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Wisé
March 19th, 2014, 08:13 AM
Since starting detangling dry before and then again with conditioner in the shower I noticed that I really use an enormous amount of hair when washing. First I attributed it to the water swelling the follicles or something on the lines, so nothing much to do about it. But since I started doing regular scalp massages I noticed that I shed a lot from it. Maybe it's because I am doing something wrong (I don't use my fingernails, but maybe too much pressure and/or the wrong technique?), maybe my scalp just doesn't like it.

If I don't find a way to stop the shedding, I will give up on scalp massages for good, but I can hardly not wash my hair. Maybe that is were I go wrong. I always have great difficulties getting my sulfate free baby shampoo (I have yet to find another sulfate free one in my vicinity) distributed even with my pretty thin hair. My hair is always somewhat sticky when wet (always has been, even in my sulfate times, I guess it has to do with low porosity) and I just can't get the shampoo under the hair onto my scalp, since it doesn't lather much. It takes nearly a palm full of shampoo to reach each spot. My hair is also very tangly every time after the shampoo.
I started washing my hair in 3 sections and I watered down my shampoo, and it helped a little, but not much.

Any ideas how to distribute the shampoo better and with less breakage, any experiences with the same thing and found solutions?
Thanks a lot in advance.

lapushka
March 19th, 2014, 08:24 AM
I'd say it's the scalp massages, not so much washing your hair (although you do lose a bunch of hair from that - at least I do). I'd say you are doing well distributing the shampoo!

Anje
March 19th, 2014, 08:45 AM
Try diluting your shampoo (say, 1 part shampoo in 4 parts water) and dribble that over your whole scalp. It sinks in a lot better than a thick gel does. Even though you end up using more liquid volume, most people find that they reduce their shampoo use overall this way, which is a nice bonus.

ETA: For what it's worth, I shed like a mad beast if I try to detangle in the shower, too, no matter how gentle I am.

Theobroma
March 19th, 2014, 08:58 AM
Are you doing your scalp massages while washing? If so, you might want to reconsider that. I've discovered that my scalp really doesn't like wet manipulation at all and I'm shedding much less in the wash now that I've stopped making extra effort to work my lather into my scalp.

(I use soap, and I work up a huge lather by rubbing the bar in my hands and along my hair, and then just sort of smoosh the lather down towards my scalp and let it sit there for a bit. To remove skin flakes etc. I dry-scritch with a comb before washing my hair.)

Also, are you getting conditioner on your scalp at all? That makes me shed insanely.

UP Lisa
March 19th, 2014, 09:05 AM
You could put diluted shampoo into a bottle with a nozzle on it, and distribute it that way, but shedding is going to happen. It happens to all of us.

Saldana
March 19th, 2014, 09:20 AM
I also have a hard time getting shampoo to my scalp in the shower. What has worked well for me is to get a long-necked squirt bottle (like the kind you apply hair dye with), and fill it with shampoo diluted 1:1 with water. I get my hair wet, then use the applicator to get the shampoo onto my scalp. THEN I work my fingertips through my wet hair to my scalp, and lather the shampoo that way. Then rinse rinse rinse rinse rinse...you get the idea. :)

HTH!

edit: Oh! And I second Theobroma's comment - I try pretty hard to keep conditioner away from my scalp, because for me, it causes lots and lots of shedding. Like, shower-mouse shedding.

Madora
March 19th, 2014, 09:48 AM
Have you tried thoroughly wetting your hair first, then applying your diluted shampoo? Perhaps how you are using your fingers during the shampooing process is the culprit as far as hair shedding is concerned. Since hair is weakest when wet, I'd limit the massaging to when your hair is completely dry.

To help combat tangles after shampooing, try diluted conditioner, then gently detangle your hair (working from the bottom of the strands up to the scalp, while your hair is full of the conditioner).

Personally, I just put a tablespoon of my GM Pink Crème shampoo in a plastic 10 oz cup and fill it up with war water, stir well, then pour it over my scalp and down my length.

Hope you find a solution to your problem!

spidermom
March 19th, 2014, 09:57 AM
I also have a hard time getting shampoo to my scalp in the shower. What has worked well for me is to get a long-necked squirt bottle (like the kind you apply hair dye with), and fill it with shampoo diluted 1:1 with water. I get my hair wet, then use the applicator to get the shampoo onto my scalp. THEN I work my fingertips through my wet hair to my scalp, and lather the shampoo that way. Then rinse rinse rinse rinse rinse...you get the idea. :)


Bingo! Except my dilution is more like 10:1. I also only run my fingers one way over/through my hair and scalp while washing, kind of like finger combing.

Sarahlabyrinth
March 19th, 2014, 01:19 PM
You could put diluted shampoo into a bottle with a nozzle on it, and distribute it that way, but shedding is going to happen. It happens to all of us.

This is what I do and the thinner mix of diluted shampoo goes right to my scalp where it's needed. I also make sure my hair is soaking wet before I apply the shampoo. I then gently stroke and massage very lightly to clean my scalp and roots. The resulting lather then just runs down the length of my hair cleaning that as it goes. I do shed some hairs in the shower but that is normal, they are hairs which are ready to come out anyway.

VJG
March 19th, 2014, 01:41 PM
Have you tried CWC? If you condition the length first to detangle then the shampoo from the scalp will spread more easily.

jeanniet
March 19th, 2014, 01:50 PM
Is there some reason why you're detangling dry first? I lose a lot more hair that way, and it could be that some of what you're seeing in the shower is from that (loosened hairs that hadn't been combed out). For the shampoo, I agree with using a bottle and diluting to distribute. You can get clean hair and use very little shampoo that way.

Nadine <3
March 19th, 2014, 02:14 PM
I put 2 table spoons of my shampoo in my 8 ounce spray bottle, then I fill the rest with water. In the shower I spread a cheep conditioner on my length and spray my shampoo rght into the dirtiest spots. It takes very little manipulation this way and I use almost no shampoo.

Madora
March 19th, 2014, 03:54 PM
Is there some reason why you're detangling dry first? I lose a lot more hair that way, and it could be that some of what you're seeing in the shower is from that (loosened hairs that hadn't been combed out). For the shampoo, I agree with using a bottle and diluting to distribute. You can get clean hair and use very little shampoo that way.

I don't know why the original poster detangles dry first, but I do the same thing and it is because I want hair as tangle free BEFORE I begin the shampooing process. No use going into it with tangles in your hair. I also section my hair when shampooing and that helps cut down on the tangles.

Wisé
March 19th, 2014, 05:28 PM
First, thank you all a lot for giving so many answers so fast.
I'll try to respond to the main points of what all of you said.


Are you doing your scalp massages while washing? If so, you might want to reconsider that. I've discovered that my scalp really doesn't like wet manipulation at all and I'm shedding much less in the wash now that I've stopped making extra effort to work my lather into my scalp.)

The scalp massages are done on dry hair, I could not get through my wet hair like that without using a lot of force (and getting very frustrated in the process). But because I have such a hard time distributing the shampoo I have to use pretty much the same movements to get it under the hair, only for less time and on smaller areas of the scalp.


Also, are you getting conditioner on your scalp at all? That makes me shed insanely.

I did that once as I tried co-washing and I will never ever try that again because of the shedding you mentioned. I distribute my conditioner mostly from neck down, and a bit higher only on the sides of my head because those strands tangle more. But it never touches my scalp.


Have you tried thoroughly wetting your hair first, then applying your diluted shampoo? Perhaps how you are using your fingers during the shampooing process is the culprit as far as hair shedding is concerned.

If I don't wet my hair thoroughly first, there is now way I am getting even close to my scalp, so yeah, I do that. I suspect how I am using my fingers is the culprit, too. But what do I do wrong and what would be better?


To help combat tangles after shampooing, try diluted conditioner, then gently detangle your hair (working from the bottom of the strands up to the scalp, while your hair is full of the conditioner).

That is pretty much what I already do. I am very careful while detangling. I don't think that is where I shed, only where I notice it, since it happens on dry scalp massages and detangling afterwards, too.


Have you tried CWC? If you condition the length first to detangle then the shampoo from the scalp will spread more easily.

I apply conditioner first most of the time. It helps with the tangles, but it has no effect on the spreading of the shampoo on the scalp or the shedding.


Is there some reason why you're detangling dry first? I lose a lot more hair that way, and it could be that some of what you're seeing in the shower is from that (loosened hairs that hadn't been combed out).

Most of the time I don't detangle my hair between washes, so it is very tangly by the time I decide to shower again (My hair is fine and curly, I have yet to meet another person in real life whose hair is this easily tangled - but curls are rather rare here). I tried once to detangle completely in the shower soaked in conditioner and more than half an hour of freezing (being wet), detangling a strand of max 1/2 cm and only a few millimeters length of it at once, endless frustration, a whole mouse of shed hair (which is A LOT of hair when your hair is fine) and the beginning of a cold later I swore to never try that again.
I never thought that it could add to the shedding in the shower though. But I really fingercomb very gently and I don't know what else I can do. I would love to try something else, but I have yet to come up with an other way.


Hmm.. I think I'll definitely give the diluting of the shampoo another try. It is already diluted, but only 1:1. Any other suggestions? Anything on how to move the fingers to distribute without disturbing the scalp too much?

jeanniet
March 19th, 2014, 05:44 PM
I don't know why the original poster detangles dry first, but I do the same thing and it is because I want hair as tangle free BEFORE I begin the shampooing process. No use going into it with tangles in your hair. I also section my hair when shampooing and that helps cut down on the tangles.

It's pretty common for curlies not to detangle dry, which is why I asked. I only detangle in the shower, so every 3 days or so, and have far, far fewer tangles than I ever did when I detangled dry twice a day. It finally occurred to me that detangling more often was actually creating more tangles. When you comb a dry curl, you're breaking up that curl instead of keeping it together as it should be. Broken curls try to reclump themselves, which causes tangles. Like the OP, I'm a 3a/F, so I'm not sure why she has the problems she does with detangling in the shower--maybe density? It takes me maybe 10 seconds to detangle. My hair's pretty short now, but even when it was quite a bit longer it didn't take very long.

EdG
March 19th, 2014, 09:03 PM
Get a large (6 cups) plastic food container, put a small amount of shampoo in it, fill it with water while stirring, and then apply in the shower. The dilution ratio should be 1 part shampoo to 10-50 parts water. This makes enough for three apply/rinse cycles.

Using this method, I have never had to massage my hair to get it clean. There is enough water involved to do that.

I suspect that you are shedding in the shower because you don't untangle otherwise. I don't know about curly hair, but I shed almost nothing in the shower because the loose strands come out when I untangle my hair afterwards (when it's nearly dry).
Ed

excentricat
March 19th, 2014, 09:13 PM
How often do you wash? If you aren't de-tangling between washes, you may not be losing as much hair as you think. Remember that the average is around 100 hairs a day. If they are staying in your hair until wash day, and that is several days apart, that can be a lot of hair and still be normal.

I concur with the thought of a high water dilution of shampoo in a nozzled bottle. I use a bottle meant for condiments at a picnic that I got for like, $1. I can squirt it right down to the scalp and then a lot less manipulation is required to get it sudsy and clean. Also remember that sulfate free shampoos often suds less than their sulfate-laden counterparts, so that is not an indication of how well it cleans.

Wisé
March 20th, 2014, 07:32 AM
When you comb a dry curl, you're breaking up that curl instead of keeping it together as it should be. Broken curls try to reclump themselves, which causes tangles. Like the OP, I'm a 3a/F, so I'm not sure why she has the problems she does with detangling in the shower--maybe density? It takes me maybe 10 seconds to detangle. My hair's pretty short now, but even when it was quite a bit longer it didn't take very long.

Maybe it is because I have a weak curl pattern that won't form curls after beeing disrupted the slightest bit, like when in a braid or a bun. When it is time for washing, normally there aren't all that much curls left to disrupt. I used to only detangle before the shower and leave it at that until the next shower, but since around waist length I find that impossible. If I do that I get one mat of hair, instead of curly strands. I could detangle in the shower too, back then, but somehow the length changed that.
In short: I don't really know why, but I tried everything, still detangling twice is the only thing I get to work.


Get a large (6 cups) plastic food container, put a small amount of shampoo in it, fill it with water while stirring, and then apply in the shower. The dilution ratio should be 1 part shampoo to 10-50 parts water. This makes enough for three apply/rinse cycles.

That idea is great, I'll certainly try that out.


How often do you wash? If you aren't de-tangling between washes, you may not be losing as much hair as you think.

As I stated in my first post, I detangle just before I enter the shower. So the time my shed hair had to accumulate before I detangle again in the shower is half an hour at the most.



Also remember that sulfate free shampoos often suds less than their sulfate-laden counterparts, so that is not an indication of how well it cleans.

I know, my shampoo hardly lathers at all. But if I distribute shampoo on my hands and put them to my hair and the shampoo is gone from my hands in an instant, and I can't get my hands further in because the strands stick together so tightly, then I am certain that there can be no shampoo on the parts I couldn't reach. So I have to take a new load of shampoo to get to those places. I know I end up with way to much shampoo in my hair that way. But if I don't distribute it on the scalp, then I can just hop into the shower again because of those places looking greasy. I would use another shampoo, if I could. But this is the only sulfate free shampoo I can get here.

That's why I'm going to try Ed's suggestion. Maybe that way the shampoo reaches the scalp without so much struggle.

itsnikki
March 20th, 2014, 07:56 AM
I don't know why the original poster detangles dry first, but I do the same thing and it is because I want hair as tangle free BEFORE I begin the shampooing process. No use going into it with tangles in your hair. I also section my hair when shampooing and that helps cut down on the tangles.
That's how I've always done it! I can only gently detangle with fingers with my kid though.. Doesn't really get it all untangled though. I think it depends on the texture of your hair. Mine is slippy enough to detangle just fine dry..

Wisé
March 22nd, 2014, 06:38 AM
Ed, you are my hero ;-)

Rinsing with so much water really helped a lot. It took me only half a minute to detangle afterwards and my shedding decreased to a normal amount:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/album.php?albumid=11668&attachmentid=9896

On other washes I lost so much hair, that it covered a span of 1 cm of the comb. BTW I am not using this comb for detangling, I just stick my shed hair on it to get it of my fingers without clogging the drain.

I might even consider skipping the wet detangling completely!


Edit: Does the picture show up? It is my first time posting a pic. If not, the picture is tho only one in my album.

Panth
March 22nd, 2014, 07:11 AM
If you don't detangle when dry, you're going to get a lot more "shedding" when washing because you haven't been removing (when detangling dry) the shed hairs that are caught up in your length. Also, most people get greater "shed" with washing than with dry detangling (possibly because the flow of the water and/or slip-enhancing agents like conditioner assist the already-shed hairs to leave your length).

Scalp massages are often associated with increased shedding. Some people are ok with that. Some people not.

You've got a lot of suggestions for helping distribute your shampoo. I agree - diluting it will help a lot. A squeezy bottle will also help too. Personally, I wouldn't dilute more than one wash's worth at a go, as (especially if you don't wash daily) you are going to risk growing bacteria and mould in your diluted shampoo.

If diluting it seems like a faff, you could always do as I do with thick, sticky, gel-like sulphate-free shampoo. Get a small bit and rub it between your palms until they are coated, then fingercomb through your scalp hair (similar hand positions to scalp massaging, but you aren't actually putting pressure on your scalp, just getting your fingers woven in under your length and through your hair). Repeat a few times, then get a quick blast of water on your head from the shower to help dilute it. Then, fingercomb until everything seems well-coated and clean.

EdG
March 22nd, 2014, 08:55 AM
Ed, you are my hero ;-)

Rinsing with so much water really helped a lot. It took me only half a minute to detangle afterwards and my shedding decreased to a normal amount:I'm glad that helped! :)

I'm also thinking that I may need to work on my superhero skills. :lol:
Ed

Rinna
March 22nd, 2014, 10:40 AM
In my experience, some sulfate free shampoos are extremely drying, also some regular shampoos that advertise their moisturizing properties (like dove) can be extremely drying.

If as soon as you work up a lather your hair becomes a tangled dry mess, it's not you, it's the poo. For me at least, that's how it is.

My favorites are Carol's Daughter shampoos, I tried the rosemary and the monoi shampoos and they are truly gentle.

SereneCurls
March 22nd, 2014, 11:52 AM
I'm glad the shampoo dilution seems to be working out for you. :) I thought I'd speak a bit to the finger movements issue you brought up. Because my hair's pretty dense at the roots, and likes to stick together when it's wet, I section it while washing. With shampoo in the palm of one hand, I can lift sections of scalp hair gently and smooth shampoo onto my scalp. I do this all over, then bend forward slightly and slide my fingers under at the hair line. This lifts the hair away from my head slightly, and I can gently clean my scalp with my fingers without manipulating all the thick hair on top. I hope this made some sense, I've never really tried to describe it before. Lol