Btms (Behentrimonium Methosulfate)

[pariate]

Hi :)

So, what's the gossip on BTMS?! I want to make my own cone-free conditioner and I hear that BTMS is a good conditioning emulsifier. Anything I should know before I put this stuff on my hair?! Does it cause cone-like build up problems? Anything nasty about it at all?

Look forward to hearing the lowdown... :D

[Flaxen]

It's found in a lot of products for curly hair (Jessicurl and others at NC.com). I haven't cared for any of the BTMS based conditioners I've tried. They didn't seem to moisturize at all. Don't base your decision on what I say, though. My hair is usually quite contrary. :lol:

[pariate]

LOL. Thanks Flaxen ;) The recipe I was thinking of using is this -

Water 61.5%
Glycerin 15.4%
Jojoba oil 15.4%
Honey 7.7%

Any thoughts from anyone would be welcome!

This is kind of cobbled together from lots of basic conditioner recipes I've come across. To that recipe I need to add an emulsifier to mix the oil phase and water phase, right? :confused: That's why I was wondering about BTMS. I also need to figure out what percentage of preservative to use, but I'll think about that later. Even this super basic recipe is scary to me!

[justmyself]

The Herbarie http://www.theherbarie.com/The-Formulary-p-7.html has some great recipes to get you started. Some of the recipes have cones so if you are cone free you can easily sub out the cone in a recipe for coconut or jojoba oil.

[birdiefu]

LOL. Thanks Flaxen ;) The recipe I was thinking of using is this -

Water 61.5%
Glycerin 15.4%
Jojoba oil 15.4%
Honey 7.7%

Any thoughts from anyone would be welcome!

This is kind of cobbled together from lots of basic conditioner recipes I've come across. To that recipe I need to add an emulsifier to mix the oil phase and water phase, right? :confused: That's why I was wondering about BTMS. I also need to figure out what percentage of preservative to use, but I'll think about that later. Even this super basic recipe is scary to me!


I replied in your other thread, but found this one too :). Your oil % seems pretty high for a regular condish- you may get oily hair from that with usual use. You are correct that you will have a water and oil phase, and often-times a 3rd phase for things such as fragrance/EO/preservatives. Check the recommendations on your preservative for usage rate, and make sure everything is as clean as possible and you 'heat and hold' your phases to kill off any present bacteria that may be there. When I heat and hold the water phase, I always weigh the whole thing first, then weigh when I'm done- you get some loss from evaporation, so I just add back some distilled water to the original weight.

As far as recipies, there are a ton out there- it also depends on what your hair likes and what you are looking for in a conditioner. here is a recipe I've come up with for a thicker, deeper condish without too many bells and whistles. You can sub out the additives or whatever and just add it to the water % if you don't have/don't want them:

79.55% Water/Aloe juice (I eyeball this, really should determine aloe %)
4% Oils (I like meadowfoam, mowrah butter, and emu)
7% BTMS
0.75% Guar Gum (whisk like a fool as you add this slowly)
5% Glycerin
0.2% Sodium PCA
1.5% Panthenol
1% Optiphen Plus (my preservative of choice- no parabens or formaldehyde releasers)
1% Fragrance/EO (up to 2% if you want stronger smelling)

[pariate]

Thank you Birdiefu :) Hmmmm... Seems like I was a tad enthusiastic with my percentages! lol.

[K_Angel]

I've noticed that BTMS is for conditioning the hair. But I'm not sure I understand what "conditioning" hair really means?

Oils can make the hair more flexible.

Cetyl alcohol is for moisturizing the hair.

Proteins can strengthen the hair.

Cetrimonium chloride detangles hair.

So, BTMS conditions... can someone put that into other words that help me picture what that would be doing, that's different than the above? Sorry if this is a dumb question.

TIA!!! :blossom:

[Norai]

I love btms... it makes my hair super soft and detangles. Pariate, I think you'll find that 15% glycerin is a bit much - and I don't see btms listed in your recipe? :)

[K_Angel]

I love btms... it makes my hair super soft and detangles. Pariate, I think you'll find that 15% glycerin is a bit much - and I don't see btms listed in your recipe? :)
Do you make your own conditioner or is there a commercial product you are referring to?

[Aeren]

I'm using BTMS too. I really like this stuff, it allowed me to make my own conditioner (I tried with other emulsifiers before, but it was disastrous :?). Generally I mix it with Stearamidopropyl dimethylamine : 7 to 10% of BTMS and 1 to 4% of Stearamidopropyl dimethylamine. Sometimes I add also 1 or 2% of Sodium stearoyl lactylate.

I like to try new recipes all the time, I never do the same conditioner twice, but at this moment, I stay close to this recipe :

7% BTMS
2% Stearamidopropyl dimethylamine
20% oils
5% glycerol
2% panthenol
2% silk extract
1% EO
0,5% preservatives
distiled water up to 100%

It makes a creamy and deep conditioner, it's thick, I have to put it in a pot, not in a bottle. I'm very happy with this recipe, but I also made entirely satisfactory conditioner with just BTMS.

For your recipe, I think that 15% glycerin is too much. If I were you I would put only 5% of glycerin and add 10% of BTMS.

[K_Angel]

Yeah, glycerin is not my friend! For some reason in my environment it sucks all the water out of my hair rather than bring water to it!

I'm looking forward to experimenting with BTMS.

How do you heat it up?

[Aeren]

Microwave!

[K_Angel]

How long and how high of a temperature?

[Aeren]

It's hard to say, it depends on the quantities of oil, BTMS... I put it at 700W and check every 20 seconds if the BTMS is melt (about 70°C, 158F). For the aqueous phase I used to touch the container with my hand to verify that the temperature was about the same as the oil/BTMS mix, but now I have a thermometer reserved for this pupose :cheese: (made my life easier, especialy for soap making).

[K_Angel]

Any particular thermometer that works best?

[Aeren]

I use this thermometer http://www.aroma-zone.com/aroma/accessoire_fra.asp?sta=311#thermometre. A digital thermometer is more appropriate (faster and easier to clean), but you can use any thermometer if it can measure from 30 to 200F ;).

[K_Angel]

I have one that is a meat thermometer do you think that will work ok?

Do these temperatures have to be sustained for any amount of time? And if so, how do I do that?

[Lélie]

I suppose a meat thermometer would be ok ... it's pretty much the same.

I wanted to try CO and make my own conditioner (organic condish are very expensive !!)

I'm looking at aroma-zone website to make my own conditioner, and i'm a bit confused, do i really need thermometer, electric blender and special things for bain-marie (double boiler) ?! It's quite expensive and we are moving abroad in 6 months and i'm not sure i'd be able to bring everything. But on the other side, i'd love to try !!

[Aeren]

K_Angel, a meat-thermometer seems ok for me. These temperatures don't have to be sustained, you just need to melt everything.

Lélie, of course you don't have to buy all this stuff. You need 2 bowls and a mini-whisk or a fork. It's very easy to make your conditioner :
- put in the first bowl the btms and oils (and eventualy the conditoner emulsifier)
- put in the second one everything except essential oils (ie water and eventualy glycerin, panthenol, silk extract, inulin, phytokeratin, lactic acid...)
- heat up everyting in a microwave (if you don't like microwave, you can put yours bowls in a casserole with 5cm of boiling water).
- put the content of one bowl in the other one (in one time)
- mix vigorously during 2 minutes
- mix gently every 5 minutes until the mix is lukewarm
- add essential oils, mix and put in your bottle/pot
- your conditioner is ready to use :cheese:

[Lélie]

Thank you Aeren !! :D

So i ordered this morning, i went for thermometer and mini-whisk. I didn't order the bowls because them seems sooooo small !! i'll try to find something else !

[K_Angel]

Aeren: Thanks! I also have a candy thermometer, might be easier to clean than the meat thermometer?

[Aeren]

Lélie, yes they are too small, and you can't put them in the microwave.


K_Angel, do you have a candy thermometer like that (http://z.about.com/d/candy/1/0/h/3/-/-/thermometer.jpg) or like that (http://www.kitchenemporium.com/kitchenemporium/images/pdem511b.jpg)? I think that the second type is more appropriate, but anyway, do as you feel best, I'm sure it will be ok ;).

[K_Angel]

K_Angel, do you have a candy thermometer like that (http://z.about.com/d/candy/1/0/h/3/-/-/thermometer.jpg) or like that (http://www.kitchenemporium.com/kitchenemporium/images/pdem511b.jpg)? I think that the second type is more appropriate, but anyway, do as you feel best, I'm sure it will be ok ;).

Actually, mine is like this:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0000CFQN8/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=284507&s=kitchen

[TheHuman]

I found tons of information on this blog. Might be useful for you too. http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/search/label/hair%20products

[K_Angel]

I found tons of information on this blog. Might be useful for you too. http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.com/search/label/hair%20products
Me too!!!!! Awesome site and she's happy to answer questions!!! I've learned so much!

Thanks for posting the URL!!!!!! :flower:

[K_Angel]

BTMS or BTMS 50?

What's the difference. I bought the BTMS regular because I thought the other contained a humectant and since they seem to backfire on me I didn't want to use it... is there a major difference in the two?

[pdy2kn6]

Hey, Im thinking about buying a conditioner (cone-free) which has Behentrimonium Methosulfate in it, however I am currently on a cone-free/sulfate-free CO routine. Is Behentrimonium Methosulfate considered one of those 'harmful' sulfates people stay away from or is the name just the same?

[K_Angel]

Hey, Im thinking about buying a conditioner (cone-free) which has Behentrimonium Methosulfate in it, however I am currently on a cone-free/sulfate-free CO routine. Is Behentrimonium Methosulfate considered one of those 'harmful' sulfates people stay away from or is the name just the same?
I'm not sure about the chemistry of it, but I don't think they are one in the same. BTMS is a conditioner, not a cleanser.... but I'll ask Celerita's if she can help us with it. :)

[celeritas]

Although there is a sulfate group in behentriumonium methosulfate, but it is not like SLS. Magnesium sulfate - Epsom salts - have a sulfate ion. A sulfate just means something is a salt of sulfuric acid. It is generally used because sulfates are very soluble in water, so it is generally used to make something more soluble in water. (For more fun on sulfates, click here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulfate)!)

SLS (sodium lauryl sulfate) is an anionic or negatively charged surfactant that foams and lathers - it's a detergent type surfactant. BTMS is a cationic or positively charged surfactant that emulsifies and conditions. That's what makes it a conditioner - it is substantive, meaning it adsorbs to your hair strand because your hair is negatively charged, which causes the conditioning action. SLS does not adhere to your hair strand - it removes soils and washes away with rinsing. The only thing they have in common is they both contain the sulfate ion (to help with increased solubility) and we put both on our hair.

[Happymoonlight]

Does anybody know who sell BTMS world wide?

[ratgirldjh]

Has anyone tried using catnip tea as the liquid? And if I try it will I need to add preservative or keep in fridge? I have grapefruit seed extract I could add if I needed to.

[Gulbahar]

Does anybody know who sell BTMS world wide?
I buy it from Aromazone (France). The shipping isn't expensive.


Has anyone tried using catnip tea as the liquid? And if I try it will I need to add preservative or keep in fridge? I have grapefruit seed extract I could add if I needed to.
Grapefruit seed extract itself doesn't have preservative powers - unless it contains chemical presevatives which is often the case. You can definitely use tea but I never do that because I'm not comfortable with the danger of contamination. I would use parabens to keep it fresh because they are safest but many people don't want them in their cosmetics.

[LadyJennifer]

There are several preservatives that do not contain parabens (which are formaldehyde releasors). Potassium sorbate is one I remember offhand. Just look in the "preservative" section of any of the stores linked in this thread. Camden-grey dot com has several to choose from at a decent price.
If you don't want to use a preservative, you could put it in the fridge, or only make a small amount.