what is the problem with 'cones'..?

[jsdolly122]

ok so forgive my ignorance... and please dont bite my head off! but what exactly is the problem with silicones?

it seems everywhere I read has a big nono about them.. but then some of you on LHC say your hair "loves it", so whats the deal?

are they a problem because of just generally being chemicals.. so bad for health overall?

or is it a personal thing, like the protein - your hair "likes" or "dislikes" it? if this is the case, how do you know?
ok thanks! again... sorry if this is a really dumb question :s

[Weewah]

Silicones coat the hair so they're good at sealing/hiding damage, and adding slip/shine. This is the good thing about them that people like.

The bad things about cones is that they don't wash out without using a harsh surfactant such as sulfates, which roughs up the cuticle. They build up over time which leads to frustrating hair that needs to be clarified. And because of their nature to coat the hair, they prevent moisture from getting in, causing hair to dry out.

Now there are advanced water-soluble silicones that have been created, which give the benefits of silicones without any of the drawbacks, and I love those! A quick Google search will show you lists of water soluble silicones.

[ravenreed]

I conditioner wash and have extraordinarily hard water where I live. Because of the crazy hard water, I get build up very easily. Since I don't wash with shampoo often, I avoid cones as much as possible to avoid build up.

[Firefox7275]

It's not a dumb question but there are regular breads on this, so its worth running an advanced search to get the full picture.

[Nadine <3]

Not everyone here hates silicone. I use it from time to time if I want to wear my hair down. It's great for keeping the tangles at bay. It's a personal preference.

[Larki]

I've never NOT used silicones, and I've never had problems with my hair resulting from them as far as I know, but I would like to try silicone-free shampoo and conditioner once my current S&C run out, just to see what happens!

[Crumpet]

Silicones coat the hair so they're good at sealing/hiding damage, and adding slip/shine. This is the good thing about them that people like.

The bad things about cones is that they don't wash out without using a harsh surfactant such as sulfates, which roughs up the cuticle. They build up over time which leads to frustrating hair that needs to be clarified. And because of their nature to coat the hair, they prevent moisture from getting in, causing hair to dry out.

Now there are advanced water-soluble silicones that have been created, which give the benefits of silicones without any of the drawbacks, and I love those! A quick Google search will show you lists of water soluble silicones.

This is a good description. A side effect is that they often mask the condition of your hair and even basic characteristics of hair. It wasn't until I gave them up that I realized just how wavy I really am.

[hairpleasegrow]

I have researched some old threads and from what I remember some people say also that silicones coat your hair....and because of this some products won't absorb into your hair the same as if you didn't wear silicones.

I have fine hair thats been chemically damaged. I used cones up until 3 months ago. I've now switched to a non cone conditioner that has been amazing on my hair. I also cat nip rinse.

Are you thinking of starting or stopping cones? Alot of people on past threads said if you have damaged hair you probably need cones. And for that reason I was scared to stop using cones... but you will never really know what is good for your hair until you try not using ( or using them depending on your situation. )

It is terrifying to think of all the chemicals that are in products these days. If you are not sure about the chemicals or toxins in your products I encourage you to research it and find out :)

[Marika]

I've tried both ways (many times) but I always go back to cones. I've never had problems with build up but I use mostly sulfate shampoos and have soft water. In my experience, sulfate shampoos are gentler than sulfate-free ones. I also don't have problems with cones hiding damage. Why wouldn't you want to hide damage if you can...? After all, there's no such thing as 100 % damage free hair. You have to try what works for you! :flower:

[Panth]

Silicones coat the hair so they're good at sealing/hiding damage, and adding slip/shine. This is the good thing about them that people like.

The bad things about cones is that they don't wash out without using a harsh surfactant such as sulfates, which roughs up the cuticle. They build up over time which leads to frustrating hair that needs to be clarified. And because of their nature to coat the hair, they prevent moisture from getting in, causing hair to dry out.

Now there are advanced water-soluble silicones that have been created, which give the benefits of silicones without any of the drawbacks, and I love those! A quick Google search will show you lists of water soluble silicones.

This, except that bit about moisture. Contrary to belief, 'cones do not create a completely impermeable barrier - to water, to oil or to anything else. (Yes, they may reduce absorption. But that's hardly the same as prevent.)

[tigereye]

This, except that bit about moisture. Contrary to belief, 'cones do not create a completely impermeable barrier - to water, to oil or to anything else. (Yes, they may reduce absorption. But that's hardly the same as prevent.)
In my personal experience, my hair was exceptionally dry with cones and nothing I tried could penetrate it except SLS.

I don't use cones any more, largely because I can't clarify very easily because of my SLS allergy. I know there are newer ones that resist build-up, but I've simply got used to not using them.

[Wildcat Diva]

Without cones, my hair is really wavy. Cones loosens the wave by at least one letter of hair type while I use them.

[renia22]

I think it's a personal preference thing, but if you do a search for "silicone hair myths", a lot of articles pop up that sort through what is urban legend & what is actually true. The beauty brains are my favorite:

http://archive.feedblitz.com/64871/~3902663

[ErinLeigh]

I think it's a personal preference thing, but if you do a search for "silicone hair myths", a lot of articles pop up that sort through what is urban legend & what is actually true. The beauty brains are my favorite:

http://archive.feedblitz.com/64871/~3902663

Intrigued by link. Says of the best conditioning agents.. I thought the opposite, blocked certain ingredients from sticking. Hmmm
I am still on a water soluble only kick(if used at all) since I am cowashing more often, but sometimes I miss the other cones and the products that have them.

[tigereye]

I think in the end, it comes down to personal preference.
The beauty brains article mentioned above is correct in that cones can lock moisture both out and in. My experience with dry hair in a wet climate was that it was locked out. Perhaps I'd have a different experience with less dry hair in a dry climate.
Again, the "silicones will wash out no problem" was not true for me. Most stuck to my hair strands like glue, especially since I can't use most harsh sulphates these days (like amodimethicone- which is not meant to build up - could not get that stuff out of my hair without clarifying. Thankfully, it was only neck down, so the shampoo didn't touch my skin enough to aggravate my allergy), especially those related to SLS or SLES (I have in part wondered if it was something about my hair structure that things attach well to since in the past, I've also had a temporary 1-wash dye that took a full year to fade out on me).

The point is that everyone's hair is different. For me, it dries out my hair, was hard to wash out, and I'd prefer to be able to see my split ends, so I don't use cones. Maybe for someone else, it locks moisture in, is easy to wash out and makes their hair lay nice by hiding the damage. Doesn't make either of us less wrong.
It also doesn't mean that silicones are "one of the most effective conditioning ingredients" for everyone.
As a science student who hates blanket statements (advice from my lecturers - never trust a blanket statement without multiple references), I'd turn their own challenge around and ask the beauty brains folks to provide data that their statement is true. I've scoured the science databases and so far I've found little evidence either way that has stood up to peer-review by scientists.
So far, I've discovered that amodimethicone provides a similar lustre to the hair as castor oil; liquid crystal colloidal substances present in some shampoos increase silicone deposits, especially on coloured hair, and so better smoothed the damage; silicones don't significantly affect the structure denaturation of hair being straightened, but improve quality of the straightness by smoothing the cuticle under the gliding action of the iron. Most of the papers that use the term conditioning specify it as changes in smoothness and softness, rather than moisture content - we all know silicones smooth the hair, but I'd like to see information on moisture content, which is annoyingly absent. In fact, most of the studies are done on protecting already damaged hair, which is no surprise really (straightening treatments on Afro-American type hair seeming to be the most frequently used - in one of the studies, the two best conditioners were deemed Jojoba oil and lauryl PEG/PPG 18-18 methicone, both out passing the likes of cyclopentasiloxane, and others which are more common in hair products (which were a lot less conditioning, but more effectively reduced breakage from worsening damage from the treatment)) since that's what most people prefer to know with common hair-care practices.
What a lot of us on the LHC want from our conditioners is different because we are not often exposed to such high levels of damage as perms. I'd prefer moisture to damage control because I can do my own damage control through the way I wear and treat my hair. I think I might head out and try to find a bottle of jojoba though. That set of results was certainly interesting to read though.
Ok, should really get back to what I was meant to be researching just there :p - thromboembolism and migraine. Bit of a change of subject, eh?

[Crabbyco]

For me it's the side effects that made me quit 'cones. My skin has cleared up after 20+ years of acne problems. I have tried sulfate shampoo and 'cone products separately after stopping using them and they both cause break-out to start again. I'm working on removing sulfates from all products that I use and it's overwhelming how many things have sulfates and 'cones.

[sarahthegemini]

Well I avoid silicones for 2 reasons, the first being, I discovered that my hair has a lot more body without them, and secondly, I co-wash so try to avoid anything that can build up quickly.

Eta: Forgot to mention...we won't bite your head off! :)

[renia22]

tigereye-so true about doing your own research and your own experimenting. I happen to really like the beauty brains and Paula Begoun, but both are pretty hard on natural ingredients and I don't always listen to everything they say, despite having respect for the work that they do. A few of the Aubrey Organics conditioners are still my favorite for hair, and I do like alcohol despite Paul Begoun's harsh assessment of it. But even she will say, "if you find something you really like, don't listen to me, keep using it!" Also cosdna.com is a site I always double check too, it seems like even some of her & other supposed non comedogenic products have some possible acne causing ingredients, so rarely will I believe package claims before checking on there.

However, I do think advertising heavily influences our opinions (anyone who is old enough to remember the days prior to anti- sulfate, anti-silicone advertising, was there ever this much focus on individual ingredients??). Also, I do think myths spread like wildfire, and it's easy to get caught up in believing them when sometimes that's all they really are, are myths. By all means, I think it's important to do your own research and experimenting...

[~Abi~]

My reason for going cone-free a couple weeks ago was because I wanted to start CO washing and didn't want build-up. Since starting the CO washing, and thus also being cone-free, my hair has a lot more body, holds curls better (I damp bun after washing), and feels softer.

[tigereye]

A few of the Aubrey Organics conditioners are still my favorite for hair, and I do like alcohol despite Paul Begoun's harsh assessment of it.

Cetearyl alcohol, by any chance? It tends to get a bad rap for what it actually is. People seem to only see alcohol, and not the cetearyl part (a bit like sodium ferrocyanate in salt - the cyanide group is so strongly attached, your body chemistry cannot break it apart, and so it is harmless. People just see cyanate and think poison!). It's a fatty alcohol (along with lauryl alcohol, stearyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol and benehyl alcohol), which means its actually an emulsifier and an emollient. They are, despite the name, not only what often holds a conditioner together, but a conditioning molecule itself. You could say they're "good" alcohols because the lipid chain stops them from evaporating.
Sure, things like alcohol denat or isopropyl alcohol are probably not great since they form weak bonds with water and evaporate, drying your hair out, but they're short-chain, non-fatty alcohols.

[renia22]

Cetearyl alcohol, by any chance? It tends to get a bad rap for what it actually is. People seem to only see alcohol, and not the cetearyl part (a bit like sodium ferrocyanate in salt - the cyanide group is so strongly attached, your body chemistry cannot break it apart, and so it is harmless. People just see cyanate and think poison!). It's a fatty alcohol (along with lauryl alcohol, stearyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol and benehyl alcohol), which means its actually an emulsifier and an emollient. They are, despite the name, not only what often holds a conditioner together, but a conditioning molecule itself. You could say they're "good" alcohols because the lipid chain stops them from evaporating.
Sure, things like alcohol denat or isopropyl alcohol are probably not great since they form weak bonds with water and evaporate, drying your hair out, but they're short-chain, non-fatty alcohols.


Oops, I should have elaborated. I know what you mean about the confusion regarding fatty vs drying alcohols for hair and see a lot of people say, "it's drying, it has alcohol" when actually it's a moisturizing alcohol they are referring to. Paula Begoun focuses mostly on skincare, and she's referring to being opposed to the drying alcohols used in products, which I actually like in my skincare (like toners..I have yet to find an alcohol free toner that I really like)

[Layton]

the silicone create barrier to prevent moisture getting and drying it out i think?

[meteor]

Silicones act like artificial oils. I've never seen proof that cones actually dry out hair, they just slow down the process of water evaporation, as all occlusives/anti-humectants do.
Oils can be difficult to wash out without SLS/SLES, too, but nobody calls them "bad" just because they form a film that may need to be clarified from time to time if you applied too much.

My biggest problem with cones is that they really straighten my hair, make me lose volume and make hair too slippery to stay in styles for too long. But they are truly excellent for slip and shine and frizz control.

[Anje]

I have trouble with silicones making my hair dry, personally, roughly 3 days after using them. I suspect it might be the volatile ones like cyclopentasiloxane that are chiefly responsible for it, but I haven't confirmed that yet. They also seem to increase the number of single-stranded knots I get. With hair that readily slips out of hairstyles, the additional slip of silicones isn't always welcome; on the other hand, hair that has damage or is prone to tangling can be much easier to handle with that additional slip.

But it's really a very "what works best for you" sort of thing. Silicones aren't universally good or bad. They're just a tool that some like and some don't need.

[jsdolly122]

wowza!! thanks so much for all the replies!

well I guess the reason I started this thread was because a few days ago i used this product lying around my house - "marc anthony argan oil treatment" (which is not really argan only, mostly silicones!)
ingredients: Cyclopentasiloxane, Dimethicone, Cyclohexasiloxane, Argania Spinosa Kernel Oil, Linum Usitatissimum (Linseed) Seed Oil, Isodecyl Neopentanoate, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Seed Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Keratin, Fragrance, Paraffinum Liquidum, Tocopheryl Acetate, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter)

anyway after trying all different kinds of oils my hair was just dry and frizy.. and nothing was working, which is why I tried this product. and poof! my hair is like silk!! it's been about 4 days now (I dont shampoo often) and its still so silky and soft! soooo this had me look up ingredients, and i saw wow this is like allll cones... but i thought cones were "bad"... and hence my posting this question.
so thats where im coming from. anyone have any thoughts on these particular ingredients??

[woodswanderer]

My thought is a question about dimethicones. I have recently been trying Jason's Super Shine Apricot shampoo and conditioner to try to avoid pthalates and parabens, and then I heard it was a water soluble cone so I was excited about trying that. However it says it has dimethicone in it, so i am confused because I thought dimethicone was not water soluable. Did they change the formula, or am I just confused?

[starlamelissa]

I use sulphate shampoo so cones dont build up for me. I have become enamored with pantene lately, they have this bis-amino 'cone that just feels like heaven in my hair. I used to be a cyclopentasiloxane junkie, but lately I love bis amino cones. In addition to superior detangling, my hair is has a lasting silky feeling, resistance to breakage, and noteworthy shine.

[Anje]

Yep, silicones = silky hair. It's kinda artificial, but if your hair likes it, it's not a bad thing.

[renia22]

wowza!! thanks so much for all the replies!

well I guess the reason I started this thread was because a few days ago i used this product lying around my house - "marc anthony argan oil treatment" (which is not really argan only, mostly silicones!)
ingredients: Cyclopentasiloxane, Dimethicone, Cyclohexasiloxane, Argania Spinosa Kernel Oil, Linum Usitatissimum (Linseed) Seed Oil, Isodecyl Neopentanoate, Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Seed Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Keratin, Fragrance, Paraffinum Liquidum, Tocopheryl Acetate, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter)

anyway after trying all different kinds of oils my hair was just dry and frizy.. and nothing was working, which is why I tried this product. and poof! my hair is like silk!! it's been about 4 days now (I dont shampoo often) and its still so silky and soft! soooo this had me look up ingredients, and i saw wow this is like allll cones... but i thought cones were "bad"... and hence my posting this question.
so thats where im coming from. anyone have any thoughts on these particular ingredients??

That's great it's working for you! I would use it if you like it. You can always switch to something else or clarify if it stops working for some reason.

[renia22]

My thought is a question about dimethicones. I have recently been trying Jason's Super Shine Apricot shampoo and conditioner to try to avoid pthalates and parabens, and then I heard it was a water soluble cone so I was excited about trying that. However it says it has dimethicone in it, so i am confused because I thought dimethicone was not water soluable. Did they change the formula, or am I just confused?

It used to be on cone free lists a few years back, then it's had a couple of different ingredient lists with cones since about 2008 or so. It looks like it's been reformulated a few times. Grrr with those sneaky reformations, I hate that too.

[tigereye]

My thought is a question about dimethicones. I have recently been trying Jason's Super Shine Apricot shampoo and conditioner to try to avoid pthalates and parabens, and then I heard it was a water soluble cone so I was excited about trying that. However it says it has dimethicone in it, so i am confused because I thought dimethicone was not water soluable. Did they change the formula, or am I just confused?

Sorry, but, no, Dimethicone isn't water soluble. Nor is it one of the new types that prevent build up once a film has formed. Must have been a new formula.

[PamelaViktoria]

The reason I discovered this site in the first place, was because of cones. I didn't know what they were, but was using them. My hair would lose it's shine and get hard. Long hair ladies here taught me to deep cleanse,and try not using them. It made me go from blah hair to good hair:)

[jsdolly122]

The reason I discovered this site in the first place, was because of cones. I didn't know what they were, but was using them. My hair would lose it's shine and get hard. Long hair ladies here taught me to deep cleanse,and try not using them. It made me go from blah hair to good hair:)

what shampoo and conditioner do you use?

[jsdolly122]

That's great it's working for you! I would use it if you like it. You can always switch to something else or clarify if it stops working for some reason.

well I wanted to isolate the "magic" ingredient because I haaate the smell of the marc anthony oil!

also, something else I have been unclear about is clarifying.. ha. what is a "clarfying" shampoo?

[Panth]

well I wanted to isolate the "magic" ingredient because I haaate the smell of the marc anthony oil!

also, something else I have been unclear about is clarifying.. ha. what is a "clarfying" shampoo?

Clarifying is using a specialised wash (usually a shampoo labeled 'clarifying') to remove excess product build-up. Basically, the shampoo is generally stronger than normal shampoos, it often is SLS-heavy (though there are SLS-free clarifying shampoos, usually based on cocoamidopropyl betaine which is a non-SLS detergent that can remove 'cones). Most importantly, the shampoo does not contain any ingredients that would coat or build-up. Many regular shampoos (particularly pearlescent-coloured ones) contain 'cones. Clarifying ones do not.

A related concept is chelating, which is using a specialised wash to remove excess mineral or chlorine build-up. For this, you use shampoos labelled 'chelating' or 'swimmer's'. These shampoos are generally EDTA-heavy (not just EDTA-containing) and, like clarifying shampoos, lack ingredients that would coat/build-up.

Build-up (mineral or product) can result in tangling, unmanageability, loss of shine, dryness, etc. You need to look at your routine (conditioner, leave-ins - are they heavy in 'cones or other things that can build-up, e.g. waxes, oils) and your water (do you have hard water?) and your lifestyle (do you swim? in pools?). That will tell you what sort of build-up is most likely in your case. A final alternative is protein overload, which can have similar symptoms to product build-up. That might be suspected if your usual conditioner is protein-heavy. Some people's hair is just intolerant to protein. The solution for that is simply to stop using protein-containing products for a while and maybe do a few heavier moisturising treatments to get the protein/moisture balance back to a more normal state.

[Henna Girl]

I am going to talk from my own experience here since I don't really know the science behind it. After stopping the 'cones I noticed that my hair stopped being so limp and lifeless. Now it has more texture and doesn't slip down from the updos. I will never go back to 'cones they did not suit my hair type at all. I hope this is helpful.

[Ambystoma]

well I wanted to isolate the "magic" ingredient because I haaate the smell of the marc anthony oil!


You might like the Garnier Sleek and Shine serum with argan oil in that case, the ingredient list and order is virtually identical - it just depends on how you feel about the signature Garnier "sugary green apple bubble gum" scent, I'd have a sniff of it instore and see if it's better than the fragrance in the one you already have.

[renia22]

well I wanted to isolate the "magic" ingredient because I haaate the smell of the marc anthony oil!

also, something else I have been unclear about is clarifying.. ha. what is a "clarfying" shampoo?

Exactly what panth said about the clarifying. That's basically to wash the silicones out if your hair properly so they don't build up and start doing weird things to your hair (although some people use silicones with no problem and don't have an issue with build up).

Also I second what Ambystroma suggested about finding a serum with a similar ingredient list that might work the same way on your hair. There are a lot of argan oil serums out there now, so maybe you can find one that's not so different.

Scents can make it or break it for me, too. Recently I bought a bottle of serum that I really like, but the smell gets to me. It's not a bad smell, just sort of masculine and strong. At first I thought it smelled like a cologne John Travolta would have worn in the movie "Saturday Night Fever". It's the type of scent you would imagine a ladies man in the late 70s/ early 80s to have worn. Or maybe something the man in the Dos Equis commercial would wear ("The most interesting man in the world!"). Finally I had my husband smell my hair and asked what he thought, and he said I smelled like his 85 year old childhood barber :/. So I ended up getting some Kiehll's silk groom serum and I like that one much better. At least the scent fades and I'm not distracted all day by thoughts of which swingers from the 70s would smell like me :). Hope you find one you like too!

[jsdolly122]

great! I definitely check out the garnier

would any of you be able to recommend a relatively gentle clarifying shampoo?

[renia22]

great! I definitely check out the garnier

would any of you be able to recommend a relatively gentle clarifying shampoo?


If you don't have objections to any particular ingredients, you can get something inexpensive like Vo5 kiwi lime or Suave daily clarifying. Those generally get good reviews, and they are only $1

[ErinLeigh]

My thought is a question about dimethicones. I have recently been trying Jason's Super Shine Apricot shampoo and conditioner to try to avoid pthalates and parabens, and then I heard it was a water soluble cone so I was excited about trying that. However it says it has dimethicone in it, so i am confused because I thought dimethicone was not water soluable. Did they change the formula, or am I just confused?
The water soluble ones from my understanding the dimethicones which are water soluble are
1. Stearoxy Dimethicone
2. Behenoxy Dimethicone
3. Dimethicone Copolyol

At least that is what the internet lists stated as such.