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View Full Version : I just had an epiphany ...



sarahthegemini
January 5th, 2014, 08:45 AM
Regarding the recent protein, moisture and coconut oil confusion ... I don't think my hair is highly porous, as I originally suspected. I assumed it was simply b/c my hair seemed to respond well to protein, and I thought it was badly damaged, whereas in actual fact, I trimmed away the majority of heat damage, all that was left was 'weathering' damage so to speak.

So it made me realise, that my hair is more likely to be moderately porous/average porosity. I also realised that despite using only a tiny amount of oil, my hair wasn't really absorbing it completely. Which again, would indicate that my hair isn't overly porous. And if my hair was absorbing some of it, it would thus reduce my porosity, which would make moisturising my hair more difficult, and thus more susceptible to being under-conditioned/over-proteined (this would explain the recent issue)

After doing a single wash w/o a coconut oil pre-wash oiling, and using a very basic conditioner + honey mix to inject some moisture back into my hair, it is A-okay now! Since then, I have washed a 2nd time (w/o the pre-wash oiling) and followed up with my normal rich conditioner with a little protein, and my hair is fine.

Anyway, that's my new revelation! Anyone else had moments like that? And is there any other way I could pre-treat my hair to prevent damage via washing, or do I not need to worry so much about that?

Ms. Littlefish
January 5th, 2014, 08:54 AM
There are tons of oils out there, just not coconut. It's pretty well known that coconut oil can be drying for some. I personally switched because it was causing really bad breakouts around my hair line. I'm going to try Safflower due to its high ceramide content. You could also just try CWC. Putting a light conditioner on your length before you shampoo will help shield the ends. Then condition as you normally would.

sarahthegemini
January 5th, 2014, 08:56 AM
There are tons of oils out there, just not coconut. It's pretty well known that coconut oil can be drying for some. I personally switched because it was causing really bad breakouts around my hair line. I'm going to try Safflower due to its high ceramide content. You could also just try CWC. Putting a light conditioner on your length before you shampoo will help shield the ends. Then condition as you normally would.

I co-wash so I don't use shampoo :)

Chiquita Banana
January 5th, 2014, 08:57 AM
So interesting about the coconut oil. I use it for SO many things and love it. Cooking oil, facial moisturizer, hair oil, lip balm, deodorant. I love the stuff and it doesn't make me break out at all. Every body is different though - skin and hair - and you just have to experiment to find out what works best for you.

Ms. Littlefish
January 5th, 2014, 09:00 AM
I co-wash so I don't use shampoo :)

Oops, I must have misread a sentence of two! (I have only just begun coffee time). Also, don't forget leave in conditioners! I'm on CO as well and most mornings I apply just a tiny bead of my normal conditioner in my ends. I'll go a little heavy handed if I'm washing soon, then wear it away from my face.

sarahthegemini
January 5th, 2014, 09:32 AM
So interesting about the coconut oil. I use it for SO many things and love it. Cooking oil, facial moisturizer, hair oil, lip balm, deodorant. I love the stuff and it doesn't make me break out at all. Every body is different though - skin and hair - and you just have to experiment to find out what works best for you.

I'd really like to try coconut oil as a body moisturiser, incidently my usual body lotion is running very low. I think more than anything, I just wanted it to work for my hair, as it sounded fantastic. I really want something that can prevent hydral fatigue but I suppose as i'm not (or atleast, I don't think) I am overly porous, perhaps this isn't such a big concern.



Oops, I must have misread a sentence of two! (I have only just begun coffee time). Also, don't forget leave in conditioners! I'm on CO as well and most mornings I apply just a tiny bead of my normal conditioner in my ends. I'll go a little heavy handed if I'm washing soon, then wear it away from my face.

I actually totally overlooked the fact that I use a leave-in conditioner so that must offer some protection when washday comes around, shouldn't it? I might also try olive oil!

Firefox7275
January 5th, 2014, 10:13 AM
Have a hair analysis from Goosefootprints on Etsy if you are unsure of your properties, many have had to rethink after it.

The much repeated high ceramide content of certain oils is utter nonsense, check your sources and their sources. The much copied and pasted percentage chart is for a fatty acid NOT ceramides. The closest thing to a decent natural source is probably lecithin.

Ms. Littlefish
January 5th, 2014, 10:21 AM
Have a hair analysis from Goosefootprints on Etsy if you are unsure of your properties, many have had to rethink after it.

The much repeated high ceramide content of certain oils is utter nonsense, check your sources and their sources. The much copied and pasted percentage chart is for a fatty acid NOT ceramides. The closest thing to a decent natural source is probably lecithin.

That's kind of a bummer, but you are correct. I just checked some additional sources and it looks like that chart I referenced listed the % of linoleic acid. Talk about mislabeling. Well, I already have a sample of Safflower oil. May be a nice hair oil regardless of what it actually does!

Johannah
January 5th, 2014, 10:26 AM
Yesterday I S&D my entire hair in one evening. Normally I need 2 days to do that. Apparently, wearing my hair in updo's helps a lot! I almost have no split ends anymore! Whoehoe!

ExpectoPatronum
January 5th, 2014, 10:50 AM
I'd really like to try coconut oil as a body moisturiser, incidently my usual body lotion is running very low. I think more than anything, I just wanted it to work for my hair, as it sounded fantastic. I really want something that can prevent hydral fatigue but I suppose as i'm not (or atleast, I don't think) I am overly porous, perhaps this isn't such a big concern.




I actually totally overlooked the fact that I use a leave-in conditioner so that must offer some protection when washday comes around, shouldn't it? I might also try olive oil!

I use coconut oil as a face moisturizer and I love it. It's also a fantastic body moisturizer too! It usually absorbs right into my skin if I don't glob it on and leaves it very soft and smooth. You can mix some with your body lotion to try and stretch it out too.

chen bao jun
January 5th, 2014, 11:15 AM
You can always simply cook with coconut oil, too.
My hair like olive oil better, though I can do coconut occasionally. It also likes avocado oil and this butter I mix up with shea butter, cocoa butter, aloe vera, rosehip oil and vitamin E oil(more or less, the ingredients vary a bit.) I learned it from my SIL, hers is better, she puts broccoli seed oil in it and some other things I never have. This is a good sealant after washing and putting in leave in conditioner.

sarahthegemini
January 5th, 2014, 11:55 AM
Have a hair analysis from Goosefootprints on Etsy if you are unsure of your properties, many have had to rethink after it.

I've looked into having a hair analysis (from Goosefootprints as it happens) but I'm a little put off by the fact it isn't UK based. I will keep that option though if my own 'theory' of my properties doesn't add uo after a little bit of routine tweaking.


Yesterday I S&D my entire hair in one evening. Normally I need 2 days to do that. Apparently, wearing my hair in updo's helps a lot! I almost have no split ends anymore! Whoehoe!

That's a pleasant epiphany! Hurrah! :cheese:


I use coconut oil as a face moisturizer and I love it. It's also a fantastic body moisturizer too! It usually absorbs right into my skin if I don't glob it on and leaves it very soft and smooth. You can mix some with your body lotion to try and stretch it out too.

I'm a little nervous about trying it on my face incase it breaks me out but I can imagine it being lovely to smooth onto legs and such! Good idea about adding it to my current lotion to stretch it out :)


You can always simply cook with coconut oil, too.
My hair like olive oil better, though I can do coconut occasionally. It also likes avocado oil and this butter I mix up with shea butter, cocoa butter, aloe vera, rosehip oil and vitamin E oil(more or less, the ingredients vary a bit.) I learned it from my SIL, hers is better, she puts broccoli seed oil in it and some other things I never have. This is a good sealant after washing and putting in leave in conditioner.

I feel silly asking this, but when cooking with it, does it leave a strong coconut taste on the food? I can't imagine coconut residue would taste nice on an omelette or something, but I could be wrong!

DelynofRhondda
January 5th, 2014, 03:57 PM
Hi SaraTheGemini! FWIW, cocoanut oil is tasteless & odorless. I use it in baking & cooking, replacing butter/margarine/lard in recipes. I put a teaspoon measure in hot coffee most mornings, too. Gets beneficial fats into the body, which helps it absorb fat-solvable vits more easily.

Oh, I use it on my skin & hair. Plus for the cats' & the dog's skin, paws, pelt... LoL, I sound like an advert for the Cocoanut Growers Assoc. or some such :-)

sarahthegemini
January 5th, 2014, 04:28 PM
Hi SaraTheGemini! FWIW, cocoanut oil is tasteless & odorless. I use it in baking & cooking, replacing butter/margarine/lard in recipes. I put a teaspoon measure in hot coffee most mornings, too. Gets beneficial fats into the body, which helps it absorb fat-solvable vits more easily.

Oh, I use it on my skin & hair. Plus for the cats' & the dog's skin, paws, pelt... LoL, I sound like an advert for the Cocoanut Growers Assoc. or some such :-)

Haha, you do a bit, but it's okay :p Baking with coconut oil sounds so good and healthy, why didn't I think of that! Also, as lame as this sounds, I can't wait to shower tomorrow so I can try it on my skin lol

TiaKitty
January 5th, 2014, 05:10 PM
Wait! It depends on what kind of coconut oil you have, whether you taste it or not. Virgin Coconut oil can definitely be tasted when cooking. I bought Spectrum brand virgin coconut oil specifically for that reason. It smells lovely and tastes great.

I have a recipe for gluten-free black bean brownies, and when I use coconut oil in that, it tastes heavenly, like an chocolate coconut candy!

DelynofRhondda
January 5th, 2014, 05:44 PM
That's interesting TiaKitty. I use Spectrum and LuAnne brands. No taste, no smell of coconuts. Like using old-fashioned solid vegetable shortening. Mmmm, GF Brownies :D Now you went and did it! I just have to make another batch of coconut flour and whip up some Brownies.

Oh! All coconuts are non-GMO and organic. The coconut palm is not a true tree; it's related to grass. Use of pesticides & fertilizers will kill the palm and/or cause it to stop bearing fruit. Monsanto's Mad Scientists know of no reason to genetically modify it either. Pinky swear I'm not an AssRep :o A Little Ole Lady who spends too much time doing research on things which interest me.

TiaKitty
January 5th, 2014, 05:49 PM
It has to be the virgin for it to taste and smell of coconut! I got the virgin at Walmart, even! It is more expensive though, but I think it is worth it, because of the taste. I cook with it and use it for hair and moisturizing my cracking feet.

It makes great fried rice, too!

And at 56, I think you're hardly a Little Ole Lady!

sarahthegemini
January 5th, 2014, 06:05 PM
Wait! It depends on what kind of coconut oil you have, whether you taste it or not. Virgin Coconut oil can definitely be tasted when cooking. I bought Spectrum brand virgin coconut oil specifically for that reason. It smells lovely and tastes great.

I have a recipe for gluten-free black bean brownies, and when I use coconut oil in that, it tastes heavenly, like an chocolate coconut candy!

Ooh the one I have is virgin so I guess the coconut will be detectable after cooking. I shall refrain from cooking my eggs with it :D Mmm coconut brownies though, heavenly!

eta: I have been wanting to make coconut cookies with dessicated coconut, I bet using coconut oil too would be even yummier.

spidermom
January 5th, 2014, 07:24 PM
Thank you thank you thank you for realizing that oil DOES, indeed, moisturize. I'm getting so tired of discussions that banter back and forth with "oil only seals in moisture." Gah! Oil moisturizes; it's true. (It does not, however, hydrate, which is where I think the confusion comes in.)

DelynofRhondda
January 5th, 2014, 08:43 PM
HaHa! It has to be a virgin...oh, we're discussing coconut oil. Just remember, it is a solid at cooler temperatures. Only returns to a liquid over IIRC 78-degF.

Oils do indeed moisturize! Fats aka oils (among other terms) are very good at it, too. SpiderMom you MUST be a baker :cookie: who specializes in pie crusts :hmm:

Using coconut oil makes a huge difference with my hair; both as a hair treatment and taking it internally. Right now I have about a 1/4-tsp emulsified & smoothed into Sleepy Time Plaits. Just that little bit keeps enough "slip" in the hair while working it. The hair doesn't absorb the oil...at least I don't think it does in my case. The coconut oil acts more as a moisturising lubricant.

Have to look at the market for the virgin version. Here, it's in the baking section with Crisco, Wesson, Mazola, etc. brand shortenings. My epiphany: I use food based things on my hair and thought nothing of it...until now.

TiaKitty
January 5th, 2014, 08:51 PM
That's where I find it at Walmart, too... Top shelf.

My hair soaks it up. I have to use at least a teaspoon on each of two night braids, and in the morning it will be gone! How much comes off on my pillow is a wonder, though?

I bet your cookies will be delicious, sarathegemini!

sarahthegemini
January 6th, 2014, 10:05 AM
I hope so, I don't bake much so I'm not an expert .... yet :p

ErinLeigh
January 6th, 2014, 02:51 PM
That's kind of a bummer, but you are correct. I just checked some additional sources and it looks like that chart I referenced listed the % of linoleic acid. Talk about mislabeling. Well, I already have a sample of Safflower oil. May be a nice hair oil regardless of what it actually does!

If one of the characteristics of ceramides are high linoleic acid content then I say keep enjoying it since it does indeed have a high percent of that. Whether that makes it a "ceramide" Or not in a scientific sense I can't say. But using the oils that are recommended as "ceramide" oils have certainly made a huge difference in my hair.
CurlyNikki site and other sites are posting about using these oils with positive reviews.

Supposedly hemp oil truly contains ceramides so you can always try that once you finish your sample and see if that makes a difference. That is the one I use if that makes a difference.

ErinLeigh
January 6th, 2014, 03:17 PM
Regarding the recent protein, moisture and coconut oil confusion ... I don't think my hair is highly porous, as I originally suspected. I assumed it was simply b/c my hair seemed to respond well to protein, and I thought it was badly damaged, whereas in actual fact, I trimmed away the majority of heat damage, all that was left was 'weathering' damage so to speak.

So it made me realise, that my hair is more likely to be moderately porous/average porosity. I also realised that despite using only a tiny amount of oil, my hair wasn't really absorbing it completely. Which again, would indicate that my hair isn't overly porous. And if my hair was absorbing some of it, it would thus reduce my porosity, which would make moisturising my hair more difficult, and thus more susceptible to being under-conditioned/over-proteined (this would explain the recent issue)

After doing a single wash w/o a coconut oil pre-wash oiling, and using a very basic conditioner + honey mix to inject some moisture back into my hair, it is A-okay now! Since then, I have washed a 2nd time (w/o the pre-wash oiling) and followed up with my normal rich conditioner with a little protein, and my hair is fine.

Anyway, that's my new revelation! Anyone else had moments like that? And is there any other way I could pre-treat my hair to prevent damage via washing, or do I not need to worry so much about that?


I think it its is awesome you are finding hair isn't as porous as it once was! All you hard work has paid off.
Unfortunately mine is still quite porous so I dont have advice for what would work on hair less porous than mine. Just wanted to give you a shout out. :)
If you are worried about protecting hair from water damage still, maybe just reduce the pre wash coconut to every 4th wash? Or switch oils to avocado or olive and still reduce from using them each time? These are just suggestions to toss things out there. They are penetrating also but I find them more moisturizing if that is possible. My hair feels really good with avocado pre wash where sometimes I do not get best results with coconut. Sometimes its a bit much for my hair. I find also honey cowashes usually fix the issue as well.
yea for honey! Honey co washes are my go to when I am just not sure what hair wants.

Just an an interesting post all around. Thanks for putting it up.

Firefox7275
January 6th, 2014, 03:47 PM
Oils do indeed moisturize! Fats aka oils (among other terms) are very good at it, too. SpiderMom you MUST be a baker :cookie: who specializes in pie crusts :hmm:

Using coconut oil makes a huge difference with my hair; both as a hair treatment and taking it internally. Right now I have about a 1/4-tsp emulsified & smoothed into Sleepy Time Plaits. Just that little bit keeps enough "slip" in the hair while working it. The hair doesn't absorb the oil...at least I don't think it does in my case. The coconut oil acts more as a moisturising lubricant.

Sorry but oils and fatty acids DO NOT moisturise. Moisture = water, oils are anhydrous (contain no water) and are not humectants (ingredients that attract water like glycerin). Penetrating oils actually reduce porosity and thus REDUCE the amount of water the hair can absorb with regular use. I suspect you are confusing the term moisturise with emollience (add softness and slip, aspects of conditioning).

If you use oils to 'seal' then you are making use of its primary property, that of being an occlusive. If you do so on damp hairit is the water or water based product you applied first that is the moisturiser. On one level it is semantics, but I think it is important.

Firefox7275
January 6th, 2014, 03:53 PM
Thank you thank you thank you for realizing that oil DOES, indeed, moisturize. I'm getting so tired of discussions that banter back and forth with "oil only seals in moisture." Gah! Oil moisturizes; it's true. (It does not, however, hydrate, which is where I think the confusion comes in.)

Hydrate and moisturise mean much the same thing. Adding or increasing water. Moisture = water, there is no debate you can't just invent a new meaning for a word!

sarahthegemini
January 6th, 2014, 04:07 PM
I think it its is awesome you are finding hair isn't as porous as it once was! All you hard work has paid off.
Unfortunately mine is still quite porous so I dont have advice for what would work on hair less porous than mine. Just wanted to give you a shout out. :)
If you are worried about protecting hair from water damage still, maybe just reduce the pre wash coconut to every 4th wash? Or switch oils to avocado or olive and still reduce from using them each time? These are just suggestions to toss things out there. They are penetrating also but I find them more moisturizing if that is possible. My hair feels really good with avocado pre wash where sometimes I do not get best results with coconut. Sometimes its a bit much for my hair. I find also honey cowashes usually fix the issue as well.
yea for honey! Honey co washes are my go to when I am just not sure what hair wants.

Just an an interesting post all around. Thanks for putting it up.

Thank you, I appreciate the support :flower: I did think about using a smidge of olive oil pre-wash so I will probably give that a try over the next week or so. Annoyingly, I had avocado oil but I threw it out not too long ago, damn!

I have only ever used honey a handful of times, mainly in smt treatments but after using it with my RO, I was very impressed. I can't stand the smell though! But I do have a jar of it hidden in the cupboard that will be just for hair :)

I hope you're feeling a little more positive about your own hair btw, I did see your last thread about how unhappy you was. I know it may be hard to detect 'flaws' in a picture but I think your hair in your signature picture looks lovely.