Indigo Lightening Samples - pic

[wintersun99]

I just thought I'd show off some frightening test samples. A week ago, I cut off the worst of the remaining damage (from Oct. '07) caused by trying to lighten Indigo with bleach/ peroxide. I had many inches cut off (and I'm sure the stylist thought I was nuts...) I scooped it all up and took the bits home with me. Now that I have lots of samples to work with, thought I'd show you what I tried BEFORE finally settling on just using honey.

My test samples
http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/Bleach%20Damage/008.jpg

Left: Control Sample
Middle: 30 volume peroxide for 3 hours (I notice no change in color)
Right: 30v perooxide and bleach powder mixed with a tad of shampoo, for 8 minutes.

The bleach, fried the hair, turned it crunchy in some places and mush in others, also turned it puke green. Unsalvageable

The peroxide alone, didn't damage badly, maybe a bit dry, but also there wasn't a color change.

I find that the honey lightening method is working really well on most of the length and primarily on the underlayers and near the roots. This is also where I have the least amount of damage and the least amount of Indigo. The honey lightening method really wasn't working well on the very ends where the most damage and the strongest (multiple) applications of Indigo were (which I cut off and THAT is what I'm using for samples...)

Since I have a ton of samples, if anyone wants anything tested, let me know... bear in mind my test samples are of stubborn Indigo and very dark brown in color... I already know what will and won't work on my hair and I won't be testing much for myself :)

[mellie]

Interesting! Thanks for posting!

I'm confused though...did you really mean that the right one is the control, or the left hand one?

[wintersun99]

Ack - no, the left is the control... thanks, I've fixed that...

[ktani]

I was under the impression from this post, that the honey lightening was working on the ends too, as well as the under layers.

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=219959&postcount=1869

[iris]

Yeah! Cool strand tests!



Right: Control Sample
Middle: 30 volume peroxide for 3 hours (I notice no change in color)
Left: 30v perooxide and bleach powder mixed with a tad of shampoo, for 8 minutes.


About the peroxide - I strand tested (and used ;)) peroxide pretty extensively on my hennaed hair, I didn't have any indigo but my results could maybe give a starting point for timing for hendigo also (expecting that henna + indigo will take longer to lighten than just henna):

Peroxide takes a very long time to work on henna. On my hair, which had been hennaed thoroughly for years and years, I got no visible result with 40 vol peroxide over hennaed hair in six hours (http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1516910&postcount=191). I don't know where the point is where it did start to lighten - I did make a journal post (http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1517653&postcount=192) where I reported results after 16.5 hours.

2. From my experience with peroxide over just henna: 10 vol peroxide was much better than 40 vol. The only advantage of 40 vol over 10 vol was that it was about twice as fast (so, it still took very long). The end result with 40 vol was not lighter than with 10 vol though, and, the 40 vol did much more damage. With 40 vol my hair basically turned to mush, while I could get to the same level of lightness with 10 vol in twice the time but nowhere near the amount of damage.

So, if you're taking requests :) - how about a test strand with 10 vol for 24 hours? I'd be really curious to see if that can break the indigo barrier.

Iris

[wintersun99]

To clarify: the honey was working on the ends (to some degree) in the back, but it never really worked on the ends (on the sides) to the point that I was seeing the henna red under the indigo... the sides were especially damaged so I believe that to be why the honey never really lightened the indigo there.

The honey is lightening the majority of the hair and at the same time, is leaving some indigo such that it appears I have lowlights. Here is the pic of the ends I had cut off... as you can see, they are still quite dark brown...

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/Bleach%20Damage/005-2.jpg

[wintersun99]

I actually have 10volume at home, so will put in a test sample tonight :)

[ktani]

According to research in this post, conventional hydrogen peroxide can damage cells in 30 minutes, at the DNA level.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=233176&postcount=1

I believe that is why damage to hair did not shown up right away for those to tried lightening henna with conventional peroxide, until it was too late, and hair needed to be cut off. The damage was gradual and continued but was not immediately visible.

The post also explains to me, why honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair to date.

The protective constituents in honey and honey lightening ingredients are there while the hydrogen peroxide is being produced and released.

Proctor and Gamble applied for a patent for chemical chelants and protecting hair from peroxide damage based on the same idea.

The patent application also recommends that the chelants be applied as a pre treatment or included in the processing of the lightening chemicals.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=238824&postcount=11

The protective constituents in honey lightening ingrediets, including honey, are also chelants.

[ktani]

To clarify: the honey was working on the ends (to some degree) in the back, but it never really worked on the ends (on the sides) to the point that I was seeing the henna red under the indigo... the sides were especially damaged so I believe that to be why the honey never really lightened the indigo there.

The honey is lightening the majority of the hair and at the same time, is leaving some indigo such that it appears I have lowlights. Here is the pic of the ends I had cut off... as you can see, they are still quite dark brown...

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/Bleach%20Damage/005-2.jpg

I also have to wonder what effect the Buxus had on the results with honey lightening on the darker areas, as you continued to use Buxus while lightening at the same time.

The Buxus does not appear to have affected the results where there was less indigo and damage but may have affected results on the areas where there was both more indigo and more damage. More of the Buxus IMO, would be absorbed into the damaged hair.

[Tai Shan Fan]

That's intersting. Thanks for posting :flower:
How do you wash your hair? Ordinary sulphate shampoo might help with indigo fading.

ETA: I say 'might', as always with these things, those that want rid have difficulty: those that want to keep the darker hues have more difficulty getting it to stick.

[wintersun99]

I also have to wonder what effect the Buxus had on the results with honey lightening on the darker areas, as you continued to use Buxus while lightening at the same time.

The Buxus does not appear to have affected the results where there was less indigo and damage but may have affected results on the areas where there was both more indigo and more damage.

There isn't buxus on these ends/ samples.

[ktani]

There isn't buxus on these ends/ samples.

I don't follow you, did you not apply Buxus all over your hair each time?

Or are these samples before Buxus and the latest round of honey lightening. I am confused.

[Blueglass]

In my experience, peroxide needs to be combined with ammonia for chemical lightening.

[wintersun99]

I don't follow you, did you not apply Buxus all over your hair each time?

Or are these samples before Buxus and the latest round of honey lightening. I am confused.

correct. I applied buxus to the root areas that were henna red, not to the ends that were indigo brown. These samples are strictly henna+indigo.

[wintersun99]

In my experience, peroxide needs to be combined with ammonia for chemical lightening.

That is what I thought as well, although Iris had luck lightening Henna with peroxide alone, so thought I'd see what it did on Indigo...

[ktani]

correct. I applied buxus to the root areas that were henna red, not to the ends that were indigo brown.

That explains it. Thank you.

How many henndigoes, roughly are on those ends?

[wintersun99]

That explains it. Thank you.

How many henndigoes, roughly are on those ends?

There are 2 henna+indigo (henna for 2 hours then indigo for 1 hour) process and probably 4 henna/indigo 1-step processes on those ends( henna/indigo applied together for 3 hours)

[ktani]

There are 2 henna+indigo (henna for 2 hours then indigo for 1 hour) process and probably 4 henna/indigo 1-step processes on those ends( henna/indigo applied together for 3 hours)


6 henndigoes all together and your hair went that dark, WOW.

[wintersun99]

Yep - I should have learned to do roots only and never attempted the 2-step process... that's what did it. Anyway, I'm not advocating any of these sample methods... I'm trying to give a visual as to why NOT to try it... :)

[ktani]

If you are willing to test the samples, I have ideas. The samples must be kept very wet when wrapped.

I am also going to suggest a different honey - the cheapest one you can find on this list, if possible.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

Let's play. 4 to start. None of this goes on your head, so I am going to push some recommendation limits.

1. the correct 4 to 1 dilution + 1 tablespoon ground cardamom on a pre washed sample soaked and wrapped tight in saran for 1 hour, with the treatment left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application.

2. same as 1. but a 50:50 mix equalling 1 tablespoon of ground cinnamon and ground cardamom.

3. the correct 4 to 1 dilution + 2 tablespoons ground cardamom on a pre washed sample soaked and wrapped tight in saran for 1 hour, without the treatment left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application.

4. the correct 4 to 1 dilution + 4 tablespoons ground cinnamon on a pre washed sample soaked and wrapped tight in saran for 1 hour, without the treatment left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application.

[wintersun99]

Will do. Tests tonight, Pictures tomorrow :)

[ktani]

cool.

bizzarogirl use 6 tablespoons of ground cinnamon with her first honey lightening treatment with the old 4 to 1 dilution and recipe on 2 henndigoes that were not dark and it removed all of the indigo.

Her 2nd try, still with the old dilution, but with only 4 tablespoons of cinnamon, lightened the henna layers from burgundy to red but in 1/8 the time. These results eventually led to no conditioner and distilled water being used (conditioner proved to be unreliable for most people). Distilled water results have been reported to be better and faster than conditioner or tap water being used, with a couple of exceptions water wise. Some tap waters are practically mineral free, but not anywhere near where I live, for sure, lol.

bizarrogirl - on henndigoed hair (2 henndigo treatments) (baq henna) and then on multiple henna layers with the 4 to 1 dilution - after 2 treatments in total - with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=109432&postcount=586

[iris]

In my experience, peroxide needs to be combined with ammonia for chemical lightening.
Well, it depends on your hair itself, and what you have in your hair, and on how long you leave it on for.

On my natural color, I can bleach from dark blonde to white with just 10 vol peroxide and some blowdrying or sunlight. That only works on some parts of my hair though. There are parts where pure peroxide does next to nothing.

On my hennaed hair, the first six hours produced no visible lightening. Peroxide works in increments on henna - first there's a loooong stretch of time where it looks like nothing happens, then all of a sudden it turns orange, then there's an even loooonger stretch of time where nothing seems to happen again, then it turns to a dirty brownish yellow. It doesn't go lighter than that. The only thing that happens if you leave it on longer, is that the hair disintegrates, it will not get lighter than brownish yellow.

The peroxide doesn't actually take the henna out, it just changes its color to a brownish yellow.

For reference on the timing on the henna, here's what I found in my old journal (this was all 10 vol):
starting color: very dark purply red
after 12 hours: orangey brown
16 hours: coppery brown
18 hours: bold coppery yellow (sudden transition around the 17 hour mark)
38 hours: greenish yellow with orange glints when moved in the light

Again, this was on hair that had only henna on it, and lots of it. It may not work the same on henna + indigo; also two-step or one-step could make a difference.

We'll know more tomorrow :cheese:

Iris

[ktani]

An interesting article IMO, on hair pigmentation.
http://www.pgbeautyscience.com/hair-color1.html

Here is another on hair lightening.

"Hydrogen peroxide .... an oxidizing chemical that bleaches the natural pigments in human hair."
http://www.sciencebuddies.org/science-fair-projects/project_ideas/Chem_p020.shtml

[ktani]

This is most interesting, IMO.

"Eumelanin is brown/black in color .... most common type of melanin. .... gives color to hair shades from black to brown. Phaeomelanin is red in color .... gives the yellow, ginger and red shades of hair .... color.

Melanin .... found in the cortex. Both eumelanin and phaeomelanin .... present in the hair. What determines .... hue we see is the ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelanin.

a. .... thickness of the hair
b. .... total number and size of pigment granules
c. .... ratio of eumelanin to phaeomelamin

very important to remember when a colorist is changing .... existing hair color .... All three factors .... important. The density of pigment granules and the size of the granules varies from one race to another. Another important factor is the amount of cortex in coarse thick hair. The cortex is larger than in fine hair and .... has a higher density of pigment. Blonde hair has fewer and smaller pigment granules of phaeomelanin. .... makes blonde hair easier and quicker to lighten."
http://www.texascollaborative.org/hildasustaita/module%20files/topic3.htm

So with added colour pigments, changing a hair colour depends not only on the size and density of the pigment granules in total, natural and synthetic, but the thickness of the hair shaft (the cortex of coarse hair naturally has and can hold (capacity for) more pigment) and the ratio of pigments too.

This explains to me why some people can get lighter hair faster than others with various methods used. It is not just the starting hair colour or the added colour and the older the hair is (like the ends), the greater the accumulation of added pigment, when it has been done repeatedly on all of the hair.



When hair is damaged, it cannont hold onto added colour as well as healthy hair. This may also explain why conventional peroxide can lighten certain coloured hair faster, aside from it being stronger, than the peroxide in honey lightening.

Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair.

".... the colour fastness properties of .... colored hair under different colour fastness testing conditions were getting worse with respect to the increasing degree of damaging treatment."
http://www.springerlink.com/content/c726552n05741206/

[SHELIAANN1969]

hijack

This is completely off topic, but this post reminds me of David Bowies "Ground Control to Major Tom"

ok, end Hijack!! :)

[ktani]

I simplified the other post in Honey.

To put it simply, people with coarse textured hair, which has more natural pigment and a greater ability to contain added colour, are more likely to require more honey lightening treatments than others. It also depends though on factors like as how much added colour there is, their natural colour and the type of added colour, as well as the result of the added colour.

Someone who has only done 2 henndigoes on finer textured hair, that did not go dark, would be able to honey lighten with a greater chance of success, faster than someone with multiple henndigoes on coarser, naturally dark hair, that had gone very dark, IMO.

bizarrogirl is a good example of the former and wintersun99 IMO, is a good example of the latter.

[wintersun99]

...So, if you're taking requests :) - how about a test strand with 10 vol for 24 hours? I'd be really curious to see if that can break the indigo barrier.

Iris

Update: I got home late today and missed the sun, so I did not get the chance to take a good picture but upon visual inspection - there appears to be NO change in color after 24 hours sealed in a ziploc bag with 10vol peroxide. There also appears (feels) as if there isn't any further texture change/ damage to the test strands.

So, since there appears to be no change after 24 hours, I'll pop it back into the ziploc and let it sit overnight a second night and see what happens tomorrow. Will post a pic tomorrow (taken in the sun) either way. :)

[wintersun99]

If you are willing to test the samples, I have ideas. The samples must be kept very wet when wrapped.

None of this goes on your head, so I am going to push some recommendation limits.

1. the correct 4 to 1 dilution + 1 tablespoon ground cardamom on a pre washed sample soaked and wrapped tight in saran for 1 hour, with the treatment left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application.

2. same as 1. but a 50:50 mix equalling 1 tablespoon of ground cinnamon and ground cardamom...

Update: I was able to test #1 and #2 last night (ran out of cinnamon so did not test #3 and #4)

I got home late today and missed the sun, so I did not get the chance to take a good picture but upon visual inspection - there appears to be NO change in color after following the directions exactly.

Ingredients used:
Nature's Brand Honey
Cardamom from Nature's bin
Cinnamon from Simply Organic

So, since there appears to be no change after 1 application, I'll pop the 2 samples back into the ziploc and do it a second time, tonight. Will post a pic tomorrow (taken in the sun) either way. :)

[wintersun99]

cool.

bizzarogirl use 6 tablespoons of ground cinnamon with her first honey lightening treatment with the old 4 to 1 dilution and recipe on 2 henndigoes that were not dark and it removed all of the indigo.


Grr. I wish I was getting the same results. While I was running the test strands, I decided to try this mix on my own head, which is why I ran out of cinnamon.

I used 3 tablespoons of cardamom and 3 tablespoons of cinnamon in the 4 to 1 recipe. Thankfully, I felt no irritation (strangely, my skin was irritated by cinnamon alone in amounts over 2 tablespoons)

Results were that it appeared to slightly lighten the henna at my roots and on the re-growth that has NO indigo, but did not effect the indigo... I'm starting to think I've gotten rid of all that I am going to... hit a wall, so to speak :D

[ktani]

Update: I was able to test #1 and #2 last night (ran out of cinnamon so did not test #3 and #4)

I got home late today and missed the sun, so I did not get the chance to take a good picture but upon visual inspection - there appears to be NO change in color after following the directions exactly.

Ingredients used:
Nature's Brand Honey
Cardamom from Nature's bin
Cinnamon from Simply Organic

So, since there appears to be no change after 1 application, I'll pop the 2 samples back into the ziploc and do it a second time, tonight. Will post a pic tomorrow (taken in the sun) either way. :)

Great.

So are the samples in solution in the ziploc bag or wrapped in saran in the zipoc bag?

I am trying to visualize the tests.

[wintersun99]

I simplified the other post in Honey.

To put it simply, people with coarse textured hair, which has more natural pigment and a greater ability to contain added colour, are more likely to require more honey lightening treatments than others. It also depends though on factors like as how much added colour there is, their natural colour and the type of added colour, as well as the result of the added colour.

Someone who has only done 2 henndigoes on finer textured hair, that did not go dark, would be able to honey lighten with a greater chance of success, faster than someone with multiple henndigoes on coarser, naturally dark hair, that had gone very dark, IMO.

bizarrogirl is a good example of the former and wintersun99 IMO, is a good example of the latter.

This makes sense and explains a lot (especially appropriate in my case) I do think I'm having a lot more difficulty than others and I attribute it to so many, many layers of henna/indigo in my hair...:agree:

[wintersun99]

Great.

So are the samples in solution in the ziploc bag or wrapped in saran in the zipoc bag?

I am trying to visualize the tests.

They are sealed in a ziploc, with all of the air smooshed out and propped in an upright position so that the test strands are sitting in the liquid. I couldn't get the saran-wrap to seal enough that I could ensure the test strands were continually saturated.

[ktani]

This makes sense and explains a lot (especially appropriate in my case) I do think I'm having a lot more difficulty than others and I attribute it to so many, many layers of henna/indigo in my hair...:agree:

Until I read the links, I had no idea that the texture of the hair as well as the natural pigment and pigment ratios, could play a part in changing a hair colour as well an added colour, its pigment specifics and ratios, as well as accumulated amounts.

[ktani]

They are sealed in a ziploc, with all of the air smooshed out and propped in an upright position so that the test strands are sitting in the liquid. I couldn't get the saran-wrap to seal enough that I could ensure the test strands were continually saturated.

I thought so, excellent!

[ktani]

So, since there appears to be no change after 1 application, I'll pop the 2 samples back into the ziploc and do it a second time, tonight. Will post a pic tomorrow (taken in the sun) either way. :)

The only problem I can see with that, is if you are using the same solution twice.

There is only so much peroxide produced per time and I am not sure at what point it will start to break down.

[wintersun99]

Oh no, I am making a new solution... about 5 more minutes until the hour is up and then I will put the (same) test strands from yesterday into the new solution for another hour.

[ktani]

Oh no, I am making a new solution... about 5 more minutes until the hour is up and then I will put the (same) test strands from yesterday into the new solution for another hour. :)

Perfect!

Thank you for the clarification.

[ktani]

This makes sense and explains a lot (especially appropriate in my case) I do think I'm having a lot more difficulty than others and I attribute it to so many, many layers of henna/indigo in my hair...:agree:

It made a lot of sense to me too and explains not only your results but those of others too.

I also think that the damage to hair from conventional peroxide, although not discernable for some time, explains why it has been reported to work so well to lighten henna, until the hair was so badly damaged, that it had to be cut off in some places. Damaged hair cannot hold onto pigment well and conventional peroxide starts to damage cells from the DNA level on out.

[iris]

I also think that the damage to hair from conventional peroxide, although not discernable for some time, explains why it has been reported to work so well to lighten henna, until the hair was so badly damaged, that it had to be cut off in some places.
Ah, that's why you went in such detail about how damaging conventional peroxide is vs. honey (some posts back) :idea:, I was wondering what the point was there.

I don't agree with you at all about how conventional peroxide lightens henna. If it worked the way you say - damage the hair until the henna falls out, so to speak - the lightening with conventional peroxide on hennaed hair would continue to happen as the hair is getting damaged further and further. That is not what happens though. What happens, as I described above, is that the lightening hits a plateau. First the color changes to orange, then to brownish yellow. The point is that that brownish yellow is the end stage, no matter how much you damage it afterwards.

I have left test strands in 40 vol peroxide for days and days - the brownish yellow stage was hit after 20 hours or so (I don't remember the exact number), and it doesn't change after that, even though the hair definitely does get damaged further and further the longer the peroxide is left on the hair. It goes all the way to mush but it doesn't lighten further.

I got good lightening to the brownish yellow stage on the hair on my head with 10 vol peroxide, with no perceptible damage. I did not have to cut at all on those parts. What I had to cut was a small section where I experimented with 40 vol peroxide.

10 vol does also damage hair if it's left on longer (I did strand tests), but it does not lighten further once the brownish yellow stage is achieved.

IMO what peroxide does to hennaed hair, is change the molecular structure in such a way that it reflects light differently. It changes the color from orange to dirty yellow. It does not remove the henna from the hair.

Of course conventional peroxide does damage hair, there can be no question about that. The question for me was, can I lighten my henna to such an extent with peroxide that I can live with the color, while keeping the damage to such a low level that I don't really notice it's there. The answer to that question was yes. It was a matter of learning to recognize the maximal lightening that can be achieved, and then leave it alone.

As for the comparison with honey treatments, you know, it's great that honey doesn't damage the way conventional peroxide does, but it also doesn't lighten to the extent conventional peroxide does. I haven't seen anyone with thoroughly hennaed hair get to the brownish yellow lightened stage. On my hair, honey wasn't going anywhere. The results were so subtle that with regular honey treatments, my henna would have grown out by the time it would have lightened sufficiently. I'm a patient person, I lived with two-toned hair for a year while deciding what to do about it, but after that year I was really at the end of my patience. I needed something that would do something within a reasonable time frame, with reasonable damage. 10 vol peroxide gave me that - 38 hours, no perceptible damage. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

About indigo: I think that peroxide works differently on indigo than it does on henna. Again, it looks to me like peroxide doesn't actually remove the henna, it only changes its color to a dirty yellow color. It doesn't seem to work that way on indigo - otherwise wintersun would have already seen an effect on her 24 hour strand test. It may not work on indigo at all. Peroxide's bleaching action really depends on the structure of the molecule it's working on. Peroxide works on a lot of things but not on everything. It can even change colors the other way around - peroxide can make yellow stains on certain (white!) fabrics, for instance. It all depends on what it's working on.

I also think there's another factor at work in how well honey works on honey treatments, next to the color buildup: for some reason (completely unknown what that reason is, probably something about the structure of the hair itself), indigo is not all that permanent for a lot of people to start with. I'm one such person - indigo washes out for me completely and fairly quickly. It fades for a lot of people. I imagine that honey would definitely work better for such people. It may not even be the honey that does it - just the simple action of a deep treatment can already take out a lot of indigo if your hair doesn't hold onto it very well. I'm not saying that honey doesn't do something on top of that simple mechanical action, but it does seem to be a factor to me.

Iris

[ktani]

Ah, that's why you went in such detail about how damaging conventional peroxide is vs. honey (some posts back) :idea:, I was wondering what the point was there.

I don't agree with you at all about how conventional peroxide lightens henna. If it worked the way you say - damage the hair until the henna falls out, so to speak - the lightening with conventional peroxide on hennaed hair would continue to happen as the hair is getting damaged further and further. That is not what happens though. What happens, as I described above, is that the lightening hits a plateau. First the color changes to orange, then to brownish yellow. The point is that that brownish yellow is the end stage, no matter how much you damage it afterwards. Iris

That is not exactly what I am saying. If I am unclear in the future, please ask for clarification. I have no problem with addressing that. Damage to hair by conventional peroxide is limited by the strenghth of the solution, the length of time it is left on the hair and the frequency of use. What I mean is that I believe the damage to hair by conventional peroxide is a factor in how well the hair retains the henna pigment in it. Henna binds to the keratin and may not be removed completely. Hair loses some keratin naturally over time and with damage, even more so. It could be that when hair is damaged, there is keratin/pigment loss, or the damage just affects the binding of the pigment to the keratin in the case of henna. Brownish yellow may be the end stage for lightening henna pigment or what is left of it. Henna pigment may not lighten further than that, no matter what is used, or how extensively it is used.


I got good lightening to the brownish yellow stage on the hair on my head with 10 vol peroxide, with no perceptible damage. I did not have to cut at all on those parts. What I had to cut was a small section where I experimented with 40 vol peroxide. Iris

Perceptible is the key word here. I do believe that your hair has been damaged but not to the extent that you cannot live with it.
When hair is conventionally coloured with peroxide in the formula, (and no ammonia), there is damage to a certain degree, but as a stylist once told me, "it is a trade off for the results." Such professional and home conventional colouring carefully done, can result in minimal damage but it is still damage.


As for the comparison with honey treatments, you know, it's great that honey doesn't damage the way conventional peroxide does, but it also doesn't lighten to the extent conventional peroxide does. I haven't seen anyone with thoroughly hennaed hair get to the brownish yellow lightened stage. On my hair, honey wasn't going anywhere. The results were so subtle that with regular honey treatments, my henna would have grown out by the time it would have lightened sufficiently. I'm a patient person, I lived with two-toned hair for a year while deciding what to do about it, but after that year I was really at the end of my patience. I needed something that would do something within a reasonable time frame, with reasonable damage. 10 vol peroxide gave me that - 38 hours, no perceptible damage. I would do it again in a heartbeat. Iris

When you were still doing honey lightening, while you may have understood the effect of Vitamin C on the peroxide in a honey lightening recipe to some extent, I was not aware of the implications. I had not absorbed the material from the links that you posted. Many of your recipes for honey lightening included ingredients that contained Vitamin C and I have no doubt that the Vitamin C affected your results. I also wonder what effect you might have had with different honeys, the correct 4 to 1 dilution and distilled water, but that is hindsight.


About indigo: I think that peroxide works differently on indigo than it does on henna. Again, it looks to me like peroxide doesn't actually remove the henna, it only changes its color to a dirty yellow color. It doesn't seem to work that way on indigo - otherwise wintersun would have already seen an effect on her 24 hour strand test. It may not work on indigo at all. Peroxide's bleaching action really depends on the structure of the molecule it's working on. Peroxide works on a lot of things but not on everything. It can even change colors the other way around - peroxide can make yellow stains on certain (white!) fabrics, for instance. It all depends on what it's working on. Iris

I do not believe that honey lightening removes henna pigment. Honey lightening does not, from all reports and supported by research, damage hair. I think honey lightening can and from reports has, lightened henna pigment.


I also think there's another factor at work in how well honey works on honey treatments, next to the color buildup: for some reason (completely unknown what that reason is, probably something about the structure of the hair itself), indigo is not all that permanent for a lot of people to start with. I'm one such person - indigo washes out for me completely and fairly quickly. It fades for a lot of people. I imagine that honey would definitely work better for such people. It may not even be the honey that does it - just the simple action of a deep treatment can already take out a lot of indigo if your hair doesn't hold onto it very well. I'm not saying that honey doesn't do something on top of that simple mechanical action, but it does seem to be a factor to me. Iris

I think that the action of honey lightening on indigo is no different than the action of the hydrogen peroxide in honey lightening on any other pigment.

The factors involved in changing a hair colour, as mentioned in the current posts are; the hair texture, natural pigments, added pigments, size and ratios of both and amounts. They would apply to indigo use too, IMO. Buxus has not darkened wintersun99's hair. It has darkened the hair of others. The factors are at work I believe, just as honey lightening has taken longer to affect the indigo in her hair. And while the tests so far have not shown results on her hair end samples, honey lightening has lightened the indigo in the rest of her hair to different degrees.

[wintersun99]

That's intersting. Thanks for posting :flower:
How do you wash your hair? Ordinary sulphate shampoo might help with indigo fading.

ETA: I say 'might', as always with these things, those that want rid have difficulty: those that want to keep the darker hues have more difficulty getting it to stick.

Hi,

I stopped using sulphate shampoo a few years back, it was making my scalp angry, itchy and dry. Right now, I'm using the Giovanni 50/50 shampoo which is sulphate and Paraben (I think) free.

[wintersun99]

- how about a test strand with 10 vol for 24 hours? I'd be really curious to see if that can break the indigo barrier.

Iris

Test Results:
LEFT is strand soaked in 10v peroxide for 48 hours, MIDDLE is control, RIGHT is strand soaked in 30v peroxide/bleach powder for 8 minutes.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/Bleach%20Damage/002.jpg

[wintersun99]

1. the correct 4 to 1 dilution + 1 tablespoon ground cardamom on a pre washed sample soaked and wrapped tight in saran for 1 hour, with the treatment left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application.

2. same as 1. but a 50:50 mix equaling 1 tablespoon of ground cinnamon and ground cardamom.

Test Results:
I had the time to test these strands [per the above directions] 2 times, each test was a freshly prepared mixture...so, rather than 1 hour they were tested for 2 hours total.

LEFT is strand test #1, MIDDLE is the control, RIGHT is strand test #2.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/Bleach%20Damage/006.jpg

[wintersun99]

...And while the tests so far have not shown results on her hair end samples, honey lightening has lightened the indigo in the rest of her hair to different degrees.

This is correct. The honey lightening process lightened much of the color about chin-length and above, as well as much of the underlayers. The indigo has held stubborn in some places. You can see the indigo lowlights throughout the outerlayers, in this picture.

Also, the indigo on the ends, which is what I cut off and am now using for the test strands, are certainly much darker then what you see here and didn't seem to lighten much, if at all. The tests seem to be playing that perception out... :cool:

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/006.jpg

[ktani]

Test Results:
I had the time to test these strands [per the above directions] 2 times, each test was a freshly prepared mixture...so, rather than 1 hour they were tested for 2 hours total.

Right is strand test #1, Middle is the control, Left is strand test #2.

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii267/LHC_2008/Bleach%20Damage/006.jpg

1. the correct 4 to 1 dilution + 1 tablespoon ground cardamom on a pre washed sample soaked and wrapped tight in saran for 1 hour, with the treatment left to sit for 1 hour in advance of application.

2. same as 1. but a 50:50 mix equalling 1 tablespoon of ground cinnamon and ground cardamom.

Test strand 2. on the left, seems to be lifting in colour a bit. Test strand 1. on the right, not so much.

[iris]

OK, so 10 vol for 48 gours does look lighter in the pic, quite green, and pretty frazzled too - is that correct? Is it damaged?

And for the honey the left strand is a bit lighter?

[wintersun99]

OK, so 10 vol for 48 gours does look lighter in the pic, quite green, and pretty frazzled too - is that correct? Is it damaged?

And for the honey the left strand is a bit lighter?

I did 2 separate sets of tests... natural vs chemical...

The first picture is the peroxide tests and I threw in that 30vol peroxide/bleached green test strand for shock factor.

The strand soaked in 10vol peroxide for 48 hours seems to have little/no damage to my touch, but also no color change as compared to the control strand, at least to my eye...

The second picture is the honey/cinnamon/cardamom tests. To my eye, there isn't a color change on these test strands as compared to the control...

[iris]

The first picture is the peroxide tests and I threw in that 30vol peroxide/bleached green test strand for shock factor.

The strand soaked in 10vol peroxide for 48 hours seems to have little/no damage to my touch, but also no color change as compared to the control strand, at least to my eye...

Ah, OK, then you switched left and right again in the descriptions... or am I going crazy?

[ktani]

The second picture is the honey/cinnamon/cardamom tests. To my eye, there isn't a color change on these test strands as compared to the control...

It could be my monitor in my current light plus the strand is a bit separated compared to the control.

If there is no difference to you, up front, I believe you.

[ktani]

I just changed lighting - no difference in colour.

[wintersun99]

Ah, OK, then you switched left and right again in the descriptions... or am I going crazy?

Oh, sh**t! yes - I'm looking at them differently sitting here on the floor - crap. Ok, I'm going back to change that - I swear, I do know my left and right. Give it one sec... :rolleyes:

[iris]

Oh, sh**t! yes - I'm looking at them differently sitting here on the floor - crap. Ok, I'm going back to change that - I swear, I do know my left and right. Give it one sec... :rolleyes:
LOL - you had me obsessively check my left and right there :eyebrows:

OK. You'll forgive me for looking at the 10 vol peroxide 48 hours with henna glasses on - henna is all I know, you know :).

What I find interesting is that I know that there would certainly be an effect after 48 hours on only-hennaed hair - I got an effect after only 12 hours. Not a subtle effect, a very obvious effect. Granted I've only tested it on my own hair and not on every hair on the universe, but there have been others who've needed far less than 48 hours on henna to get a result (and people who tried it with no result typically left it on only an hour or so, which really seems way too short to me).

Since it did nothing on henna + indigo - I wonder if there's some truth to the idea that indigo can bind to henna somehow (supposedly particularly in the two-step). It looks like peroxide simply has no power over indigo - maybe the indigo is bound to the henna in such a way that the peroxide can't affect the henna anymore either? Bound to the parts of the molecular structure of henna that can be affected by peroxide, but not anymore once the indigo has attached to it?

The powder bleach strand certainly is frightening. Also there, it looks like the bleach hasn't affected the indigo at all. But does look like it has affected the henna though. I don't really understand how. I do know that bleach works differently on henna than peroxide does. Bleach changes henna to a scary clown orange color. It looks very different from how peroxide works on it. Peroxide gives a softer, more brown orange color, brown-yellow at best.

Hmm, hmmm, what to make of it all. Food for thought. Thank you for doing this, it's very interesting.

Iris

ETA: Sucks that it hasn't given you anything to work with, though. Indigo is even worse than henna, it's just unbelievable. 'Washes out in 3 months' it says on the premixed boxes. Pha! Won't come out if you throw a bomb on it!

[ktani]

wintersun99

Great work so far. It is really interesting.

Thank you.

[wintersun99]

...Since it did nothing on henna + indigo - I wonder if there's some truth to the idea that indigo can bind to henna somehow (supposedly particularly in the two-step). It looks like peroxide simply has no power over indigo - maybe the indigo is bound to the henna in such a way that the peroxide can't affect the henna anymore either? Bound to the parts of the molecular structure of henna that can be affected by peroxide, but not anymore once the indigo has attached to it?

I think this is a very important point and one that I haven't been keeping in mind. I had the idea of indigo layers and henna layers being separate entitites and all along, I have been trying to lighten the indigo'd layer on the ends of my hair... which it appears, may not be possible as (in the 2-step process) the two colors have combined to become one color and not able to be separated back into indigo and henna, even though I did see a shift from black to dark reddish-brown (that appeared black indoors) I did not see a shift back to henna.

For some reason, this color-binding process may not be happening with the henndigo (1-step process) and that would explain why I was able to lighten/remove/fade out the indigo on the uppermost layers of my hair and return to mostly henna in color and further, explain why those who are using the 1-step process are seeing far greater success with lightening in general (regardless of the method used) not even taking into account what brand of and where the indigo was obtained. In my case, I'm using the indigo from H4H which is reported to have a very strong dye content.

So, it will be quite interesting to see what will happen in the future when I reach a point in length that I can test henndigo'd test strands (1-step process.) My suspicion is that there will be far greater success.

For now, I will continue to test these strands and see how many hours of applications it will take to potentially see some lightening...

In the meantime, if anyone thinks of anything that they would never dare try on their own hair, let me know :eyebrows:

[iris]

OTOH, back when I was using indigo to tone down the henna orange on my platinum blonde bits, I always did a two-step and my indigo still always washed out within a week. So I'm not a really big fan of the 'indigo binds to henna in a two-step' theory. One-step or two-step never made a difference for me.

It could also be that your ends are just packed full of henna and indigo pigment and there's no room for them to 'move'. That still doesn't explain why the henna component is not affected by the peroxide though. With 48 hours of peroxide there should at least be some effect on the henna if the henna and indigo are separate, and you should see at least a small shift towards a greener hue. But you don't.

I remember from the henna removal thread on the archives that you already tried color oops and lemon juice without any result, so we can skip that...

I was just checking out the indigo dye vat process (http://www.aurorasilk.com/info/indigo_tutorial.shtml) to see what they use there to reduce indigo, and it's a mixture of wheat bran and washing soda (pure sodium carbonate) - (ETA stupid error alert: I originally typed sodium BIcarbonate but that is a different chemical! it's sodium CARbonate that is needed) . Very alkaline.

My thinking here was that the reduced form of indigo may be a bit smaller and wash out. On indigopage (http://indigopage.com/chemistry.htm), it is said that "Once oxidised, indigo molecules are trapped inside the fibres of the surface, to which they were applied." That suggests to me that the indigo expands when it oxidizes. So reducing the indigo would return it to a slightly smaller molecule which could again move out of the hair - you know, the same principle by which color oops works on PPD dyes, the only difference being that you need something else than color oops to reduce the indigo.

But washing soda - eh - better not used on hair methinks.

I also checked out what people who wear raw denim do about indigo stains, and it seems like they haven't found a solution to the problem either. I read one recommendation to use ammonia to clean indigo-stained shoes, and one recommendation for 'bleach' on a white t-shirt. (Fabric bleach, could be anything).

Drawing a complete blank here.

Iris

[ktani]

I was just checking out the indigo dye vat process (http://www.aurorasilk.com/info/indigo_tutorial.shtml) to see what they use there to reduce indigo, and it's a mixture of wheat bran and washing soda (pure sodium bicarbonate). Very alkaline.

My thinking here was that the reduced form of indigo may be a bit smaller and wash out. On indigopage (http://indigopage.com/chemistry.htm), it is said that "Once oxidised, indigo molecules are trapped inside the fibres of the surface, to which they were applied." That suggests to me that the indigo expands when it oxidizes. So reducing the indigo would return it to a slightly smaller molecule which could again move out of the hair - you know, the same principle by which color oops works on PPD dyes, the only difference being that you need something else than color oops to reduce the indigo.

But washing soda - eh - better not used on hair methinks.
Iris

I think that it would be very interesting to test that on the hair end samples though, either the wheat bran sodium bicarbonate combo or the sodium bicarbonate itself, just to see what would happen.

Sodium bicarbonate and washing soda are 2 different compounds.

"Sodium bicarbonate .... white solid that is crystalline but often appears as a fine powder. It has a slight alkaline taste resembling that of washing soda (sodium carbonate)."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baking_soda

"Sodium carbonate (also known as washing soda or soda ash) .... a sodium salt of carbonic acid."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_carbonate

[iris]

I think that it would be very interesting to test that on the hair end samples though, either the wheat bran sodim bicarbonate combo or the sodium bicarbonate itself, just to see what would happen.
Oops, I made a critical typing error above, I will fix it. What is needed is sodium carbonate. Not sodium BIcarbonate. Sodium BIcarbonate is baking soda, sodium CARbonate is washing soda or soda ash - different chemical. It needs to be pure, too. The tutorial (http://www.aurorasilk.com/info/indigo_tutorial.shtml) has the details.

The wheat bran is necessary for the reduction process.

I agree it would be interesting to see what happens, it just wouldn't be directly helpful to anyone struggling with the indigo on their hair.

[ktani]

Oops, I made a critical typing error above, I will fix it. What is needed is sodium carbonate. Not sodium BIcarbonate. Sodium BIcarbonate is baking soda, sodium CARbonate is washing soda or soda ash - different chemical. It needs to be pure, too. The tutorial (http://www.aurorasilk.com/info/indigo_tutorial.shtml) has the details.

The wheat bran is necessary for the reduction process.

I agree it would be interesting to see what happens, it just wouldn't be directly helpful to anyone struggling with the indigo on their hair.

I had just edited sodium bicarbonate to sodium carbonate in my post while you posted, lol. I removed the edit, when I saw that you quoted me. And I quoted your error too. I had looked up the compounds after I had first posted.

I agree that this would not be helpful on the hair on someone's head. I am simply curious regarding the hair end samples.

And thank you for clarifying that the wheat bran is essential.

[ktani]

iris

It is great, IMO, that we both follow the LHC rule not to edit after being quoted without explanation or as I did, change the text back and explain why, lol.

That is the way it should be IMO, aside from the fact that it is a rule.