Hello and Help: My TBL 3a/f/ii Hair Has Gone Either Limp Or Stringy :-(

[Syren_Curls]

Hi to all of the fellow long hairs!


I am newer to membership and this is my first post... but I have lurked around the forums over the last few years while I was doing what I call the online aspect of playing with my hair ;-) I didn't join as a member until recently because I knew it would be a very happy distractraction from grad school and I wanted to make sure I graduated ;-)


I have loved the threads, not only because of the wealth of information but also the love, support, encouragement, and just all out warmth that was embedded in each of the posts. What an amazing community :-)


I have been a long hair most of my life but I reeeeaallllly began to embrace it a few years ago and grow my hair to TBL. I've had every length from pixie to TBL, with a few variations throughout. Sometimes I've had bangs or layers and I've had the blunt cut ends as well. When Hurricane Sandy hit last year, I was at TBL and in a state of what I have decided must have been storm related insanity, I cut bangs and long layers into my one length gorgeous hair. I'm at TBL again, but now have fairy tale ends because of the long layers and bangs the lenght of my earlobes.


Beyond that, here is a bit about my hair and the help I'm looking for...


In 2011, I began using sulphate free shampoo and cone free conditioner. I have had 3a/b hair for most of my life and love my curls. The hard water and humidity where I lived for school didn't treat my curls kindly, which led me to the switch-which was a happy accident! I discovered Nature's Gate chamomile shampoo and conditioner, which my hair and curls loved! I used that until a few months ago. Sadly, I've come to discover that I am a Celiac, which means anything with gluten, aka a protein found in wheat, rye, and barley, can make me very sick. I found out that my beloved Nature's Gate has hydrolyzed wheat protein and have been searching for a new routine. Given the amount of caring and regard for how important a good long hair routine is I've seen in the other threads, I knew I would find some support and advice amongst the LHC forums!


I have tried BS and ACV. Perhaps I am not doing it right, but it doesn't seem to work out well for me. I put about 1 part BS and 3 parts water in a water bottle and pour on my head then use my fingers (not my nails!) to scrub gently and massage my scalp and rinse with a similar ratio of ACV/h2o. My hair seems to like the ACV but the BS either doesn't clean my hair or leaves it frizzy and poofy. I have also tried castile soap and it looks great for the first two hours or so but then, within several hours of washing, my hair becomes uber limp and looks like I have oiled it. I have also tried it without conditioner or oils and gotten the same thing. I've also tried Burt's Bees shampoos/conditioners or just shampoo, which leave my hair nearly straight (NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!). I've also tried a few different Aubrey shampoo/conditioners and had the same looks great right after but then either becomes greasy/limp/stringy or practically straight (NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!). Several years ago, I've also tried CO but that was before I knew there were some cones that were okay and I'm a bit too overwhelmed with that info to feel like I can pick out a good one to try it now before I consult you guys.


A bit more about my routine, now that I've covered cleansing. I don't brush when dry, only detangle before I wash it. I wash maximum (on an extreme week) of three times per week, though generally only two. I LOOOOOOOVE oiling my hair and used to do it with coconut oil as often as I could. I've cut that back to just before I wash every 2 or 3 washes and I use the oil sparingly now. I've also started using argan oil recently in tiny amounts on my hair when it looks frizzy. Given the weird thing going on with my hair now, that's been almost daily. I just purchased white camelia oil (because I love the smell!) and am planning to include that in the rotation. I also began henna-ing my hair every few months when Hurricane Sandy hit and just tried to 'hendigo' it last month. I have found out that, after multiple uses, henna can relax curly hair. I've also heard that amla can help bring the curls back and had it in my 'hendigo' mix. I think I need to redo that both for the color and for the curl factor. I don't blowfry or use other heat styling, haven't in several years. I use a microfiber towel to plop my hair when it's wet and generally don't have products in it other than maybe mousse or aloe vera gel. I haven't used those in about a month or so either. I also try to wear it up quite a bit and definitely use no metal elastic. I did order my first pair of hair sticks a few days ago, that I am very excited about and am resolving to wear my hair up as close to every day as possible ASAP. Oh, I also just picked up a satin 'pocket bonnet' for when I sleep at night. Prior to that, I have been putting my hair up, either in a ponytail or a pineapple. I'm planning a trim soon, just to get rid of some damage on the ends and also help even out the layering. I do maybe 2 or 3 trims a year and I'm working up the nerve to begin self-trimming and search and destroy missions ;-)


Thanks for reading all of that background... here's what I need help with... I miss my curls! I really love having them and I identify with being a curly girl so much. I also need help figuring out why my hair is getting all limp, stringy, greasy, and so quickly. And if anyone has ideas on a gluten free shampoo/conditioner routine that isn't laden with tons of chemicals or damaging agents, I would really appreciate that so much. I've gone from bouncy, hydrated, glorious 3a curls to this and I have no idea where to intervene. I took a few pictures earlier tonight just to include with this thread (my first ones of the back of my head, lol) but I am having a hard time attaching them. I'll try that again tomorrow because a visual might help guide some more informed responses. My apologies for not being able to include that now.


And also for the looooong, eye sore of a post-I'm just a bit devastated and freaked out. But thank you for reading it all and in advance for any thoughts you might have!!!!!

[LauraLongLocks]

Whoa! Can you break that up into paragraphs and take out the HTML coding? I'm finding it hard to read.

[Syren_Curls]

I'm working on it :-( Newbie here and trying to fix that eyesore, lol. Sorry about that...

Apparently, I can't edit my posts :-( Here's how the above *should* read:

Hi to all of the fellow long hairs!


I am newer to membership and this is my first post... but I have lurked around the forums over the last few years while I was doing what I call the online aspect of playing with my hair ;-) I didn't join as a member until recently because I knew it would be a very happy distractraction from grad school and I wanted to make sure I graduated ;-)


I have loved the threads, not only because of the wealth of information but also the love, support, encouragement, and just all out warmth that was embedded in each of the posts. What an amazing community :-)


I have been a long hair most of my life but I reeeeaallllly began to embrace it a few years ago and grow my hair to TBL. I've had every length from pixie to TBL, with a few variations throughout. Sometimes I've had bangs or layers and I've had the blunt cut ends as well. When Hurricane Sandy hit last year, I was at TBL and in a state of what I have decided must have been storm related insanity, I cut bangs and long layers into my one length gorgeous hair. I'm at TBL again, but now have fairy tale ends because of the long layers and bangs the lenght of my earlobes.


Beyond that, here is a bit about my hair and the help I'm looking for...


In 2011, I began using sulphate free shampoo and cone free conditioner. I have had 3a/b hair for most of my life and love my curls. The hard water and humidity where I lived for school didn't treat my curls kindly, which led me to the switch-which was a happy accident! I discovered Nature's Gate chamomile shampoo and conditioner, which my hair and curls loved! I used that until a few months ago. Sadly, I've come to discover that I am a Celiac, which means anything with gluten, aka a protein found in wheat, rye, and barley, can make me very sick. I found out that my beloved Nature's Gate has hydrolyzed wheat protein and have been searching for a new routine. Given the amount of caring and regard for how important a good long hair routine is I've seen in the other threads, I knew I would find some support and advice amongst the LHC forums!


I have tried BS and ACV. Perhaps I am not doing it right, but it doesn't seem to work out well for me. I put about 1 part BS and 3 parts water in a water bottle and pour on my head then use my fingers (not my nails!) to scrub gently and massage my scalp and rinse with a similar ratio of ACV/h2o. My hair seems to like the ACV but the BS either doesn't clean my hair or leaves it frizzy and poofy. I have also tried castile soap and it looks great for the first two hours or so but then, within several hours of washing, my hair becomes uber limp and looks like I have oiled it. I have also tried it without conditioner or oils and gotten the same thing. I've also tried Burt's Bees shampoos/conditioners or just shampoo, which leave my hair nearly straight (NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!). I've also tried a few different Aubrey shampoo/conditioners and had the same looks great right after but then either becomes greasy/limp/stringy or practically straight (NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!). Several years ago, I've also tried CO but that was before I knew there were some cones that were okay and I'm a bit too overwhelmed with that info to feel like I can pick out a good one to try it now before I consult you guys.


A bit more about my routine, now that I've covered cleansing. I don't brush when dry, only detangle before I wash it. I wash maximum (on an extreme week) of three times per week, though generally only two. I LOOOOOOOVE oiling my hair and used to do it with coconut oil as often as I could. I've cut that back to just before I wash every 2 or 3 washes and I use the oil sparingly now. I've also started using argan oil recently in tiny amounts on my hair when it looks frizzy. Given the weird thing going on with my hair now, that's been almost daily. I just purchased white camelia oil (because I love the smell!) and am planning to include that in the rotation. I also began henna-ing my hair every few months when Hurricane Sandy hit and just tried to 'hendigo' it last month. I have found out that, after multiple uses, henna can relax curly hair. I've also heard that amla can help bring the curls back and had it in my 'hendigo' mix. I think I need to redo that both for the color and for the curl factor. I don't blowfry or use other heat styling, haven't in several years. I use a microfiber towel to plop my hair when it's wet and generally don't have products in it other than maybe mousse or aloe vera gel. I haven't used those in about a month or so either. I also try to wear it up quite a bit and definitely use no metal elastic. I did order my first pair of hair sticks a few days ago, that I am very excited about and am resolving to wear my hair up as close to every day as possible ASAP. Oh, I also just picked up a satin 'pocket bonnet' for when I sleep at night. Prior to that, I have been putting my hair up, either in a ponytail or a pineapple. I'm planning a trim soon, just to get rid of some damage on the ends and also help even out the layering. I do maybe 2 or 3 trims a year and I'm working up the nerve to begin self-trimming and search and destroy missions ;-)


Thanks for reading all of that background... here's what I need help with... I miss my curls! I really love having them and I identify with being a curly girl so much. I also need help figuring out why my hair is getting all limp, stringy, greasy, and so quickly. And if anyone has ideas on a gluten free shampoo/conditioner routine that isn't laden with tons of chemicals or damaging agents, I would really appreciate that so much. I've gone from bouncy, hydrated, glorious 3a curls to this and I have no idea where to intervene. I took a few pictures earlier tonight just to include with this thread (my first ones of the back of my head, lol) but I am having a hard time attaching them. I'll try that again tomorrow because a visual might help guide some more informed responses. My apologies for not being able to include that now.


And also for the looooong, eye sore of a post-I'm just a bit devastated and freaked out. But thank you for reading it all and in advance for any thoughts you might have!!!!!

[queenieheather]

The post with the paragraphs was muuuuch easier to read! My hair is similar to yours, but usually 3a. And I'm gluten free too! I recently changed my stats on here to 2c/3a because in the winter my hair is much less curly but come spring, it gets curlier. Where do you live? Is it currently really dry out? That could be straightening your curls. I usually CO wash with shea moisture's deep treatment masques but I have the shampoo too. It's really moisturizing for shampoo. I could totally get away with not using condish if I use that. But I usually skip it and just use the masque so I can detangle. I dilute them with a little hot tea. I also have Trader Joe's tea tree tingle for CO washing which works pretty well too. Both products have a minimal of chemicals and are GF! I went through many ways of washing and this has been the best for me. Also, I could easily brush my hair into soft waves if I just use a leave in condish and then damp bun. I do that when I'm feeling like I want "almost straight" hair. I doubt it would work in the summer. To wear my hair curly I use some gel. I make my own so I can avoid chemicals. It's easy: 1/2-1 tsp plain gelatin with about a cup of hot/boiling water. Then I let it cool and put it in a spray bottle. After you put on your leave in conditioner, spray that on, scrunch then let it air dry. It's not sticky but has a nice hold. YOu could also just try using store bought gel but I like that homemade one because it has so few ingredients.

[Syren_Curls]

:oops:

I feel really badly about the first message and I can't seem to fix it up. Smh. I don't even know why it came out the way it did, I typed it with paragraphs, lol. I'm sorry about that, but thanks for responding in spite of it, queenieheather!

I live in Brooklyn, NY and it's definitely been dry out. That's a really good point! I'm so excited to try the gel recipe you mentioned :-) And I can't wait to get the shea moisture and Trader Joe's products--minimal chemicals and GF is exactly what I've been looking for!

My hair does the same thing as yours where it's curlier after spring and goes into soft waves modes if I use a leave in condish and bun it up ;-)

Thanks so much again, I'm really excited at your finds! I'll definitely update when I've picked some up (this weeeeek, if not tomorrow!) :cheer:

[LanaBanana]

Hello and welcome! Sorry that your hair isn't behaving. Have you tried clarifying recently? Even if you aren't using cones, I have heard that other ingredients can cause buildup over time too. I clarify with Neutrogena Anti Residue shampoo once every few months and I find that my hair is much curlier afterward!

I also would like to second the suggestion for Shea Moisture products. I use the curl styling milk and the curl smoothie and I love the way they make my hair feel, look, and smell! They have great ingredients, and if you are a fan of coconut oil these should be right up your alley :-)

[LauraLongLocks]

I don't have your hair type, so I'm at a loss as to how to help you. But thank you for redoing the post so it is easier to read. And about attaching pictures, you can as a newbie, if you upload your picture to photobucket or a similar photo hosting site. Copy the IMG link from photobucket and paste it into the body of your message. Good luck! I'm sure there are plenty of people here who are more knowledgeable about your hair type than I am (being a 1c).

[Hootenanny]

Hello and welcome! :) I have a few thoughts that I hope might be helpful.

First, I would definitely stop using baking soda for cleansing. It is quite harsh and drying, especially for curly hair, which tends to like more moisture/gentler handling.

Second, I would recommend giving CO-washing another shot, this time with cone-free conditioner. Before doing so, do a final clarifying wash with a shampoo like Neutrogena's Anti-Residue shampoo (like LanaBanana recommended), and then follow with LOTS of conditioner. For CO-washing, cheap, cone-free conditioners work well, such as Suave or V05. Trader Joe's makes some good, inexpensive ones as well, as queenieheather mentioned.

Regarding other kinds of conditioners to try, it sounds like your hair was really enjoying the protein in the Nature's Gate; for some curlies (myself included) protein can really boost curl. I understand that you can't use wheat protein, but there are other proteins you could try, such as soy, silk, or collagen. I wouldn't recommend using a protein-heavy conditioner as a CO-wash, but rather as a rinse-out followup to your CO-wash.

And finally, flaxseed gel is an easy, cheap, and chemical-free styling aid that many curlies find can boost their curl significantly. I don't know why, but curls seem to love flax! Here's a recipe for the gel: http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2011/07/what-cookin-this-week-for-hair.html . You don't have to use any of the add-ins, btw. Just flax seeds and water are needed, but if you feel like experimenting, there are suggestions for what else to add.

Good luck and let us know if the suggestions work! :)

[jeanniet]

Definitely don't use BS/ACV. It's pretty harsh, and in the concentrations you were using, I'm not surprised it was trashing your hair. You probably want to limit the amount of shampoo you use as well.

I would try a Curly Girl routine. At its most basic, that's conditioner only washing, leave in, and gel. To start with, though, I'd try just the CO and leave in, and see how that goes for at least 2-4 weeks. Then add in a gel if you think you need it. It sounds t me like what you need most of all is more conditioning/moisture intto your curls.

So...try a basic Suave or VO5 for CO. A lot of curlies love the Suave Tropical Coconut, so I'd be inclined to try that. It does have protein, but since you have F hair, it can probably handle a decent amount of protein--just check the label. I think it's silk protein, but just make sure. You can use it as your leave in, too. Only detangle in the shower with conditioner in your hair--don't do it when your hair is dry. You'll preserve more curl that way and reduce damage.

I would not start buying a lot of products or trying recipes at this point. You'll be wasting money and frustrating yourself because you don't really know what your hair likes. Start simple, see how it goes, and then add products as you need them.

You may want to talk to your celiac doctor about topical application of products that contain gluten. From what I've been told (I have relatives with diagnosed celiac disease or gluten intolerance), topically applied products don't cause issues for people with celiac disease, although of course you could have topical sensitivities on top of celiac. So it would be worthwhile discussing with your specialist.

[Syren_Curls]

:applause:applause:applause:applause

I knew there would be a lot of info and advice from this great community!!!! And you guys haven't let me down :-) In fact, you came through with more info than I thought and much more quickly too :cheer::cheer::joy::joy::joy:

Thanks so much to the mod (I'm guessing it was a mod, anyway) who fixed up my paragraphing, I feel less embarrassed now. Also a huge thank you to each of you who took the time to respond and your very helpful information--I'm feeling much less lost and freaked out now!

LauraLongLocks, You're very sweet to follow up :-) And thank you for the pic info, also!

Your 1c hair is beautiful :wink:

LanaBanana, Thanks so much for all of that great information! A big help! I did clarify now and then by doing a BS soak for 15-20 minutes... but it sounds like that wasn't the best plan, as you and Hootenanny pointed out. But I am really looking forward to trying the Neutrogena Anti Residue shampoo for clarifying.

I have to say, Hootenanny, that flax gel recipe looks fanTAStic!!!! I'm so excited to try it out and give my hair a nice treat! I never realized protein had a curl boosting effect but that will be a very helpful thing to keep in mind for me as a staple from now on. Thank you :-)

jeanniet, I did try out the CG routine a few years ago, at the waaaay beginning of my hair change/journey, and my hair was really weighed down. But that was a few years ago and, not only has a lot changed, but I may have been too inexperienced then to really trouble shoot or give it sufficient transition time or something. My point being, I think you're right about giving it a shot again. Thanks for breaking it down as simply as you did, I remember thinking of it as a drastic change and very complicated... goes to show you that a lot has definitely shifted in the time! I also appreciated your caution against buying everything on this thread like I want to :-P LOL. As for the gluten... sigh and smh. I had read the same that topical application shouldn't impact those of us with Celiac's. My specialist told me it's a topic of debate but that, since I'm so reactive right now, I should eliminate all exposure (I sarcastically asked if that meant I need to avoid walking down the street if there is a pizza place on it) until my immune system stabilizes . I fought him on it hard because I loved my beauty care routine and will be going for a second opinion, but, for the moment, I'm scared to ignore that.

You long haired's are phenomenal and awesome for not only calming me down about this, but providing a wealth of information and suggestions for me to get right on this!

So just to make sure I am getting this right... it sounds like I should stay away from the BS/ACV. Instead, I should try a clarifying shampoo with the Neutrogena Anti Residue shampoo then do a CO with something like the Suave Tropical Coconut (I LOVE COCONUT!) or VO5. Should that be followed by the Shea Moisture as a protein-heavier conditioner rinse? Or do a leave in? I'll stick with that for 2-4 weeks then begin using the flax seed or gelatin gel recipes. And at that point, I'll start adding products as I go... Does that sound like a good plan and a good summary of everything?

I'll definitely keep updates coming!

[Syren_Curls]

Just a quick update, since I said I would give one.

I can't seem to upload pics on Photobucket to share a link, so I won't have pictures :-(

But the info everyone shared has really been a HUGE help! I picked up Suave's Tropical Coconut for CO and the Shea Moisture coconut & hibiscus conditioner for afterwards. My hair has been really responding well! The only downside is that, for now, I have to CO every other day-and that's a stretch. Since I let my TBL hair air-dry, it takes a little while. But I'll take it for now ;-) I also got the Neutrogena Anti-Residue clarifying shampoo to start with before the CO. My scalp was irritated for the first time in my life and I was using a sulfate for the first time in a number of years, but if it helps maintain things better and in a healthier way, occasional use won't kill me. In about a week or so, I'll either try the flaxseed gel or the Shea Moisture curl enhancing smoothie to help hold curls.

I've also been doing some S&D which has been good for getting rid of split ends and white spots. I'm debating a trim but I'm scared to do it myself. I've been considering going to the George Michael salon here in NYC, but I've read that they're good for 1 hairtypes and not really curly or wurly haireds. I'm not sure I buy that though but we'll see. Either way, my hair is coming back into itself and I think a trim or dusting would only help that. CO really seemed to be a big help with that.

Thanks again, everyone!

[Neecola]

Hi Syren! Glad you are having some luck with your recent changes. It's a good idea to slowly incorporate the changes so you can see what works and what doesn't.

We have a similar hairtype, although my hair is much shorter (between APL & BSL at the moment). CO-washing never worked out for me, despite trying different modifications for over a year. It just wasn't suitable for my scalp. My favorite method is shampoo bars. They aren't for everyone but I just love what they do for my hair! I also use the Trader Joe's Tea Tree Tingle conditioner to co-wash the length and sometimes a smidge of it as a leave in.

I have been using queenieheather's recipe for gelatin hair gel, switching off with flax seed gel. I usually don't soak my hair in it because it weighs my curls down too much. I mostly let my hair dry and use a bit of gel at the very end to control the flyaways.

I just started trimming my hair myself and love it! You have a lot of control over how much you take off, so you can start with just a teeny bit. The nice thing about curly hair is that even if you cut a bit crooked, you can't tell :)

Good luck with your routine going forward. It is fun to experiment. Check in and let us know how you get on.

[jeanniet]

I'm glad to hear things are doing better in regards to your hair. I would avoid going to the George Michael salon, because they aren't trained to deal with curly hair. You might look for a Deva salon instead. They do dry cuts and cut according to the curl pattern.

[Hootenanny]

Yay! So glad things are working for you! :) If you ever feel the need to clarify in the future and want to avoid/reduce irritation, you can always dilute the shampoo. I clarify about once a month, and I put around a tablespoon of shampoo into a squirt bottle, then fill with water. It really helps to make the shampoo less drying.

And I agree with jeanniet about not going to the George Michael salon. I wanted to go there as well, but then I found out that they absolutely refuse to cut layers for any reason! I was baffled about this, and when I asked about it here, I was told by a number of people not to go to GM, as they have no understanding of curly hair.

Like jeanniet, I would recommend a Deva Salon instead. The Deva Salons originated in NYC, so you could get an amazing stylist, possibly trained by Lorraine Massey (inventor of the CG method/cuts) herself! I used to go the White Plains salon myself, and I loved it. You could also try self-trimming; curly hair is pretty forgiving when it comes to hemlines. Waterlily716 has some great youtube vids on self-trimming 3a/3b curly hair.

So glad things are working out, and hope to see you around the boards again. TBL when curly is my goal; you are an inspiration! :)

[Syren_Curls]

You ladies are so encouraging and supportive! Thank you all so much :-)

Hootenanny and Neecola, you guys make a really good point about curly hair and trims not being perfect... that helps me feel a lot less nervous about the self trims. And I look forward to checking out YouTube videos you suggested, Hootenanny!

Jeanniet and Hootenanny... I'm a bit nervous to head to the Deva Salon because I am afraid they'll cut too much off :-/ How were your experiences with it, if you don't mind my asking, Hootenanny? And you make a great point about diluting the clarifying shampoo to avoid irritation! I'm looking forward to that!

Neecola, I'm sorry to hear you tried CO for over a year with no luck but I'm glad you were able to find a routine you and your hair love... and I really appreciate your mentioning the shampoo bars. I've been seeing them mentioned around the boards and did a few Google searches, but I can't seem to figure out what makes them unique, other than that they aren't liquid. If you don't mind my asking, what has been the benefit for you?

I *think* I've figured out how to post pics, so here's one from the day I posted this thread... and I'll upload the pretty one after my wash tonight so it looks pretty :-)

http://s242.photobucket.com/user/sallyn_album/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140317_000741-1-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

[Neecola]

Your hair is a very pretty color, Syren. I like the shape of your hemline. Does it naturally grow into a V? Mine does but I keep cutting it straight. I think it will look better on me when my hair is longer.

The shampoo bars I use are true soap, fats (oils) saponified with lye. I actually make my own now! There are solid shampoo bars that are just conventional shampoo minus the water. Check out the shampoo bar thread (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=74) for lots of information! I say they are not for everyone because they have a high pH, which is why many people follow with an acidic rinse. Some people with hard water have problems with them (mine is hard but I recently moved to a house with a softener. I used them in both places) For me, the advantages are that my hair stays cleaner longer, my hair has body and lots of shine and less frizz. It feels more like the hair I had as a child.

[Hootenanny]

I'm with you on worrying about the Deva salon trimming too much off. This is why self-trimming might be a better option. My own experiences with Deva salons won't be helpful here, because back when I was going to them, I wasn't trying to grow my hair, or even maintain length. Back then, I kinda just told my stylist to do whatever she thought would look good! :lol: Now that I don't trim at all, I almost never go to salons. I've been once in the past three years (since I started growing my pixie out), and it wasn't to a Deva salon (I moved away from NYC). Maybe if you called a Deva salon and specifically requested a stylist that works with long hair? And make sure to have them show you exactly how much hair they will be cutting? I don't know, it would still make me nervous though... shudder: Sorry I can't be more help!

[Syren_Curls]

Neecola, thank you for the very nice compliment. My hair is dark brown, almost a black, with henna over it and some fading hendigo (henna + indigo). It naturally does taper but I also had long layers put in about a year and a half ago that I had been trimming out until recently. I never really liked my hair in a V-shaped hemline until it got around waist length so I think you make a good point about maybe liking it a bit more on your hair when it gets a bit longer. You have gorgeous hair, from what I see in your profile pic! I also appreciated your info on the shampoo bars. I love the idea of making them yourself... I may look into that for clarifying at least and if the CO doesn't work out. I clarified yesterday and it still feels like I have buildup. I'm hoping it might still just be a transition phase, but, if not, your info on shampoo bars will be very helpful in the next round of experimenting :-)

Hootenanny, you have been a great help! I really like your idea of calling the Deva salon to see who might be a better stylist for longer hair. I will still probably be nervous about it, but I can help offset some of that by asking him/her to show me how much hair (on my own hair and not the comb) would be cut. It sounds like you had a great experience with them for your needs :-)

I've really been appreciating all of the info and help from everyone so far. Now I've just got to figure out what this last bit of buildup needs to get clarified ;-) Here is a pic, though my hair is not at its best... and I didn't get the best lighting, but you can see a big difference from my first one:

http://s242.photobucket.com/user/sallyn_album/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20140409_113619.jpg.html

[Syren_Curls]

:-( This is happening again but even worse and almost immediately after co-washing... I haven't done anything differently since my last update in terms of the routine, except to try just the STC for both wash and leave in, but it's just a ball of stringy grease within a few hours all the way from scalp to ends. I can't deal with this and I can't figure out how to fix it :-(

[GoldenSilk]

Did you try clarifying it again? I'm a finey too and I find my hair needs clarifying about once a month on CO, especially if I've been using a lot of different products. I have hard water, which also builds up, and causes more grease problems too, because it inhibits the conditioner from being able to form suds and clean my hair. I need to use a hard water shampoo (with chelators) to take care of that.

The fact that it's greasy within a few hours makes me think that the CO wash is "failing"... Just what I call it. I use diluted VO5 to CO wash because it's really light and cleansing (especially the ones marked clarifying), and I have way fewer fails than I did when I tried Suave. My length still loves Suave, but I guess my scalp doesn't think it's cleansing enough. I do still get a fail if I don't scrub long enough, though. Might be related to buildup and (for me) hard water as well.

:grouphug: I can't see your pictures for some reason, but your hair sounds really beautiful! Hang in there!

[Syren_Curls]

Did you try clarifying it again? I'm a finey too and I find my hair needs clarifying about once a month on CO, especially if I've been using a lot of different products. I have hard water, which also builds up, and causes more grease problems too, because it inhibits the conditioner from being able to form suds and clean my hair. I need to use a hard water shampoo (with chelators) to take care of that.

The fact that it's greasy within a few hours makes me think that the CO wash is "failing"... Just what I call it. I use diluted VO5 to CO wash because it's really light and cleansing (especially the ones marked clarifying), and I have way fewer fails than I did when I tried Suave. My length still loves Suave, but I guess my scalp doesn't think it's cleansing enough. I do still get a fail if I don't scrub long enough, though. Might be related to buildup and (for me) hard water as well.

:grouphug: I can't see your pictures for some reason, but your hair sounds really beautiful! Hang in there!

:grouphug: back at you, GoldenSilk. Thank you for the compliment and the kind words of encouragement. It's very clear from your avatar that you have beautiful hair!

In the month and a half or so I have been trying CO, I have had to clarify 4 times already. My last wash before this one was a clarify and I managed to stretch that one for a week. When I started, it took longer before I needed to do it then progressively less and less time goes by before I need to do it again. I'm thinking you're right about this as a "fail." I can't seem to justify clarifying at every wash or close to it if I am trying to do something less harsh and gentler for my hair. I'm just not sure if I need a different conditioner to keep trying CO or if I need to just try a shampoo bar or something else. I hadn't considered what you're doing, a different conditioner for the scalp and then one for the length... I wonder if that will do it for me, since I am seeing this from scalp through the entire length, but it does help get the problem-solving juices flowing. I definitely like your thought of diluting whatever it is I go with to help keep it lighter while also cleansing.

You mentioned still getting a fail if you're not scrubbing long enough... how have you been figuring out what's been long enough or if that's what's causing the fail? Maybe that will help me trouble shoot... :-/

[Charybdis]

Something to keep in mind is that most clarifying shampoos are not chelating shampoos. If you have hard water, part of the problem could be mineral buildup on the hair shaft. I would suggest trying a chelating shampoo, like Joico K-PAK Clarifying Shampoo (http://www.joico.com/products/k-pak-clarifying-shampoo-2/).

If you are needing to do a clarifying wash nearly once a week (!), it sounds like the clarifying shampoo you are using is not removing what needs to be removed. It does seem like fineys suffer more with buildup, both product and mineral, so clarifying once a month sounds reasonable, but needing to clarify once a week makes me think something isn't working.

Good luck!

[Syren_Curls]

Something to keep in mind is that most clarifying shampoos are not chelating shampoos. If you have hard water, part of the problem could be mineral buildup on the hair shaft. I would suggest trying a chelating shampoo, like Joico K-PAK Clarifying Shampoo (http://www.joico.com/products/k-pak-clarifying-shampoo-2/).

If you are needing to do a clarifying wash nearly once a week (!), it sounds like the clarifying shampoo you are using is not removing what needs to be removed. It does seem like fineys suffer more with buildup, both product and mineral, so clarifying once a month sounds reasonable, but needing to clarify once a week makes me think something isn't working.

Good luck!

I'm so glad you brought this up... both the point about chelating shampoos and fine hair. I was certain we don't have hard water here, but I looked it up online. Turns out that we do. I wouldn't have looked further because I was so certain (based on another unrelated question from a few years ago) but it really could be the key. Layer on that the fact that I am a finey and it really may be just what the issue is.

And *thank you* for understanding my frustration! I was thinking something here wasn't working and I really shouldn't be needing a clarify so frequently-especially when I hadn't been using anything other than conditioner.

I'm new to understanding chelating shampoos so thank you for the recommendation. I actually used to use the Joico K-PAK some years ago just because I had a family member who was a hair stylist and it was around. Is there anything specific I need to know about using a chelating shampoo? I hadn't paid it much attention since I thought we didn't have hard water here :-/ I would imagine using it maybe once a month like the clarifying...??

[Charybdis]

Yes, I would think using a chelating shampoo once a month should do it for you. You're already using a cone-free conditioner, right? If you still have buildup issues, you could use a gentle shampoo (I like the ShiKai line) in between clarifying/chelating washes.

[Syren_Curls]

Yes, I would think using a chelating shampoo once a month should do it for you. You're already using a cone-free conditioner, right? If you still have buildup issues, you could use a gentle shampoo (I like the ShiKai line) in between clarifying/chelating washes.

Thanks, Charybdis. This has been a big help and I'm really looking forward to getting back to "normal" with a new routine. Yes, I use a cone-free conditioner and will keep it that way :-) The ShiKai shampoos look great too, thanks for the recommendation.

[Charybdis]

:thumbsup: [extra characters]

[Syren_Curls]

So I've used a chelant and no LI while making sure I used a lot of water and conditioner for the CO. My hair is nearly fully dried and it looks SO MUCH better and feels almost like itself. It's the tiniest touch dry but I think that's part of what to expect with the chelant... and I can always use a light oiling or refreshing mist so I'm not nearly as concerned about that.

Phew! And major thank you's! I'm so relieved, this was making me freak out a bit, if it wasn't obvius :-)