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ErinLeigh
December 16th, 2013, 09:14 AM
If cones are so good at sealing moisture in...why are they so drying for some people's hair? Is it just for people who wash/wet less frequently? Do oils dry hair also if left on too long also? Or is it because you have to use the strong stuff more often to remove cones? Although silicones are in my rotation, they are used very sparingly. I wouldn't mind using them more as I have a ton of products I could be using up..but I am afraid to use them more than a few times a month. Are my fear irrational? Is oiling doing the same blocking as the cones so its really a YMMV situation? Is one truly better than the other?

Also, for people who use oils instead of cones...do you notice a difference in hairs nourishment? If you skip cones..what is you reason for oil? Sealing, trying to nourish, shine, slip?

Madora
December 16th, 2013, 09:21 AM
This might be of interest:
http://ktanihairsense.blogspot.ca/2011/12/understanding-drying-capacity-of-oils.html

spidermom
December 16th, 2013, 09:32 AM
I use coconut oil pre-wash because hair needs lipids. Lipids relieve dryness.
I use cones post-wash because they protect from heat damage (although blow-drying on warm isn't proven to be damaging) and make detangling easier.

Tangle or Curl?
December 16th, 2013, 09:36 AM
I use cones daily as my hair is very tangly and grabby without them (yes I have tried cone free several times and even with oil there is just no way). I also use peanut oil prior to shampooing once a week. My hair tends to be dry with or without sealants, so the problem just becomes really being able to get moisture into the shaft every once in a while so that you are sealing water in rather than out. once a week I shampoo in the bathtub and then do an SMT with honey, aloe, and peanut oil under a shower cap...I tend to go without conditioner just to be sure I have ample humectant coverage for as long as possible. I just have to do a light shampoo before conditioning or I end up with clumps of curds from aloe mixing with silicones. Then a gob of conditioner as leave in.

As a general rule the more moist my hair is the more it feels like snot when wet....gross I know, but a good sign. Then it is softer, smoother, and more tangle resistant. When it starts to feel more like trying to dampen a dead bush things are getting dry on the inside.

Firefox7275
December 16th, 2013, 04:42 PM
The words dry, moisture and sealing are much misused and/ or misunderstood. Moisture = water, most of us have no way of measuring the water content of our hair. We often assume rough or coarse or damaged hair is lacking in water, when it may well simply be in need of better conditioning, clarifying/ chelating or simply a trim. Nothing completely seals the hair, sealing water in or out otherwise hair coated in a normal amount of oil or silicone would either not wet or never dry after washing.

Hair is not one generic entity, it can be high or low porosity, good or poor elasticity, coarse or fine, virgin or damaged (even if only by normal 'weathering' over many years), kinky or not, curly or straight, in a damp or dry climate - these attributes affect how it responds to different products or ingredients.

Natural oils are not all created equal, ones rich in oleic acid or lauric acid can penetrate reducing porosity and increasing elasticity, that means the hair will take up LESS water so protecting from hygral fatigue. Ones rich in polyunsaturated fatty acids, large or long molecules cannot penetrate. Low porosity virgin hair will absorb much less than high porosity colour treated hair.

Oil and water do not mix so I can't see how silicones or natural oils could attract water out of the hair. I do not use silicones because I co-wash and follow the Curly Girl method. Prior to that I used nothing but silicones (no conditioner, spray detangler instead). They did not give me great hair, it was in very poor shape due to colouring and mechanical abuses. Now I replace the properties of silicones with other ingredients (natural oils, ceramides, hydrolysed protein, panthenol) which have additional desirable properties for my wavy colour treated hair. I have little issue with knots at my current length and regime so don't need silicones superior detangling properties. My hair is in massively better shape than it was.

animetor7
December 16th, 2013, 08:53 PM
I personally do not like cones for several reasons. First off they initially make my hair far too slippery. I have 1 b hair with low porosity and thus TONS of natural slip so adding cones on top of all of that means hair that won't stay in anything, braids, buns, even a ponytail will fall out. Secondly cones seem to seal out moisture for me, or at least make it so that more moisture cannot get inside the hair shaft and do any good. I am also mostly CO and always sulfate free so removing cones is problematic. So in the long run cones lead to much more tangling, dryness and breakage for me than if I just left well enough alone and take them out of my regime and prefer coconut oil. Thus I don't use them. That said, many people can use cones and oils together to great effect, TorrinPaige comes to mind. You have to be careful about how you use them though, for instance, don't use oil after you already have cones on your hair as it won't penetrate, make sure you have cleaned your hair of cones before applying it, and then apply your cones after your oil. This can theoretically give you the best of both, moisture from the oil and sealing from the cones. Also if you are using cones make sure that you have some sort of clarifying wash in your rotation.

Firefox7275
December 17th, 2013, 05:59 AM
Sorry but natural oils do not moisturise and normal use of silicones will not block oils from penetrating, no evidence of that. The occlusion is semi permeable at best.

ErinLeigh
December 19th, 2013, 01:38 PM
So if I oil over cones, it is getting thru but maybe just not as much? And unless I am oiling to penetrate it really doesn't matter if I use cones or oil as it is the same effect?
Do oils nurture hair in a way cones do'nt? I guess I am asking if oils do give some vitamin or nutrients to hair to nourish it somehow. If not what is the point of oiling hair?

ErinLeigh
December 19th, 2013, 01:39 PM
So if I oil over cones, it is getting thru but maybe just not as much? And unless I am oiling to penetrate it really doesn't matter if I use cones or oil as it is the same effect?
Do oils nurture hair in a way cones do'nt? I guess I am asking if oils do give some vitamin or nutrients to hair to nourish it somehow. If not what is the point of oiling hair?

meteor
December 19th, 2013, 01:58 PM
I guess I am asking if oils do give some vitamin or nutrients to hair to nourish it somehow. If not what is the point of oiling hair?
Hair is dead, so you can't feed hair with vitamins/nutrients the same way you can your body or even skin to some degree. What you want from oil is penetration and patch repair, elasticity, hydrophobic action and sometimes chelating action that certain oils provide (e.g. coconut).

Every time I oiled hair over cones, the elasticity of my hair increased and it just looked like properly oiled hair, so I would suspect that some penetration occurred, but I don't think there's been any scientific research to prove/disprove it.

I do believe that oils provide occlusion/hydrophobic action, because if you wash heavily oiled hair with water only, your hair will probably still feel oily. Surfectants in shampoos and conditioners bind with oils and remove them, but water doesn't do that.
I find that cones build up worse than oils and feel dry after a long while, so I prefer oils and use cones only when I can't find an alternative effective cone-free detangling product.
However, drying oils (e.g. safflower, grapeseed) also feel quite drying after heavy use, they can even be harder to remove than cones.

Sillage
December 19th, 2013, 02:23 PM
I'm using oil and cones right now. Either Alterna Kendi Dry Oil spray or L'Oreal EverCreme leave in spray for cones (and oil) and then shea butter on the length and ends for oil. Both are applied to wet hair before I blow dry on low. I don't know how it works but I get shine, slip, and softness from the cones and shea butter seems to keep my ends from looking/feeling dry. I agree with FireFox that oil can't actually moisturize hair since it doesn't contain water but I'm at a loss to describe what the shea butter does :laugh: Maybe "supple" could be the word? Anyway my ends don't look busted and dry when I use shea butter.

Firefox7275
December 19th, 2013, 02:31 PM
I'm using oil and cones right now. Either Alterna Kendi Dry Oil spray or L'Oreal EverCreme leave in spray for cones (and oil) and then shea butter on the length and ends for oil. Both are applied to wet hair before I blow dry on low. I don't know how it works but I get shine, slip, and softness from the cones and shea butter seems to keep my ends from looking/feeling dry. I agree with FireFox that oil can't actually moisturize hair since it doesn't contain water but I'm at a loss to describe what the shea butter does :laugh: Maybe "supple" could be the word? Anyway my ends don't look busted and dry when I use shea butter.

The effect you describe is likely emollience, which is also the major aspect what basic conditioning agents do.

Firefox7275
December 19th, 2013, 02:38 PM
So if I oil over cones, it is getting thru but maybe just not as much? And unless I am oiling to penetrate it really doesn't matter if I use cones or oil as it is the same effect?
Do oils nurture hair in a way cones do'nt? I guess I am asking if oils do give some vitamin or nutrients to hair to nourish it somehow. If not what is the point of oiling hair?

Hair is dead, nutrients are largely useless. If you only want a superficial effect then which natural oil you choose or which silicone is arguably personal taste. Most long hairs will have increased porosity in their older and thus more damaged ends so will get some benefit from fatty acid penetration.

Silicones tend to be superior for slip/ detangling, but some don't like the plasticky feel or unnatural shine or potential build up or weighing down of waves. I would note that not all silicones are created equal: the water soluble (PEG-) and amino ones (eg. amodimethicone) resist building up.