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rcblinn
October 26th, 2013, 08:54 AM
Good Morning LHC :)

I am writing because, once again, I am stumbling onto some frustration with my routine and need some wisdom. I have given CO, CWC, Indian Herb Washing, Poo Only, BS & ACV, cone free, sulfate free, all of these a big hearty try. And yet still I am not satisfied with the condition of my hair. Tangles, dryness or lots of buildup seems to be the long term results of all of these and I feel more lost than anything else :confused:! To be honest, my hair was at its longest (hip) and healthiest when I was shampooing with a sulfate every day and using a coney conditioner afterwards. What ended that I believe was silicone build up ( I had never even heard of clarifying before at that point) and I had it chopped to shoulder length. What seems to work best for me has been aloe ( though that eventually causes some heinous build up if I am not careful) and mineral oil but that's pretty much all I know right now. Has anyone else ever experienced this feeling of confusion and frustration and did you eventually find a routine that worked for you? My hair typing is 1c/2a F/M ii and is medium to low porosity. Currently at middle back length and loves to tangle!

Thank you!

Becca

lapushka
October 26th, 2013, 09:00 AM
To be honest, my hair was at its longest (hip) and healthiest when I was shampooing with a sulfate every day and using a coney conditioner afterwards. What ended that I believe was silicone build up ( I had never even heard of clarifying before at that point) and I had it chopped to shoulder length.

Seems to me that you found a routine right there. Just add the clarifying part to the mix, and you should be a-okay.

rcblinn
October 26th, 2013, 09:12 AM
Seems to me that you found a routine right there. Just add the clarifying part to the mix, and you should be a-okay.

Thank you Lapushka! So far that seems the best routine but I'd like to find a way to use cones without the build up issue. I do find that many harsher sulfates/clarifying washes irritate a section of my scalp though. Are there any types of coney conditioners that don't build up as easily?

ravenheather
October 26th, 2013, 09:58 AM
Thank you Lapushka! So far that seems the best routine but I'd like to find a way to use cones without the build up issue. I do find that many harsher sulfates/clarifying washes irritate a section of my scalp though. Are there any types of coney conditioners that don't build up as easily?

There are. I am not sure what the are. Maybe luxepiggy will chime in here. Good luck.

ositarosita
October 26th, 2013, 10:30 AM
Oh yes I have done it all plus some .. and went right back to what helped to grow my hair every other time . Good ole shampoo and conditioner whenever I need to wash it and just a conditioner only if I need to wash between wash days. You have a routine your hair likes and know you know that it was build up that caused you t chop it the first time.. if it's not broke don't fix it.

biogirl87
October 26th, 2013, 10:51 AM
Becca, I think amodimethicone and bis-aminopropyl dimethicone do not build up (or at least not easily) since they are amino-functionalized silicones.

sarahthegemini
October 26th, 2013, 10:56 AM
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/celebrities/ingredients-commonly-found-in-hair-care-products

There's a list there of silicones and what ones are water soluble. Stick to sulfate washing and coney conditioners if that's what is working!

HintOfMint
October 26th, 2013, 11:43 AM
Almost every routine has buildup of something or another, it's not something that can fully be prevented.

My routine now consists of a sulfate shampoo down the length and any conditioner, whether it is cone free or not, followed by a coney leave-in. I still do some LHC-style treatments like pre-wash oilings, and SMTs.

catasa
October 26th, 2013, 01:09 PM
Almost every routine has buildup of something or another, it's not something that can fully be prevented.

My routine now consists of a sulfate shampoo down the length and any conditioner, whether it is cone free or not, followed by a coney leave-in. I still do some LHC-style treatments like pre-wash oilings, and SMTs.

I agree with the above regarding buildup - my current routine (and the only routine that has worked at all well for me) is washing with a simple non-SLS shampoo diluted with water and some ACV, and after that a few drops of mineral oil as leave in, and no conditioner or deep treatments whatsoever. And I still get buildup so that I usually clarify about every third week. This is probably due to my hard/mineral-rich water (apparently the ACV isnīt enough to counteract this). The mineral oil should be washed out OK with non-SLS shampoo from what Iīve read, but I am not completely sure of this of course, so that could be part of it also.

Anyway, as others have said, if shampoo and coney conditioner works for you, maybe adding in regular clarifying in that routine would be OK? I know that there are people here who never need to clarify, but for many of us it is simply a necessary part of the overall routine...

Good luck! :blossom:

PrairieRose
October 26th, 2013, 01:14 PM
I am still struggling with finding a routine too. I have also dabbled in a lot but still end up confused. My hair is also low porosity, which I feel makes the oils on my hair more noticeable. I was mixing a tiny bit of sulfate shampoo with my natural shampoo. I really limed that but gave it thinking it was bad for my hair. Maybe I will give it a try again.

Firefox7275
October 27th, 2013, 11:45 AM
There are many ingredients that can build up - waxes including cetyl esters, many silicones, some polyquats and other cationics, butters, petrolatum, CWC, alkaline soaps. You can also get build up from minerals in water, have you chelated recently?
http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/cationic-compounds-in-cosmetics.html
http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2011/05/before-you-shampoo-conditioner-or-oil.html
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/is-water-damaging-my-hair

Silicones that resist building up include the water soluble ones (prefix PEG-) and the amine ones such as amodimethicone. Cocoamidopropyl betaine can remove the others, or you can of course use sulphate surfactants.
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-amodimethicone-and-other-amine-functionalized-silicones
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/products-ingredients/water-soluble-silicones

Older hair is likely to be more damaged through normal 'weathering' and can even have lost its entire cuticle, are you sure your whole head is medium to low porosity? Beneficial ingredients for damaged hair include hydrolysed protein, ceramides, 18-MEA and panthenol. These can be combined with silicones and/ or mineral oil for extra slip. You might consider a hair analysis to check you have your properties right
http://pedaheh.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/goosefootprints-hair-analysis-with-my.html

jimnyo
December 1st, 2013, 09:31 PM
sorry if this is hijacking the thread, but i read through it and have a couple questions: 1) how do you determine porosity of your hair and 2) what do you all use to clarify? i once tried garnier fructis green clarifying shampoo and it gave me such TERRIBLE itchies, probably bc it has salicylic acid in it!!

endlessly
December 1st, 2013, 09:40 PM
I honestly see the best results in my hair when I switch up my products every once in awhile, so I have yet to find a routine with certain products. Your hair changes based on environmental factors - changing weather, temps, etc - so I often find I need to switch products as the season changes. As for the build up, that is an unfortunate side effect of anything you'll put on your hair and the only way to remove it is to use a clarifying product.

rcblinn
December 1st, 2013, 09:42 PM
sorry if this is hijacking the thread, but i read through it and have a couple questions: 1) how do you determine porosity of your hair and 2) what do you all use to clarify? i once tried garnier fructis green clarifying shampoo and it gave me such TERRIBLE itchies, probably bc it has salicylic acid in it!!

I've heard conflicting information in regards to determining porosity. I've placed one of my hairs in a glass of water for instance and it didn't sink even a full hour later which supposedly indicates that it is low porosity. If it sinks, then your hair is high porosity. But this may not be a valid test, I'm not sure. I do know that characteristics of low porosity are protein sensitivity, easily can be build up upon and moisture does not easily enter the hair shaft unless heat is applied. I use a simple vo5 shampoo to clarify. HTH! :)

And thank you to everyone for your thoughtful answers when I posted this awhile back!

ErinLeigh
December 1st, 2013, 11:04 PM
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/celebrities/ingredients-commonly-found-in-hair-care-products

There's a list there of silicones and what ones are water soluble. Stick to sulfate washing and coney conditioners if that's what is working!

awesome link

florenonite
December 2nd, 2013, 04:14 AM
I've heard conflicting information in regards to determining porosity. I've placed one of my hairs in a glass of water for instance and it didn't sink even a full hour later which supposedly indicates that it is low porosity. If it sinks, then your hair is high porosity. But this may not be a valid test, I'm not sure. I do know that characteristics of low porosity are protein sensitivity, easily can be build up upon and moisture does not easily enter the hair shaft unless heat is applied.

I'm pretty sure that test doesn't work as pretty much all hair will float for a substantial amount of time.

IMO the majority of the time the actual porosity of your hair doesn't really matter; it's more the symptoms of it that need dealt with than the cause. The exception would be if you have a particularly high porosity, especially as a result of damage, and wish to lower it. Otherwise, if you have trouble getting moisture into your hair, it takes forever to dry, or what have you, it doesn't really matter if it's *really* low-porosity or if it's just pretending; either way you'll probably end up taking the same steps to deal with it.

biogirl87
December 2nd, 2013, 04:22 PM
I'm pretty sure that test doesn't work as pretty much all hair will float for a substantial amount of time.

IMO the majority of the time the actual porosity of your hair doesn't really matter; it's more the symptoms of it that need dealt with than the cause. The exception would be if you have a particularly high porosity, especially as a result of damage, and wish to lower it. Otherwise, if you have trouble getting moisture into your hair, it takes forever to dry, or what have you, it doesn't really matter if it's *really* low-porosity or if it's just pretending; either way you'll probably end up taking the same steps to deal with it.florenonite, I think that low porosity and medium porosity hair would have to be treated differently. Compared to hair with medium porosity, hair with low porosity has trouble absorbing any moisture and people who have hair with low porosity have to actually use some form of heat when doing deep treatments.

Ladies (and gentlemen if any of you decide to read this thread or have replied to this thread), there are a couple of ways that tend to be more or less reliable when determining the porosity of your hair. One of these ways is the slip and slide test, which you would by sliding your fingers over a strand of your hair from root to end and then also from end root. If your fingers feel no bumps going up or down the hair shaft, I think you would have low porosity hair. If you fingers feel no bumps going down the hair shaft but you encounter a few bumps when sliding your fingers in the opposite direction, I think it would be indicative of medium porosity hair (which is probably the easiest level of porosity of hair to care for). Correct me if I am wrong, but I think only "true" curlies/type 3 and type 4 curlies have high porosity hair naturally. Also, from I have read (cannot remember exactly where), most, if not all, oils tend to sit on low porosity hair without being absorbed into the hair shaft if you are not using some form of heat (ie if you do not have your head covered with a warm towel and a shower cap) after you have applied them.

florenonite
December 3rd, 2013, 04:10 AM
florenonite, I think that low porosity and medium porosity hair would have to be treated differently. Compared to hair with medium porosity, hair with low porosity has trouble absorbing any moisture and people who have hair with low porosity have to actually use some form of heat when doing deep treatments.


Yes, but my point is that, given the inaccuracy of DIY tests and the fact that porosity isn't something to "fix" (unless you have high-porosity hair because it's damaged), it's more useful to work out how your hair behaves and treat it based on that rather than trying to assess its porosity. For instance, the test you mention tells me I have medium-porosity hair, yet my hair behaves like low-porosity hair; I treat the problems it causes and find information on low-porosity hair to be more likely to help me. It doesn't matter if my hair is actually low- or medium-porosity, because either way it takes hours upon hours to dry and gets build up soon as you look at it. If I have medium-porosity hair, I don't need to try to lower its porosity; nor do I have to try and increase its porosity if it's low. It's the effects that matter, not the cause.

animetor7
December 3rd, 2013, 06:19 PM
Have you considered a sort of combination routine?

Just talking about myself for instance, a pure shampoo and condition or CO routine did not work for me, so now I CO for most of the week and throw in a diluted sulfate free shampoo once a week. I do get buildup, but that is solved with a diluted Sulfate shampoo once about every three months. The point being that you don't have to stick to any one "method" for it to work as a routine for you. You mentioned that sulfates bother your scalp, perhaps you could try diluting your shampoo, or switching between a sulfate shampoo and a non-sulfate one or some other mix you find that suits your needs.

Zebra Fish
December 4th, 2013, 07:15 AM
I use suphate-free and cone-free and it works fine for me now :) (after a while of bumping up and down on different methods) Every 2-3 months I still feel the need to clarify and I use http://lorealprofessionnel.co.uk/products/haircare/serie-expert/cleanse-control/pure-resource. I think if sulphate and cones worked for you, go that way and just clarify when you feel the need for it.

Lilelfen1
December 4th, 2013, 08:12 AM
I am right there with you, RC. I have fine hair that tangles and splits like mad, and doesn't want to grow. I will tell you one conditioner that I have heard contains a water soluble cone ( but don't quote me. lol)Paul Mitchells The Detangler. I actually use the generic version from Sally's. it is worth a try, at least. Hope this helps

ETA: Forgot to say, this condish doesn't seem to build up on my hair the way that, say, Herbal Essences or Pantene does. The trade off is it doesn't smell as luscious as either of those. And yes, I have used it CO too, but I do need to shampoo here and there.

ErinLeigh
December 4th, 2013, 09:11 AM
Good Morning LHC :)

I am writing because, once again, I am stumbling onto some frustration with my routine and need some wisdom. I have given CO, CWC, Indian Herb Washing, Poo Only, BS & ACV, cone free, sulfate free, all of these a big hearty try. And yet still I am not satisfied with the condition of my hair. Tangles, dryness or lots of buildup seems to be the long term results of all of these and I feel more lost than anything else :confused:! To be honest, my hair was at its longest (hip) and healthiest when I was shampooing with a sulfate every day and using a coney conditioner afterwards. What ended that I believe was silicone build up ( I had never even heard of clarifying before at that point) and I had it chopped to shoulder length. What seems to work best for me has been aloe ( though that eventually causes some heinous build up if I am not careful) and mineral oil but that's pretty much all I know right now. Has anyone else ever experienced this feeling of confusion and frustration and did you eventually find a routine that worked for you? My hair typing is 1c/2a F/M ii and is medium to low porosity. Currently at middle back length and loves to tangle!

Thank you!

Becca
Always. I have so many routines as I cant find ONE.
I have 40 diff shampoo/conditioners/oils/leave ins/serums that I mix and match. I start natural and head towards cones with a ton of variety in between then use SLS shampoo and restart all over again.
Its actually quite maddening to me. Love reading normal peoples routines.

ErinLeigh
December 4th, 2013, 09:13 AM
There are many ingredients that can build up - waxes including cetyl esters, many silicones, some polyquats and other cationics, butters, petrolatum, CWC, alkaline soaps. You can also get build up from minerals in water, have you chelated recently?
http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.co.uk/2011/07/cationic-compounds-in-cosmetics.html
http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2011/05/before-you-shampoo-conditioner-or-oil.html
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/is-water-damaging-my-hair

Silicones that resist building up include the water soluble ones (prefix PEG-) and the amine ones such as amodimethicone. Cocoamidopropyl betaine can remove the others, or you can of course use sulphate surfactants.
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-amodimethicone-and-other-amine-functionalized-silicones
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/products-ingredients/water-soluble-silicones

Older hair is likely to be more damaged through normal 'weathering' and can even have lost its entire cuticle, are you sure your whole head is medium to low porosity? Beneficial ingredients for damaged hair include hydrolysed protein, ceramides, 18-MEA and panthenol. These can be combined with silicones and/ or mineral oil for extra slip. You might consider a hair analysis to check you have your properties right
http://pedaheh.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/goosefootprints-hair-analysis-with-my.html

i truly look forward to your posts. Very helpful.