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View Full Version : Hair Salon Misunderstandings or Indifference



endlessly
November 26th, 2013, 12:29 PM
I have to post this question because maybe some of you can provide some input: what is it with stylists always wanting to cut off so much more than the amount you requested? Are some just incapable of understanding measurements? I know the argument how 'one inch' can mean different things to different people, but when I show what 'one inch' is, why do they always insist on cutting 3 or 4? I've been told they probably 'saw damage and decided it would be better to cut it off now', but the stylists are always telling me how healthy my hair is and wanting to know what products I'm using and my haircare routine, so I know that certainly isn't the reason. Is it that they just don't care and figure I have so much length I won't notice the long hair on the floor? It's so frustrating!

I haven't been to a salon since last March just to have some repair done after a particularly nasty haircutting blunder courtesy of Great Clips, and even after showing the stylist how much I wanted trimmed, she still doubled the amount. Some have told me in the past that in order to avoid this ordeal, I should just start cutting my hair myself, but because of my back condition, I honestly can't without very severe pain. I don't even trust my relatives or friends with my hair because knowing them, they'd cut off two feet - I know this seems harsh to say, but they're pretty much jerks when it comes to my hair length.

Have any of you noticed this happening? Besides flat out showing the stylist what I want and still not getting it, I don't know what else to do. Any suggestions?

sumidha
November 26th, 2013, 12:36 PM
My go-to suggestion is always to just trim your own hair, I'm sorry to hear that's not really an option for you. I know some people here have had success finding barbers, as opposed to hair stylists, who actually did only trim off only what was requested. Or maybe poll other long hairs to find a better stylist in your area?

leslissocool
November 26th, 2013, 12:40 PM
I would get in contact with a fellow longhair in your area and ask for their stylist, even if it means driving a bit.

Sillage
November 26th, 2013, 12:43 PM
What I do is talk to the receptionist of the salon when you call to make an appointment. Tell her or him that you have long hair and are looking to conserve as much length as possible. Ask for a stylist who will only cut off a literal inch (or whatever). The receptionist knows who is scissor happy and who can give you what you want. And when you meet your stylist, make sure you say the same thing. You may even want to mention that you've been disappointed in the past by stylists who have taken off too much. Personally, I've never had a problem but maybe I've just been lucky.

Nightshade
November 26th, 2013, 12:50 PM
I second going to a barber. I did that once in my town. Went like this.

I walk in, Barber looks up and me, "I don't do lady-cuts."

Me, "I know. I want one inch off, straight across the bottom."

Him, not sure about this. "That's it?"

Me, "That's it. I don't want some scissor-happy loon who's going to try to upsell me on highlights, lowlights, and a complicated cut. I want one inch off the bottom."

Him, "Okay fine." Hands me a comb. "Comb it yourself, though."

I do, then hop on the chair. He cuts EXACTLY one inch right across the bottom. Charged me $5. I tipped him $10 and left. :lol:

Horray for grumpy old men barbers. The best part was the other three older men just hanging out talking at the time. It was probably the strangest thing they'd seen in awhile. XD

dulce
November 26th, 2013, 12:50 PM
I had this happen to me too many times,and I was very specific how much to cut off as I was growing longer and said that, that I was growing longer.Now I cut my own with a Creaclip or have hubbie do it.No more salons for me.

dulce
November 26th, 2013, 12:53 PM
A barber sounds like a good option but they have been replaced by ''unisex'' salons in my area.

YamaMaya
November 26th, 2013, 12:56 PM
Look for a salon that caters to long hair, do your research, and when you get there, make sure they know what it is you want. Maybe as a treat once a year save up to go to George Michael and get a yearly trim from them? They have a pretty good reputation in the long hair community it seems and won't patronize or try to use high pressure tactics to get you to get something you don't want.

Venefica
November 26th, 2013, 12:58 PM
I am lucky the hair salon I use are really good, they do exactly what I want them to. I got a crooked cut of my bangs once but then one of the more skilled hairdressers cleaned it up for me with no extra charge, any other time I have been very happy. If I ask them to take half an inch of, they take half an inch off, if I ask them to use another type of brush they do that so yeah I am lucky that way.

HintOfMint
November 26th, 2013, 01:12 PM
Yelp can be a good way to see if a salon or stylist is respectful of long hair or at least adhering strongly to clients' wishes.

Strangely enough, a Yelp review is what made me decide against a trip to the George Michael salon in NYC. Apparently they don't do layers and they don't even trim them if you already have them. I personally think their anti-layer stance is stupid, but besides that, not trimming damage on layers doesn't make the layers easier to grow out, it just results in more splits and breakage. It just doesn't make sense to leave damage alone, especially if you're asking that person to grow out their layers. So, long story short, even "long hair salons" can be disrespectful of clients and pushy about their own agenda.

ClarySage
November 26th, 2013, 01:44 PM
I have to post this question because maybe some of you can provide some input: what is it with stylists always wanting to cut off so much more than the amount you requested? Are some just incapable of understanding measurements? I know the argument how 'one inch' can mean different things to different people, but when I show what 'one inch' is, why do they always insist on cutting 3 or 4? I've been told they probably 'saw damage and decided it would be better to cut it off now', but the stylists are always telling me how healthy my hair is and wanting to know what products I'm using and my haircare routine, so I know that certainly isn't the reason. Is it that they just don't care and figure I have so much length I won't notice the long hair on the floor? It's so frustrating!

I haven't been to a salon since last March just to have some repair done after a particularly nasty haircutting blunder courtesy of Great Clips, and even after showing the stylist how much I wanted trimmed, she still doubled the amount. Some have told me in the past that in order to avoid this ordeal, I should just start cutting my hair myself, but because of my back condition, I honestly can't without very severe pain. I don't even trust my relatives or friends with my hair because knowing them, they'd cut off two feet - I know this seems harsh to say, but they're pretty much jerks when it comes to my hair length.

Have any of you noticed this happening? Besides flat out showing the stylist what I want and still not getting it, I don't know what else to do. Any suggestions?

It's one of the reasons I stopped going! I think it's cause they think they know what's best and you'll just swoon when you see the masterpiece they call the hair cut and don't understand that a lot of people seriously just want one inch cut!

Hootenanny
November 26th, 2013, 02:07 PM
Strangely enough, a Yelp review is what made me decide against a trip to the George Michael salon in NYC. Apparently they don't do layers and they don't even trim them if you already have them.

Wow, this is so bizarre. Do they give a reason for refusing to do layers? I had been hoping to try a George Michael salon at some point, and it would likely be the NYC one, but as a curly, my hair must have at least some layering, or it looks like a pyramid. Guess I won't be trying GM after all. :(

Flor
November 26th, 2013, 02:08 PM
Huh, the hairdressers I've seen didn't even understand the word "trim". One told me that there's no such thing ;) They would always layer the crap out of my hair. Sometimes I'd get lucky with longer layers. Other times it'd be up to my ears. I got so sick of it, that next time I wanted to cut it shorter and with blunt hemline, I gave scissors to husband and said: "Cut! You can't screw it up more than they do." I've been cutting his hair for a few years at that point (he also never got what he wanted in salons) and we already had proper scissors and everything.

I cut it myself nowadays. I'm getting quite good at it. For a trim you only need to part your hair evenly, bring it in front and trim.

windyballoons
November 26th, 2013, 02:12 PM
Is your hair long enough to pull to the front and trim that way?

Maybe there's someone from LHC near you who would be willing to trim it for you?

Alternatively, try telling them that you want even less off than you actually do. Say you want half an inch if you really want an inch- or maybe tell them that if they cut off more than an inch, you won't pay them (lol)!

leslissocool
November 26th, 2013, 02:24 PM
Wow, this is so bizarre. Do they give a reason for refusing to do layers? I had been hoping to try a George Michael salon at some point, and it would likely be the NYC one, but as a curly, my hair must have at least some layering, or it looks like a pyramid. Guess I won't be trying GM after all. :(

Yes they do have a reason it's in their philosophy that hair grows at maximum capacity when one length. Again, I Ecco research the salon before going. GM is not known for being curly friendly, you want a curly specialty hairstylist. Reading the various GM threads here will give you an idea of what they do .

chen bao jun
November 26th, 2013, 02:25 PM
GM sounds so fantastic and pampering but I have heard before that they are not the greatest for curly hair.

Wow, this is so bizarre. Do they give a reason for refusing to do layers? I had been hoping to try a George Michael salon at some point, and it would likely be the NYC one, but as a curly, my hair must have at least some layering, or it looks like a pyramid. Guess I won't be trying GM after all. :(

jeanniet
November 26th, 2013, 02:34 PM
Honestly, this has never happened to me. If anything, they take off less than I ask. I don't know why, I'm sure I'm not any clearer than anyone else.

Hootenanny and chen bao jun, GM salons are not meant for curly hair. I don't think GM really had experience with true curly hair, and I don't think the salon experience would be positive for a curly.

Macaroni
November 26th, 2013, 02:48 PM
I have heard good things about barbers, they do exactly what you want.

I do a version of Feye's Method, I part my hair in the middle, make two low pigtails, and bring them over my shoulders onto my chest. I measure and cut. Easy peasy.

Hootenanny
November 26th, 2013, 02:52 PM
Thanks so much for the info, leslissocool, chen bao jun, and jeanniet. I didn't realize that they weren't good with curly hair. I love the idea of a pampering "spa day" for hair; guess I'll look into other options. :)

Long_hair_bear
November 26th, 2013, 02:56 PM
I wouldn't say ALL hair dressers are like that! My hair dresser of 8 years just trimmed my hair yesterday, and only took off between 1/4" to 1/2", just what I asked her to, and no more. You just have to find the right hairdresser.

jeanniet
November 26th, 2013, 03:19 PM
I wouldn't say ALL hair dressers are like that! My hair dresser of 8 years just trimmed my hair yesterday, and only took off between 1/4" to 1/2", just what I asked her to, and no more. You just have to find the right hairdresser.

Agreed. I got my haircut last Friday, and he cut my layers and then asked if I wanted them shorter (I did). He is very exact, and always confirms how much I want off, and reminds me about shrinkage. But I can't really think of any cut I've had where a whole lot more was taken off over what I asked for. Maybe a tad either way, but not multiple inches. Whenever I've gotten too much cut, it was my own fault.

jrmviola
November 26th, 2013, 03:29 PM
Here is one of GM threads i found. Its just the first one the search engine popped up:

http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=61646

Liz_park
November 26th, 2013, 03:38 PM
I do, then hop on the chair. He cuts EXACTLY one inch right across the bottom. Charged me $5. I tipped him $10 and left. :lol:

Horray for grumpy old men barbers. The best part was the other three older men just hanging out talking at the time. It was probably the strangest thing they'd seen in awhile. XD

This is the cutest story, Nightshade! :) I love it!

lillithnight
November 26th, 2013, 04:05 PM
This is the cutest story, Nightshade! :) I love it!

I think so to. My uncle is a barber if I didn't have layers id have him do my trims. Once my hair is long enough I will probly go to him to get a blunt cut. Right now anything short of hip length isn't something id do a blunt cut on and my hair won't be waist length for a few more months.

The-Young-Maid
November 26th, 2013, 04:08 PM
The last time I went in for a "trim" this summer I had just hit classic. I asked REPEATEDLY for 2 inches off I ended up with at least double that. I left with waist length. Make sure you are firm with exactly what you want. Make them show you an inch. Don't be afraid to make a scene of they're not listening. Luckily my hair grew fast and I'm back at tailbone. Sure the new ends were nice but NOT where I wanted them. I have resolved to never visit a salon again, I'm looking into a creaclip for myself by next Christmas at the latest.

*Not trying to bash hairdressers just sharing my experience. Unfortunately, the hairdresser that gave me my first haircut also gave me my last.*

CousinItt
November 26th, 2013, 04:34 PM
I don't have any particular stylist i go to, but I've never had a problem when I've explained that I'm growing my hair out and would like them to keep it as long as possible, while still getting it in shape. Nobody has ever gotten scissor happy on me, and I've always left quite happy with the work. I don't count my inches though, so I'm probably not prone to notice that they've cut off more than necessary.

jlb
November 26th, 2013, 05:00 PM
Not all hairdressers are bad. I love mine, after seeing her for over a year I let her tell me how much needs trimmed because she knows far more about hair than I do. Good luck finding someone, it's worth the search.

Leafy
November 26th, 2013, 05:19 PM
So in summary...
Be absolutely clear on how much you want trimmed and that you're trying to grow your hair out, so you do not want more cut off than you ask for - no matter what. Make sure the hairdresser understands and even show you, and also make it clear you will either make a complaint against the stylist if they don't do as you ask (it's your hair!) and/or not return to the salon. Don't be afraid of keeping your voice low, they won't want others to think they can't provide the perfect service.
That way, the hairdresser should certainly pay you the absolute full attention you deserve and to get what you want from your service. And if they fail you, it'll be bad on them due to the complaint/being the cause of the salon losing a customer. Because it's all about client retention.

AmyBeth
November 26th, 2013, 05:20 PM
The only hairdresser who I ever went to who really understood "microtrim" actually had long hair herself. Well it was mid back length. Call around to different salons and ask the receptionist if any of the stylists have long hair and then schedule a consultation with the stylist. Don't make an appointment for a trim until you know that you and the stylist are on the same page. When you actually schedule the cut, request the stylist show you how much she is going to cut with each snip until you know for sure he/she gets where you're coming from. If the stylist will not cooperate, start walking. It sounds like you have had a very difficult time and you need to be very assertive from now on.

spidermom
November 26th, 2013, 05:50 PM
I don't understand why so many have such a hard time with hair stylists. Every single stylist that I can remember tried to give me what I wanted. Some of them were better at their job than others. I've definitely walked out with uneven hair before, but other than that - no problem. No one has ever agreed to trim one inch and then cut off three or four inches instead.

I have experienced a miscommunication before, but I had no one to blame but myself. I told her I was going to get rid of the layers when the shortest layer was long enough but only wanted a one-inch trim. Then I kept blathering on about what I planned to do, and she ended up cutting more than I wanted, but she was trying to help me accomplish my goal of eliminating the layers. I learned from it - keep it simple. Tell her what you want NOW, not what you plan in the future.

TheWhiteRabbit
November 26th, 2013, 05:51 PM
I go and get mine trimmed at a small salon. The guy does not like just trimming off the little bit I ask for. I get the feeling that it is because he feels like it is a waste of his time to only trim off half an inch at a time. However, he still does what I ask, even though he is never happy about it.

Foxylocks
November 26th, 2013, 07:53 PM
I haven't been to a salon since last March just to have some repair done after a particularly nasty haircutting blunder courtesy of Great Clips, and even after showing the stylist how much I wanted trimmed, she still doubled the amount. Some have told me in the past that in order to avoid this ordeal, I should just start cutting my hair myself, but because of my back condition, I honestly can't without very severe pain. I don't even trust my relatives or friends with my hair because knowing them, they'd cut off two feet - I know this seems harsh to say, but they're pretty much jerks when it comes to my hair length.

Have any of you noticed this happening? Besides flat out showing the stylist what I want and still not getting it, I don't know what else to do. Any suggestions?

GRRRRR! The exact same thing happened to me... at Great Clips, in March. I ask for just half an inch, and my waist length hair is sliced all the way back to MBL. Favorably, my hair has grown to hip after that ordeal. Also, she was tearing through my poor hair with a comb - I could feel the healthy hairs being torn out of my scalp. I tried to tell her to be more gentle, but alas, she did not listen.
I've taken to trimming my own hair using Feye's self-trim method. Never again will I visit a salon. When I trim my own hair, I know that I will take off the quarter of an inch that I want, that I can gingerly comb my hair without tearing half of it out.

DweamGoiL
November 26th, 2013, 08:42 PM
Wow, this is so bizarre. Do they give a reason for refusing to do layers? I had been hoping to try a George Michael salon at some point, and it would likely be the NYC one, but as a curly, my hair must have at least some layering, or it looks like a pyramid. Guess I won't be trying GM after all. :(

I LOVE GM. I used to go to them religiously for years, but they are EXPENSIVE and now, frankly, I can't afford them. In your case since you are a curly, I would choose to go to Devachan instead. They specialize in curly hair and are very conscious of growing your hair out.

endlessly
November 26th, 2013, 09:05 PM
I second going to a barber. I did that once in my town. Went like this.

I walk in, Barber looks up and me, "I don't do lady-cuts."

Me, "I know. I want one inch off, straight across the bottom."

Him, not sure about this. "That's it?"

Me, "That's it. I don't want some scissor-happy loon who's going to try to upsell me on highlights, lowlights, and a complicated cut. I want one inch off the bottom."

Him, "Okay fine." Hands me a comb. "Comb it yourself, though."

I do, then hop on the chair. He cuts EXACTLY one inch right across the bottom. Charged me $5. I tipped him $10 and left. :lol:

Horray for grumpy old men barbers. The best part was the other three older men just hanging out talking at the time. It was probably the strangest thing they'd seen in awhile. XD

I never thought of going to a barber, so that's definitely an idea I'm going to look into. I honestly cannot think of a single barber shop in my area since we mostly seem over-run by the unisex salons - Great Clips mostly. Thank you for the input!

chen bao jun
November 26th, 2013, 09:07 PM
I've had hairdressers several times not only cut more than I wanted but give me a style I didn't ask for. Most notably, when I got married, I jsut went in to get a relaxer touched up, she said she'd give me a trim and I ended up with all kinds of layers and more than 8 inches cut off in some places. So it does happen. that's not the only experience like that I can remember, either. And I'm not a wilting violet or very shy or unclear about askign what I want. Some hairdressers are obviously very good, because some of you have been to them adn there are lots of those on this forum and I'm always grateful to hear from them, but there ARE other hairdressers who are nightmares and who just don't listen or have their own agenda in mind. And a lot of us are on this forum because we have run into one at least once.

endlessly
November 26th, 2013, 09:22 PM
GRRRRR! The exact same thing happened to me... at Great Clips, in March. I ask for just half an inch, and my waist length hair is sliced all the way back to MBL. Favorably, my hair has grown to hip after that ordeal. Also, she was tearing through my poor hair with a comb - I could feel the healthy hairs being torn out of my scalp. I tried to tell her to be more gentle, but alas, she did not listen.
I've taken to trimming my own hair using Feye's self-trim method. Never again will I visit a salon. When I trim my own hair, I know that I will take off the quarter of an inch that I want, that I can gingerly comb my hair without tearing half of it out.

The one thing I hate the most about any salons is the fact that they alway rip through my hair to detangle and it's not only painful to my scalp, but I can actually hear the hair breaking and shredding. *Shudders*

My very first disastrous cut was about 2 years ago and more of an "oops" on the stylist's part. I had asked for one inch total taken off the bottom (even showing her) and then wanted feathered layers on the very bottom only. I made sure to ask if she understood, showed her pictures of the style I had before to make sure she clearly understood and when she said she did, I took her word for it. I figured, "Okay, I have a picture of the hairstyle on me, I've clearly showed her what I want and expect, there's no way she can screw this up." Hell, I even thought I was maybe too hard on her at first and came off kind of bitchy since I kept repeating myself! So, she halved my hair and told me to look down. At this point, I thought she was going to clip up the top half and start trimming the bottom (what they normally do), but then I heard scissors and her saying, "Oops. Oh, I can fix this."

Stunned silence on my part. Long story short, I had to sit there in tears because I couldn't see what was happening and when I kept trying to look up, she'd push my head down. Finally, I just had to stand up and get away from her to see the damage - and it was definitely a lot of damage! The girl didn't even finish the cut, just did a quick hack job to get me out of the salon and still had the audacity to charge me when I was clearly upset and even asked for it to be fixed, but she refused. Then, when I wouldn't give her a tip, she called me a bitch. Wow, really? Good news to this story is that she is no longer working at that location!

The incident last March involved me going in for a fix of the previous girl's hackjob and their then manager arguing with me about how much to take off. I did the same to her, showing her one inch, and she cut 3 1/2, then called me a liar. One of the other girls working there was kind enough to stand up for me, but it still soured the 'experience' especially when I lost so much more than I wanted and still had to pay for another unhappy cut. Definitely not a Great Clips customer anymore!

endlessly
November 26th, 2013, 09:30 PM
Is your hair long enough to pull to the front and trim that way?

Maybe there's someone from LHC near you who would be willing to trim it for you?

Alternatively, try telling them that you want even less off than you actually do. Say you want half an inch if you really want an inch- or maybe tell them that if they cut off more than an inch, you won't pay them (lol)!

It is long enough that I can pull it in the front, but having to hold still in that position is a little awkward and painful for me - plus, when I've tried it, I can't seem to get the hair even. I like the idea of semi-threatening the hairdressers, though, but they probably wouldn't respond well to it!

endlessly
November 26th, 2013, 09:31 PM
Thank you so much everyone for the wonderful input, you've definitely given me quite a few ideas to try out and I greatly appreciate it!

Artisticat
November 26th, 2013, 09:43 PM
It's been almost 2 years since I went to a salon. Horrible experience! If I was to go again...I would take a husband, wife, SO, best friend, etc., etc. and have them strictly monitor the cutting. You have to be very clear with the stylist and be willing to walk out if you get bad vibes. I didn't pay attention to the vibes (or my gut)...so I ended up with razored and layered hair (not what I wanted).

Also you may want to underestimate to the stylist how much you want cut off - start out with 1/4" trim or dusting - then maybe you'll end up with a 2 inch trim. :rolleyes:

windyballoons
November 26th, 2013, 09:56 PM
It is long enough that I can pull it in the front, but having to hold still in that position is a little awkward and painful for me - plus, when I've tried it, I can't seem to get the hair even. I like the idea of semi-threatening the hairdressers, though, but they probably wouldn't respond well to it!

Of course, I would never be brave enough to actually say that- the last thing you want is an angry set of scissors against your hair!

I hope you find a solution!

LauraLongLocks
November 26th, 2013, 09:59 PM
I always ask for a "dusting" and the stylist usually asks again, "how many inches do you want me to cut off?" I say, "I want a dusting; I want to see DUST on the floor." So far, explaining it as DUST has resulted in actually getting a dusting every single time.

I learned several years ago not to tell the stylist to take off whatever needed to come off. That usually results in 3-4" or more being cut.

I am nearing a milestone of reaching waist, when I am planning to take off half of my growth every month while I wait for layers to grow out. I'm actually thinking of bringing my measuring tape in, measuring my length in front of the stylist, and explaining that I grew xx this month, and want to cut exactly half of the growth off. I think if you are very specific about what you want, even showing them a measuring tape, if necessary, they usually try to make you happy.

Kaelee
November 26th, 2013, 10:03 PM
UGH! I know the feeling, I've had my hair butchered before. I've also had plenty of cuts that I'm happy with, but one bad one is enough to make me not want to risk visiting a salon again. There are some really, truly bad stylists out there who think it's OK to do something other than what you asked for because they have something else in mind. So not OK. I feel bad for the great stylists out there, because the bad ones give them all a bad name. :(

In the end I wound up learning to cut my own hair, not so much because of bad stylists but because it's faster, cheaper, and plenty easy. I can give myself a trim during commercial break if I want to- no having to drive to the salon, wait, sit for the cut, then drive home (and pay for it all on top of it!) Can't beat that! :D

patienceneeded
November 26th, 2013, 11:12 PM
I don't understand why so many have such a hard time with hair stylists. Every single stylist that I can remember tried to give me what I wanted. Some of them were better at their job than others. I've definitely walked out with uneven hair before, but other than that - no problem. No one has ever agreed to trim one inch and then cut off three or four inches instead.

I have experienced a miscommunication before, but I had no one to blame but myself. I told her I was going to get rid of the layers when the shortest layer was long enough but only wanted a one-inch trim. Then I kept blathering on about what I planned to do, and she ended up cutting more than I wanted, but she was trying to help me accomplish my goal of eliminating the layers. I learned from it - keep it simple. Tell her what you want NOW, not what you plan in the future.

I second everything Spidermom said. I cannot understand why so many people have had horrible experiences. It can't be that every stylist I saw was (luckily) good at his/her job. It can't be that I'm the world's most effective communicator...

Yes, I have had cuts that did not turn out as planned, but at least 50% of the blame was on me, and probably as much 100% of the blame was on me at times. Keep it simple and be precise. Being calm helps too. If you go into the consult or appointment clearly terrified and fearful, or expecting to walk out "butchered" you are only setting yourself and your stylist up for disappointment and failure. You get much of what you look for in the world. If you are looking to have a horrible time at the salon, guess what? You will likely end up having a horrible time. And so will your stylist.

Flor
November 27th, 2013, 12:30 AM
I second everything Spidermom said. I cannot understand why so many people have had horrible experiences.

Could it be location?? I know the bigger the city and the trendier the salon, the more likely they ain't gonna listen. When I went for haircuts in the place I grew up (small city, small salons away from main streets), I always got what I wanted. My mom still goes to the very same hairdresser she's known for years and gets very nice treatment every time and that hairdresser actually talked her out of getting coloring and perming. Where I live now, it's a nightmare. It's not that they don't listen or don't understand what I'm saying, they just don't CARE. They fancy themselves beauty experts and play "extreme makeover" on everyone.

UltraBella
November 27th, 2013, 01:14 AM
I've never had a problem with stylists cutting off more than I requested. I have had one, however, not cut as much. She wanted me to "work my way into" such a big change & I was ready. I ended up disappointed that I had to return a week later to go shorter. No extra charge, she just wanted to make sure I wouldn't regret it.

Syaoransbear
November 27th, 2013, 01:38 AM
You have to be pretty clear, but sometimes they don't listen anyway. My last hair dresser I would tell her VERY CLEARLY to not pull the dye through my hair. I didn't care if it didn't look perfectly blended, I didn't want my length brightened up, I just wanted less damage. She'd do it anyway. Every time. What the heck. She did at least listen to me when I told her how much to cut off.

I think there's two kinds of hair stylists: the kind who want to please the client, and the kind who think your head is their canvas for their future masterpiece and they have a "I know best" attitude and your demands are just hampering their creativity. The latter are more likely to do what they think will look the best, regardless of what you want.

ErinLeigh
November 27th, 2013, 01:49 AM
Maybe tell them upfront if they take off anymore than one inch as shown you will not pay or tip. People DO care about money. THAT they understand.

ErinLeigh
November 27th, 2013, 01:52 AM
I second going to a barber. I did that once in my town. Went like this.

I walk in, Barber looks up and me, "I don't do lady-cuts."

Me, "I know. I want one inch off, straight across the bottom."

Him, not sure about this. "That's it?"

Me, "That's it. I don't want some scissor-happy loon who's going to try to upsell me on highlights, lowlights, and a complicated cut. I want one inch off the bottom."

Him, "Okay fine." Hands me a comb. "Comb it yourself, though."

I do, then hop on the chair. He cuts EXACTLY one inch right across the bottom. Charged me $5. I tipped him $10 and left. :lol:

Horray for grumpy old men barbers. The best part was the other three older men just hanging out talking at the time. It was probably the strangest thing they'd seen in awhile. XD

GREAT STORY! I have been to a barber before so this made me lol at the memory.

ErinLeigh
November 27th, 2013, 01:53 AM
I have to post this question because maybe some of you can provide some input: what is it with stylists always wanting to cut off so much more than the amount you requested? Are some just incapable of understanding measurements? I know the argument how 'one inch' can mean different things to different people, but when I show what 'one inch' is, why do they always insist on cutting 3 or 4? I've been told they probably 'saw damage and decided it would be better to cut it off now', but the stylists are always telling me how healthy my hair is and wanting to know what products I'm using and my haircare routine, so I know that certainly isn't the reason. Is it that they just don't care and figure I have so much length I won't notice the long hair on the floor? It's so frustrating!

I haven't been to a salon since last March just to have some repair done after a particularly nasty haircutting blunder courtesy of Great Clips, and even after showing the stylist how much I wanted trimmed, she still doubled the amount. Some have told me in the past that in order to avoid this ordeal, I should just start cutting my hair myself, but because of my back condition, I honestly can't without very severe pain. I don't even trust my relatives or friends with my hair because knowing them, they'd cut off two feet - I know this seems harsh to say, but they're pretty much jerks when it comes to my hair length.

Have any of you noticed this happening? Besides flat out showing the stylist what I want and still not getting it, I don't know what else to do. Any suggestions?

OP do you have layers or are you looking for just a trim on the bottom?

Coolcombination
November 27th, 2013, 05:59 AM
If I'm planning on a 2" trim, I ask for an inch and a half. This seems to keep me happy, if she cuts 2", fine. If she cuts 2.5" that's only .5" more than I wanted. If she cuts 1.5" then I go home and cut the very tips off my braid tassel.

chen bao jun
November 27th, 2013, 08:59 AM
This is an interesting theory. I grew up in NYC.
I have also seen advice to stylists online that actually SAYS that the client is unlikely to know what's best for them and that the stylist ought to give them something that looks good 'because you don't want them walking around saying they went to you with their hair looking bad, its a bad advertisement'.
I can understand why the good stylists don't want to be lumped in with the bad stylists (which I try not to do) but I guess I don't understand the disbelief in somel quarters that there are stylists out there who deliberately ignore you and do what they want and that it is NOT your fault (except if you go to them again). This has happened to me so very often, and happened to other people I know and its very distressing, really.
It may be that it's more likely to happen to some of us than others. I'm a curly and many many stylists have no idea how to cut curly hair and won't tell you so upfront. I know that now, but I didn't always. I also have very thick hair which annoys some stylists (more work) and seems to universally make them start questioning about 'thinning' 'layering' and things I don't like. Also, I happen to like wearing one length unstyled hair and I am sorry, but it is true that many stylists can't STAND that. Some (not all) see virgin unstyled thick hair and all they see is a canvas for their 'art' and then they don't listen, they get going. This has happened to me all too many times and please don't tell me its because I didn't express myself properly--how could a person possibly hear 'trim it a little' as 'give me the latest fancy layered style'? They used to turn me around and I can't see anyway without my glasses and there it was.
It wouldn't happen to me nowadays (because I'm not going within miles of stylists, good or bad) but it does happen, please stop saying that it doesn't.

Could it be location?? I know the bigger the city and the trendier the salon, the more likely they ain't gonna listen. When I went for haircuts in the place I grew up (small city, small salons away from main streets), I always got what I wanted. My mom still goes to the very same hairdresser she's known for years and gets very nice treatment every time and that hairdresser actually talked her out of getting coloring and perming. Where I live now, it's a nightmare. It's not that they don't listen or don't understand what I'm saying, they just don't CARE. They fancy themselves beauty experts and play "extreme makeover" on everyone.

spidermom
November 27th, 2013, 09:19 AM
Could it be location?? I know the bigger the city and the trendier the salon, the more likely they ain't gonna listen. When I went for haircuts in the place I grew up (small city, small salons away from main streets), I always got what I wanted. My mom still goes to the very same hairdresser she's known for years and gets very nice treatment every time and that hairdresser actually talked her out of getting coloring and perming. Where I live now, it's a nightmare. It's not that they don't listen or don't understand what I'm saying, they just don't CARE. They fancy themselves beauty experts and play "extreme makeover" on everyone.

Maybe that's it. I've heard stories on here about rude things people say to them about their hair, and that doesn't happen around here (maybe rarely, but not to me). However, I've walked into unknown salons in St. Louis, Missouri (the biggest city I've lived in), and walked out satisfied. I don't think that people who describe very bad experiences are lying, but it's hard to believe that I've lucked out every single time I've impulsively walked into a salon.

Leafy
November 27th, 2013, 10:04 AM
You know, this makes me want to open up a salon that's truly 320% dedicated to the guests. Clients. Whichever word you prefer. :)
Because honestly, if people aren't happy with a service or product, they're not going to want it again are they. And it's sort of a goal of mine to be a really great hairdresser. ^_^
Of course, they'll be long-hair-friendly. Doing someone's hair isn't just about making them look good, it's about making them feel good too. If they're not happy with what you've done, you've failed.

Plus if I ever have a rude employee in the future that call anyone a bitch, or do anything unacceptable for that matter, it's immediate dismissal. People are just so stupid if they think they can get away with such bad behaviour. Plus it's not fair when they make the rest of the salon look bad. You know, one bad apple spoils the bunch and whatnot.

I really think the hairdressing industry needs a makeover themselves and actually look at themselves. It should be about the people they serve, not about the people who work in the salon and think they own the rights as to do whatever they want with other people's hair.

Bagginslover
November 27th, 2013, 10:05 AM
I think a combination of factors is the culprit here.

-Stylists go to 'hair school'. They have a lot of commercial hair knowledge, much of which doesn't tally with LHC type teachings
-Measuring by eye. Most people cannot do it. I trained as an engineer, and had to measure things very accurately in both inches and CM, I can measure very well by eye, and I often forget others cannot.
-Language. We are a diverse world, that now mingles very freely. Words and phrases can mean different things to different people, and sometimes not understood at all, even between native speakers of the same language.
-Apathy. Some people really don't care.
-Creativity. Long hair is seen by some as a blank canvas, begging to be turned into something beautiful and fashionable.

A combination of the above, as well as other factors I'm sure I've not thought of, will contribute to an unsatisfying salon experience. To minimise these factors, you need to talk to your stylist, tell them what you want, before they get out the scissors, ask them to repeat back and demonstrate your wishes before they begin. If they ask you to tilt your head so you cannot see a mirror, ask for a hand held one so you can see them-in fact, ask for a hand held mirror anyway, or take your own with you (tell them you're anxious, they can't understand if you don't tell them). Show them with a tape or ruler, and ask then to show you when they pick up your hair.

If they won't do any of this, with you asking nicely and explaining your anxiety, they fall into the apathetic group, and you should leave. If they are happy to do this, and cut it just right (how can they go wrong after all that, and you watching), hang on to them!

leslissocool
November 27th, 2013, 10:06 AM
This is an interesting theory. I grew up in NYC.
I have also seen advice to stylists online that actually SAYS that the client is unlikely to know what's best for them and that the stylist ought to give them something that looks good 'because you don't want them walking around saying they went to you with their hair looking bad, its a bad advertisement'.

This, THIS was my freaking issue. My BFF in hair school told me that her teachers (it's a BIG name school, expensive and lots of training that she came from) tell people that the public don't know what's best for their hair, and they can't let them walk out without providing their IDEA of best work. Yeah, that means cutting and layering to A LOT of those stylists.


My horror story? I walked in with hip length hair, asked for face framing layes (I told her, I wanted to cut to waist/bsl and I wanted face framing layers, used those specific words and showed her a picture of the exact style I wanted) and the lady cut to shoulder and the layers were so horrible it looked like a mullet. Someone else had to come fix it and I walked out with a monroe cut. In SoCal, in a very expensive salon, I should have gone to supercuts instead of spending my hard enrned money on something "nice". It's going to be 8 years since I went to a salon, I started to have my sister cut my hair (no stylist, but she did great).


Honestly, I think there is no better way to communicate than "face framing layers" and a picture. Yet, alas, it was butchered.


I had a friend through high school that would only have her hair cut in Bulgaria, with her stylist. She would let it grow for a year and then come back with waist length hair, layers and highlights that looked really great grown out too. She had a similar hair butchering experience, and would rather not look for a new stylist and just grow her hair until she traveled. Her stylists was amazing though.

Kaelee
November 27th, 2013, 10:29 AM
All these stories of stylists just blatantly doing what they want with clients' hair make my brain hurt. I've had awful haircuts, but it was because the stylist in question truly sucked and also had an attitude problem and a bad day to boot. She really thought she was giving me what I wanted but missed the mark entirely and I wound up with a hair cut that looked like it'd been done by a 6 year old.

I actually think there should be some sort of legal recourse against stylists who blatantly ignore your wishes and do what they want. Those instances of "I want 1" off the ends of my waist length hair" somehow translates into "chin length bob with layers" by the time their done with your hair. That's just so not OK on so many levels. As far as I'm concerned, if someone hacks several inches off my hair without my permission, whether I'm sitting in a salon chair or not, that is assault. (and I'm NOT talking about honest mistakes, here, I'm talking about "blatantly did something other than what I specifically told them to do, to a part of my body").

Yea, I take the hard line on this one. But seriously. Doing something completely different than what the client asked for is NOT OK. I don't know how it got to the point that it's viewed as "OK" in the beauty industry...if I take my car in for some body work, and it comes back a completely different color than what I wanted, and the person at the shop tells me "Oh I thought it looked better this way! Blue cars are ALL THE RAGE now! You need to be driving a BLUE car!" and still expect payment, that would totally, completely, unquestionably, NOT be OK. So why is it OK if it's my hair??!

ladyfey
November 27th, 2013, 01:23 PM
I've said this before, but when I was in cosmetology school (hated it, dropped out) they told us point blank to lie to clients. They said that clients are billboards for us and the hair needs to look good, no matter what the client wants. So, for example, if the client says absolutely no hairspray, lie and use hairspray, calling it something else. That was one school's attitude anyway.

Leafy
November 27th, 2013, 01:32 PM
if the client says absolutely no hairspray, lie and use hairspray, calling it something else. That was one school's attitude anyway.
What if a client was allergic to something in hairspray?
Regardless, that's just downright wrong. When the client asks something specific - you do as you're told. They're paying for the service, and only they have the rights to decide what happens to their hair, unless they have clearly given the stylist free will as a client has expressed themselves being unsure what to do with their hair - they 'just want it to look nice' (I'm like that sometimes. :laugh:)

Lying to clients is a big no no. That's as bad as lying on advertisements. It's misleading and there can be big punishments. Hair should be no different.

I could rant about this forever.

Artisticat
November 27th, 2013, 02:20 PM
They used to turn me around and I can't see anyway without my glasses and there it was.
It wouldn't happen to me nowadays (because I'm not going within miles of stylists, good or bad) but it does happen, please stop saying that it doesn't.

All what you said and more chen bao jun - she turned me around too!
I told the stylist I wanted just a few very subtle highlights over my half virgin hair (I know better now). I told her I didn't want to be touching up more than 3 times a year. She examined my "natural" hair with a few sparklies and crinkled her nose while saying how drab my hair looked. She also said I needed a few layers to get rid of the "broom" effect.
So in the process of highlighting - she put a toner/color on the rest of my hair unbeknownst to me. This would mean touchups every 6-8 weeks which went specifically against what I had requested.
Instead of long face framing layers - she razored them - one side terribly uneven. Over half my hair thickness gone in mere minutes!
I look back in shame of how gullible and stupid I was. I guess I got caught up in the moment...trusting her more than I should...thinking she would make me look beautiful. I felt I looked like a soccer mom (no offense to women who like to wear their hair that way - it just isn't "me".)

Artisticat
November 27th, 2013, 02:28 PM
Maybe that's it. I've heard stories on here about rude things people say to them about their hair, and that doesn't happen around here (maybe rarely, but not to me). However, I've walked into unknown salons in St. Louis, Missouri (the biggest city I've lived in), and walked out satisfied. I don't think that people who describe very bad experiences are lying, but it's hard to believe that I've lucked out every single time I've impulsively walked into a salon.

I think some people exude that "don't mess with me" vibe from the start. I'm more meek (not weak) in my day-to-day approach, but I do learn fast!
Don't go back for seconds. :cool:

jeanniet
November 27th, 2013, 04:46 PM
This is an interesting theory. I grew up in NYC.
I have also seen advice to stylists online that actually SAYS that the client is unlikely to know what's best for them and that the stylist ought to give them something that looks good 'because you don't want them walking around saying they went to you with their hair looking bad, its a bad advertisement'.
I can understand why the good stylists don't want to be lumped in with the bad stylists (which I try not to do) but I guess I don't understand the disbelief in somel quarters that there are stylists out there who deliberately ignore you and do what they want and that it is NOT your fault (except if you go to them again). This has happened to me so very often, and happened to other people I know and its very distressing, really.
It may be that it's more likely to happen to some of us than others. I'm a curly and many many stylists have no idea how to cut curly hair and won't tell you so upfront. I know that now, but I didn't always. I also have very thick hair which annoys some stylists (more work) and seems to universally make them start questioning about 'thinning' 'layering' and things I don't like. Also, I happen to like wearing one length unstyled hair and I am sorry, but it is true that many stylists can't STAND that. Some (not all) see virgin unstyled thick hair and all they see is a canvas for their 'art' and then they don't listen, they get going. This has happened to me all too many times and please don't tell me its because I didn't express myself properly--how could a person possibly hear 'trim it a little' as 'give me the latest fancy layered style'? They used to turn me around and I can't see anyway without my glasses and there it was.
It wouldn't happen to me nowadays (because I'm not going within miles of stylists, good or bad) but it does happen, please stop saying that it doesn't.

With thick 3c hair, I can see where your experiences would be more bad than good, because I don't think many stylists would have a clue how to approach your hair, and obviously going at it from a type 1-2 mindset isn't going to work. Even if you could walk them through it step-by-step it would be hard to get it right without experience with that type of hair. For that matter, not all curly specialists are good, either!

I'm not sure why I haven't had trouble. Mind you, I've gotten some bad cuts, but always because the stylist did what I told them to and I didn't know what I was talking about. I probably should have been told "No" a few times, lol.

chen bao jun
November 27th, 2013, 08:03 PM
Oh, goodness. If I could count the times my hair got sprayed and they told me it was 'oil sheen' or something or the other.
Now I have to wonder.

I've said this before, but when I was in cosmetology school (hated it, dropped out) they told us point blank to lie to clients. They said that clients are billboards for us and the hair needs to look good, no matter what the client wants. So, for example, if the client says absolutely no hairspray, lie and use hairspray, calling it something else. That was one school's attitude anyway.

chen bao jun
November 27th, 2013, 08:09 PM
With thick 3c hair, I can see where your experiences would be more bad than good, because I don't think many stylists would have a clue how to approach your hair, and obviously going at it from a type 1-2 mindset isn't going to work. Even if you could walk them through it step-by-step it would be hard to get it right without experience with that type of hair. For that matter, not all curly specialists are good, either!
.
Very possibly my hairtype does have something to do with it. Not only does it not work like type 1 or 2 hair, but it doesn't behave like type 4 hair, either--type 4 is curls, which should work the same but my hair is coarse and low porosity, which is very different if you are used to working with a fine hair type, which most type 4 is.
Thank God for LHC, that's all I have to say. And I am so grateful for the hair dressers who hang out on here and have such a respectful attitude towards what is, you know, somebody else's body part. Hair may grow back and it may not hurt when you cut it, but it's part of someone and not only part of their body but part of their identity and how they wish to present themselves to the world. This deserves respect --and gentleness.

chen bao jun
November 27th, 2013, 08:11 PM
Oh, heavens, Leslissocool, I am so sorry this happened to you. It sounds truly traumatic.
You have beautiful hair now again, but still...

This, THIS was my freaking issue. My BFF in hair school told me that her teachers (it's a BIG name school, expensive and lots of training that she came from) tell people that the public don't know what's best for their hair, and they can't let them walk out without providing their IDEA of best work. Yeah, that means cutting and layering to A LOT of those stylists.


My horror story? I walked in with hip length hair, asked for face framing layes (I told her, I wanted to cut to waist/bsl and I wanted face framing layers, used those specific words and showed her a picture of the exact style I wanted) and the lady cut to shoulder and the layers were so horrible it looked like a mullet. Someone else had to come fix it and I walked out with a monroe cut. In SoCal, in a very expensive salon, I should have gone to supercuts instead of spending my hard enrned money on something "nice". It's going to be 8 years since I went to a salon, I started to have my sister cut my hair (no stylist, but she did great).


Honestly, I think there is no better way to communicate than "face framing layers" and a picture. Yet, alas, it was butchered.


I had a friend through high school that would only have her hair cut in Bulgaria, with her stylist. She would let it grow for a year and then come back with waist length hair, layers and highlights that looked really great grown out too. She had a similar hair butchering experience, and would rather not look for a new stylist and just grow her hair until she traveled. Her stylists was amazing though.

chen bao jun
November 27th, 2013, 08:15 PM
Exactly. You phrase it so well. Why do some (not all) fail to understand this? Sometimes its worse than just the color! Sometimes its like they put put those giant wheels on it and painted pictures and slogans like it was NASCAR when you just wanted, you know, your car to come back to you tuned up but still the same discreet grey!
IF car mechanics did this, people would have to learn to do their own repairs and tune ups... It's no different.


Yea, I take the hard line on this one. But seriously. Doing something completely different than what the client asked for is NOT OK. I don't know how it got to the point that it's viewed as "OK" in the beauty industry...if I take my car in for some body work, and it comes back a completely different color than what I wanted, and the person at the shop tells me "Oh I thought it looked better this way! Blue cars are ALL THE RAGE now! You need to be driving a BLUE car!" and still expect payment, that would totally, completely, unquestionably, NOT be OK. So why is it OK if it's my hair??!

Kaelee
November 27th, 2013, 09:55 PM
Exactly. You phrase it so well. Why do some (not all) fail to understand this? Sometimes its worse than just the color! Sometimes its like they put put those giant wheels on it and painted pictures and slogans like it was NASCAR when you just wanted, you know, your car to come back to you tuned up but still the same discreet grey!
IF car mechanics did this, people would have to learn to do their own repairs and tune ups... It's no different.

Oh, the mental images!

I'm just going to leave this here... :whistle:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a133/Danmara/1455055_563337447076040_1227604797_n_zpsdabda136.j pg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/Danmara/media/1455055_563337447076040_1227604797_n_zpsdabda136.j pg.html)

chen bao jun
November 28th, 2013, 07:21 AM
That's hilarious Kaelee!
And so true.

Oh, the mental images!

I'm just going to leave this here... :whistle:

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a133/Danmara/1455055_563337447076040_1227604797_n_zpsdabda136.j pg (http://s10.photobucket.com/user/Danmara/media/1455055_563337447076040_1227604797_n_zpsdabda136.j pg.html)

wrh452
November 28th, 2013, 08:41 AM
Oh my gosh. I love the ambulance! Would come in handy in places where it snows a lot.

Sometimes, stylists just suck. I have worked with enough of them to know. Thankfully, not for long.

Even me going to the people I work with and seeing their work, I have gotten some bad cuts.

My first bad one as an adult was in cosmetology school, but you can expect that. I had some of my best and worst cuts there.

My second bad one was by my first manager. I told her to just do what she thought was best. Well, I ended up with a razored mullet and short uneven bangs. That was bad.

And my latest one was by a previous manager again. Horribly uneven layers, and the length was even uneven. And I had my hair cut my him many times and I have known him for 2 years. He knows how picky I am and knows what I like. I even sat down and told him specifically what I wanted, and I know he does good work. Oh well.

leslissocool
November 28th, 2013, 11:15 AM
Oh, heavens, Leslissocool, I am so sorry this happened to you. It sounds truly traumatic.
You have beautiful hair now again, but still...

Thank you, it was indeed. My philosophy for a while has been "I'd rather screw it myself and have only myself to blame". And that mentality works for me. I've met amazing stylists but I now live very far away. I'm going to try the word of mouth in LHC and go where a fellow sister goes :lol:.


wrh452

http://www.funsted.com/pdata/t/l-2295.jpg

tigereye
November 28th, 2013, 04:30 PM
I've said this before, but when I was in cosmetology school (hated it, dropped out) they told us point blank to lie to clients. They said that clients are billboards for us and the hair needs to look good, no matter what the client wants. So, for example, if the client says absolutely no hairspray, lie and use hairspray, calling it something else. That was one school's attitude anyway.


What if a client was allergic to something in hairspray?
*snip*
Lying to clients is a big no no. That's as bad as lying on advertisements. It's misleading and there can be big punishments. Hair should be no different.

This, so, so much. I'm allergic to two main things in hair products: SLS/SLES and fragrance. That causes big problems for many reasons:
1) most Salon-brands of shampoo are laden with SLS, SLES or both, but I get insane itchies and sores on my scalp that last for an average of a week, sometimes two which KILLs when trying to detangle even super-gently
2) since I can't use the big sulphates that means most cones are a no-no since I can't get rid of build-up and most "products" used in salons (conditioner, leave-in, "oil" sprays, "protectants"(even though I don't use heat), and so on) contain cones, especially ammodimethicone, build-up of which turns my soft hair into straw
3) fragrance is in almost everything, and the exact fragrances are pretty much never mentioned (on ingredients it just says "fragrance" or "parfum". I believe it is an essential oil from one genus of trees and shrubs, since I get bad contact dermatitis from them too, just by touching them, but that doesn't help. How many times have you ever read an exact list of fragrances used outside of homemade products? Ever seen an exact ingredient list for a perfume?) which makes it virtually impossible for me to know without spot-testing whether I am going to be allergic.
4) fragrance is pretty common in hairsprays. In aerosol form (hairspray and deodorant are worst), fragrances are even worse for me, since one I'm allergic to can cause my throat to constrict (dangerous!), and give me a rash on any exposed skin since the mist tends to be so fine and spreads further.

Unless they want a law-suit for putting me in hospital, they better not come near me with some dodgy hairspray just because they "think it's better that way".

There are so many things wrong with not doing what the client wants. I'm just on the extreme end of the spectrum of exactly what can happen if people don't do what I specifically tell them.

Wildcat Diva
November 28th, 2013, 04:49 PM
I had a great experience with a lady barber, (she owned the barber shop) who did exactly what I asked, taking off about an inch this past spring. I went about two days post wash, and used the tangle teezer right before I went in, so the combing was no big deal. She cut my hair dry, and it was still pretty wavy, but not as much as when it's fingercombed. She did discuss her method of pulling the side hairs to the side straight down, instead of all straight down my back. This resulted in a slight U shape when my hair is all moved to the back, and I was okay with this. She did a really good job. I'll go back after I make it to waist. Probably next fall. She should still be there, unless her shop closes down, and I don't think it will.

chen bao jun
November 28th, 2013, 05:53 PM
What a find she is.