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View Full Version : Theory on fine hair and density



MandyBeth
April 18th, 2014, 03:24 AM
Way back in my early days here, there was a thread on measuring your hair strands via a home laser. The red dot pet toy lasers, you hold a strand in front of the beam and measure between the breaks in the beam if I remember right. Big part was I was one of a few who had literally cat fine hair. My coarse grays get to normal fine thickness.

My ponytail measures in around a high i or low ii. I have bangs, so it's not exact.

However, I have the thick hair issues. I'm back to shoulder and can't even start an English braid. I snap plastic anything. My scalp is not visible outside of my part.

Which leads to my theory. Very fine hair can compact down tighter than average, thus leading to an artificially low thickness.

I know my hair compacts tight. If I do a twisted bun, I have to loosen the natural twist to get even an Amish pin in. That's why plastic snaps and Dymondwood delaminates. Yes, seriously, it splits apart between the layers. I've warped Argus and Quattro titanium. A French braid is painfully hard to lay on. However, if I try to keep a normal tension on a ponytail, the very fine side balks and lets any holder slip out. So I have to get that compaction.

Adding the parts together is my suspicion on why past APL is a wreck. My hair is very fine and thus suspect to mechanical damage. However, either I can't put it up to protect from damage or I have to tighten anything hard thus causing damage.

I may be totally off base on this. But that's the only reason why I can think of on why I have the thick hair issues with a thin hair diameter.

Crumpet
April 18th, 2014, 03:33 AM
I think you are correct. My hair packs down into very little, but I do have lots of it. I think that many fineys are in the same situation. We often look like we have lots of hair when it is down...because we DO have lots of hair. Our hair just lies more efficiently when we put it up. I also have the issue of weaving pins in and such because of the compaction. Its an interesting problem!

Rosa Harris
April 18th, 2014, 04:19 AM
Same here = tiny bun but a huge floaty fluff ball when its down. I have special made short hair sticks that have a sharp point so i can get it to go through the hair and a cord attached that I wrap around and secure with another smaller pointed hair stick (about 3 inches) at the other end. This hold the fluff up very securely - I can sleep in these and it stays put.

followingup
April 18th, 2014, 05:41 AM
yes! people keep saying my hair is so thin and fine so i must have very little hair. but as a matter of fact my hair looks fuller than theirs when its down.

Nadine <3
April 18th, 2014, 05:51 AM
My hair compacts into nothing as well. I have a hard time getting pins through it, but my hair also looks pretty fine when it's down too...unless it's freshly washed. I can get some good volume going :)

lapushka
April 18th, 2014, 09:11 AM
My hair compacts as well, and it's baby F, but it's still 4.25". I have your issues times two, almost.

chen bao jun
April 18th, 2014, 09:45 AM
If you have a lot of hair, you have a lot of hair. It's still a lot of hair whether its a lot of coarse hair or a lot of fine hair. It's still a lot of hair whether other people believe it is or not. I have the issue where my hair being so curly looks a lot shorter than it is, and people don't believe that it can possibly really be brastrap--but it still behaves like brastrap hair, I can do buns you can't do until you're that length.
It seems to me that the issue that most of you arereally having is this one, where people think buns should be a certain size which is unrealistic even for coarse haired people with a lot of long hair:
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=121443

MsBubbles
April 18th, 2014, 10:06 AM
I concur with the OP, at least regarding tightly-packed updos. Thin metal Quattro sticks are about the best thing if I try any kind of twisty bun. The twisted part is so densely packed, I can't get any thing thicker than a Quattro into it to hold it up, without snapping and popping my strands. For this reason so many sticks out there just don't work. I can only use my acrylics with a wrapping-style bun.

I'm not upset about it though, it just is what it is! :D

Beborani
April 18th, 2014, 10:14 AM
That would be my daughter. Her hair is very pretty but cant grown too long without getting damaged and she is not a lhc gal. She doesnt use heat or dye her hair but it gets damaged when she wears it down but she looks oh so pretty that it dosn't matter in the least except for the pangs she gets when she sees my longer hair.

jeanniet
April 18th, 2014, 10:48 AM
Yep, I've said this for a while now. The ponytail measurement as a comparison is totally inaccurate because it doesn't take into account the thickness of individual strands, and obviously someone with coarse strands is going to measure a larger circumference than someone with an equal number of fine strands. The only really accurate measure of density (vs. strand thickness) is to count the individual hairs in a square inch of scalp, probably in several areas on the head. And I'm certainly not going to do that! :p So people with fine hair and a smaller ponytail measurement really shouldn't be bothered by it at all. IMO, the only real use for the ponytail measurement is for the individual who is concerned about excessive shedding, and even then it's not that great because there's so much room for error in measurement (placement, degree of compression, etc.).

Aderyn
April 18th, 2014, 11:29 AM
Definitely true. My hair has a pony tail circumference of ~4 inches, but there is a lot of hair up there.

Ponytail as a measurement alone is not the whole picture, but when combined with the individual strand density, as is typical to see on hair-typing information, it actually can be quite helpful and informative. Not flawless, but informative, nonetheless.

MandyBeth
April 18th, 2014, 01:10 PM
I can't say it bothers me, just more curious.

I had a massive shed post spay, I was well into iii territory prior. That was fun. But I'm really not sorry that I had the shed.

But I give up on thin hair normal now. Mine may be that in theory, it's not close in reality. Only problems are the compaction making most toys impossible to wear and the difficulty in growing much past SL.

chen bao jun
April 18th, 2014, 01:42 PM
Yeah, I also think ponytail measurement doesn't say all that much. It's just about impossible to do it twice and get the same measurement (my coarse hair 'poufs' so I have a distinctly bigger ponytail measurement some days than others) and anyway, I think that people have a good idea of whether their hair is thick, just from living. If you break normal hairtoys from the drugstore, your hair is thick as in, there's lots of it, whether its coarse or fine. If hairdressers complain about your hair, it is thick. I know plenty of people with thin but high density hair and they always talk about how the minute they sit in the chair, the hairdresser will say, you have fine hair, but there's so MUCH of it. they should know (they usually are not happy, but that is another story).
If you don't think have thick hair, you most probably have 'normal' hair, no problem with that (except here on LHC where it seems to be a pissing contests of sorts, no matter how many times its pointed out that this is silly).
If you actually do have thin hair, that doesn't mean your hair looks bad. I have two friends with the most beautiful hair, which is thin (low density)and fine. Both have ethereal and floaty hair which makes them look like fairy princesses. Of course they can't fit hairtoys from the opposite end than me (everything slides off or their hair just falls down), however with my new LHC knowledge (partly from hanging on out on fine hair threads like this, even though I am a thickie), I have been able to help them find toys that work and give suggestions as to updoes and so forth.
Mandy Beth, when was the shed? It seems like people do grow back post shed. Have you tried rubbing on castor oil, it thickened up my 80+ year old mom a lot, even filled in actual bald spots.

MandyBeth
April 18th, 2014, 09:42 PM
Ages ago. That shed is permanent. My mom had similar shed when she had her spay, so it's part genetics also. But I am getting the post knee reconstruction shed to grow back. I've got a 10 month old division going on but it's not really strong.

jeanniet
April 18th, 2014, 10:05 PM
I can't say it bothers me, just more curious.

I had a massive shed post spay, I was well into iii territory prior. That was fun. But I'm really not sorry that I had the shed.

But I give up on thin hair normal now. Mine may be that in theory, it's not close in reality. Only problems are the compaction making most toys impossible to wear and the difficulty in growing much past SL.

I didn't figure you were bothered, lol, but i know some of the fineys are, and I don't think they should be.

eadwine
April 19th, 2014, 03:27 AM
Another Quattro titanium bender! Yay! :)

Sorry just was overjoyed to see someone else whose hair did this hahaha.

Anabell
April 19th, 2014, 04:30 AM
I have the opposite issue. When I do buns they are big, but when my hair is down it gets "gaps". If I distribute it from shoulder to shoulder- you can see my t-shirt throw the hair in several places. This "problem" can be solved by brush it out, but I can't get how it still make big buns when it's not.

This thread is very interesting. I also suspect that fine hair is more slippery than other types. So you get the combination of dense slippery hair...maybe some overnight braiding can solve that issue and give the hair toys more grip. If it is a problem to do one braid you can do 3-4 of them. More braids means you will able to do this on shorter hair.

eadwine
April 19th, 2014, 04:31 AM
Also.. when you do three small braids, you can braid those into a bigger braid. Might stay put better that way :)

chen bao jun
April 19th, 2014, 08:39 AM
I have the opposite issue. When I do buns they are big, but when my hair is down it gets "gaps". If I distribute it from shoulder to shoulder- you can see my t-shirt throw the hair in several places. This "problem" can be solved by brush it out, but I can't get how it still make big buns when it's not.

This thread is very interesting. I also suspect that fine hair is more slippery than other types. So you get the combination of dense slippery hair...maybe some overnight braiding can solve that issue and give the hair toys more grip. If it is a problem to do one braid you can do 3-4 of them. More braids means you will able to do this on shorter hair.

No, East Asians famously have incredibly coarse hair which is the really really slippery. Also, most African hair types are incredibly fine. (I'm an exception, we exist but coarse haired tightly curlies are so unusual that hairdressers have no idea what to do with us). And African finies are definitely not slippery, though they are in the worst position possible for someone who wants to grow long hair--supercurly plus fine equals incredible fragility and breakage beyond belief. My mom has this hairtype and it is very beautiful and soft feeling but combing breaks it off, brushing breaks it off, washing breaks it off unless you wash it in braids, sleeping on a regular pillowcase breaks it off, clothes break it off--all you can really do with it is leave it in protective braids 100% of the time. But if the braids are too tight, THEY break off the edges. It's definitely a challenge to care for.
It IS a very interesting subject.
I would appreciate knowing what hair toys work to keep your hair up, Anabell and others. So far I have found nothing for my very fine haired slippery friend with the thin and beautiful hair. (they pick her to play angels in church plays because her very fine blonde hair makes something like a natural halo, gorgeous). The smallest ficcare slid right off and even ketylo hairsticks only stay for a short while, she's frustrated.

eadwine
April 19th, 2014, 08:47 AM
Try a paranda on her, it is making my floop hair behave *giggles*

Also, crinkled Amish pins work very well for me. I need about 6 in a bun, 4 MIGHT work but it'll slide after a bit.

It can be annoying to have the very slippery hair alright.. ugh.

MsBubbles
April 19th, 2014, 09:42 AM
I also suspect that fine hair is more slippery than other types. So you get the combination of dense slippery hair...maybe some overnight braiding can solve that issue and give the hair toys more grip.

I can certainly vouch for having way slippery hair. I can't do updos if my hair is dry. And due to the whole fine, flat, straight, Northern European hair thing, I have to do at least a scalp wash every day if I want to look respectable at work (I'm a natural scalp-greaseball and stretching washes didn't work), so overnight braiding to pouf it out won't work for me because I would have to wash it anyway before work.

So, damp bunning it is! (not that anybody asked me. Just my :twocents:)

MsBubbles
April 19th, 2014, 09:46 AM
I would appreciate knowing what hair toys work to keep your hair up, Anabell and others. So far I have found nothing for my very fine haired slippery friend with the thin and beautiful hair.

I mentioned the thin metal Quattros earlier in the thread. But she'd have to have hair long enough to make a bun and then it'd have to be inserted properly so it's well anchored. It might need to be on dampened hair.

chen bao jun
April 19th, 2014, 11:13 AM
Thanks for the suggestions.
Her hair is definitely long enough to bun. It is below brastrap and buns easily (benefit of being thin)--except the bun falls down. I will tell her about amish pins and parandas and quattros (but she does not have quattro finances, to be truthful).

eadwine
April 19th, 2014, 11:23 AM
Quattro sticks are stainless steels now, am I right? Not that they have gotten much cheaper though, so fund wise I can see what you mean. :/

GoldenSilk
April 19th, 2014, 03:57 PM
@Chen: My hair is thicker, but it's fine and slippery... Tell her to try spin pins. I think they could hold my hair at a shorter length than anything else. I wish I had found them earlier! I just have to be careful inserting them, because if I go too fast, they can catch and snap hairs in twisted buns.

And yes, this thread rings true for me. I can use thicker sticks with center-held buns like the Nautilus, because then it's really my hair locking itself in, and I'll be pretty comfortable. I can't "weave" most toys, though, or I'll break hair, toy, or both. Most cheapie drugstore toys break on me. :( Or they were way too small, even when I was at BSL. Though, I really like my new Vidal Sassoon Avian fakkare.

All my life, hairdressers told me the "you have fine hair, but a lot of it!" comment, so I was a little miffed when I did my LHC hairtype and ended up in the ii range. :lol: But I'm over it now. Ponytail circumference is just another number! Besides, if I had iii+ thickness, with my fineness, tangles, and tender scalp... Well, I don't know how I'd manage it. Kudos to those of you that can!

Man, I do wish I could afford Quattros, though.

lapushka
April 19th, 2014, 04:07 PM
All my life, hairdressers told me the "you have fine hair, but a lot of it!" comment, so I was a little miffed when I did my LHC hairtype and ended up in the ii range. :lol: But I'm over it now. Ponytail circumference is just another number! Besides, if I had iii+ thickness, with my fineness, tangles, and tender scalp... Well, I don't know how I'd manage it. Kudos to those of you that can!

Why should you be disappointed when you "only" got into the ii range? I mean, what's this odd sort of "race" of needing to be iii. It's not all that pleasant to have that kind of thickness, you know. Every hairtype comes with it's own set of issues. I'm honest about my thickness, do not boast or think it's "awesome" to be iii. It's just what it is. That's why I don't get this odd striving for iii!!! It's ridiculous, IMMHO.

kganihanova
April 19th, 2014, 07:55 PM
Why should you be disappointed when you "only" got into the ii range? I mean, what's this odd sort of "race" of needing to be iii. It's not all that pleasant to have that kind of thickness, you know. Every hairtype comes with it's own set of issues. I'm honest about my thickness, do not boast or think it's "awesome" to be iii. It's just what it is. That's why I don't get this odd striving for iii!!! It's ridiculous, IMMHO.

iii is nice sometimes. However, it is not nice when the only g****n hair style you can do until MBL/waist is a peacock twist, braid or cinnabun (and those puppies hurt).

Beborani
April 19th, 2014, 08:15 PM
----If hairdressers complain about your hair, it is thick. I know plenty of people with thin but high density hair and they always talk about how the minute they sit in the chair, the hairdresser will say, you have fine hair, but there's so MUCH of it. they should know (they usually are not happy, but that is another story).
------
Chen, this is not entirely true for me. When i had thin hair on top which is most of my adult life, hairstylist almost always overestimated my thickness and would suggest styles not compatible with my density, no matter how much I argued with them until they started sectioning my hair when they would gasp and I would sigh...I told you so. I had perfected the art of hiding my thinness and my hairtype helped but hairdressers werent always all that perceptive. At least one botched up my cut as she had planned on lots more layers than my hair would support. Now i have more hair on top but it is brand new growth and this presents even more challenge as I cannot explain this at all without them thinking I am delusional unless i keep going back to the same stylist for a year or so. Similarly stylists understimate my daughter's density because it is fine. I think it is partly because they have preconceived ideas about indian hair and both of us didnt fit for different reasons.

maborosi
April 19th, 2014, 08:39 PM
My hair's technically ii but I have a LOT of hair. It takes forever to do a henna root touch-up because I have to section it off so many times. I think it condenses, too.
I also suffer from the straight-and-slippery hair conundrum. I've found that bunning or braiding while damp can help, or just having windblown or dirty hair. IF my hair's freshly washed, it will slip out of everything except for spin pins + bobby pins in a braided bun- and even then, I have issues with the bobby pins sliding out.

~maborosi~