Questions about diy bleach

[DarkCurls]

Hi everyone,


I'm kind of jumping the gun, as this isn't something I intend to do just now, but I have a lousy internet connection on campus so I'm taking advantage of the fact that I'm home for once. I have a few questions about bleach.
I intend to dip-dye my hair eventually, once I deem it's "long enough" (not for ages yet). I want to take advantage of the fact that I'm young and can do what I want with my hair at the moment (no job).
My hair is probably around a level 3 (guesswork), basically dark enough that I spent five minutes convincing my boyfriend it wasn't black, but light enough to get reddish highlights in the summer. I'd like to dye the tips red, or a turquoise or teal color, so for the color to show up I imagine I'd have to bring it to at least a level 7-8 – a sort of orangey color would be enough for red, but I'd need a light yellow for the blue. That's a lot of bleaching.



I know bleach is damaging and there's no way around that. Even if coconut oil can help I realise it's not a miracle worker. When I bleach, I'll do it myself at home, my reasoning being that it's way cheaper. Even if I do a terrible job of it and completely wreck my ends, it will only be a few inches that I can cut off and I'll try to avoid coming back to you in tears, so you won't even have to say 'I told you so.' :-)

But to hopefully avoid it coming to that, here are my questions.





What volume developer would I need to use? I remember reading on LHC, and elsewhere, that it was possible to use 20 volume developer and simply leave it on longer than 30 or 40 volume developer, even for brown hair. But most other sources say at least 30 volume is necessary for dark hair like mine. I want to stay away from 40 vol, but will use if you think it's necessary. Thoughts?
Would 50g of bleach powder (mixed with correct proportions of developer) be enough if I'm just dying the ends?


Is it better (as in less damaging) to leave a lower volume developer for a longer amount of time, or a higher volume developer for less time? Is it better to bleach it twice with a lower volume developer (waiting 1-2 weeks in between), or once with a higher volume developer?
Can you dilute developer with tap water to lower its volume? (For example, would half tap water and half 40 volume developer yield 20 volume developer, or is my chemistry completely flawed?)


What can I expect from bleached hair? I've never done anything chemical to my hair and have no idea how it would react. Does it feel dry? Tangly? Rough? Mushy? Yeah, I really don't know.


Is there a way to avoid the bleach messing up my curl pattern? I know it can straighten curls (damage)... I'd hate for that to happen and would probably cut if it did.


Last question for now... This (http://http://www.pinterest.com/pin/30962316161423432/) or that (http://www.pinterest.com/pin/30962316161423416/)?

Thank you! :)

[melesine]

My daughter used the Manic Panic flash lightening kit and it worked great on her dark brown hair. She used the 30 volume and it got her hair white. Sorry I can't help with your other questions.

[niky45]

pfffiu. I thought you were going to use a homemade recipe, not a boxed bleaching kit. DON'T ever try a homemade recipe for this. Bleaching kits are much more gentle and will provide better results... (you know how i know this, don't you?)

Well. your answers. Everybody seems to think that the two-applications would be gentler, as your hair will have some time to recover, even if it's only a few days. My hair thinks that, too.

My little horror story: I bleached it from (chemically dyed) deep red, to blonde, and then (permanent) colored it to orange. In the same evening and without conditioner until the end. NEVER do this. My hair survived, but I think it would survive the apocalypse. It literally felt like straw. A DEEP conditioner full of silicones did the trick, but every time i washed it, that horrible feeling again. straw. ugh. My poor little hair.

I however have no experience with temporary dyes. BUT, I strongly suggest to do a permanent treatment here. A kinda light red (as in... not that light, but still red, not dark red) can be achieved in just one step. And since it isn't that light, is not that damaging.

I mean, the thing is: the more bleach you use, the more damage you will get. period. If you first go blonde-ish, that's a lot to lighten. More if you want to go lighter... I have never been past that banana yellow stage (my color is a tad lighter than yours), and its VERY damaging to get there. A rich red at most a 6, so you only have to go down at most 4 tones (It your boyfriend saw it black, then you can actually be a 2). A blonde light enough for manic panic red to show is at least a 8ish. for blue.... no idea, but lighter.

As for how can you dilute the bleach... plain conditioner. I tried to use it to avoid getting to that banana yellow, and staying in the orangey tones. It didn't actually worked. Yes, everything was slowed down, but I still got to the banana yellow.

Oh. not sure about developer's vol. But with less than 30 you won't do much. Anyway, if you just buy a kit, it has everything you need. Perhaps a bit too strong, but... It's the only thing I know can lift even chemical dye (WAY harder to lighten than natural color... In "the horror story" it turned only orangey-brown, nothing near the banana-yellow my roots showed...)

PS: yeah, I have been playing with permanent box dyes for a long while. As a rule of thumb: the more lightening, the more damage. And believe me: it IS damaging. To get to some kind of blonde, your ends are gonna be kinda straw-like. Coney-conditioner can HIDE that, but never actually fix it. So, try to do the least lightening possible.

[DarkCurls]

Thanks melesine. Manic Panic isn't easily found in France and I don't want to order online (though I will if what's found locally doesn't work for me), so I don't think I'll use their kit, but bleach powder & 30 volume developer is easily found.

And thank you niky. :) I guess the title is misleading, but I've never even thought of using a homemade recipe (do those exist?). I don't intend to use permanent dyes, because I really want to have fun with color. When I run out of one, I'll probably try another one.
I'll strand test anyway, to see how light I have to get my hair for the color to show up.
Thanks for explaining about conditioner and bleach... basically useless in your opinion?
Can't find kits here, I'll buy the developer & bleach powder separately, but I don't see how that would change anything. I guess I may end up going with 30 after all. In for a penny, in for a dime.

I know it's going to be damaged. It's something I want to try anyway. I'll try not to complain afterward. :p

ETA: I should probably ask my mother's hairdresser (and I will if I don't find an answer here), but a new question came to me. My mother has hair at least as dark as mine, possible darker (hard to tell since the most I've ever seen of it are her roots and pictures of her when she was young), but she dyes it a very light blond: close to this (http://www.wiggoddess.com/images/26H.jpg), but kind of gradual, with some strands more honey-colored, and others almost platinum. Her hair is fine, but very soft to the touch and doesn't feel damaged (she keeps it between chin and shoulder). What has me at a loss is that this is done at the salon in one step. It's not bleach, and then dye over. It's all done at once, and I have no idea how. If anyone can explain, I'd be grateful.
If not, the stylist is a really nice woman and I'll ask her next time I see her.

[niky45]

There are homemade recipes. For a DISASTER. Thank god I just put it in a little strand. y them, they work fine, and are not the most damaging thing you can do. But they ARE damaging.

About dyes and bleach, I have some experience, so I'll try to answer your questions.

1. Usually common boxed dyes also sell a color that is just bleach. They sell it for if you have black hair and want to go to platinum blonde. Or just want a vivid orange instead of a dark one. Or (the real use for it), you want to bleach a previous darker color. While bleaching virgin hair is quite easy, bleaching (permanent) colored hair is... HARD to say the least.

2. About conditioner and bleach: It HAD effect. The bleaching was slower, and my hair's condition aftewrwards was quite better than without conditioner. I'd just put a bit for the condition, it does help a bit. But the final result will be the same.

3. In the salons they use strong products. I bet that developer (developer=bleach) is 40 vol for sure, or else you could not possibly go from very dark brown to platinum blonde in one step. And the one step thing: (permanent) box dyes usually do that: no matter how dark your virgin hair is, it will turn the color on the box. There are exceptions, but you can kinda count on it. Light blonde colors must bring some kind of 40 vol developer to do that, but they certainly work.

4. not the same as funny colors. (permanent) box dyes only come in natural colors... so no blue for you. And yes, if you want to change colors quite often, better stick to semi-permanent ones. BTW, you can look around for directions, it's kinda the same as manic panic, but I think it's a French brand (anyway, is what us Europeans are supposed to use for a semi-perm dye).

5. I wouldn't ask this kind of things to a hairdresser. She will want to do it for you. My experience is that it can go well, but... she has to be a good hairdresser. My experience about this can be resumed in: I will NEVER go again to a salon to have my hair dyed. Not only is expensive, but if you don't find the right hairdresser... the result can be UGLY. That last time I ended with WHITE higlights on BLACK hair. I just wanted blondish highlights on dark red hair. I did it by myself the next week. And the result was SO MUCH better.

6. yes, you should find bleaching kits in your local drugstore/beauty store/whatever. they are kinda common. here is an example:
http://www.boots.com/en/LOreal-Perfect-Blonde-Creme-Maximum-Bleaching-Kit_929817/ (l'Oreal is a well known brand, I mean. It should not be THAT hard to find. And there a tons of other similar brands... just look in the permanent dyes section, and there shall be at least one. )

[Anje]

I haven't messed with bleach, but I've read a few things around here. Supposedly, if you saturate your hair with coconut oil (the real stuff, like what you'd eat) for at least a few hours before bleaching, then apply bleach to the oily hair, it mitigates a good deal of the damage. The logic behind this is that copper ions from your water tend to be responsible for at least a portion of the damage bleach causes, and supposedly coconut oil will chelate at least a portion of these. I've seen a lot of people here report that their hair didn't feel particularly bad when following this procedure, though without a control it's hard to say what would have happened. It does seem that the oil doesn't interfere with the bleach.

If this copper thing is the case (and I've seen research supporting it), I think I'd add a step by doing an honest-to-goodness chelation on hair while washing with distilled water. I don't fully trust in the powers of cooking oil, I guess, especially with my hard water. Let dry, then apply coconut oil, wait for several hours, then bleach. No guarantees that it would prevent all damage -- you're still bleaching your hair, after all.

[DarkCurls]

Thanks niky45, but I've already found where to buy my bleach and developer. And I won't use permanent box dyes, nope. Bleach powder & developer, and then temporary (as in a few weeks), brightly-colored dyes for me. I don't want a permanent color. Thanks for clarifying about conditioner + bleach. (And I'm pretty sure Directions is not French, you can't find it in stores here. I think they're UK-based.)
And I would just be asking the hairdresser questions, definitely not letting her do it. I don't want to pay for that.

Anje, thanks for the coconut oil tip -- I'd already read about it here and I do plan on doing that. I always have coconut oil on hand and if it can help a little bit with the damage, I'm all for it.
I've never chelated my hair... and I'm not too keen on buying what I need to do it. (Yes, I'm cheap.) I'll think about it, though, because the damage is a bit of a concern for me.

[Firefox7275]

Hi everyone,


I'm kind of jumping the gun, as this isn't something I intend to do just now, but I have a lousy internet connection on campus so I'm taking advantage of the fact that I'm home for once. I have a few questions about bleach.
I intend to dip-dye my hair eventually, once I deem it's "long enough" (not for ages yet). I want to take advantage of the fact that I'm young and can do what I want with my hair at the moment (no job).
My hair is probably around a level 3 (guesswork), basically dark enough that I spent five minutes convincing my boyfriend it wasn't black, but light enough to get reddish highlights in the summer. I'd like to dye the tips red, or a turquoise or teal color, so for the color to show up I imagine I'd have to bring it to at least a level 7-8 – a sort of orangey color would be enough for red, but I'd need a light yellow for the blue. That's a lot of bleaching.



I know bleach is damaging and there's no way around that. Even if coconut oil can help I realise it's not a miracle worker. When I bleach, I'll do it myself at home, my reasoning being that it's way cheaper. Even if I do a terrible job of it and completely wreck my ends, it will only be a few inches that I can cut off and I'll try to avoid coming back to you in tears, so you won't even have to say 'I told you so.' :-)

But to hopefully avoid it coming to that, here are my questions.





What volume developer would I need to use? I remember reading on LHC, and elsewhere, that it was possible to use 20 volume developer and simply leave it on longer than 30 or 40 volume developer, even for brown hair. But most other sources say at least 30 volume is necessary for dark hair like mine. I want to stay away from 40 vol, but will use if you think it's necessary. Thoughts?
Would 50g of bleach powder (mixed with correct proportions of developer) be enough if I'm just dying the ends?


Is it better (as in less damaging) to leave a lower volume developer for a longer amount of time, or a higher volume developer for less time? Is it better to bleach it twice with a lower volume developer (waiting 1-2 weeks in between), or once with a higher volume developer?
Can you dilute developer with tap water to lower its volume? (For example, would half tap water and half 40 volume developer yield 20 volume developer, or is my chemistry completely flawed?)


What can I expect from bleached hair? I've never done anything chemical to my hair and have no idea how it would react. Does it feel dry? Tangly? Rough? Mushy? Yeah, I really don't know.


Is there a way to avoid the bleach messing up my curl pattern? I know it can straighten curls (damage)... I'd hate for that to happen and would probably cut if it did.


Last question for now... This (http://http://www.pinterest.com/pin/30962316161423432/) or that (http://www.pinterest.com/pin/30962316161423416/)?

Thank you! :)



I dye my own hair an unnatural/ bright shade of pink-red, but over a peroxide only (no persulphate bleach) blonde box dye since my base colour is only dark mouse. My naturally wavy hair is not *visibly* damaged and feels soft, but it is much more porous, more prone to pouf/ fluff, needs way more conditioning (I need leave ins) and general babying with proven ingredients (see aftercare below).

You are unlikely to get light enough for blue/ green shades without your ends snapping off or damaging your curl pattern or both, red should be achievable tho and you may not need to go as light as you imagine. IMO run lots of strand tests on shed plughole hair. Red permanent dyes fade like the devil, I highly recommend a high pigment semi permanent like Manic Panic or La Riche Directions. There is no guarantee any 'temporary' colour will be temporary, some pinks and blues are notorious for being impossible to shift even with re-bleaching.

How long you can leave persulphate bleach and it still be effective depends on the formula, ammonia stops working after a time, alternatives do not. The high alkalinity will continue to be damaging however. Again strand tests, strand tests, strand tests. Steer clear of 40 vol peroxide given you are inexperienced, that doesn't give you as much working time and can particularly irritate or burn skin if you are messy.

Research suggests hydrolysed wheat or soy protein can help protect from bleach damage, you might try that as well as coconut oil soaks. Agree chelating may also reduce damage. I highly recommend you start haunting a forum like this one not just relying on LHC.
http://www.hairdyeforum.com/
http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2004/cc055n06/p00553-p00558.pdf

As far as aftercare: coconut oil, hydrolysed protein, ceramides, 18-MEA and panthenol all have proven benefits. FYI this is what damage you are doing
http://www.clinicalservicesjournal.com/Print.aspx?Story=4313
Reasonably priced products you might like include Schwarzkopf Gliss Kur Ultimate Volume conditioner (protein and panthenol) or L'Oreal Elvive Full Restore 5 conditioner (ceramides, protein, water soluble silicone) - I have successfully used both as leave ins even tho they are technically wash outs.

[Bagginslover]

I haven't messed with bleach, but I've read a few things around here. Supposedly, if you saturate your hair with coconut oil (the real stuff, like what you'd eat) for at least a few hours before bleaching, then apply bleach to the oily hair, it mitigates a good deal of the damage. The logic behind this is that copper ions from your water tend to be responsible for at least a portion of the damage bleach causes, and supposedly coconut oil will chelate at least a portion of these. I've seen a lot of people here report that their hair didn't feel particularly bad when following this procedure, though without a control it's hard to say what would have happened. It does seem that the oil doesn't interfere with the bleach.

If this copper thing is the case (and I've seen research supporting it), I think I'd add a step by doing an honest-to-goodness chelation on hair while washing with distilled water. I don't fully trust in the powers of cooking oil, I guess, especially with my hard water. Let dry, then apply coconut oil, wait for several hours, then bleach. No guarantees that it would prevent all damage -- you're still bleaching your hair, after all.

As far as the bolded part goes- I've bleached at home using the same product, both with, and without coconut oil (though at different times) and found the time with the oil to both develop faster, and the hair feel better afterwards.

Not a perfect control I realise, but decent none the less ;)

[Almendra]

What volume developer would I need to use? I remember reading on LHC, and elsewhere, that it was possible to use 20 volume developer and simply leave it on longer than 30 or 40 volume developer, even for brown hair. But most other sources say at least 30 volume is necessary for dark hair like mine. I want to stay away from 40 vol, but will use if you think it's necessary. Thoughts?
Would 50g of bleach powder (mixed with correct proportions of developer) be enough if I'm just dying the ends?

Is it better (as in less damaging) to leave a lower volume developer for a longer amount of time, or a higher volume developer for less time? Is it better to bleach it twice with a lower volume developer (waiting 1-2 weeks in between), or once with a higher volume developer?
Can you dilute developer with tap water to lower its volume? (For example, would half tap water and half 40 volume developer yield 20 volume developer, or is my chemistry completely flawed?)



It's true that a high volume developer will give you a stronger result, but of course, more damage. I recomend you start with a 20 volume developer an then, after 2 or 3 week of extremely care apply 20 or 10 volume developer again. It can require a third application if the color is not the expected to you. But always, don't leave the product in your hair for more than 30 or 40 minutes.

Always start the application in the lenght and leave it for 15-20 minutes ans then apply the rest of the product in the roots, for an equal color all over your hair.

I read somewhere in LHC about coconut oil bleaching... maybe this will work for you.


What can I expect from bleached hair? I've never done anything chemical to my hair and have no idea how it would react. Does it feel dry? Tangly? Rough? Mushy? Yeah, I really don't know.

Is there a way to avoid the bleach messing up my curl pattern? I know it can straighten curls (damage)... I'd hate for that to happen and would probably cut if it did.

It extremely depends of how resistant is your hair and how much care you take of if before and after the bleaching (and of course the process of bleaching you pick itself). I know that curly hair could be delicate, but if you are cautious and patient, maybe your hair won't be as damaged.
.


Last question for now... This or that?


I can see the first link, but the second one looks pretty cool :o

[wrh452]

I would start with 20 and if it doesn't do enough, wait a few weeks and do 30. You can dilute developer by either using conditioner or distilled water. Try not to use tap.

[DarkCurls]

Firefox, thank you for the wealth of information and advice, and especially for the links to the forums.
Almendra, thanks for answering my questions. :) I'll only be applying to the very ends though, definitely not the roots. :)
wrh452, thanks also. I'll strand test the 20 volume developer, guess I'll see. I hope it works, I'd hate to have to buy 20, realise it doesn't work, and then go out and buy a higher volume. :)

[niky45]

Your hair is very dark, and you need a very light shade, so I'll go straight for the 30 vol developer.
hmmm... or perhaps two applications of the 20 vol one, could work, and since you can let your hair to rest a few days in between, that could be better....

I'm always the "there's no time to do tests, I want it NOW" girl, so I'll go with the 30 vol one, and if not strong enough, I would do another application (not on the same day because my hair is still hair and not steel, but the next one), but... you will be better if you do some tests first. (I know you said you'd do, but... just so you know my opinion. )

Keep in mind: just ONE application of the 20 vol developer isn't going to be enough. maybe neither one of the 30 vol one (not sure how light you need to get your hair, but.. what I think is 30 vol, gives me BANANA YELLOW on my dark brown (tone 2) hair ).

[DarkCurls]

Guess I'll see. Thanks for sharing your experience. Since it will be my first time experimenting with bleach, I'll definitely test it out on shed hairs first, then on a small piece of hair still on my head.
And yeah, I didn't think 1 application would be enough, but that's what strand tests are for -- to see how many times & for how long I should bleach.

Banana yellow would be light enough for a red color, though, wouldn't it?

[red-again]

I don't know if I'm allowed to give the name of another forum here, if not, mods I apologise and please remove but if I am, there is a uk forum, www.hairdyeforum.com and the advice there is amazing.
But coconut oil liberally before bleach. Also mixing a bit of shampoo into the bleach mix to in effect dilute the ph really helps. (Called bleach bath or soap cap)And at least two weeks of babying in between bleach sessions to allow the hair to recover / give a real idea of damage caused.
I would also suggest avoiding teal/ blue as the damage for dark hair would be huge, you'd need to get it to the colour of the inside of a banana skin to get a good and true (not muddy) result.
Reds, pinks and purples are much, much easier and take to darker hair.

Good luck

[red-again]

Oh mid ginger is light enough for red. I've done it and had very good results

[niky45]

Banana yellow would be light enough for a red color, though, wouldn't it?

not sure about semi-permanent dyes, but for a permanent one, a light/medium brown is enough. although those contain peroxide, so... for a semi-permanent you'll need a lighter color. but yes, looks like banana yellow will be more than enough for the red tones.

not the same for other shades. blue ones need a lighter base in order not to go green, i think.

oh. and about the red: you better pick one COOL red (kinda pinkish), or you'll end with orange hair. that's what happened to mine when I used henna, anyways. and since the pigment process is somewhat similar... I mean, semi-perms are supposed to be deposit-only, what means they just sit over your hair....

anyway, you better start collecting hair. you'll have to do a LOT of tests if you want to know how is going to turn up your hair.

btw, I NEVER strand test.... and then sometimes I get surprised about some strange colors, as in henna's carrot orange (Flamin' Hot Cheetos orange, as someone else said here in LHC), or that boxed (cool) red that looked too cool (as in not warm enough) on my face... but I'm used to dye my hair, and always keep in mind that the color may not be what I was expecting. For me, that's part of the fun. :p Specially with henna. The final color I will get with it is still a mystery for me. (yep, I LOVE henna... and I know that this thread is about semi-perm dyes, but, since henna is also kinda deposit-only, it can help us visualize what will happen with your semi-perm... specially since I have zero experience with those. :cool:)

[DarkCurls]

I guess, the first time I'll bleach until something orange-ish, then apply red. When it fades out, I'll see if I want to bleach lighter or not. Thanks red-again.

I don't really mind if the blue goes green -- in fact that would be pretty cool --, but I don't want it to be too muddy. I'm not too worried about color turnout just yet, since I'll test both the bleach and color first before using it in my hair. I mostly needed advice about developer and the actual bleaching process (and I received a few contradictory answers).

Collecting hair won't be a problem niky45, I don't plan to do it for some time yet and anyway, I throw away a handful of hair every day.