Question about protein / moisture balance

[niky45]

(not sure if this goes here, feel free to move it if doesn't)

I have recently read about over-moisturized hair. And still not sure about what it feels.

I do know that hair requires a balance between moisture and protein, too much of any of them will not do any good. I also know that many people require VERY little protein to achieve that balance.

Ok. Now myself. I have (what I think is) medium thickness kinda wavy hair, and I won't be able to measure the ponytail circumference in at least a few months (damn pixie!). My hair likes almost everything except bleach (kinda obvious, lol). I have done protein treatments (the gelatin one), and my hair liked it. Henna, the same (I think the lawsone can act kinda like a protein??). Moisture (old plain coney-conditioner), deep moisture (using the conditioner as a leave in... not the best thing since it soon gets greasy, but it doesn't feel bad), and deepest moisture (conditioner in henna last time), my hair also likes it. Full strength ACV (or even white vinegar), and my hair loves it.

Note I have bleach-damage. If I don't baby it, It's kinda dry (It has been worse, my little poor hair...)

My routine now is: CO-wash, and use undiluted ACV on wet hair as conditioner. With occasional (SLES ?) shampoo, not yet to prevent buildup but, in example, before last henna (not sure why since the henna mix had conditioner, duh... )

It actually FEELS good. It's really smooth. But it feels... kinda strange. It's not silky-smooth (btw, the conditioner I'm currently using has a low content of amodimethicone, which I have read doesn't build up? anyway is low in the ingredients list.) It's more like... yes, smooth but HARD as in kinda stiff. It has been like that every time after using henna, but this time I don't think henna has much to do....

BTW, my conditioner also has protein (hidrolized keratin), but I'm sure it's a low content.

The question. Knowing all of this... and with my actual hair regimen... can I actually over-protein or over-moisturize it?

I mean. Sure, I've been using a lot of conditioning agents (plain conditioner and ACV), but since conditioner has protein... that should balance everything, shouldn't it?

And another thought. If I just abuse the two things (as in heavy protein treatments AND heavy moisturising ones very often), should I reach the sought balance? Or hair prefers little of everything?

side note: not sure what that "mushy" thing actually means (google translate isn't of much help), but yesterday when wet, it sure felt like... kind of an octopus? As if it was alive and could rise its tentacles? ... that has nothing to do with "mushy", does it?? (sorry, my English is not the best, and google translator isn't willing to help this time.... )

PS: I actually like it the way it is now, but sure I don't want to over-baby it so it turns for the worse....

PPS: sorry for the long post. I'm used to describe my situations with as much details as i can, so whoever wants to give an answer has a clear picture of everything and doesn't need to ask for basic details. And forgive my mistakes, English is not my native language, and I'm doing the best I can.

[Anje]

One descriptor I've heard for severely protein-deficient hair is that it feels like wet paper. Actually, soft paper (like toilet paper) that's gotten wet would definitely feel "mushy", so that should help you with the weird word. (Also, your English is great. I didn't realize that you weren't a native speaker until you said so.) Less severely over-moisturized hair might just seem to stretch and stretch when you comb it, especially when it's wet.

Could you over-protein or over-moisturize with that routine? Possibly. I've over-proteined before using nothing but a conditioner that had hydrolyzed keratin listed way down the ingredients, and more severely once with a conditioner that listed silk amino acids (probably actually hydrolyzed but badly expressed) most of the way down. But my hair hasn't been bleached and notably dislikes protein. It gets stiff and sticks to itself in tangles that are almost like Velcro when it gets way too much. Other people might experience the opposite with your routine, particularly if they have significant chemical damage. In general, if your hair doesn't feel bad, I expect that you're doing just fine with protein-moisture balance.

[Tlb2012]

(not sure if this goes here, feel free to move it if doesn't)

I have recently read about over-moisturized hair. And still not sure about what it feels.

I do know that hair requires a balance between moisture and protein, too much of any of them will not do any good. I also know that many people require VERY little protein to achieve that balance.

Ok. Now myself. I have (what I think is) medium thickness kinda wavy hair, and I won't be able to measure the ponytail circumference in at least a few months (damn pixie!). My hair likes almost everything except bleach (kinda obvious, lol). I have done protein treatments (the gelatin one), and my hair liked it. Henna, the same (I think the lawsone can act kinda like a protein??). Moisture (old plain coney-conditioner), deep moisture (using the conditioner as a leave in... not the best thing since it soon gets greasy, but it doesn't feel bad), and deepest moisture (conditioner in henna last time), my hair also likes it. Full strength ACV (or even white vinegar), and my hair loves it.

Note I have bleach-damage. If I don't baby it, It's kinda dry (It has been worse, my little poor hair...)

My routine now is: CO-wash, and use undiluted ACV on wet hair as conditioner. With occasional (SLES ?) shampoo, not yet to prevent buildup but, in example, before last henna (not sure why since the henna mix had conditioner, duh... )

It actually FEELS good. It's really smooth. But it feels... kinda strange. It's not silky-smooth (btw, the conditioner I'm currently using has a low content of amodimethicone, which I have read doesn't build up? anyway is low in the ingredients list.) It's more like... yes, smooth but HARD as in kinda stiff. It has been like that every time after using henna, but this time I don't think henna has much to do....

BTW, my conditioner also has protein (hidrolized keratin), but I'm sure it's a low content.

The question. Knowing all of this... and with my actual hair regimen... can I actually over-protein or over-moisturize it?

I mean. Sure, I've been using a lot of conditioning agents (plain conditioner and ACV), but since conditioner has protein... that should balance everything, shouldn't it?

And another thought. If I just abuse the two things (as in heavy protein treatments AND heavy moisturising ones very often), should I reach the sought balance? Or hair prefers little of everything?

side note: not sure what that "mushy" thing actually means (google translate isn't of much help), but yesterday when wet, it sure felt like... kind of an octopus? As if it was alive and could rise its tentacles? ... that has nothing to do with "mushy", does it?? (sorry, my English is not the best, and google translator isn't willing to help this time.... )

PS: I actually like it the way it is now, but sure I don't want to over-baby it so it turns for the worse....

PPS: sorry for the long post. I'm used to describe my situations with as much details as i can, so whoever wants to give an answer has a clear picture of everything and doesn't need to ask for basic details. And forgive my mistakes, English is not my native language, and I'm doing the best I can.

Usually, when I over-moisturize my hair, I get an excessively oily result. It even breaks easier when it's been over hydrated, but that could be due to a certain thickness or overall state of my hair. On the ingredients list, is the hydrolyzed keratin higher on the list than the amodimethicone? I always heard that the first few ingredients on an ingredients list are the most present and potent in a formula.

I have never tried a protein treatment on my own. I've had that done at a salon, but never truly understood what they do usually; the chemistry of it.

[niky45]

One descriptor I've heard for severely protein-deficient hair is that it feels like wet paper.

Oh. I see. Now I realize I have been overthinking... lol. But I'll keep that in mind.


Less severely over-moisturized hair might just seem to stretch and stretch when you comb it, especially when it's wet.

Duh. I forgot about that symptom. But it's good to know.

I'm not really sure I can see this on my short hair, but I don't think it is doing that. More on the contrary: it is kinda stiff. It's smooth, but it has some kind of... hardness.

About over-protein, now I'm kinda worried that you used the word "stiff" in there. I'm using google translate (again), and I think I know what it means, but words have a million little details, and I'm doing my best to use them as everybody would expect...

Translations apart, my hair feels nothing like velcro. It's nearly impossible to tangle it, and it's SOFT to touch. The length can have a lot to do with tangles, but I remember my hair had been badly tangly long time ago. Even now, if I don't quite abuse the conditioner (if I just shampoo and nothing else), it feels dry, and kinda straw-like, and tangly.

However with enough moisture (I also have a coney-conditioner i think protein-free, but hey, that dimethicone could hide many things), it feels soft and silky, but hard. And even with just vinegar as conditioner, and after a shampoo, it feels good, not "harsh" (I'm sort of putting the best words I can think of to describe this, but I do realize I'm not good at descriptions).

Plus, it was like that after my first transition to vinegar rinses, some time before I even knew that there are conditioners with proteins... So, I think that this may be due to the vinegar hard-closing my cuticles. Or henna. They started almost at the same time...


In general, if your hair doesn't feel bad, I expect that you're doing just fine with protein-moisture balance.
I know. It's just... I don't wanna reach one of the extremes and then have an unhealthy hair and have to come back. I'm sure it's better to care for it from the beginning, and try to keep the balance as better as possible, so as to avoid problems that might be difficult to correct.

I'll just keep babying it until I start seeing something I don't like. THEN, I'll start worrying about it.



Also, your English is great. I didn't realize that you weren't a native speaker until you said so.
Oh, I can read in English with almost no problem ("weird" words apart). And I had been reading my post over and over to spot any mistakes. Also, the spell-checker is of GREAT help. I'm really trying to do my best. :D It has to show off.... hasn't it?

PS: sorry again for the long post. I can't help to write a lot, and then everything seems important... (actually just deleted like three whole paragraphs... :shrug:)

[niky45]

Usually, when I over-moisturize my hair, I get an excessively oily result. It even breaks easier when it's been over hydrated, but that could be due to a certain thickness or overall state of my hair. On the ingredients list, is the hydrolyzed keratin higher on the list than the amodimethicone? I always heard that the first few ingredients on an ingredients list are the most present and potent in a formula.

I have never tried a protein treatment on my own. I've had that done at a salon, but never truly understood what they do usually; the chemistry of it.

Yhey both are quite low on the ingredients list. And I have also read that they are ordered by how much percent of it there is. I suppose amodimethicone is higher, but still not in the, like, first 5 ingredients.

It's a CHEAP conditioner from a nearly store, a 1L bottle for 1€. It's not supposed to be good. But it has very little silicones (only that amodimethicone way down the list), and some keratin, and it was cheap, and I always read here that cheap stuff can be as good as pricey one, and I like that brand (their shampoo is really good, cleans thorougly without overdrying the hair. And conditioner works GREAT for CO-washes).

PS: I could post photos of the ingredients lists of products I use, if that would be of any help. I'm still a bit lost in that sea... too many ingredients out there.