation for why some might be offensive and some wouldn't.

If you don't feel comfortable answering or I've offended you in any way by asking, I apologise. :flower:

(sorry, I realise I'm derailing the thread even further :oops: )

I think it's cool that you asked that. Also this thread is becoming kind of cool.

When you use a religious figure to swear, you are taking something that is divine and good and using it to get across how ridiculous/bad something is, and therefore putting a name that should be used in blessing as a curse. If someone is very religious and gets a lot of comfort, emotional support, and hope from their religion, hearing their religious language used that way can be insulting because you are showing you don't respect the importance of (Jesus, God, etc) to them in their life.

Another reason people might be offended is because of the pure harshness: When someone says GD-it! You are quite literally requesting that God damn that thing/person, and when you think of it in a spiritual context, that's really harsh.

two_wheels
July 29th, 2014, 01:23 PM
I think Kaydana's question is interesting too, and I hope we can explore it in a non-conflict way, because I'm very interested in different opinions.

I am not traditionally-religious, yet I cringe at blasphemy too in certain contexts. I even use it when I talk with close friends and family who are not religious. But I would not use it when talking with a group of strangers. Some of my family are very religious and I know it would upset them, so I assume that if I don't know people, that might upset them in a similar way. It feels similar to swearing- I have a filthy mouth in private! But wouldn't shout a load of curse words to the world at large, as part of general conversation. (If I stub my toe, all bets are off.)

But why that particular commandment and not others- well, I should leave that to the believers, but I am interested too. To me it feels like direct mocking, whereas the other commandments (like having no other gods) are rather more subjective.

Maktub
July 29th, 2014, 02:08 PM
This makes me think of a personal story.

A very long time ago, I had a first (and only) date with a very nice anglophone practicing Muslim from Pakistan. English isn't my first language and I very rarely speak English (much worst than my written English, so you can imagine). I'm also shy and didn't have words and responses come up easily in the context. He was a funny guy telling lots of interesting stories. I kept hearing myself (spontaneously without thinking) respond "OMG!" a few times. Each time I was embarrassed by it, wondering if he was offended by it and telling myself to just stop saying it ! (I don't use such phrases in my first language). It is true that it is hard sometimes to change speaking the way we do, because speech is easily a mass phenomena : we tend to pick up the speaking habits of people around us without thinking much about it. But I think we should still aim at improving our bad speech habits, in particular those that can be hurtful to others (As for what happened with that nice guy, I declined going on a second date for reasons that had nothing to do with him or my inappropriate choice of words.)


I once had a very interesting conversation with my brother in law about the phrase "being proud of someone", which to him makes absolutely no sense, is not nice to the person, and that we should refrain from using (think about it ^^)

I think very good points were made above about "looking homeless", "Jesus Christ", etc.. I like how threads sometimes derail in ways that are really interesting and unexpected.

So much to learn, so much to improve about ourselves. Thanks to those who spoke up about being hurt, you make us grow and learn.

two_wheels
July 29th, 2014, 02:11 PM
For what it's worth, Maktub, I've read a few of your posts on here and had no idea English wasn't your first language :flower:

kaydana
July 29th, 2014, 02:37 PM
I think it's cool that you asked that. Also this thread is becoming kind of cool.

When you use a religious figure to swear, you are taking something that is divine and good and using it to get across how ridiculous/bad something is, and therefore putting a name that should be used in blessing as a curse. If someone is very religious and gets a lot of comfort, emotional support, and hope from their religion, hearing their religious language used that way can be insulting because you are showing you don't respect the importance of (Jesus, God, etc) to them in their life.

Another reason people might be offended is because of the pure harshness: When someone says GD-it! You are quite literally requesting that God damn that thing/person, and when you think of it in a spiritual context, that's really harsh.

I think what you're saying is it's not actually the breaking of the commandment that is offensive, but using a word they consider good and sacred to indicate something is bad? So it would be offensive even if it wasn't one of the commandments?

Assuming I've understood you correctly, that makes sense. Thank you for your explanation. :flower:

I'm still not totally clear on why people get offended by "oh my god!" because by saying "my" they indicate that they are talking about their own god, which may or may not be the same as yours. So maybe it should only be offensive if that person holds the same beliefs as you? If they don't share your beliefs, they are insulting their own god, not yours, so there shouldn't be anything to be offended by? :confused:

irodaryne
July 29th, 2014, 02:52 PM
I think what you're saying is it's not actually the breaking of the commandment that is offensive, but using a word they consider good and sacred to indicate something is bad? So it would be offensive even if it wasn't one of the commandments?

Assuming I've understood you correctly, that makes sense. Thank you for your explanation. :flower:

I'm still not totally clear on why people get offended by "oh my god!" because by saying "my" they indicate that they are talking about their own god, which may or may not be the same as yours. So maybe it should only be offensive if that person holds the same beliefs as you? If they don't share your beliefs, they are insulting their own god, not yours, so there shouldn't be anything to be offended by? :confused:

I appreciate you pointing that out the fact that people may be referencing other gods. When I say "oh my god" I'm usually referring to my god, as in the god I worship, as opposed to someone else's god. (I'm a polytheist which is kind of attached to the modern pagan religious umbrella thing) So... I guess it just depends on who's god is being referenced.

Maktub
July 29th, 2014, 03:07 PM
Perhaps. But in my own first date story, we do share the same beliefs, making my comments the more awkward ... like "OMG that's so funny!" (because I had such a hard time finding intelligent spontaneous things to say in English !). I didn't like it, but I remember kept spurting it out and keeping telling myself that it was wrong (to me (mostly because I was the one saying it - I don't get offended when others say it), and probably to him too).

Is there any linguistic exclamatory equivalent, without religious undertones ?

Maktub
July 29th, 2014, 03:14 PM
For what it's worth, Maktub, I've read a few of your posts on here and had no idea English wasn't your first language :flower:

That's so nice of you ! Thank you !

lapushka
July 29th, 2014, 03:14 PM
Would that be the POOF stage Lapushka? :lol:

I have a client who HAS a somewhat pixie cut and I would bet iii hair, she has to watch the nape or it stands up funny, she said.

No, just because of its thickness it feels like a cut lawn, instead of normal hair, not necessarily the poof.

irodaryne
July 29th, 2014, 03:15 PM
Perhaps. But in my own first date story, we do share the same God, making my comments the more awkward ... like "OMG that's so funny!" (because I had such a hard time finding intelligent spontaneous things to say in English !). I didn't like it, but I remember kept spurting it out and keeping telling myself that it was wrong (to me, and probably to him too).

Is there any linguistic exclamatory equivalent, without religious undertones ?
I've seen people say "oh my goodness" and "oh my stars" in lieu of saying "oh my God."

two_wheels
July 29th, 2014, 03:20 PM
Perhaps. But in my own first date story, we do share the same God, making my comments the more awkward ... like "OMG that's so funny!" (because I had such a hard time finding intelligent spontaneous things to say in English !). I didn't like it, but I remember kept spurting it out and keeping telling myself that it was wrong (to me (mostly because I was the one saying it - I don't get offended when others say it), and probably to him too).

Is there any linguistic exclamatory equivalent, without religious undertones ?

I had a sweet American friend who said 'oh my gosh'. I say 'yikes' or 'ouch' if it's bad or 'whoa' if it's good or 'wow' either way (just naturally comes out like that, I don't make a substitution in my head, brain-to-mouth here). Or I make a face.

florenonite
July 29th, 2014, 03:34 PM
I think what you're saying is it's not actually the breaking of the commandment that is offensive, but using a word they consider good and sacred to indicate something is bad? So it would be offensive even if it wasn't one of the commandments?

Assuming I've understood you correctly, that makes sense. Thank you for your explanation. :flower:

I'm still not totally clear on why people get offended by "oh my god!" because by saying "my" they indicate that they are talking about their own god, which may or may not be the same as yours. So maybe it should only be offensive if that person holds the same beliefs as you? If they don't share your beliefs, they are insulting their own god, not yours, so there shouldn't be anything to be offended by? :confused:

The translation of the third commandment I learned at school actually has nothing to do with using God/Jesus as a curse: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain". Taking the name in vain means swearing an oath upon it and breaking that oath, ie saying something like "I swear to God", and not following through on the threat.

Freija
July 29th, 2014, 04:02 PM
Perhaps. But in my own first date story, we do share the same God, making my comments the more awkward ... like "OMG that's so funny!" (because I had such a hard time finding intelligent spontaneous things to say in English !). I didn't like it, but I remember kept spurting it out and keeping telling myself that it was wrong (to me (mostly because I was the one saying it - I don't get offended when others say it), and probably to him too).

Is there any linguistic exclamatory equivalent, without religious undertones ?


There are lots. : ) I say, 'oh, gosh', or 'oh, goodness', or 'oh, wow' (esp. around my very strongly Christian relatives, out of deference to their wishes). 'No way!' or 'no - really?' if it's something completely out of left field. 'Heavens' is another one - slightly more religious, of course, but still not likely to offend. Or sometimes, when something is really serious or awful, so that it takes your breath away - or could have been - I say 'oh, glory'.

kaydana
July 29th, 2014, 04:19 PM
The translation of the third commandment I learned at school actually has nothing to do with using God/Jesus as a curse: "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain". Taking the name in vain means swearing an oath upon it and breaking that oath, ie saying something like "I swear to God", and not following through on the threat.

Aye, that's more like what I was taught it meant, but lots of people believe it means using at a curse word, hence taking offence at it, so I was interested in that point of view.

I didn't like to say that, because if I give my opinion on what the bible does or doesn't mean I usually get attacked for it as soon as people realise I don't believe (even if it's an opinion that was formed when I did) so I've taken to limiting most specific religious discussion to asking questions :shrug:

Kaelee
July 29th, 2014, 04:27 PM
I'm trying REALLY hard not to take the Lord's name lightly/in vain since I have converted to Christianity... I have a particularly foul mouth and old habits are hard to break.

For me, it's just disrespectful. Doesn't the Lord deserve better than to be used as an exclamation? It does not offend me when others do it (not much offends me) but I differently about it when I say it.

embee
July 29th, 2014, 04:44 PM
I have trouble too with bad words. My school experience was full of bad language and somehow I picked that up and ran with it. My childhood home language was always fine, but .... it's really tiresome to have to bite my tongue all the time because the words that come forth are "wrong". Most of the people I hang around with are older good Christian folk and they do not use bad language at all, so I'm really aware of my failings.

ooglipoo
July 29th, 2014, 04:52 PM
One of my favorite, that didn't sound to *me* like it would be considered taking the Lord's name in vain... I used to giggle to hear my ex say "Sweet Baby Jesus, when will you set my people free?" when something was particularly exasperating to him. He wasn't much for swearing or curses, but that one...

DaniJoy
July 29th, 2014, 05:46 PM
One of my favorite, that didn't sound to *me* like it would be considered taking the Lord's name in vain... I used to giggle to hear my ex say "Sweet Baby Jesus, when will you set my people free?" when something was particularly exasperating to him. He wasn't much for swearing or curses, but that one...

Tehe. I did giggle about this too and I am religious.


Also, I do love how this has turned a corner and become more about positive open talk. Although we all see things through our own filters of life I think it is ok to ask questions to things we are unsure about and talk with out taking offensive. Or being open to not offending others.

McFearless
July 30th, 2014, 09:41 AM
It seems a lot of people have experience with overbearing and controlling parents. Since this thread has triggered a few interesting conversations I'd like to ask: Why do some parents behave that way? And how can children overcome the effects of that? Is it possible?

meteor
July 30th, 2014, 09:50 AM
It seems a lot of people have experience with overbearing and controlling parents. Since this thread has triggered a few interesting conversations I'd like to ask: Why do some parents behave that way?
My take is: people in general can do a lot of terrible things while honestly believing that they are "loving" and "protecting" you, especially when they feel that they must "know best" and when they get emotional about control slipping out of their hands and fearing something bad is about to happen. This can be done not just by parents, but also significant others, friends, bosses, even governments! Fear is a big driver there.

And how can children overcome the effects of that? Is it possible?
Wisdom, understanding, love, compassion... But you already know it! :D

Kaelee
July 30th, 2014, 09:51 AM
It seems a lot of people have experience with overbearing and controlling parents. Since this thread has triggered a few interesting conversations I'd like to ask: Why do some parents behave that way? And how can children overcome the effects of that? Is it possible?

I honestly think some people just don't know better. They were raised that way so they think that's how it should be and never questioned it.

RockyLvsAdrian
July 30th, 2014, 10:32 AM
I've been reading the "controlling parents" threads with interest so here's my two pennies worth!

When I was a teenager, I was rebellious and argumentative and often moaned about my parents "controlling" me and trying to "make" me do things I didn't want to do. In reality, looking back as an adult, I did whatever I wanted anyway and so there wasn't really any "control", just an attempt to proect me from doing stupid things. I never did do anything that was stupid or dangerous but parents don't always know that and want to try and make you safe.

However, I think there's a HUGE difference between parents looking out for you by saying "please consider taking less luggage because we're limited for space" and saying "I forbid you to bring anything that I do not agree with and I don't need to give you a reason."

I pass no judgement on the OP or her family at all but without hearing the mother's side in this particular case, it's hard to know whether this is a classic case of parents "not understanding" their teenage daughters meticulousness about her hair (what teenager thinks their parents understand them?!) or the more worrying prospect of someone genuinely trying to control every thing you do/see/eat/drink etc.

I'm guessing, by the very fact that the OP can use internet forums etc. the mother may not be totally domineering and controlling but maybe a little strict? Not sure, but if it is the case that she is demanding total obedience with no logic, it is quite scary!

RockyLvsAdrian
July 30th, 2014, 10:32 AM
Duplicate post sorry!

eadwine
July 30th, 2014, 10:53 AM
No, just because of its thickness it feels like a cut lawn, instead of normal hair, not necessarily the poof.

Ahhh, thanks for clarifying!!

She's gonna get a cut like that.. I will ask if I can feel it *giggle*

Chromis
July 30th, 2014, 11:04 AM
I've been reading the "controlling parents" threads with interest so here's my two pennies worth!

When I was a teenager, I was rebellious and argumentative and often moaned about my parents "controlling" me and trying to "make" me do things I didn't want to do. In reality, looking back as an adult, I did whatever I wanted anyway and so there wasn't really any "control", just an attempt to proect me from doing stupid things. I never did do anything that was stupid or dangerous but parents don't always know that and want to try and make you safe.

However, I think there's a HUGE difference between parents looking out for you by saying "please consider taking less luggage because we're limited for space" and saying "I forbid you to bring anything that I do not agree with and I don't need to give you a reason."

I pass no judgement on the OP or her family at all but without hearing the mother's side in this particular case, it's hard to know whether this is a classic case of parents "not understanding" their teenage daughters meticulousness about her hair (what teenager thinks their parents understand them?!) or the more worrying prospect of someone genuinely trying to control every thing you do/see/eat/drink etc.

I'm guessing, by the very fact that the OP can use internet forums etc. the mother may not be totally domineering and controlling but maybe a little strict? Not sure, but if it is the case that she is demanding total obedience with no logic, it is quite scary!

I used the computers at school and at the library as a teen, so internet use alone does not always mean there is freedom at home.

Maktub
July 30th, 2014, 01:46 PM
It seems a lot of people have experience with overbearing and controlling parents. Since this thread has triggered a few interesting conversations I'd like to ask: Why do some parents behave that way? And how can children overcome the effects of that? Is it possible?

Some hypothesis that come to mind :

- Different parenting styles and personality : not everyone sees the role of the parent in the same way. To some, parenting = protecting = controlling/deciding/"knowing better than"
- The tendency to replicate the parenting models we have experienced or been influenced by
- The difficult transition to accepting the child is now adult, autonomous and different being from oneself (teens are also often experimenting with the absolute opposite of parents values and ideas)
- Letting go seems really hard, sometimes in particular for moms ?
- Transitions are stressful for everyone, parents and child, leading to more tensions


Can children overcome the effects ?

I think we all have our baggage and struggles, and yes, it is possible to overcome the effects of whatever happened in our past (controlling parents being an example among many). But it often takes time, patience and lots of self comprehension, empathy, maturity, introspection, etc.

Can we exist as if the past and it's didn't happen ? I don't think so. It's a mixture of our power of having some self-determination and our powerlessness to the more holistic, general, environments, contexts and people that we marinate in.




.

Trinka
July 30th, 2014, 02:52 PM
So appreciated the balance and wisdom of this post Chen Bao Jun!

UGH - sorry - thought the reply went below the post to which you were replying)

Jennah
July 30th, 2014, 03:17 PM
This is fascinating!
I wonder if there are other countries that have biases towards straight hair. And why?

That was a fascinating story indeed!!! Thanks for sharing.

Btw, I´m not sure about bias towards straight hair from different countries...But I remember reading an article about a pretty girl posting two profiles in online dating: the same girl, same clothes, same smile, all the same but one with her natural curly hair, and the other with perfectly straightened out hair.

Well, the results were overwhelming!!! She got many more responses with the straight hair, and many more likes: "The flat-ironed look 181 emails, compared to 60 for the curly profile."

Here is the article (http://bettyconfidential.com/ar/ld/a/curly-versus-straight-hair.html) if you care to read.

Sorry to be off topic OP! :heart:

I think your hair is beautiful and sorry about your mom minding your business!

I can totally relate to that because I have curly hair and my mom can´t stand looking at my hair being "messy" so I have to constantly have it in a pony tail or half up. She can´t stand hair on the face either, and a million other things that I have to "obey" otherwise she´ll be such a pain that I rather avoid that.

Good luck with whatever you decide! Hope whatever you do makes your hair turn out fantastic!

Shibe
July 30th, 2014, 04:43 PM
That was a fascinating story indeed!!! Thanks for sharing.

Btw, I´m not sure about bias towards straight hair from different countries...But I remember reading an article about a pretty girl posting two profiles in online dating: the same girl, same clothes, same smile, all the same but one with her natural curly hair, and the other with perfectly straightened out hair.

Well, the results were overwhelming!!! She got many more responses with the straight hair, and many more likes: "The flat-ironed look 181 emails, compared to 60 for the curly profile."

Here is the article (http://bettyconfidential.com/ar/ld/a/curly-versus-straight-hair.html) if you care to read.

Sorry to be off topic OP! :heart:

I think your hair is beautiful and sorry about your mom minding your business!

I can totally relate to that because I have curly hair and my mom can´t stand looking at my hair being "messy" so I have to constantly have it in a pony tail or half up. She can´t stand hair on the face either, and a million other things that I have to "obey" otherwise she´ll be such a pain that I rather avoid that.

Good luck with whatever you decide! Hope whatever you do makes your hair turn out fantastic!

The article made my jaw drop!

Many of the men on her dates said 'they didn't care'', but the numbers kind of say differently :-/

lauren_alia
July 30th, 2014, 05:01 PM
That was a fascinating story indeed!!! Thanks for sharing.

Btw, I´m not sure about bias towards straight hair from different countries...But I remember reading an article about a pretty girl posting two profiles in online dating: the same girl, same clothes, same smile, all the same but one with her natural curly hair, and the other with perfectly straightened out hair.

Well, the results were overwhelming!!! She got many more responses with the straight hair, and many more likes: "The flat-ironed look 181 emails, compared to 60 for the curly profile."

Here is the article (http://bettyconfidential.com/ar/ld/a/curly-versus-straight-hair.html) if you care to read.

Sorry to be off topic OP! :heart:

I think your hair is beautiful and sorry about your mom minding your business!

I can totally relate to that because I have curly hair and my mom can´t stand looking at my hair being "messy" so I have to constantly have it in a pony tail or half up. She can´t stand hair on the face either, and a million other things that I have to "obey" otherwise she´ll be such a pain that I rather avoid that.

Good luck with whatever you decide! Hope whatever you do makes your hair turn out fantastic!
Hmmm, that article is really interesting. I wonder if the same would hold true if it was repeated on a larger scale. Maybe men just preferred that woman with her hair straightened, and if the same kind of experiment was repeated with 50 different women with curly hair vs. straight hair pics there would be a more even spread of interest in the hairtypes? Also, I noticed she did one picture for a month and the other one the following month, so it could have been that the difference in amount of attention she received had something to do with that... I mean, maybe she would have gotten more attention the first month anyway, regardless of the hair, just because it was a busier month for online dating in general- or something like that. :confused:

Jennah
July 30th, 2014, 05:16 PM
Hmmm, that article is really interesting. I wonder if the same would hold true if it was repeated on a larger scale. Maybe men just preferred that woman with her hair straightened, and if the same kind of experiment was repeated with 50 different women with curly hair vs. straight hair pics there would be a more even spread of interest in the hairtypes?

Yeah, dunno, but it seems like men love women with straight hair. I even noticed that as a curly, and it seems like women admire more the curly hair than men do. Long straight hair makes heads turn for some reason...

Jennah
July 30th, 2014, 05:16 PM
The article made my jaw drop!

Many of the men on her dates said 'they didn't care'', but the numbers kind of say differently :-/

Yeah, and then when they met with her looking differently some didn´t seem to mind. Go figure men.

McFearless
July 30th, 2014, 06:14 PM
My take is: people in general can do a lot of terrible things while honestly believing that they are "loving" and "protecting" you, especially when they feel that they must "know best" and when they get emotional about control slipping out of their hands and fearing something bad is about to happen. This can be done not just by parents, but also significant others, friends, bosses, even governments! Fear is a big driver there.

Wisdom, understanding, love, compassion... But you already know it! :D

Thank you. :flower: I can really relate to this. My mom has never had any malicious intent towards me but she was very overbearing when I was younger and I think it has caused some permanent issues. I always hear about children who grow older but never "up" and I just get really worried.


I honestly think some people just don't know better. They were raised that way so they think that's how it should be and never questioned it.

Very true.



Some hypothesis that come to mind :

- Different parenting styles and personality : not everyone sees the role of the parent in the same way. To some, parenting = protecting = controlling/deciding/"knowing better than"
- The tendency to replicate the parenting models we have experienced or been influenced by
- The difficult transition to accepting the child is now adult, autonomous and different being from oneself (teens are also often experimenting with the absolute opposite of parents values and ideas)
- Letting go seems really hard, sometimes in particular for moms ?
- Transitions are stressful for everyone, parents and child, leading to more tensions


Can children overcome the effects ?

I think we all have our baggage and struggles, and yes, it is possible to overcome the effects of whatever happened in our past (controlling parents being an example among many). But it often takes time, patience and lots of self comprehension, empathy, maturity, introspection, etc.

Can we exist as if the past and it's didn't happen ? I don't think so. It's a mixture of our power of having some self-determination and our powerlessness to the more holistic, general, environments, contexts and people that we marinate in.


Thank you. This gives me lots to think about.

trolleypup
July 30th, 2014, 06:43 PM
And there is always "Get out and never go back."

Tall Blond(ish)
July 30th, 2014, 09:57 PM
It seems a lot of people have experience with overbearing and controlling parents. Since this thread has triggered a few interesting conversations I'd like to ask: Why do some parents behave that way? And how can children overcome the effects of that? Is it possible?

I've observed some parents who see their children as an extension of themselves. They fear being judged if their children don't project the same standards they hold for themselves, and feel they have the right and the obligation to ensure their children don't reflect badly on them.

I suppose the child needs to talk with the parent and figure out a way to establish her own, separate identity and help the parent accept it. Some parents are better at this transition than others.

hairpleasegrow
July 30th, 2014, 11:42 PM
Quote Originally Posted by McFearless View Post
It seems a lot of people have experience with overbearing and controlling parents. Since this thread has triggered a few interesting conversations I'd like to ask: Why do some parents behave that way? And how can children overcome the effects of that? Is it possible?
___________________

My response to McFearless post below (sorry I cut and pasted the above instead of using the "reply with quote" button):

I come from parents who weren't really around. I lived with my single mother and my brother growing up. I've always thought my mom should have parented me more. Especially when I was a teen.

My son is very young and I haven't been through any of the teenage years. I am the controlling type but I'm trying to lighten up.

My mom's parents were really strict, she said that was why she was so hands off with me.

Maybe in a way some of us rebel against our parents (even with our parenting style?) Or … maybe I am strict to somehow overcompensate for where my mom lacked in the parenting department.

McFearless
July 30th, 2014, 11:57 PM
I've observed some parents who see their children as an extension of themselves. They fear being judged if their children don't project the same standards they hold for themselves, and feel they have the right and the obligation to ensure their children don't reflect badly on them.

I suppose the child needs to talk with the parent and figure out a way to establish her own, separate identity and help the parent accept it. Some parents are better at this transition than others. I agree with you. I can relate to this unfortunately.



I come from parents who weren't really around. I lived with my single mother and my brother growing up. I've always thought my mom should have parented me more. Especially when I was a teen.

My son is very young and I haven't been through any of the teenage years. I am the controlling type but I'm trying to lighten up.

My mom's parents were really strict, she said that was why she was so hands off with me.

Maybe in a way some of us rebel against our parents (even with our parenting style?) Or … maybe I am strict to somehow overcompensate for where my mom lacked in the parenting department.

I can definitely see how recognizing a deficiency in needs being met as a child/teen would motivate someone to take a different approach with their own children. That demonstrates awareness and I think that's really great. I suppose it can become an issue when the parent is being motivated by their own pain and projecting that onto their child + being unable to see them as a separate human being with their own unique personality and needs.