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View Full Version : Legally, is there anything that can be done...



Solange
September 12th, 2008, 06:12 AM
...about hairdressers that do their own thing regardless of the customers' instructions? Here's a scenario: A very long haired woman goes to a salon and asks for one inch to be trimmed off the very ends of her hair. She is very insistent that they cut off no more, no matter if they think her ends are thin, damaged and could use a much bigger trim. Let's say she brought a witness or recorded this conversation with the hairdresser's assent that she would only take off one inch. Nonetheless, one big chop and thirty inches of hair end up on the ground. Could the customer sue for emotional distress? A longhair's identity is often so closely tied in with their hair that this could be nothing short of traumatic, but could legal action be taken?

Edit: Yes, this is a fictional scenario. I haven't had anything of the kind happen to me. My mother has been my only hairdresser, and I do dread the day she wouldn't be able to cut my hair anymore, whether because she has arthritis, has died, etc. Maybe one of my sisters could do it?

Tap Dancer
September 12th, 2008, 06:51 AM
One inch and thirty inches is a HUGE difference. No one could call that a simple mistake. Different states might have different laws, so you might want to check with a lawyer.

brok3nwings
September 12th, 2008, 06:56 AM
I really dont know to answer that but i think it is something to consider or at least see if its possible... those people are giving such a pain without having it in consideration. :(

Gothic Lolita
September 12th, 2008, 07:05 AM
Here in Germany this kind of behaviour is stated by law as "bodily harm". You can even get compensation for pain and suffering, but of course, you need to press charges agains t the hair dresser.

I bet in the US there is a similiar way of handling this.

tameriska
September 12th, 2008, 07:18 AM
All I can say is, OMG, I hope that this is only a scenario.
30"!!!!!!!!!!! :mad: that is nearly all the hair that I have on my head

Curlsgirl
September 12th, 2008, 07:29 AM
You can sue for anything you want to. Winning is a different matter. But yes I think if you had a witness you would have a good chance of winning with a good lawyer.

happymommy
September 12th, 2008, 08:48 AM
I wonder if it would be considered breach (breech???) of a verbal contract?

ssjhotau2
September 12th, 2008, 09:54 AM
I think you could win. It *Is* a breech of contract and if you have a witness to the contract it makes your stance all the more valid.

I wouldn't try for money though, I would fight with everything to get her liscense (or whatever its called) revoked. It would make other beauticians think twice before just snipping away.

I liked my old hairdresser, she would snip a tiny bit, then ask if thats where I wanted it, then snip a bit more. Our sessions could take almost 2 hours, but she had long, thick, gorgeous hair and I imagine she would have been devastated to have all of hers chopped off. Ofcourse she's always full now so I had to go to someone else :(

The first person I went to after her told me my hair was sooo damaged and wanted to chop it to about 3 inches. I argued with her for about 10 minutes. I finally just said "Its my hair and I want it cut the way *I* want it cut, if you can't do that I need someone who can."

FrannyG
September 12th, 2008, 10:08 AM
I suspect that in your scenario, you could sue and win. However, that wouldn't bring the hair back.

The more I read here, the more I think that anyone who goes to a salon for a trim should bring a person to document everything on video. I'm not kidding.

Solange
September 12th, 2008, 10:14 AM
The first person I went to after her told me my hair was sooo damaged and wanted to chop it to about 3 inches. I argued with her for about 10 minutes. I finally just said "Its my hair and I want it cut the way *I* want it cut, if you can't do that I need someone who can."


If I had to argue with a hairdresser at *all*, I wouldn't trust her to trim my hair even if she did eventually agree to do as I say, which is why I think I'd end up walking out of salons several times before actually getting my trim. Almost all comments I get about my hair are positive. A woman came to my workplace once, told me she was a hairdresser and started telling me what she would like to do with my hair, inserting several criticisms in the process. She is specifically the type I'd want to avoid: more interested in what she wants to do with my hair than in what I want done, and acting like she's the ultimate authority on the suject. She suggested a protein treatment to make it shiny (implying it wasn't). Hmmm...I do, in fact, get many compliments on my hair's health and shine. That the ends weren't all even (well, that does tend to happen with knee-length hair...). No mention of course of the near absence of split ends. Then she spoke of layers, and changed her mind because "my hair doesn't look thick enough for them". Thaaaanks! And that would be three insults from a complete stranger.

Nes
September 12th, 2008, 10:24 AM
I would say that in this kind of situation, the more prepared one is the better. So having a witness/written agreement/video of the whole proceedings would surely result in sucess if there were a legal battle.

It would depend on which country you were in whether this would be an issue of bodily harm, suing for emotional distress, violation of contract or defective goods/services.

I'm terrified of hairdressers like some are scared of the dentist to be honest. This isn't a hairdresser-bashing thing, I know that some are wonderful but I live in fear of something like this happening. One inch quite often seems to be 3-5 inches in hairdressers minds!

I need a trim very soon and i'm putting my faith in the George Michael salon in London. I shall be armed with a contract and a ruler...

Nes x

ChloeDharma
September 12th, 2008, 11:17 AM
I would say that in this kind of situation, the more prepared one is the better. So having a witness/written agreement/video of the whole proceedings would surely result in sucess if there were a legal battle.

It would depend on which country you were in whether this would be an issue of bodily harm, suing for emotional distress, violation of contract or defective goods/services.

I'm terrified of hairdressers like some are scared of the dentist to be honest. This isn't a hairdresser-bashing thing, I know that some are wonderful but I live in fear of something like this happening. One inch quite often seems to be 3-5 inches in hairdressers minds!

I need a trim very soon and i'm putting my faith in the George Michael salon in London. I shall be armed with a contract and a ruler...

Nes x

Nes i wouldn't worry too much about the GM salon, first they will understand your hair goals (or be FAR more likely to) than your average fashion driven salon. But also they have a reputation to maintain among longhairs, maybe mention this place and how you are involved in the online longhair scene....hinting that if they took more than you want you wont hesitate to muddy their name. Maybe along the lines of how you are looking forward to posting a review raving about them?

As for legal stuff, well if in that scenario a person couldn't sue or whatever then i give up totally!

heidi w.
September 12th, 2008, 11:34 AM
Small claims court.
The licensing board of that state may consider the situation (especially if you prevail in a court case) and examine revoking the license...not likely/doesn't often happen, but it's an option to explore.

If you have witnesses, the case becomes more compelling. Best if this fictional situation were to occur you & witness immediately call over the manager and make the problem known AT THAT PRECISE TIME.

You would have to sue for the cost, any tip (like you would leave one!), you could be sure to check the box for suing for the cost of filing fees (if you don't the judge can't consider awarding it), and check the box garnishing wages or whatever those forms are... because

even if you win in Small Claims, you then have to pursue them on your own (unless you can garnish wages) to collect.

It's harder in Small Claims (in most US small claims courts) to get an award for emotional damages. Small Claims tends to prefer proof of costs lost: wages/hours, visits to doctors, costs incurred along the way -- and to see receipts, and hear from witnesses.

It's not fun to do such cases. It takes up time, money and energy, and everyone thinks they'll win.

Judges rule according to laws available, and not so much on the morality or ethics of a situation, per se.

heidi w.

darl_in1
September 12th, 2008, 12:16 PM
It could be argued that if the person asked for 1 inch to be trimmed, then why did they not stop them from trimming 30? There's a BIG difference between 1 inch and 30 - so much so that you couldn't possibly not notice as they were about to commence cutting surely? Same with 20 or even 10 inches. Any less than that and I wonder if a court would consider it that much of a hardship?

Solange
September 12th, 2008, 01:13 PM
It could be argued that if the person asked for 1 inch to be trimmed, then why did they not stop them from trimming 30? There's a BIG difference between 1 inch and 30 - so much so that you couldn't possibly not notice as they were about to commence cutting surely? Same with 20 or even 10 inches. Any less than that and I wonder if a court would consider it that much of a hardship?


It only takes a second for that first cut, though. Once the first cut is made, the damage is done, as it would leave a gap on one side of the hair that is much shorter. You can't actually see the hairdresser if he/she is in back of you. Mind you, I did go rather extreme with the 30 inches, but even 5-10 inches shorter than requested can be very disheartening, as has been observed here many times.

getoffmyskittle
September 12th, 2008, 02:29 PM
I think you should learn to trim your own hair and quit worrying about it. :wink:

Reptilia
September 12th, 2008, 02:31 PM
Based on some of the stories of heard of people winning, I have no doubt that something could be done!

psycho
September 12th, 2008, 03:00 PM
I'm sure if it were on paper one could win, though for how much who knows? You may only get market rate for the hair...my hair was appraised at (yes, I know someone who used to do that...it might be a little different now, it's been a while) $150 per pound. Think about that a minute...all of my tailbone-length hair weighs around 10-15 pounds and it's pretty thick, we'll round it to 40 inches for simplicity's sake. Now say someone cut off half of my hair; 20 inches of hard-earned growth. With those figures it'd weigh around 5-7 pounds, for a grand total of up to $1,050 for...how many years of growth?

In places where it's considered assault on a person I'm sure you could get more, or if you specifically stipulated what the maximum damages would be if it wasn't to your specifications in the contract, but could you ever really put a price on your hair?

The only time I've really had a problem (because I avoid beauticians like the plague) was last November. My "sister" was in cosmetology school and had to work on her birthday, so my mom and her mom booked her whole day. I had lost my hair scissors some time before and was really getting tired of people telling me I needed a trim (anyone consider how rude that is anyway?) so I reluctantly allowed a trim and a scalp massage, stipulating two inches to be cut off. She ended up taking seven inches.

Since she's practically family and my hair grows fast (it's all back now) I just picked on her for a few months about how short my hair was...it was almost back up to mid-back! If she hadn't been family, I may have been the one charged for bodily assault by time I got out of there :p

Darkhorse1
September 12th, 2008, 03:16 PM
I believe that would be suable---1 inch vs 30 is a huge difference. However, 1 inch vs 5 inches? Most hair dressers who cut long hair show you before they cut, at least in my area. I believe that did stem from a law suit in which a woman with very long hair had much more cut than she wanted, and she sued and won a huge claim. That was ages ago, but as a result, hair dressers are being safe.

soprano
September 12th, 2008, 03:21 PM
It could be argued that if the person asked for 1 inch to be trimmed, then why did they not stop them from trimming 30? There's a BIG difference between 1 inch and 30 - so much so that you couldn't possibly not notice as they were about to commence cutting surely? Same with 20 or even 10 inches. Any less than that and I wonder if a court would consider it that much of a hardship?

I must agree with this. A few years back a hairdresser *did* take off about 6 more inches than I requested. Ever since then I have demonstrated the length with my hands held out (I want this much taken off) or against a "landmark" on my body (hands on hipbone, "I want it to be this long") and watched him or her like a hawk. When one hairdresser looked like she was up too high I politely but IMMEDIATELY challenged her on it. She gave me a mirror and swung the chair around so I could see the back, and we had a discussion about exactly where that first cut should fall. If she had not been so reasonable, I would have walked out.

I'm an adult with normal capabilities of observation and speech. If I go into a salon and watch the hairdresser cut my hair too short, well, then, I have only myself to blame.

TheSpottedCow
September 12th, 2008, 03:28 PM
Yes, someone can sue for that. I don't know if you can get an exorbitant amount of money though... Definately back the price of the haircut plus the cost of correcting the problem... I haven't seen someone sue for too much cut but on Judge shows I have seen women come on with pictures showing how their hair was cut incorrectly or damaged by a process and get compensation for the cost of the original cut and the "repair" work done by another stylist.

Judge shows don't seem to be the best examples of normal court cases, but same general idea.

If one could argue that their hair length was of some immense importance to them and that having it cut caused emotional distress than I'm sure you could get more. It would probably be easiest to go that route if your hair has religious significance.

This is not an educated opinion BTW, just my thoughts. Overall, I wouldn't worry THAT much about it. I have had stylists cut way too much before but not 30 inches. Your best bet is to really watch the person cut or have them hold the hair infront of you after they've pinched it between their fingers so you can see if their interpretation of "one inch" is the same as yours.

Beatnik Guy
September 12th, 2008, 03:32 PM
...all of my tailbone-length hair weighs around 10-15 pounds and it's pretty thick
Unless it is really really really really think, I'd suggest you weigh it to check that out. :wink:

Solange
September 12th, 2008, 03:41 PM
Unless it is really really really really think, I'd suggest you weigh it to check that out. :wink:


I'm going to guess she meant ounces, lol.

"I'm not fat, it's all hair weight!" ;O)

darl_in1
September 12th, 2008, 05:23 PM
It only takes a second for that first cut, though. Once the first cut is made, the damage is done, as it would leave a gap on one side of the hair that is much shorter. You can't actually see the hairdresser if he/she is in back of you. Mind you, I did go rather extreme with the 30 inches, but even 5-10 inches shorter than requested can be very disheartening, as has been observed here many times.

Really? Every hairdresser I've ever been to combs and then pulls the hair between their fingers at the point where they intend to cut before actually cutting, giving time to speak up. I've never been to a hairdresser who just wings the scissors into the hair in a second and cuts. You must have been to some crazy hairdressers....no wonder you're nervous!

Honestly, I'm a little uncomfortable with compensation culture. To tell you the truth, I think I'd be upset, but take the view that it's just hair and it will grow back. I'd save the lawsuit for something really serious.

ilovelonghair
September 12th, 2008, 05:36 PM
It actually did happen to a friend of mine :(, she had classic lenght and wanted a few inches off and ended up with hair shorter then waist lenght. That same friend when to another hairdresser (this time a famous salon) a couple of years later for another trim and she said the hairdresser started hacking away (yes indeed hacking!) and she ended up looking like she had been attacked by a lawn mower. They did offer a free new hair cut which she got to get it all done properly, but she ended up with much shorter hair.
I don't think all hair dressers make mistakes like these, but how do you know beforehand which one is good? So I just trim my own hair, or ask my boyfriend to do it and I trim his hair.

darl_in1
September 12th, 2008, 05:43 PM
It actually did happen to a friend of mine :(, she had classic lenght and wanted a few inches off and ended up with hair shorter then waist lenght. That same friend when to another hairdresser (this time a famous salon) a couple of years later for another trim and she said the hairdresser started hacking away (yes indeed hacking!) and she ended up looking like she had been attacked by a lawn mower. They did offer a free new hair cut which she got to get it all done properly, but she ended up with much shorter hair.
I don't think all hair dressers make mistakes like these, but how do you know beforehand which one is good? So I just trim my own hair, or ask my boyfriend to do it and I trim his hair.

How on earth did that happen without her realising? Or did she just feel uncomfortable to speak up at the time? I know that's very common. It happened to my mother just a few weeks ago. She even paid and left the salon without telling them she was unhappy - even when the hairdresser said "oh..it's very short". She had short hair to start with though.

Elenna
September 12th, 2008, 06:05 PM
Hairdressers and hair length is an on-going conversation here.

I'd take a photograph of the hair before and after as evidence. And record the hairdresser & client conversation on paper. But any legal recompense would not equal the loss of hair length.

You can't be too careful around hairdressers. But you need to clarify the amount to be cut before the hair cut. I fired my old hairdresser because she wouldn't listen to my request for hair length and careful combing.

Hairdressers are trained to "style" hair. Plus they have to sell products.

susiemw
September 12th, 2008, 06:07 PM
...about hairdressers that do their own thing regardless of the customers' instructions? Here's a scenario: A very long haired woman goes to a salon and asks for one inch to be trimmed off the very ends of her hair. She is very insistent that they cut off no more, no matter if they think her ends are thin, damaged and could use a much bigger trim. Let's say she brought a witness or recorded this conversation with the hairdresser's assent that she would only take off one inch. Nonetheless, one big chop and thirty inches of hair end up on the ground. Could the customer sue for emotional distress? A longhair's identity is often so closely tied in with their hair that this could be nothing short of traumatic, but could legal action be taken?




first, you can sue anyone for anything, it doesn't have to have any grounds, all you have to do is find a lawyer to take the case....

and I actually had this happen to me when I was 14.
I went in for my first (and last one for decades) hair trim.

when I went in, I had hair to my knees. I told her to take one or at the most 2 inches off. it was tail bone length when I left.. .my mother was furious.

Of course, I was 14 and stupid and didn't even realize what she had done at first. My hair was so heavy it felt the same, and she didn't show me my hair in the mirror at the end.

That woman should have been shot.

Susan

susiemw
September 12th, 2008, 06:18 PM
It could be argued that if the person asked for 1 inch to be trimmed, then why did they not stop them from trimming 30? There's a BIG difference between 1 inch and 30 - so much so that you couldn't possibly not notice as they were about to commence cutting surely? Same with 20 or even 10 inches. Any less than that and I wonder if a court would consider it that much of a hardship?

That isn't true. see my post above.
If you have hair that is very long, you can't see where they are placing their scissors... and it's too late after they snip.

and even if you notice very quickly... if they've already hacked off a chunk of your hair, there isn't a lot ot be done unless you want to walk around with your hair missing a huge chunk.

Susan

psycho
September 12th, 2008, 07:09 PM
Unless it is really really really really think, I'd suggest you weigh it to check that out. :wink:

I have weighed it, that's how I know ;)

Bear in mind a lot of that is oil weight, I keep it pretty well-oiled and it's somewhere in the vicinity of 5" ponytail circumference (mental note: must re-measure :p)...I'm really not sure all the factors that make it so heavy but my theory is that fine hairs a) compact more and b) can hold more oil weight.

Makes my point, I think, because I know a lot of people's hair weighs less and so if a case went the "market value" route it would be even less compensation.

Dianyla
September 12th, 2008, 07:58 PM
Think about that a minute...all of my tailbone-length hair weighs around 10-15 pounds and it's pretty thick,


I have weighed it, that's how I know ;)

Bear in mind a lot of that is oil weight, I keep it pretty well-oiled and it's somewhere in the vicinity of 5" ponytail circumference (mental note: must re-measure :p)...
Are you sure you didn't mean ounces not pounds? :hmm:

I have quite a lot of thick heavy hair myself, and mine only weighs somewhere around 12 ounces dry. You would have to put several pints of oil on your hair to get it up to the 10-15 pound range... :ponder:

psycho
September 12th, 2008, 08:16 PM
Are you sure you didn't mean ounces not pounds? :hmm:

I have quite a lot of thick heavy hair myself, and mine only weighs somewhere around 12 ounces dry. You would have to put several pints of oil on your hair to get it up to the 10-15 pound range... :ponder:

How have you been weighing it? The first time I had it weighed was by the person who assessed my hair's value, it was mid-back at the time (almost smack-dab in the middle between BSL and hip-length) and weighed in at 8lbs (yes, I'm sure it's pounds, not ounces ;) ) and the second time it was about an inch shorter than it is now, but the weighing was done at home and it weighed just over 12lbs.

Both times it was done with a digital baby scale, not sure what brand either one was but the second one is the scale the "best beginnings" RN takes around to houses with her (she thought I was exaggerating the weight too :p).

I'm not sure what average hair weight is, the only other person whose hair I've ever been able to see weighed was my "sister's" (not Gem, who is my real sister, but a girl we were raised with who is our pseudo-sister) that went on the scales after it had been cut off her head (about 2 1/2 feet of hair :cry:) and it was just about 4 1/2 lbs. Judging from the responses here, maybe we're just abnormal :confused:

Oooh, and I have a specific measurement for my guessed thickness before, it had been a long time since I measured it and I wasn't sure what it's at now, but just measured in at 5 1/4" :D...that made my day, quite a bit more than last time it was measured.

SarieQ
September 12th, 2008, 09:06 PM
I've had plenty of times that I've gone for a 1 inch trim and ended up with 4 to 5 inches or deep layers! Once a hairdresser I'd been to before and liked wanted to cut more bangs on me. I had a small fringe and wanted to leave it like that---told her no more bangs, just to trim the ones I had. She also wanted to cut a bunch of length off too, but I said just an inch. Well, I didn't know she was a psycho control freak and thought she's done what I asked because of the way she styled it. The next day, I washed and went to style my hair myself--there was a handful section on top of my head where she'd just hacked it. I had no layering before then either. This new short section was literally just grabbed and hacked! It didn't even match the length of the bangs! I went back to the salon and the manager was acting as though I'd done this to my hair and was trying to blame it on her! I ended up cutting my hair myself at nape length to get the hacked part closer to the same length as the rest of my hair!

So, definately a witness should be there! Also, never let them style your hair before you have a chance to look at it real good and run your hands through it to be sure it's what you'd wanted! BTW, I never ever will let anyone else cut my hair as long as I live--never again!

Peggy E.
September 12th, 2008, 10:05 PM
I can't imagine what would lead to such an openly vicious attack - the promise of a one-inch trim then the thirty-inch hacking. The hairdresser would have had to be really PO'd for some reason....

It's probably a pretty far-fetched scenario, but all things considered, it should fall under the heading of "assault" possibly even "assault with a deadly weapon," considering the use of the scissors in the attack.

Really, Solange, I wouldn't worry too much about this happening to you. If you find yourself needing to go to a professional hairdresser, ask your friends and relatives to recommend someone who is known not to be carrying any grudges against long haired women!

Solange
September 13th, 2008, 04:14 AM
Really? Every hairdresser I've ever been to combs and then pulls the hair between their fingers at the point where they intend to cut before actually cutting, giving time to speak up. I've never been to a hairdresser who just wings the scissors into the hair in a second and cuts. You must have been to some crazy hairdressers....no wonder you're nervous!

Honestly, I'm a little uncomfortable with compensation culture. To tell you the truth, I think I'd be upset, but take the view that it's just hair and it will grow back. I'd save the lawsuit for something really serious.


Actually, I have never been to a hairdresser, so I can only base this on the many, many "horror stories" I've seen. I definitely got the impression that people have lost a lot of hair in spite of specific instructions, and were unaware of it until it was too late, so I figure it must be possible, though 30 inches was an extreme example. I'm afraid I can't think of it as "just hair, it will grow back". You're probably one of the few longhairs who would be capable of thinking this way. Since I doubt my hair would grow as fast now as it did years ago, and I'm not even sure I could ever reach anywhere close to knee length again, I would consider this a loss either permanently or at least on a long term basis of something that's very much part of my identity. I think people sue for absolutely ridiculous reasons: I didn't know eating a lot of fast-food would be bad for my health, my drink was too hot, etc.), but willfully/maliciously robbing someone of something they worked for a very long time is serious enough, in my opinion.

minkstole
September 13th, 2008, 07:16 AM
Really? Every hairdresser I've ever been to combs and then pulls the hair between their fingers at the point where they intend to cut before actually cutting, giving time to speak up. I've never been to a hairdresser who just wings the scissors into the hair in a second and cuts. You must have been to some crazy hairdressers....no wonder you're nervous!

Honestly, I'm a little uncomfortable with compensation culture. To tell you the truth, I think I'd be upset, but take the view that it's just hair and it will grow back. I'd save the lawsuit for something really serious.

I agree with this post 100%, from the assesment of how hair is cut to the "you have to pay me" culture - it makes me very very queasy.

Audio-video-taping? Hairdressers deserving to get shot? Holy hell!
If you consider the salon to be hostile ground, you donīt go! Very simple, I think.
BTW I think most hairdressers are interested in repeat customers, and they only get those by making them happy - not by having them leave in tears.

darl_in1
September 13th, 2008, 09:21 AM
How have you been weighing it? The first time I had it weighed was by the person who assessed my hair's value, it was mid-back at the time (almost smack-dab in the middle between BSL and hip-length) and weighed in at 8lbs (yes, I'm sure it's pounds, not ounces ;) ) and the second time it was about an inch shorter than it is now, but the weighing was done at home and it weighed just over 12lbs.

Both times it was done with a digital baby scale, not sure what brand either one was but the second one is the scale the "best beginnings" RN takes around to houses with her (she thought I was exaggerating the weight too :p).

I'm not sure what average hair weight is, the only other person whose hair I've ever been able to see weighed was my "sister's" (not Gem, who is my real sister, but a girl we were raised with who is our pseudo-sister) that went on the scales after it had been cut off her head (about 2 1/2 feet of hair :cry:) and it was just about 4 1/2 lbs. Judging from the responses here, maybe we're just abnormal :confused:

Oooh, and I have a specific measurement for my guessed thickness before, it had been a long time since I measured it and I wasn't sure what it's at now, but just measured in at 5 1/4" :D...that made my day, quite a bit more than last time it was measured.

10 -12lbs? good grief, how do you hold you're head up? That's nearly a stone. I imagine you would have neck strain and other complications from updos if that was accurate.

I have to agree with others that you are mistaken. perhaps whoever weighed it for you made a mistake? Are you sure you weighed just your hair and didn't rest your head on the scales?

My hair is over 5 1/2 inches thick and was about mid-butt length (44") when I did cut it and I can assure you it weighed ounces not lbs. Nowhere near lbs. 10 -12 lb hair sounds impossible to me.

anna1850
September 13th, 2008, 11:23 AM
I have weighed it, that's how I know ;)

Bear in mind a lot of that is oil weight, I keep it pretty well-oiled and it's somewhere in the vicinity of 5" ponytail circumference (mental note: must re-measure :p)...I'm really not sure all the factors that make it so heavy but my theory is that fine hairs a) compact more and b) can hold more oil weight.

Even if it's oil weight, that can't be right. I assume oil weighs about as much as water and a litre of water weighs 1kg (2.2 pounds). I'm with the others, it's not possible for hair to weigh that much.


As for the main point of this thread, I think the best way is to sue is to go for breach of contract. I'm not a lawyer yet but I'm starting my GDL in a week's time. You could sue in tort instead as they would have been negligent but one would have to prove a duty of care which you don't have to bother with in contract law. You would only need tort if, for example, your friend told them how much to cut off your hair and then they didn't listen to them as the contract would be with your friend and not you.

Beatnik Guy
September 13th, 2008, 01:15 PM
I think you should learn to trim your own hair and quit worrying about it. :wink:
Skitts gives good advice here, Sol. Unless I'm mistooken, nicolezoie has posted her guidance for self trimming super long hair in several social groups. Try looking here (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/group.php?groupid=24&pp=10).

Karen Marie Shelton
September 13th, 2008, 05:01 PM
Actually, I have never been to a hairdresser, so I can only base this on the many, many "horror stories" I've seen. I definitely got the impression that people have lost a lot of hair in spite of specific instructions, and were unaware of it until it was too late, so I figure it must be possible, though 30 inches was an extreme example. I'm afraid I can't think of it as "just hair, it will grow back". You're probably one of the few longhairs who would be capable of thinking this way. Since I doubt my hair would grow as fast now as it did years ago, and I'm not even sure I could ever reach anywhere close to knee length again, I would consider this a loss either permanently or at least on a long term basis of something that's very much part of my identity. I think people sue for absolutely ridiculous reasons: I didn't know eating a lot of fast-food would be bad for my health, my drink was too hot, etc.), but willfully/maliciously robbing someone of something they worked for a very long time is serious enough, in my opinion.

Lots of great points here regarding a not too uncommon hair cutting experience.

I actually have been to two different hairdressing academies when I was pursuing a hairdresser's license. One was Paul Mitchell which is a very esteemed academy. I had the longest hair - by fair - in the school and you have no idea how many times they tried to cut it all off. I kept it up in a bun at all times to minimize temptation and refused all offers of cuts, hair color, chemical treatments...etc.,

At one point I was asked to be a hair model for a complicated long braid. The instructor had me on stage and because my hair does not end in a straight line, told the audience of other students that regardless of what their hair customer asks for...it is their job as hairdressers to make sure the hair is a straight line at the bottom. Never mind how many inches they had to chomp off.

I was horrified, embarrassed and saddened by the experience even though the teacher did say my hair was in great condition, he hated that it was not a straight line across.

Due to that experience and others I became a Paul Mitchell dropout (left with my hair intact) and went to a natural hair academy instead where I learned natural hair care, braiding, updos and other "long hair friendly" hairdressing techniques. We actually had classes in long hair care where again I was the model.

The difference? This time the teacher talked about the importance of making the customer happy and never ever cutting more than the client wanted.

As far as legal actions....it would depend on the country and the laws but here in Texas you have to prove there was some sort of suffering or loss as a result of the action.

Which means you would have to quantify suffering as a result of too many inches cut off. How would you quantify that? Did you lose a job as a result? It could be tricky to prove.

Best bet, as so nicely put here above, make sure you find a hairdresser that is long hair friendly and be sure they are extremely clear on how much you want cut.
Or have a legal contract with you before they start to cut that stipulates exactly how many inches they can cut and list the penalties for exceeding that amount.

Electronika
September 13th, 2008, 08:49 PM
Chances are that you would first would have to have an agreement or contract in writing that would have to be signed by all parties - The person getting their hair cut, the witness and the hairdresser.

If the hairdresser failed to comply with that then you could probably sue, but the costs of that alone would be really expensive.

Thats just what I think though.

I think thats terrible though and a person should be able to sue for any wrong doing to anothers hair, especially a person being put in such a trusting situation.

Nat242
September 13th, 2008, 09:40 PM
I agree with this post 100%, from the assesment of how hair is cut to the "you have to pay me" culture - it makes me very very queasy.

Audio-video-taping? Hairdressers deserving to get shot? Holy hell!
If you consider the salon to be hostile ground, you donīt go! Very simple, I think.
BTW I think most hairdressers are interested in repeat customers, and they only get those by making them happy - not by having them leave in tears.

I'm with you and Skitts. If you must go to the hairdresser to get your hair cut, and your hair is too long to see each snip, take a friend with you, which is pretty common...however, you should just communicate precisely what you want to the stylist, that you want them to check before they make the first snip; if they don't seem to be taking you seriously, leave. If I was in their position, I wouldn't agree to be video-taped whilst doing my job - especially given the low rate of pay most hairdressers are on.

And yes, I'd be pretty upset if a hairdresser gave me an awful haircut, but I'm not sure I'd take them to court and/or seek to destroy their livelihood. Remember, we longhairs are an anomaly.

I've had bad haircuts, but that's before I knew how to ask for what I wanted (I didn't understand what razoring was, thus I couldn't ask for them *not* to do it).

susiemw
September 14th, 2008, 12:37 AM
Hairdressers deserving to get shot? Holy hell!.

I didn't mean literally.
However, when a person has screwed up at their job
that bad, some acknowledgement and an apology
would always go a long way towards mending fences.
when that isn't forthcoming what you get is an angry
customer. which in turn, results in a lot of bad word of
mouth publicity.

Susan

Dianyla
September 14th, 2008, 01:18 AM
:p
How have you been weighing it? The first time I had it weighed was by the person who assessed my hair's value, it was mid-back at the time (almost smack-dab in the middle between BSL and hip-length) and weighed in at 8lbs (yes, I'm sure it's pounds, not ounces ;) ) and the second time it was about an inch shorter than it is now, but the weighing was done at home and it weighed just over 12lbs.
I weighed my hair on a kitchen scale, being careful to put most of my hair in the bucket without leaning on the scale with my head. Here's a picture showing it at 12 ounces (3/4 pounds):

http://diane.rokatek.com/hair/hairweighin.jpg

I'm sorry, I just can't quite believe 12 pounds. That's like an overweight cat, or a loaded sack of groceries, or 1.5 gallons of water, or... :confused:

minkstole
September 14th, 2008, 01:38 AM
I didn't mean literally.
However, when a person has screwed up at their job
that bad, some acknowledgement and an apology
would always go a long way towards mending fences.
when that isn't forthcoming what you get is an angry
customer. which in turn, results in a lot of bad word of
mouth publicity.

Susan

I know you said it in jest, affect, or whatever, but combined with the other suggestions here, this thread just screams weirdness.

If I go a cosmetologist to have my brows waxed and she gives me unsightly skinny "no brows", will I be upset? Absolutely. I might even cry because I know that I will have to live with this ghastliness in the middle of my face for weeks/months on end, until they are grown in. Will I sue her? Hells to the no! Will I videotape her next time? Are you kidding??!! I will tell her that my brows are not looking the way I want them to and what does she think can be done about it? Afterwards I will either A) stay with her, but make sure she understands what I mean, B) find someone else, or C) do it myself.

Many posts in this thread reek of paranoia and mistrust, and I do not think for a minute that if you go into a salon with that sort of attitude, that the person cutting your hair can possibly make you happy - thereīs bound to be something wrong.

Solange
September 14th, 2008, 12:08 PM
I know you said it in jest, affect, or whatever, but combined with the other suggestions here, this thread just screams weirdness.

If I go a cosmetologist to have my brows waxed and she gives me unsightly skinny "no brows", will I be upset? Absolutely. I might even cry because I know that I will have to live with this ghastliness in the middle of my face for weeks/months on end, until they are grown in. Will I sue her? Hells to the no! Will I videotape her next time? Are you kidding??!! I will tell her that my brows are not looking the way I want them to and what does she think can be done about it? Afterwards I will either A) stay with her, but make sure she understands what I mean, B) find someone else, or C) do it myself.

Many posts in this thread reek of paranoia and mistrust, and I do not think for a minute that if you go into a salon with that sort of attitude, that the person cutting your hair can possibly make you happy - thereīs bound to be something wrong.


There's quite a difference between not being happy with an eyebrow wax and a hairdresser purposely disregarding your request. I'm not talking about an accident. Thirty inches shorter was an exaggeration, granted, but comparing losing many inches (YEARS' worth) to a a few weeks of being dissatisfied with your eyebrows is an exaggeration in the other direction. If *my* exaggeration were to be taken literally, my identity as a longhair would be stolen from me purposely. It would take a long time for me to feel like myself again. Maybe I would never succeed in having my hair as long again, now that I'm older. That is a big deal. I've had thin strips of skin taken off my legs while getting them waxed and had unsightly red areas on them for over a month. I did not make a big deal out of it. If I asked for a one-inch trim and had 1 1/2 or 2 inches cut off instead, again, I would not freak out. Biiiig difference.

Neysa
September 14th, 2008, 12:31 PM
I started self trimming when I was 15 because of this. I went to a hairdressers and asked for a trim. I was just about sitting on my hair at that time, but I was about 10, so I have no inch measurement. The sitting on it was driving me insane, and headaches were regular occurrence, so my mom fairly insisted. The lady took all of my beautiful, blonde, straight hair, and hacked it above my shoulders. She then proceeded to give me a layered haircut that was 4inches all over my head. When it started to growing out I waited until the shortest was at a nice happy length and cut it myself. It took nearly another 8 years before I let a hairdresser touch my hair. I've given up again, because they decided to put layers in my hair again that have caused some serious snarls.

anna1850
September 14th, 2008, 01:18 PM
It actually did happen to a friend of mine :(, she had classic lenght and wanted a few inches off and ended up with hair shorter then waist lenght.


I actually had this happen to me when I was 14.
I went in for my first (and last one for decades) hair trim.

when I went in, I had hair to my knees. I told her to take one or at the most 2 inches off. it was tail bone length when I left.. .my mother was furious.



The instructor had me on stage and because my hair does not end in a straight line, told the audience of other students that regardless of what their hair customer asks for...it is their job as hairdressers to make sure the hair is a straight line at the bottom. Never mind how many inches they had to chomp off.


I know you said it in jest, affect, or whatever, but combined with the other suggestions here, this thread just screams weirdness.

If I go a cosmetologist to have my brows waxed and she gives me unsightly skinny "no brows", will I be upset? Absolutely. I might even cry because I know that I will have to live with this ghastliness in the middle of my face for weeks/months on end, until they are grown in. Will I sue her? Hells to the no! Will I videotape her next time? Are you kidding??!! I will tell her that my brows are not looking the way I want them to and what does she think can be done about it? Afterwards I will either A) stay with her, but make sure she understands what I mean, B) find someone else, or C) do it myself.

Many posts in this thread reek of paranoia and mistrust, and I do not think for a minute that if you go into a salon with that sort of attitude, that the person cutting your hair can possibly make you happy - there´s bound to be something wrong.

Although suing a hairdresser may seem extreme it should serve to raise the awareness of all hairdressers that they have been asked to do something by the customer and should not just do what they want to their hair as they know best. Clearly from the posts I quoted above this sort of thing does happen sometimes and some hairdressers have a bad attitude towards long hair. My local hairdressers seem fine and have always been extra careful about checking with me how much I wanted cut off (although I haven't been to one since I started growing out my hair so obviously my experience will be different from someone with say, knee-length hair, which I assume quite a few hairdressers would think of as 'too long' and 'disgusting' and should be cut off).

I'm not saying anyone should sue a hairdresser but if the few who do want to ignore the customer's wishes were aware of the consequences then maybe they would think twice before ignoring them next time.

The eyebrow waxer example is different in that they are specifically going against what they were asked to do. For example, if you went to your brow waxer and just asked her to get rid of the bit between your eyebrows (where a monobrow would go) and you didn't want the eyebrow any thinner and then they decided that they thought your eyebrows were too thick and would just make them thinner anyway then that would be unnaceptable. If you ask for an inch off and they take off 2" then one can put that down to human error just as a waxer can take too much off by accident but asking for an inch and they take 30" is deliberately ignoring the wishes of the customer because the hairdresser thinks that their opinion of what would suit them is more important than what the customer asked for.

Anyway, as I said I'm sure most hairdressers are absolutely fine and don't wish to upset their customers. I have nothing against hairdressers in general and I think they normally make people happier. But having said that they may have never seen such long hair before and are very used to giving shorter, stylish cuts and there are always a few bad ones who are very arrogant and never listen to people. I'm not sure whether to go get my hair cut professionally or just get a family member to do it when my hair gets long enough, but I shouldn't have to worry about that for a while.

Chromis
September 14th, 2008, 02:39 PM
I agree with this post 100%, from the assesment of how hair is cut to the "you have to pay me" culture - it makes me very very queasy.

Audio-video-taping? Hairdressers deserving to get shot? Holy hell!
If you consider the salon to be hostile ground, you donīt go! Very simple, I think.
BTW I think most hairdressers are interested in repeat customers, and they only get those by making them happy - not by having them leave in tears.

I can honestly say that I have *never* had a good haircut or a hairdresser that has done as I requested. Every. singe. one. of them has put in layers, bangs and cut more off than I wanted. (These were all forced trips when I was younger but my mother hadn't said anything to them about bangs or layers either) They were so full of themselves that I'm sure they just assumed that I'd be so knocked out by what they had done that I would swoon in agreement with how much better their judgment was or some such nonsense. I'm sure there are good ones out there and the ones here on LHC aren't like this but sure as hell am not taking any chances!

Aries_jb
September 14th, 2008, 03:40 PM
Many of us here have our own horror stories about hairdressers, which is sad. Just like any other place of business, we should be able to walk in and get what we want. For some reason, that just doesn't happen with many of us. As a curly, I know too well that hairdressers often don't understand my hairtype and have had my share of cuts come out shorter than I wanted.

Would I sue over it? No. Not because I wouldn't have a case, but because the process just doesn't seem worth it to me. Even if I won, what would I get out of it besides money and a judge agreeing that I have been wronged? It doesn't win me an apology from the hairdresser, nor does it win my hair back. Ultimately, I will still walk around with a haircut I didn't want and maybe some cash in my pocket.

This is precisely why I don't go to salons for haircuts anymore. I realized long ago that most people do not understand how curly hair works (i.e. longer when wet, that even when you cut it dry, it will still be shorter than you think because there is less weight to pull the curl down, etc.), much less how to help me maintain the ends without sacrificing length.

I don't believe that hairdressers are vindictive or out to harm anyone. In my case, I see it as ignorance. I almost felt bad for them as I watched them style my hair and try to mimic the same soft defined curls I came with, only to fail miserably. They seem so embarrassed and I can see that they are realizing that they had no business attempting to work with my hair in the first place, whether to cut it or otherwise.

My mom is the best hairdresser I've ever had. Any bad haircut I've had in recent years has been on account of me and my instructions, not because of her, and she doesn't even have a license :).

minkstole
September 14th, 2008, 05:29 PM
Hey man, I stand by my eyebrow analogy.
Eyebrows are difficult to hide as they are in the middle of the face, they take forever to grow out and sometimes they don´t even grow out at all. Getting it right is crucial. If you don´t get the comparison, then you don´t get it.

I´m clearly in the minority here, but I will stand by my suggestion: if you don´t trust your hairdresser, get another one or do it yourself. Videotaping, writing up contracts, suing, etc, is not the way to go IMO.

Aries_jb
September 15th, 2008, 02:03 PM
I get your analogy minkstole. I read somewhere that you have to be really careful with eyebrows because they are delicate and sometimes once plucked, the hair does not grow back with the same thickness, if at all. I don't know whether that's true or not. Plus, as you get older the hair gets sparser, so there's even more reason to be careful. At least with hair, you can pull it back, depending on the severity of the cut. Either way, I think the point is the same: You are not getting what you asked for and still are expected to pay for it.

truepeacenik
September 15th, 2008, 02:07 PM
I'm thinking I saw something like this on one of the judge shows (laundromats- my window on pop culture).
I think it was a case of a big difference, and they got a refund and some damages.
BUT I think this was a model or someone who made a living off her looks in some way.

When I first read the OP, I thought Better Business Bureau!

truepeacenik
September 15th, 2008, 02:12 PM
Judges rule according to laws available, and not so much on the morality or ethics of a situation, per se.


right. They are judges, not ethicists or moralists, in theory anyway.

catekat
September 15th, 2008, 03:33 PM
That would be a terrible senario. Legal action probably could be taken. I'm no lawyer, but it seems any situation can be taken to court nowadays.

darl_in1
September 16th, 2008, 03:20 AM
I'm not suggesting it doesn't happen. It has happened to me on many occasions.However, I have to say, it has always been due to one of two things - my failure to properly communicate what I wanted (in hindisight, I can clearly see what I said and how the misunderstanding occured) or my failure to speak up. I can't even remember how many times I've sat in the chair thinking "Oh my God, what are they doing" or "that looks too short" etc and felt embarrassed to say anything. These days I have no qualms in speaking up and saying "hold on". I also have a policy of explaining what I want and then having the hairdresser explain it back to me to ensure thay have understood the same thing that I have. I always explain what I want the end result to look like and ask "Is that possible with my hair? - if not tell me now and let's find a solution". This policy of "No surprises" seems to work well for me.

Stevy
September 16th, 2008, 03:29 AM
OK, I just weighed my hair in one hand and my obliging Maine Coon cat in the other (I wouldn't dare trying to pick up the other cat with just one hand, but this one's a sweet-natured kitty) and I don't have anything like ten pounds of hair. I doubt my hair weighs one pound! I'm going to be a lot more sympathetic in future when iii people complain about updo headaches!

As for the hairdresser scenario, I don't know that I'd jump straight to suing if that happened, but I'd certainly complain to the salon's manager in very strong terms, and if I didn't get satisfaction there I'd go to a consumer bureau.

Then again, I never go to salons anyway...

ljkforu
September 16th, 2008, 03:32 AM
I suggest taking a friend with you to watch what is being done to you. Also, use a line of masking tape or a rubber band to mark what you intend to happen. (Have your friend or family member set the guide line in place for you. I have had people take off 6 inches when I said 1 or 2 and I think this is what I will do in the future. I think that some hair dressers find our long hair unfashionable and try to take matters into their own unauthorized hands.

Miuku
September 21st, 2008, 11:04 AM
About quantification:

Whether you can win a lawsuit like that, depends on the jurisdiction, but I think the physical damage can be quantified as the cost of all the natural hair extensions of the same length and thickness that the person would theoretically have to get until the hair grows out: the hair itself, the work, and the compensation for the time spent on it. Now, if the hair was, say, 50 inches originally, and the hairdresser has cut 30 off, that would make it 50-inch natural extensions for about 5 years. I am not sure how much extensions cost if you renew them all the time and how much hair can be reused, etc., but I suspect the final bill would be in many tens of thousands of euros/dollars.

And emotional distress on top of that, of course. :)