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SleepyTangles
December 16th, 2013, 11:44 AM
I hope this was never asked before, to not bother the moderators...
Now, I have this friend. She's a dyehard and her fine brown hair is not pleased by all this chemicals. I frankly don't "judge" this, as she is perfectly happy doing this, and its a big part of her expression (as hennaing is for me).
But I'd really, really like to help her hair to be as shiny and healthy as they can: I though of the positive experience of many lhcers who cover their hair in coconut oil before bleaching or dying their hair.

My question is: does coconut oil prevent dye uptake, or make the fading process faster :ponder:? She dyes her hair red, thats probably the pickiest chemical dye ever (fast to fade, impossible to remove completely ;))!

I also would be really pleased to hear some "long haired" hairdresser's opinion :)!

meteor
December 16th, 2013, 12:25 PM
I don't bleach anymore (growing out old highlights), but the idea behind leaving coconut oil pre-bleach/dye is the same as color-treating really greasy, "sebum-y" hair. It somewhat protects hair protein that is compromised during color treatments.
I don't think it prevents dye uptake for dye or henna, according to what LHC-ers reported, it seems to make hair a lot shinier and smoother instead. But I really can't be certain as I've never seen any research done on this.
But check out these links for people's experiences with this method:
http://ktanihairsense.blogspot.ca/2009/11/part-1-of-3-part-series-on-innovative.html
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

ErinLeigh
December 16th, 2013, 12:46 PM
my color took fantastic over coconut oil covered hair. I may be imagining it but I swear I got less damage as well.
I was really please and already vowed to always use it for root touchups and highlights.

oh..my color is holing strong as well. sorry, forgot to answer that part.

Firefox7275
December 16th, 2013, 12:48 PM
I add refined coconut oil to the dye bottle with no negative effects, there is actually lauric acid (main fatty acid in coconut oil) as an ingredient in my Garnier Nutrisse anyway. Hydrolysed protein (wheat or soy) is scientifically proven to reduce peroxide damage, to patch repair afterwards and is particularly good for fine hair. Coconut oil is only proven useful afterward, evidence for use pre dye is anecdotal.

The problem with permanent reds is the fade, which is down to a combination of molecule size, increased porosity and water exposure. Much of the damage/ increased porosity is caused by 'refreshing' the lengths each time. Best solution I have found after over a decade various shades of red is to do a roots only application then hit the lengths with a high pigment semi permanent which lasts longer than permanent with the right care.

For the healthiest hair I've had since going red over a decade ago I conditioner-only wash in cool water and use a leave in conditioner instead of wash out. Dry shampoo between times to stretch washes. Aside from coconut oil and hydrolysed protein other proven beneficial ingredients for colour damaged hair include ceramides, 18-MEA and panthenol. Dye damaged hair benefits from products that are slightly lower pH (more acidic) than virgin hair.

SleepyTangles
December 16th, 2013, 01:24 PM
meteor, thank you! I'm very relieved as it seems the dye uptake is even better :flower:

ErinLeigh good to know :thumbsup:! My friend won't have settled for something that compromises the color results.

Firefox, you're like the Red Dye Bible :bowtome:! I don't think her dye is permanent, more semi permanent, but I am by no means sure... Still, great knowledge! I was wondering if virgin oil was needed to achieve the best results, because I'd like to make her a whipped coconut smoothie (melting needed)

ErinLeigh
December 16th, 2013, 01:43 PM
Does she use a protein filler before coloring? Also, does she do whole head applications or just touch-ups?
The only time I got visible dye damage was when i did whole head applications. Has she ever discussed her hair routine with you?
I just wonder how she colors, if she heat styles, what her products are etc. Coconut oil helped me personally but I do not think it will be a cure all if there are other things going on than just dying the roots. It would be awesome if you could find out her routine and what she is looking to accomplish.
My hair was pretty fried last month. It has gotten considerably better the last 45 days by making some small changes. Oils, stopped the cones (I may go back to them but felt I needed a break while i tried to mend this mess best I could) SMTs, Satin pillowcases, cut back on SLS (still use, just way less often) and wearing hair up when I can got me to a much better place.
I actually dyed my hair all over color post keratin damage (using coconut under the dye) and my hair looks better now than beforethe dye. Not saying it was the coconut, just saying it only took me a month doing some basic changes to get hair to a state that it looked significantly better. Maybe you can help you friend make a few small changes if that is what sh wants and see if the combined effort gives her a better hair appearance. I have a before and after photo if you want to see. One from Oct 20 and one from 2 weeks ago.

ErinLeigh
December 16th, 2013, 01:47 PM
i used EVCO. I usually don't melt mine anymore but when I did my last color I ran it under hot water to melt it down and then sprayed all over hair. After watching Heidi W's youtube tutorial I now apply like she does straight form container.

I would use it straight just to be sure if doing under dye. The smoothie may be too much for under color (only opinion) but would be great for post color I bet.

EDIT: ok just re-read..I thought her hair was damaged. so really she just colors a lot and you are hoping to advise her if coconut oil will help her color last longer? IF thats the case ignore my previous ramblings. My color is only 40 days old so too soon to tell how long it will hold..but the color hasn't faded on me or altered yet.

meteor
December 16th, 2013, 02:09 PM
I was wondering if virgin oil was needed to achieve the best results, because I'd like to make her a whipped coconut smoothie (melting needed)
It may not be a good idea to use oils other than coconut and argan, according to this: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495&page=69&p=519542#post519542
They may be coating and preventing dye release.

"Heavier oilings have not been reported to interfere with conventional hair colour dye uptake or conventional lightening, as long as either coconut oil or coconut and argan oils are used. Other oils, or butters, can cause problems in both areas (they can leave a coating on the hair).

A heavy coconut oiling, has been reported to eliminate after conventional hair colouring dryness of the hair, while still not interfering with dye uptake.

Most importantly, both coconut and coconut and argan oils, used as a pretreatment, have been reported to help prevent hair damage. No damage has been reported after conventionl hair colouring or lightening, when these oils have been used. Coconut oil used as a pretreatment, has been reported to help protect already damaged hair, from any further damage, by conventional hair colouring. The purpose of using these oils, is to chelate the free iron and copper, that cause free radical damage during these processes. Conditioning benefits are a bonus. Both of these oils can deliver that too and have been reported to do so, without any other added oil, being necessary. "

SleepyTangles
December 16th, 2013, 03:00 PM
Does she use a protein filler before coloring? Also, does she do whole head applications or just touch-ups?
The only time I got visible dye damage was when i did whole head applications. Has she ever discussed her hair routine with you?
I just wonder how she colors, if she heat styles, what her products are etc. Coconut oil helped me personally but I do not think it will be a cure all if there are other things going on than just dying the roots. It would be awesome if you could find out her routine and what she is looking to accomplish.
My hair was pretty fried last month. It has gotten considerably better the last 45 days by making some small changes. Oils, stopped the cones (I may go back to them but felt I needed a break while i tried to mend this mess best I could) SMTs, Satin pillowcases, cut back on SLS (still use, just way less often) and wearing hair up when I can got me to a much better place.
I actually dyed my hair all over color post keratin damage (using coconut under the dye) and my hair looks better now than beforethe dye. Not saying it was the coconut, just saying it only took me a month doing some basic changes to get hair to a state that it looked significantly better. Maybe you can help you friend make a few small changes if that is what sh wants and see if the combined effort gives her a better hair appearance. I have a before and after photo if you want to see. One from Oct 20 and one from 2 weeks ago.

Erin, I know her routine to be fairly damaging, but she likes it that way. One day maybe she'll change her mind about her priorities, but now she is still happy with it. I'm conscious I'm not offering her a miracle, but still I like the possibility of prevent some damage!
I'd suggest her the protein filler, though!

Edit: no, you totally got the point! Its about preventing damage without any side effect!

SleepyTangles
December 16th, 2013, 03:25 PM
It may not be a good idea to use oils other than coconut and argan, according to this: http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495&page=69&p=519542#post519542
They may be coating and preventing dye release.

"Heavier oilings have not been reported to interfere with conventional hair colour dye uptake or conventional lightening, as long as either coconut oil or coconut and argan oils are used. Other oils, or butters, can cause problems in both areas (they can leave a coating on the hair).

A heavy coconut oiling, has been reported to eliminate after conventional hair colouring dryness of the hair, while still not interfering with dye uptake.

Most importantly, both coconut and coconut and argan oils, used as a pretreatment, have been reported to help prevent hair damage. No damage has been reported after conventionl hair colouring or lightening, when these oils have been used. Coconut oil used as a pretreatment, has been reported to help protect already damaged hair, from any further damage, by conventional hair colouring. The purpose of using these oils, is to chelate the free iron and copper, that cause free radical damage during these processes. Conditioning benefits are a bonus. Both of these oils can deliver that too and have been reported to do so, without any other added oil, being necessary. "

The recipe I'm referring just contains coconut oil, whipped!

afu
December 16th, 2013, 03:36 PM
I use coconut oil pre-bleach and it's amazing (in fact I've just applied my oil in preparation for tomorrow mornings salon visit)' the coconut oil absorbs free radicals which damage the hair. Coconut oil won't prevent dye uptake, but for post dye hair care she should avoid using too much oil as it can increase fading. The best way to prevent fade is to stretch washes or CO if not water only

Firefox7275
December 16th, 2013, 03:54 PM
Firefox, you're like the Red Dye Bible :bowtome:! I don't think her dye is permanent, more semi permanent, but I am by no means sure... Still, great knowledge! I was wondering if virgin oil was needed to achieve the best results, because I'd like to make her a whipped coconut smoothie (melting needed)


You need to know what type of dye she is using: temporary, semi, demi or permanent. Coconut oil may well interfere with the first two, should not with the latter two. Just because it fades badly does not mean it is not permanent, the red pigment is easily lost often leaving the brown undertones.

Permanent dye can eat through sebum and silicones (oils) no problem, can't see why some natural oils would affect dying a d not others that does not make much sense to me. The published research uses refined coconut oil IIRC.

Also don't agree oils should be limited or avoided over concerns about the leaching dye, depends how they are used IME. Coconut oil soaks on dry hair as a prewash reduces porosity, over time that would reduce water ingress into the hair potentially protecting the dye molecules. I have been both permanent (box dye) and semi permanent, use penetrating oils as treatments and in leave in conditioners yet currently have a strong/ bright colour for several months. What I don't often do is use oils in a deep conditioner, that does cause colour loss but I can't say whether that is down to the oil or other ingredients.

diddiedaisy
December 30th, 2013, 09:20 PM
Stupid question I know, but do you put coconut oil on your hair just before adding the dye? I am planning to dye next week (my hair that is lol), I go blonde so obviously it's quite harsh and I will be doing a full head, but hopefully after that just root touch ups. I have noticed since I've been dying my hair which has been a couple of years since my natural blonde went mousey brown and started throwing in some greys, the ends have gone a bit fluffy.

Firefox7275
December 31st, 2013, 08:55 AM
Stupid question I know, but do you put coconut oil on your hair just before adding the dye? I am planning to dye next week (my hair that is lol), I go blonde so obviously it's quite harsh and I will be doing a full head, but hopefully after that just root touch ups. I have noticed since I've been dying my hair which has been a couple of years since my natural blonde went mousey brown and started throwing in some greys, the ends have gone a bit fluffy.

Coconut oil as long beforehand as possible to give the lauric acid a chance to penetrate, hours minimum but days if your lifestyle permits. Another proven ingredient for protection is hydrolysed protein (wheat or soy). Also chelate, minerals can combine with the peroxide increasing damage.

Why are you doing a full head if you already dye? Refreshing is hell on the lengths, take out any brassiness with a semi permanent or tinted conditioner. If this is a total change of colour run strand tests on hidden hair: fluffy ends are damaged ends, they could break off.

Arashi
December 31st, 2013, 09:59 AM
Reminds me I need to glop on the oil... today is dye day!

I use copious amounts of oil from root to tip, let it soak for a few hours, and then dye over that. My dye uptakes beautifully every time and lasts just as long as I expect it to.

diddiedaisy
December 31st, 2013, 10:43 AM
Coconut oil as long beforehand as possible to give the lauric acid a chance to penetrate, hours minimum but days if your lifestyle permits. Another proven ingredient for protection is hydrolysed protein (wheat or soy). Also chelate, minerals can combine with the peroxide increasing damage.

Why are you doing a full head if you already dye? Refreshing is hell on the lengths, take out any brassiness with a semi permanent or tinted conditioner. If this is a total change of colour run strand tests on hidden hair: fluffy ends are damaged ends, they could break off.

Thanks for the answer, I am changing colour which is why I'm doing a full head.