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hexbomb
June 24th, 2014, 07:52 PM
So, I kind of suck at finding split ends, and therefore I can't imagine doing S&D, because you have to find them before you can destroy them. I was therefore thinking about going to my salon and getting a trim...maybe? But it seems ridiculous to spend $25 dollars so they can wash, dry and cut my hair for a trim (especially since I've started CWC), and a waste of a trip. I was looking at the website and they offer two Keratin treatments, a wild ginger Paul Mitchell one and a Brazilian one. TI have a serum with Brazilian keratin in to prevent breaks in the future (OGX, I think? It's a kind of cocoa-colored bottle) so I was thinking about getting that done, especially as it sounds pretty good. The website says:

Brazilian Keratin Treatment:
What is it? It is a revolutionary process that softens, shines, straightens and makes the hair healthy. It penetrates the hair repairing internal damage and coats the hair preventing further damage. The results are smooth, silky and straight hair.It is not a chemical that restructures the hair.It is a replenshing treatment that reconditions and protects the hair from water and heat damage while enhancing it's natural shine.

The downside is, it's $225 dollars, whereas the ginger one is $25. I know I'm new to intentionally growing my hair, or even taking serious care of it, so I'd appreciate the help. Are either of these worth it?

YamaMaya
June 24th, 2014, 08:00 PM
Erm, keratin treatments are very risky business. I personally would say not to do it. If your issue is s&d you can simply self trim a few times a year to keep damage at bay. No trip to the salon necessary, there is lots of info on how to self trim here and other long hair sites, blogs, and youtube channels.

kitcatsmeow
June 24th, 2014, 08:10 PM
What Yama said! Before LHC I did two brazillian keratin treatments. The first time it was ok and it did make my hair look and feel great....for a while. Then it started wearing off. Getting another one was a horrible mistake. It fried my hair and it started breaking and I inevitably had to chop off 6 inches.

hexbomb
June 24th, 2014, 08:16 PM
Wow. That's horrible! When the site said it wasn't chemical, I thought it would be a good thing. :( Does this mean that OGX serum is bad for my hair too? Because I definitely don't want to lose length. To be more specific it's OGX's Brazilian Keratin Therapy Anti-Breakage Serum. If the treatment is that bad, is this stuff bad too?

MINAKO
June 24th, 2014, 08:17 PM
first of all, there is no such thing as a main difference between a bazilian treatment or another one, they all work the same way. i live in germany so stuff like formaldehyde was never an issue here and all the product themselves are safe, but that does not mean the application is. tbh, i perform them on myself, because i do know how to do it gentle, but would never let a stylist fry my hair with 10 passes of the iron at 450 degrees. it does ALWAYS sound great at first, do some research before heading ino it, about the product they will use and also the technique.

kitcatsmeow
June 24th, 2014, 08:28 PM
Wow. That's horrible! When the site said it wasn't chemical, I thought it would be a good thing. :( Does this mean that OGX serum is bad for my hair too? Because I definitely don't want to lose length. To be more specific it's OGX's Brazilian Keratin Therapy Anti-Breakage Serum. If the treatment is that bad, is this stuff bad too?

I'm not sure what the ingredients are in the serum but IMO anything with a lot of chemicals is not good for me or my hair. Like Minako said, the application is a big part of why it's so bad for your hair. And depending on the treatment, there may be formaldehyde and many other bad chemicals.

I just got a trim but no wash. You can request a dry trim which is what I do.

Anje
June 24th, 2014, 08:29 PM
Personally, I'd say to steer clear of all that stuff. The current salon "keratin treatments" won't strengthen your hair or prevent damage; they typically end up causing it.

If you think your hair could benefit from a protein treatment to help strengthen it and help out resist breakage, that's a different thing. There are some commercial products ranging from "reconstructing" conditions on the milder end to products like Aphogee's 2 Step protein treatment on the heavy-duty end. These can be drying, so you'll want to follow up with a good moisturizing conditioner afterward.

For existing splits, though, just give your hair a small trim on the ends. Get some proper hair shears for it (no kitchen or paper scissors). Here are good instructions. (http://feyeselftrim.livejournal.com)

MINAKO
June 24th, 2014, 09:07 PM
you could actually use a keratin straightening product with saran wrap and a hot towel if it is a good one. there is no need for much ingredients in there, mainly it should be a modified form of keratin and tons of other harnful stuff. with the flat ironing it still makes an excelent protein treatment for me. i do this when im just to lazy for the entire process and i blosws many other protein treatment out of the water. i have tried the aphogee two step and absolutely prefer the dikson keratin. using a heat tool im not sure if it really does seal the hair, but i never get any split end, which could also be a result of heavy oiling and daily bunning tbh.

ErinLeigh
June 24th, 2014, 10:53 PM
There are salon keratin treatments in which the keratin is sealed into hair using a flat iron. This makes hair looks shiny and smooth. For me and many others repeated applications caused fried, broken hair. A combination of poor quality product and too high and too many heat passes are usually the cause.
There are some at home types that you can purchase online but I haven't looked into them enough to be able to comment.

Some keratin "treatments" that are found in drugstores are just conditioning products with use of hydrolyzed keratin are actually nice. They do help strengthen, smooth and retain moisture by penetrating the hair shaft. Honestly if it were me I would try some conditioner based ones that do not require the heat and see how your hair reacts to proteins first before thinking about anything else. The Paul Mitchell ingredients look like a typical conditioner (just expensive one.) Does it have a flat iron step? I am not understanding that one. I see a 3 step shampoo, conditioner and serum but I can't find directions.

I used products with hydrolyzed protein in it and love the results (I bleach so I need it) but I can honestly say I would never do a salon keratin treatment again. I lost a foot of hair over the last 2 years because of them.

MINAKO
June 24th, 2014, 11:17 PM
i actually use john friedas three day straight styling spray as a protein leave in sometimes, its a bit sticky but once rinsed out gives a nice fullness and bounce to the hair. as for the excessive heat during the treatment, its almost like thermalaxing and the straightness would never come from the keratin alone. when i do it at home myself i use lower heat and two pases, which is just enough to align my wave pattern an tame frizzies but it doesnt dramatically change my texture to something i would call straight

LadyCelestina
June 25th, 2014, 01:07 AM
Why is hair left straight after the treatment /if I understand it correctly/ for longer than one wash?

leilani
June 25th, 2014, 02:04 AM
Why not just use a hair mask with eggs and a few other nice things whipped in, if your hair needs protein?

hexbomb
June 25th, 2014, 02:13 AM
Thanks everyone. There are so many things I never considered and don't know about when it comes to hair. I'm going to avoid the treatments all together and try to figure out a way to find split ends instead. I don't know if my hair needs protein or not. How can you tell if it does? I've just been using standard shampoos and conditioners for so long, that all the different kinds of things for 'healthy' hair throw me off. There's so much information in these forums, it can get a bit overwhelming. Which is not to say I don't like it here, because I really do love it! It just feels like I sometimes need a 'Taking Care of Your Hair for Dummies' book.

MINAKO
June 25th, 2014, 02:23 AM
the hair is left straight mainly because of the hight heat, if you dont fry the hair it does revert, but in a smoother more contoled manner.
the protein in eggs is not comparable because its too large to penetrate the hairshaft.

there is no overall reason the be scared of keratin as an ingredient at all, because in the end its the stuff your hair is made of in the first place, its very reasonably considered the most effective of proteins, but you need to learn how to use it and how much is good for your hair. in the end something like olive oil for example is just as much of a chemical. not every single ingredient that doesnt directly come from a plant in an unaltered state is harmful to the hair. so before you avoid something or choose it, just read about and see what works for you. there is no guide for dummies and no ultimate way in terms of good hair care. its an individual learning process. good luck in making things work, you will eventually get there.

BroomHilda
June 25th, 2014, 02:27 AM
I ve been doing Brazilian keratin treatments for 3 years in a row. After the first application in a salon I ordered mine and do it myself at home.

Before you crusify this treatment you'd better know some facts.
The treatment itself, the solution, has not one damaging ingredient. I ve been examining the ingr. lists on every keratin I was intending to buy. Usually it has ingredients found in many conditioners. Emollients, hydrolyzed types of protein, aminos and some silicons. Aldehydes are those who bond all these to the hair for a somewhat temporary manner.
Your hair will remain straight (if you have wavy hair) for just a few weeks and it ll start to regain its curls after that time.
It will revert completely after 3-5 months depending onthe hair type, number of washes per week and how many BKTs have been previously done.

If damage occurs, thats because you applied way too much heat for your hair type. That is if you have very fine hair, bleached or extremely damaged and on top of that you perform many iron passes.

I wouldn't suggest a treatment like that for those who have very fine and straight hair. There is really no reason. But it could be a life saviorm for those with medium to coarse, wavy or curly and thick or unrully hair.
It does protect somewhat from mechanical, chemical and water damage.

MINAKO
June 25th, 2014, 02:34 AM
BromHilda, well said. i also do it at home myself and doubt i would have made it to almost classic in no time without. i hardly ever trim and detangling freshly keratined hair is a dream for my mixed textured hair.. ive had probably about 10 applications of various intensity over the last 2.5 yearsand no negative expiriences to report.

BroomHilda
June 25th, 2014, 02:40 AM
+1 to what you ve said about eggs. Its the stupidest thing to do put whole foods on your hair that are way far from being able to penatrate SOMEWHAT to it. Too big molecules to do a thing.

You really made it to classic with BKTs?
I had some doubts lately about what longterm effect repeated applications would have. Thats a great thing to read

leilani
June 25th, 2014, 02:42 AM
Is there any benefit to those of us with straight, not easily tangled, hair with uniform texture?

BroomHilda
June 25th, 2014, 02:50 AM
Most propably you ll get stick straight hair. If you have medium to coarse hair it s unlikely to get damage from the first application even from an untrained stylist.
If you already have well conditioned, non frizzy, non dry hair i would call it rather a waste of money. But If you battle with dryness, flyways, frizz and stuff, I d say try it. Couldnt go wrong.

BroomHilda
June 25th, 2014, 02:51 AM
double post

Bitstuff
June 25th, 2014, 03:06 AM
If your hair is damaged, protein treatments are supposed to be very good. I haven't tried it yet but I have an order of hydrolysed wheat protein on its way to me to try it out as advised in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h94sttpT8bk She says that the protein molecules in egg etc. stuff found in the kitchen are too large to penetrate into the hair shaft.

I don't have any advice about keratin treatments but if you have fine hair, like you do, then high heat is always a bad idea.

MINAKO
June 25th, 2014, 03:08 AM
BroomHilda, yes, i did have a big chop after a japanese straightening went bad and used the keratin ever since. im at about 41 inches now with a blunt hemline and not visible damage. i used to do the treatments every 3months properly with the recommended flatironing, just turned down the heat to what i know my hair can usually handle and also not saw a point in doing a hell lot of passes. since i have the salon size bottle anyways i sometimes just take the treatment and work it into damp hair with an ultrasonic iron, then let it sit overnight, so no heat at all. one thing i think of as really important is to also invest in the righttools to work with.

leilani, i think apart from making healthy and straight hair heavier, the treatment wouldnt do kuch, maybe it would seal the cuticle somewhat if performed properly and protect from splits. personally i would not pull myself trough the process in that case tho.

LadyCelestina
June 25th, 2014, 05:44 AM
Thanks MINAKO!
So basically it means you burn your hair to break the bonds and the keratin fills the gaps so that the hair doesn't look damaged or break off.And it stays like that until the keratin what...wears off?Possibly yes.

I can see how this would work if you do it regularly.

MINAKO
June 25th, 2014, 06:05 AM
yes exactly, the coating keeps the hair intact even if its wrecked from the immense heat. its just to weak to revert. everytime it wears off i suppose there would also be a big deal of cuticle be going down the drain, the damage will show sooner or later if the treatment was too strong. imho, the high heat is is used to give control to even the frizziest of heads and make people look super polished when they leave the salon. which is really sad, because going halfway and slowly let the hair benefit from the good sides of the treatment is possible, many people have just been unlucky.

ErinLeigh
June 25th, 2014, 10:34 AM
I have been looking to find info on the wear off. I read that people state the bonded keratin when as it fades can actually pull the hairs natural keratin with it. I read it in many comment sections but have not been able to find any studies on if it is true or not. If anyone knows one way or other please direct me.

It is very true about the heat too. There was no need for my fine, color treated hair to have 15 passes at 450. It burned my hair beyond repair.
I have had ones with heat turned down and still had fried results...and have had some at the same temperature that came out amazing. It is such a crap shoot for me that I cannot find them worth it. The aldahydes upset my senses also and the fumes are just too strong for my comfort level. One thing I find odd is how they change the color of my hair. Hair lightens up when done.

BroomHilda
June 26th, 2014, 06:03 AM
I have been looking to find info on the wear off. I read that people state the bonded keratin when as it fades can actually pull the hairs natural keratin with it. I read it in many comment sections but have not been able to find any studies on if it is true or not. If anyone knows one way or other please direct me.



Lol. How did they come up with this assumption? Any "reasonable" explanation?

MINAKO
June 26th, 2014, 08:28 AM
I would think of it as the chemically modified Keratin being more heat resistant that the one thats in the natural hair below, so the top layer would still look fine in the beginning, even if the hair was burned. But when this starts to wear off, all the fried scales of the cuticle tht has been damaged by heat fall off in the same way they would have if we ironed our hair at 450F and many passes without the treatment in it.
I live in germany and when i originally wanted to do it at a salon they told me it's gonna cost like 350,- euros or more. so i bought a bottle of the treatment and a top range flat iron and started to expiriment myself, cause i wasn't willing to sheel out on the touch up all the time anyways.
Working with the product made me realize that the instructions for the highest level of heat are crap, so i used it differently and it turns out amazingly shiny, soft and no breakage or splits at all.
I would suggest to look at the ingredient and choose a quality product with hydrolized keratin as a second ingredient right after the water. No Formaldehyde needed at all. These products are prohibited in germany, regardless of the concentration, so i cant compare the two but never expirienced any fumes that would be worse than a normal heat protectant.

chen bao jun
June 26th, 2014, 09:46 AM
Minako, I am so glad for you that you figured this out and your hair looks great--but my, it sounds terrifying!

leilani
June 26th, 2014, 12:16 PM
Broomhilda, no need to call out my idea about eggs as stupid.
I didn't know that about the protein not penetrating, I read that they were a good hair product because of reasons including protein. Regsrdless, they are the best shampoo& conditioner in one I've ever used! I thought I couldn't use them more than 1-2 times a month to cleanse/moisturize my hair because of protein overload risk. So I'm thrilled to hear there's not a good reason to avoid often putting eggs on my hair!

BroomHilda
June 26th, 2014, 02:10 PM
Leilani, no offence, it s not your idea I called stupid. Egg recipes for hair is a very common myth which many believe being effective but has no actual benefit. It wasnt personal

MINAKO
June 26th, 2014, 02:42 PM
@chen, yes i'm really happy it works and gives me the option to wear my hair bone straight (at least temporarily) without causing any damage and also helps with controlling my natural texture.

@eggs... i believe them to be a quiet gentle option to cleanse and also they might be moisturizing and strengthening to some degree, the protein might not penetrate but at least coat larger gaps at the very top of the cuticle until the next wash. Not sure if the oils contained in the yolk have an actual benefit. I personally wouldn't use them myself as i prefer something with stronger treatment properties and find them messy to rinse out, but there's nothing wrong with using them if one doesn't expect a dramatic change from doing so.

meteor
June 26th, 2014, 02:55 PM
Broomhilda, no need to call out my idea about eggs as stupid.
I didn't know that about the protein not penetrating, I read that they were a good hair product because of reasons including protein. Regsrdless, they are the best shampoo& conditioner in one I've ever used! I thought I couldn't use them more than 1-2 times a month to cleanse/moisturize my hair because of protein overload risk. So I'm thrilled to hear there's not a good reason to avoid often putting eggs on my hair!

While they aren't a source of hydrolyzed protein, eggs (yolks) are a good source of cholesterol and lecithin, which is quite beneficial for hair, especially dry hair (http://www.schwarzkopf.com/sk/en/home/hair_care/protecting_pampering/care_tips/lecithin.html), so they can be quite beneficial anyway. I personally would much rather eat eggs than use them on hair, but they can probably help topically, too.
If you are really into DIY and natural protein treatments, check out gelatin (http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.ca/2014/04/gelatin-protein-treatment-recipe-update.html or vegan alternatives beer and soy sauce). Those are hydrolyzed/fermented forms of protein, so they can work reasonably well.


I have a question: is it safe to use those "Brazilian" keratin treatment products without any heat just to give my hair a mega-dose of protein as a powerful conditioning pack? Or are those products somewhat damaging even without the heat and without the formaldehyde?

BroomHilda
June 26th, 2014, 03:23 PM
the treatments have no damaging ingredients. Hoewver it could be the case that they don't contain much protein, or not at all.
They are too expensive to use them as conditioners and they are no better than a regural conditioner with hydrolized protein.
If you dont plan to use iron and heat, don't even bother with BKTs

chen bao jun
June 26th, 2014, 03:32 PM
Eggs definitely make a great shampoo. There is a thread on them somewhere here.

MINAKO
June 26th, 2014, 03:48 PM
I agree with BroomHilda, the keratin solution is just too expensive to be used as a conditioner frequently, i payed 200,- euros for a liter bottle. But i tried it and it does come out nice. Mine has a very high content of keratin so it works reasonably well, but at least i use am ultrasonic iron along with it to get the most out of the treament while avoiding the heat. Otherwise something like Aphogee 2 Step or Sebastian Texture Mix might be more efficient.