Cones and Fates?

[Ashflower89]

I've been scouring the archives and newer posts for info about the real story behind cones and fates. I understand what both of them do, and how they can create a vicious cycle. But I also see that a good amount of this forum has people who use cones and fates with no problem, regardless of how terrible the non-users make them sound. And many more who did try to go cone/fate free and returned back to them. I did the BS/ACV routine for two months and had stiff, pasty results and eventually went back to regular cone/fate products myself, and returned to happy hair.

I know sulfates are too harsh on hair as far as cleaning. And people diss on cones because they coat the strands and "hide the damage". But if you don't have any damage to begin with, maybe the cones are your best friend, keeping your healthy strands protected in a layer of smoothness. So is it possible to use a sulfate free shampoo, but continue to use a coney conditioner? Or would that create an imbalance and cause heavy buildup? Anyone had experience trying this?

[Long_hair_bear]

Oh oh me me!!! :joy:

I use a fate free shampoo and a coney condish weekly. I tried going cone free for 6 months, but my hair wasn't having it. Cones create a slip that my hair unfortunately needs. Yes, cones do build up over time. Thats where sulfate shampoo comes in. I use a sulfate shampoo maybe once every two months to get rid of the cone build up. It is a vicious cycle, but some peoples' hair, like mine, need cones to be happy.

Its mainly about what YOUR hair needs to be happy. Everyone's hair is different.

[Ashflower89]

Oh oh me me!!! :joy:

I use a fate free shampoo and a coney condish weekly. I tried going cone free for 6 months, but my hair wasn't having it. Cones create a slip that my hair unfortunately needs. Yes, cones do build up over time. Thats where sulfate shampoo comes in. I use a sulfate shampoo maybe once every two months to get rid of the cone build up. It is a vicious cycle, but some peoples' hair, like mine, need cones to be happy.

Its mainly about what YOUR hair needs to be happy. Everyone's hair is different.

Thanks for the reply. Only once every two months? Thats not a bad routine. My poo/con bottles are running out soon and I need to decide what to try next. I've heard good things about Loreal EverSleek.

[Kaelee]

Somebody get Miss LuxePiggy in here, she's our resident chemistry expert! :D but...

Not all 'cones are created equal. Some are water soluable, and DON'T build up. Others do (though I'm not sure that sulfates are required to remove them.) Personally, I use both, I CO wash with a coney conditioner and then I use a leave in that's just short of Armor-All for your head! :lol: I CO wash daily and shampoo when needed, either with a sulfate free but protein rich shampoo, or a cheapy sulfate filled clarifying shampoo.

I don't personally have any problems. I tried going 'cone free for a while, but I wasn't happy with the results. I do feel like the 'cones protect hair from damage in that they give extra slip that reduces tangling and mechanical damage. And hey, there's nothing wrong with masking existing damage, either. It's certainly not the same as REPAIRING it, which many products claim to do, and I think that's where it somehow got twisted into "masking damage is bad". Hiding the damage doesn't necessarily lead to MORE damage- it just means you don't see it. If you're not doing other harmful things (for instance, continuing to flat iron your hair daily because you don't see any damage so believe it's not happening), artificially smoothing damaged hair isn't going to make it more damaged.

Sulfates are cleansing agents, and they're pretty harsh, but they're not all evil either. I used to use sulfate shampoo daily, but I also lightly oiled my (wet) hair daily at the time- I saw no ill effects whatsoever. If you're using them and not replenishing/preserving the moisture in your hair, then you'll have issues with dryness. Otherwise you may not. They bother some people's scalp, but not all. I wouldn't say it's good to use them daily, but they certainly have their place, especially when you have buildup that needs to be removed.

On the other hand, some people's hair just DOES NOT LIKE cones, or sulfates, or both. :shrug: Everyone's different.

[teela1978]

My head is greasy. I've tried non-sulfate washing methods and had some success, but any progress I made disappeared when I moved to an area with harder water. I've just given up on that route. I use sulfates (usually suave coconut) and cones (currently some suave rosemary stuff? often I use serums like the one from chi). And my hair is happy. It's wavier if I go cone free, but I kinda like the sleek coney look. I really don't see any difference between the quality of my ends from sulfate/cone free to loads of sulfates/cones.

For me, sulfates clean my hair easier. When I wasn't using sulfates I had to do a lot more manipulation to get my hair clean, thus more mechanical damage. Cones make my hair smooth and super easy to detangle, thus less mechanical damage. I go with the theory that the 'gentler' cleansing methods and cone free lifestyle tend to require more mechanical damage to the hair, at least to mine. Sulfates and cones allow for less mechanical damage and leave my hair happy.

Obviously things don't work the same for everyone, and some people have scalps that are very sensitive to sulfates. But for me they work great.

[alishaxmarie]

I'm very happy you asked about this! I've been wondering whether or not ACV clarifies your hair of cone buildup but I've found both yeses and nos on the forums and the internet in general, so could someone please clarify this for me? lol

[red-again]

Acv will remove build up of water soluble cones but not the others. If you google water soluble silicones, you will get a list then it's just a matter of seeing which are in the products you use and going from there.

[Unofficial_Rose]

Certainly when I went cone-free I had to trim more often. Can't say for sulphates as I either seem to be allergic to the ones I've tried or they don't work with the hard water we have here.

[Panth]

I'm very happy you asked about this! I've been wondering whether or not ACV clarifies your hair of cone buildup but I've found both yeses and nos on the forums and the internet in general, so could someone please clarify this for me? lol


Acv will remove build up of water soluble cones but not the others. If you google water soluble silicones, you will get a list then it's just a matter of seeing which are in the products you use and going from there.

Not quite. Water-soluble cones won't build up - they are removed with just plain water (over time), nothing else needed.

ACV absolutely does not clarify - i.e. remove product-based build-up.

What it can do is chelate (which many people seem to get confused with clarifying) - i.e. remove mineral-based build-up. Specifically, it is good at removing the calcium-based build-up caused by hard water (I don't actually know if it is any good at removing other less common mineral build-ups sometimes seen with well water, e.g. iron-based). However, IMO although very diluted ACV (or other vinegar/acid, or club soda) is very good for slowing the rate of mineral build-up when used after every wash, I suspect that the strength needed to remove heavy, long-term build-up might be damaging to hair. Personally, for removing this sort of build-up (that is only spotted once problems occur), I'd just use a chelating/swimmer's shampoo.

[NuclearApple]

I don't use that much chemicals now (except a leave in conditioner I can't live without) and my hair feels happy,there's not that much difference between silicons/sulfates vs cones/fates free for me,but it depends on the shampoo,I once used a bio shampoo that made my hair greasy as I put a whole bottle of oil in it,and i used many cones shampoo that made my hair beautiful,so it depends totally on your hair,don't worry if it's not compleatly natural cause I would never use something natural if makes my hair (or my skin ecc) awful,enjoy your hair :)

[Panth]

Here's my take on cones and sulphates (honestly, it took me about 5 mins to realise what you meant by "fates"...).

Sulphates:
- in general, they are excessively harsh for the sort of routine practiced on LHC (i.e. people not caking their hair in product every day)
- they have been scientifically proven to irritate the scalp and to cause thinning of the epidermis
- thus, it's probably beneficial for most people doing an LHC sort of routine to cut them out or reduce their use, e.g. by stretching washes or diluting the shampoo
- cutting them out is most definitely something to consider if you have excema or other skin/scalp conditions (although, of course, speak with your doctor first to be sure that the skin/scalp condition has been diagnosed correctly)
- there are some people with resilient scalps or resilient hair, or who don't want to grow to extreme (e.g. classic+) lengths, or who don't damage their hair in other ways, who are fine with sulphates

'Cones:
- they do patch-repair damage and form a thin coating over the hair
- some people have got terrified by this and think this is going to ruin their hair (!?)
- IMO, there's absolutely nothing wrong with hiding damage provided that it doesn't make you oblivious of the damage you're causing (e.g. bad if it means you think it's ok to flat iron every day until the day it isn't, good if you just have the inescapable wear and tear from having long hair and want it to be "healthier" looking, more manageable and more resilient)
- IMO, there's nothing wrong with coating the hair - unlike what some people seem to think, a) this isn't a completely impermeable barrier and b) reducing the amount of water that gets into your hair isn't necessarily a bad thing - reduced water intake equals reduced swelling and reduced hygral fatigue - it's one of the ways coconut oil works to improve hair
- cones also provide other beneficial characteristics, notably shine, slip, easy detangling and reduced static, all of which can make long hair look "healthier" but also get less damaged (anti-static and pro-slip properties can massively reduce the amount of mechanical damage caused when detangling)
- build-up can be a problem, but much less so if you are savy about products - water-soluble cones (PEG-cones) won't build up, amo-cones (e.g. amodimethicone) are anti-build-up as they only coat damaged areas and won't coat already coated areas - also, sulphate-free shampoos containing cocoamidopropyl betaine can remove cones, or you could just go sulphate-free for your regular wash and have a sulphate-containing clarifying wash once a month or so

tl;dr - sulphates = probably not great for most people, cones = probably fine for most people if used wisely.

[vindo]

I was always shampooing cone free, but I did use shampoo with sulfates in the past and grew to waist length this way. Then my ends started feeling dryer and damaged.
Back then I was also getting my hair dyed at the salon with a silicone containing semi permanent dye. It would always really cover up the damage and the ends did not feel dry anymore. But every time it wore off, my ends looked horrible again.

One day at the salon my hair suddenly started breaking off (guess the ammonia finally got to my hair). I was so horrified I immediately stopped dying it. As the dye wore off it started looking REALLY bad. So I bought a conditioner with cones. But all it did was add some slip and it weight my hair down. I tried different brands and nothing was satisfying. My hairs condition also started to worsen and so I decided to go cone free (2006, back then hair forums weren't as cone friendly either). However, it seemed the goo would not come out.
During that time I was a science student (hair and skin biology) and I asked a few more students to help me conduct an experiment. With the help of a microscope we wanted to see how long the cones really linger.
The results were surprising. Because even water soluble ones lingered for much longer than claimed. Long enough to result into a cone build up, which brings us back to the hair being trapped under a layer of silicone.
We tested different individuals of different ages, with different hair types that had been treated differently. It would especially cling on to more porous hair, but also virgin hair was unable to rid itself of the cones.
In many cases it took weeks and months for no more residue to be seen,

My own hair eventually recovered and started looking better naturally after months of washing cone free. As my hair continued to improve I grew it to classic length, cone free and sulfate free and eventually split free and damage free at classic length.

And that is my experience.

While I don't think hair takes immediate damage from cones. I would still say that cones are not a good option for everyone. But ultimately it is everybody's choice. They definitely have some negative properties, so everyone needs to weigh in for themselves and see how much benefits they get from the "slip".

btw. I really thought you meant fate as in fate, not sulfates :lol:

[Ashflower89]

LOL Sorry about the fates thing, I just noticed there was a shortened word for one and not the other. I'm glad a few different people gave varying opinions, I couldn't get anything straight about them or how good/bad they were. I saw a post on here somewhere asking peoples' favorite poo/con lines and it seemed like Loreal EverSleek came up a lot, so I'm thinking of trying that out next. I know they're sulphate free but don't think they are cone free. Guess I'll just use a sulphate poo once a month or something.

Speaking of the EverSleek line, has anyone tried the EverSleek Precious Oil Treatment? It says it has argan oil, sunflower oil and olive oil all together, sounds like it could be worth trying.

[biogirl87]

Ashflower, both the L'oreal Eversleek Sulfate-free Intense Smoothing Shampoo and the L'oreal Eversleek Sulfate-free Reparative Smoothing Shampoo are cone-free.

[Ashflower89]

Ashflower, both the L'oreal Eversleek Sulfate-free Intense Smoothing Shampoo and the L'oreal Eversleek Sulfate-free Reparative Smoothing Shampoo are cone-free.

Ahh! Thank you! Guess I didn't look into it enough.

[bunzfan]

After going almost three years cone free i'm now using them again and my hair is suddenly behaving and almost un recognisable guess i'm one that just needs them maybe because i have a bit of damage on the last few inches :patrol: ive gone sulphate free too but, my hair just behaves better with them also washing it once or twice a week suits my scalp and hair, i've tried many different shampoo's but my hair likes the Nutrogena health scalp and hair shampoo maybe because it has a neutral PH.

[starlamelissa]

where is terrier hugger? she makes the most convincing case for using BOTH cones AND sulphates. she took pictures of with and without, and how her hair suffered long term from natural washing techniques.

My sulphate shampoo isnt harsh enough to clean my clothes or scrub my pots. Its gentle hair detergent. Not the devil in a bottle! Think of the real-life long hairs you know. If you ask them, they always use mane n tail, suave, or pantene.

[faellen]

I've gone cone-free a few times, but really I do like the slip that cones give me. For CO washing though I use a cone-free conditioner, as I don't like my hair being "flat" at the scalp. As for going sulphate free... that was a total fail, my hair looked awful the whole time. I do stretch washes though - more from laziness than an adversity towards sulphates though. When my hair was short I used to wash every day with a sulphate shampoo and never had any ill effects. Luckily I don't have any skin conditions.

[woodswanderer]

I was confused by the title too, but I must say...it IS my fate to use cones. ;) Right now I like Aussie Moist conditioner. I used to use Pantene, but I think they changed the formula of the one I liked a few years ago.

[renia22]

- they have been scientifically proven to irritate the scalp and to cause thinning of the epidermis
-.

Do you have a link to a scientific study that proves that sulfate shampoos do this? The way I understand it, you can't really take an individual ingredient in isolation & make general claims about it, which I don't know if that's what you personally mean, but that seems to be the case with a lot of the critiques out there in regards to individual ingredients, including sulfates. Sulfate shampoos contain other ingredients to offset the "harshness", you are not using sulfates directly on your skin, but a combination of ingredients that many people are actually fine with. I think it's also very hard to pin point which individual ingredient might be causing problems, or if the overall formulation does not work for an individual (for example, maybe a product is not ph balanced). Of course if you (general you) have figured out through process of elimination or some other means that sulfates do not work for you, do not listen to me or anyone else, do what you know works for you and not anyone else. But I do think sometimes "the baby gets thrown out with the bath water", so to speak.

Also, most of us are not chemists, so I think it's a good idea to find some trustworthy websites to verify facts with when you hear claims about products or individual ingredients. It's up to the individual to find what works best for him/ her, but the 3 I currently use are:

www.thebeautybrains.com (a couple of scientists that answer "beauty" questions based on scientific evidence)

www.cosdna.com (a website where you can cut & paste ingredients & get a chart telling you which ingredients might cause acne or irritation, on a scale of 0-5)

www.beautypedia.com (paula Begoun's reviews. Even though of the 3 she is the only one trying to sell products, I think she knows her stuff).

[SleepyTangles]

Hi Ashflower89!
I am part of the minority who has seen their hair improve dramatically after ditching cones, so maybe I am a little partial in the matter. When I switched to sulphate-free everything, it went even better: my hair was never happier.

Sulfates:
-are too harsh on fine hair past shoulder lenght.
-my chronical dandruff disappeared when I switched to sulphate-free stuff, and now I have a clear, soft scalp that still itch when I'm clarifying or occasionally using again (low) sulphate stuff. My conclusion is that I have a mild sensitivity to them.
-boost up the frizz (they dry too much my roots and make my flyaways get crazy)

With cones:
-my hair gets greasy immediatly.
-they give more slip to hair when wet (better if dripping wet!) or under shower, but when hair is dry they seem to make detangling more difficult :confused:; not very useful, considering I never detangle in shower and I prefer to fingercomb on dry or just-slightly-wet hair.
-build-up forms very easily, making my ends drier and snappy in the long run.
-I don't like to clarify often.
Everything cones do on me (aside from heath protection) oils can do better and without the previously mentioned side effects.

Going Cone-free and sulphate-free:
-I stretched my washes up from every day to every three days - two at worse - without any major problems.
-my dandruff pretty much vanished.
-way less frizz on top and more defined waves.
-ends stay more healthy and hydrated.

I'm sorry to seem so "sure", but for me was really a win-win situation and for now I can't report any downside, if not the hassle of searching fate and cone-free products :shrug:.
It also seem that all my skin dislike cones and sulphate, as it dramatically improved when I stopped using face cleanser and creams that contained these two, so there may be a strong hint that my body doesn't like this kind of ingredients.

I hope its useful and you find your perfect routine :flower:

[renia22]

For me, sulfates clean my hair easier. When I wasn't using sulfates I had to do a lot more manipulation to get my hair clean, thus more mechanical damage. Cones make my hair smooth and super easy to detangle, thus less mechanical damage. I go with the theory that the 'gentler' cleansing methods and cone free lifestyle tend to require more mechanical damage to the hair, at least to mine. Sulfates and cones allow for less mechanical damage and leave my .

Me too! Although I understand different people have different experiences based on hair type/ water, etc, I cannot personally relate to it when people say "sulfate free is less drying". Sulfate free in my experience was my hair being a dry, tangled, gummy, shedding mess. :(

And apparently, it is my fate to use cones, too (great thread title!)

[janeytilllie]

where is terrier hugger? she makes the most convincing case for using BOTH cones AND sulphates. she took pictures of with and without, and how her hair suffered long term from natural washing techniques.

My sulphate shampoo isnt harsh enough to clean my clothes or scrub my pots. Its gentle hair detergent. Not the devil in a bottle! Think of the real-life long hairs you know. If you ask them, they always use mane n tail, suave, or pantene.


I use both sulfates and cones. I use the devil itself Pantene :)

I have tried every hair care method there is. Co wash, cone free, sulfate free, shampoo bars, BS/AVC, egg washes, herbs, water only, sebum only etc......

The above made havoc on my hair. In fact I suffered hair loss and breakage. My hair was very damaged and my scalp had major gunk.
My original post
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=109135


Everyone's hair is different and people have great success with the more natural methods. However some people do better with cones and sulfates. Like me :)

I too was terrified to use cones and sulfates. I would read and listen to horror stories.
I was convinced cones and fates were evil.

I went against what my hair wanted due to thinking natural methods would give me beautiful, long and healthy hair. It did the opposite.

So if you like sulfates and cones and they don't cause any problems, stick with them ;)


starlamelissa makes a very good point about alot of people who are outside of LHC use cones and fates have beautiful hair. Every girl I've meet uses Pantene, Aussie or herbal essences all have beautiful hair.

These two Youtubers both use the devil Pantene. Look how beautiful their hair is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trmxsoA150U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajzU6I-NVaY

So if your scalp is unhappy with sulfates try a sulfate free shampoo and cones and then clarify every so often.

If however your hair and scalp is happy with sulfates and cones. Please stick with them.
Your hair is happy for a reason, it likes them and that's ok! :thumbsup:
HTH :flower:

[renia22]

janeytilllie thank you for posting the link to your old thread, I enjoyed reading through it. It sounds like you did quite a bit of experimenting! What a great reminder to be mindful and to pay attention to what does & does not work for you, and to not get caught up in what works for others. Your hair looks great! Look at those thick ends! Good to hear you were able to figure it out. And with the reasonably priced Pantene. Who knew? :)

[lapushka]

I use harsh sulfates, and coney conditioners. Why? First of all, I need the harsher cleansers, as I suffer from bouts of SD and need a good clean (if not, SD is right around the corner - believe me, I know and experienced going sulfate free). Second of all, coney conditioners are just cheaper, and I happen to think they're not bad at all. Exactly, if you don't have damage, they only make the hair smoother, and I need smoothness at this length. Shorter lengths... it don't matter, but being waist and longer. It does matter. Anything that can make the comb slide through more easily, not causing breakage, is a bonus in my book!

[Firefox7275]

I've been scouring the archives and newer posts for info about the real story behind cones and fates. I understand what both of them do, and how they can create a vicious cycle. But I also see that a good amount of this forum has people who use cones and fates with no problem, regardless of how terrible the non-users make them sound. And many more who did try to go cone/fate free and returned back to them. I did the BS/ACV routine for two months and had stiff, pasty results and eventually went back to regular cone/fate products myself, and returned to happy hair.

I know sulfates are too harsh on hair as far as cleaning. And people diss on cones because they coat the strands and "hide the damage". But if you don't have any damage to begin with, maybe the cones are your best friend, keeping your healthy strands protected in a layer of smoothness. So is it possible to use a sulfate free shampoo, but continue to use a coney conditioner? Or would that create an imbalance and cause heavy buildup? Anyone had experience trying this?

I've only occasionally seen people claim that silicones are 'bad' or damaging: saying that they coat the strands and hide the damage is a statement of fact, a negative for some and a positive for others. There is a series of balanced science based articles by 'curl chemist' Tonya McKay on Naturallycurly on both silicones and sulphates.

Everyone with longer hair has damage, it's impossible to avoid 'weathering' - ie. cumulative damage from brushing/ combing, shampooing, hairs rubbing against one another or fabrics, UV light.

Cocoamidopropyl betaine can remove silicones. There are also those that resist building up, water soluble (prefix PEG-) and the amine ones.

Baking soda is at least as harsh as sulphate surfactants, perhaps more so depending on the formulation. There are many sulphate free shampoos ranging from super harsh to super gentle.

http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-porosity-and-curly-hair?page=4
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/products-ingredients/water-soluble-silicones
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/curlchemist-amodimethicone-and-other-amine-functionalized-silicones
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/whats-the-scoop-on-silicones
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/the-real-scoop-on-silicones

[alishaxmarie]

Everyone with longer hair has damage, it's impossible to avoid 'weathering' - ie. cumulative damage from brushing/ combing, shampooing, hairs rubbing against one another or fabrics, UV light.

Cocoamidopropyl betaine can remove silicones. There are also those that resist building up, water soluble (prefix PEG-) and the amine ones.



Both you and Panth say that coco betaine CAN remove silicones, could you please be more specific about that? I'm assuming it only removes certain cones from what was said...

[alishaxmarie]

Everyone with longer hair has damage, it's impossible to avoid 'weathering' - ie. cumulative damage from brushing/ combing, shampooing, hairs rubbing against one another or fabrics, UV light.

Cocoamidopropyl betaine can remove silicones. There are also those that resist building up, water soluble (prefix PEG-) and the amine ones.



Both you and Panth say that coco betaine CAN remove silicones, could you please be more specific about that? I'm assuming it only removes certain cones from what was said...

[ositarosita]

I live somewhere with serious hard water ( my brand new shower head is rust covered within 3 months).. so an SLS heavy shampoo for me is the same as a sulfate free shampoo when it comes to cleaning my hair and scalp ... and I prefer very coney conditioner for the above mentioned reasoned ( protect from further damage, increase slip so I don't need a detangler, etc.) as well as to weigh my hair down. I tried cone free (the tresemme) and my hair was rough, brittle, frizzy, tangled just over all unhappiness I went through 3 bottles just to be sure lol It's all about what makes your hair happy and what works for you. My hair just happens to be a cheap date and likes herbal essences and garnier fructis

[Darkhorse1]

Having just spoken to a hair dresser about this, she explained that Dimethecone is much easier to wash off than silicone. So, silicone products are ones that may leave a heavier build up on the hair, which is why some people chose not to use them (those with fine hair will see it being weighed down).

Depending on the product as well---I am using a shampoo that is sulphate free, and am shocked I can get a decent lather. Most sulphate free shampoos would NOT clean my hair (greasy scalp). While it has dimethecone in the condition, it does NOT have silicone. I am also using a conditioner (all of these are salon purchased) that is helping my ends get more moisture. I wrote a blog about it:

People must remember that there is a difference between a detangler and a conditioner. Detanglers have bigger molecules and sit ON the hair to allow it to be brushed easier. Conditioners are smaller molecules to be absorbed into the hair shaft, to give it more moisture. I think many people who experience weighed down hair might be using the wrong product, especially when it comes to conditioners. I'd been searching for a miracle one that I've seem to have found--and I'd used it once before and it did nothing for me, and now using it again, the product has gone through changes (by Swarzkopf) and wow-what a difference! And I don't need a heck of a lot (just on the ends). It also protects against fading as I have color treated hair.

[Darkhorse1]

Just an FYI--you can over use coconut oil and damage your hair just the same as hydral fatigue. I did some research about coconut oil and the fact it's so easily absorbed into the hair shaft, you can end up with damaging your hair to the point it's brittle and snaps. This was the main reason I did an experiment with coconut oil (100% organic) vs olive oil. Olive oil has slightly larger molecules and isn't absorbed as quickly as coconut oil. Result? my ends were a heck of a lot happier with Olive Oil. This was my second experiement with Coconut Oil and I did notice improvement after 1 application, but 3 was too much and my ends were very rough.


Here's my take on cones and sulphates (honestly, it took me about 5 mins to realise what you meant by "fates"...).

Sulphates:
- in general, they are excessively harsh for the sort of routine practiced on LHC (i.e. people not caking their hair in product every day)
- they have been scientifically proven to irritate the scalp and to cause thinning of the epidermis
- thus, it's probably beneficial for most people doing an LHC sort of routine to cut them out or reduce their use, e.g. by stretching washes or diluting the shampoo
- cutting them out is most definitely something to consider if you have excema or other skin/scalp conditions (although, of course, speak with your doctor first to be sure that the skin/scalp condition has been diagnosed correctly)
- there are some people with resilient scalps or resilient hair, or who don't want to grow to extreme (e.g. classic+) lengths, or who don't damage their hair in other ways, who are fine with sulphates

'Cones:
- they do patch-repair damage and form a thin coating over the hair
- some people have got terrified by this and think this is going to ruin their hair (!?)
- IMO, there's absolutely nothing wrong with hiding damage provided that it doesn't make you oblivious of the damage you're causing (e.g. bad if it means you think it's ok to flat iron every day until the day it isn't, good if you just have the inescapable wear and tear from having long hair and want it to be "healthier" looking, more manageable and more resilient)
- IMO, there's nothing wrong with coating the hair - unlike what some people seem to think, a) this isn't a completely impermeable barrier and b) reducing the amount of water that gets into your hair isn't necessarily a bad thing - reduced water intake equals reduced swelling and reduced hygral fatigue - it's one of the ways coconut oil works to improve hair
- cones also provide other beneficial characteristics, notably shine, slip, easy detangling and reduced static, all of which can make long hair look "healthier" but also get less damaged (anti-static and pro-slip properties can massively reduce the amount of mechanical damage caused when detangling)
- build-up can be a problem, but much less so if you are savy about products - water-soluble cones (PEG-cones) won't build up, amo-cones (e.g. amodimethicone) are anti-build-up as they only coat damaged areas and won't coat already coated areas - also, sulphate-free shampoos containing cocoamidopropyl betaine can remove cones, or you could just go sulphate-free for your regular wash and have a sulphate-containing clarifying wash once a month or so

tl;dr - sulphates = probably not great for most people, cones = probably fine for most people if used wisely.

[ExpectoPatronum]

I've tried going sulphate-free numerous times and I always end up going back to sulphates. First of all, I can't really afford more expensive sulphate free shampoo right now (Seriously...I'm broke :/ Even the two extra dollars for a shampoo and conditioner threw off my budget this week :( ) but I find there's really no difference in the quality of my hair no matter what I use. I do, however, stretch my washes at least every other day (I might be able to manage two now that I changed shampoos). I also pre-oil my hair before I wash and I also dilute the shampoo with water. I'm a firm believer in making things work to the best of your abilities. While sulphates might not be the best for my hair, I do make it work very well for me and my broke college student budget.

I don't really use cones, so I can't comment on that. I use mineral oil, which gives me a similar effect to cones only it's WAY cheaper than buying a coney product.

[Firefox7275]

Both you and Panth say that coco betaine CAN remove silicones, could you please be more specific about that? I'm assuming it only removes certain cones from what was said...

Depends on the product and how you use it, some seem to think a conditioning low-poo with cocoamidopropyl betaine way down the ingredients list will act as a clarifier or expect to do only scalp washes and avoid build up, I doubt that is the case. Like anything, concentration and overall formulation are relevant. See the articles I have already linked to, cocoamidopropyl betaine is mentioned in at least three.

[Panth]

Do you have a link to a scientific study that proves that sulfate shampoos do this? The way I understand it, you can't really take an individual ingredient in isolation & make general claims about it, which I don't know if that's what you personally mean, but that seems to be the case with a lot of the critiques out there in regards to individual ingredients, including sulfates. Sulfate shampoos contain other ingredients to offset the "harshness", you are not using sulfates directly on your skin, but a combination of ingredients that many people are actually fine with. I think it's also very hard to pin point which individual ingredient might be causing problems, or if the overall formulation does not work for an individual (for example, maybe a product is not ph balanced). Of course if you (general you) have figured out through process of elimination or some other means that sulfates do not work for you, do not listen to me or anyone else, do what you know works for you and not anyone else. But I do think sometimes "the baby gets thrown out with the bath water", so to speak.

Also, most of us are not chemists, so I think it's a good idea to find some trustworthy websites to verify facts with when you hear claims about products or individual ingredients. It's up to the individual to find what works best for him/ her, but the 3 I currently use are:

www.thebeautybrains.com (a couple of scientists that answer "beauty" questions based on scientific evidence)

www.cosdna.com (a website where you can cut & paste ingredients & get a chart telling you which ingredients might cause acne or irritation, on a scale of 0-5)

www.beautypedia.com (paula Begoun's reviews. Even though of the 3 she is the only one trying to sell products, I think she knows her stuff).

Not shampoo, but here is a link about SLS in aqueous cream causing skin thinning when applied repeatedly to normal skin: http://www.eczema.org/aqeous

You'll have to ask Firefox if you want better links than that. I don't have the head for remembering them, sorry.

[Panth]

Just an FYI--you can over use coconut oil and damage your hair just the same as hydral fatigue. I did some research about coconut oil and the fact it's so easily absorbed into the hair shaft, you can end up with damaging your hair to the point it's brittle and snaps. This was the main reason I did an experiment with coconut oil (100% organic) vs olive oil. Olive oil has slightly larger molecules and isn't absorbed as quickly as coconut oil. Result? my ends were a heck of a lot happier with Olive Oil. This was my second experiement with Coconut Oil and I did notice improvement after 1 application, but 3 was too much and my ends were very rough.

Interesting. I was under the opinion that olive oil was not absorbed into the hair shaft at all.

[Firefox7275]

Interesting. I was under the opinion that olive oil was not absorbed into the hair shaft at all.

Yep: oleic acid is a small-ish straight molecule. It's the polyunsaturates and larger fatty acids that absorb poorly
http://journal.scconline.org//pdf/cc2005/cc056n05/p00283-p00295.pdf

[spidermom]

My leave-in serum has cones and argan oil. I use a clarifying shampoo with sulfates about every other month for buildup, if needed.

Otherwise, it's diluted sulfate-free shampoo and cone-free conditioner. That's what it takes to keep my hair happy.

[lapushka]

Having just spoken to a hair dresser about this, she explained that Dimethecone is much easier to wash off than silicone. So, silicone products are ones that may leave a heavier build up on the hair, which is why some people chose not to use them (those with fine hair will see it being weighed down).

I'm a F, and that silicones weigh your hair down is not necessarily true. Especially not when you have waist length or longer hair. You actually need the slip and smoothness that the silicones give at that length. They do that much rather than weigh the hair down, I find.

[renia22]

Not shampoo, but here is a link about SLS in aqueous cream causing skin thinning when applied

Thanks for the link, panth. Yes, someone with eczema or some other skin condition would have to be careful about what kinds of creams they use. I do think for the rest of us, providing we don't have some known allergy to an ingredient, shampoos and conditioners that contain these ingredients (which are being rinsed off anyways) should be fine.

[starlamelissa]

If however your hair and scalp is happy with sulfates and cones. Please stick with them.
Your hair is happy for a reason, it likes them and that's ok! :thumbsup:
HTH :flower:[/QUOTE]

I heartily agree! And I apologize janey for mixing up your user name with your signature. Your thread comparing the wash methods was one of the best threads I have EVER read on lhc !

[janeytilllie]

janeytilllie thank you for posting the link to your old thread, I enjoyed reading through it. It sounds like you did quite a bit of experimenting! What a great reminder to be mindful and to pay attention to what does & does not work for you, and to not get caught up in what works for others. Your hair looks great! Look at those thick ends! Good to hear you were able to figure it out. And with the reasonably priced Pantene. Who knew? :)

Thank you for the lovely compliments. :)

I find it funny after all my years of hair experiments. The one that works is my first plain normal hair routine. The money I could have saved! lol :lol:

[janeytilllie]

I heartily agree! And I apologize janey for mixing up your user name with your signature. Your thread comparing the wash methods was one of the best threads I have EVER read on lhc !

It's ok about my username mix up :) I do it all the time lol :)

Thank you :)

[alexis917]

My hair never was "terrible" with cones, but it was a lot harder to detangle and felt coated.
I prefer being cone-free.
I never noticed any difference with or without sulfates though, so I still use them!

[sarahthegemini]

Well personally I prefer being cone free .... I had flat, lifeless hair for my entire life, and my entire life I used sulfates and 'cones. I decided to go cone free as tbh, I just felt like experimenting, and for the first time in my life, I had fullness and body. So, I came to the conclusion that 'cones weighed my hair down. And as a finey with not much hair, I definitely don't want that!

[PrairieRose]

Well personally I prefer being cone free .... I had flat, lifeless hair for my entire life, and my entire life I used sulfates and 'cones. I decided to go cone free as tbh, I just felt like experimenting, and for the first time in my life, I had fullness and body. So, I came to the conclusion that 'cones weighed my hair down. And as a finey with not much hair, I definitely don't want that!
I agree! I also have fine hair and used SLS & cones. After finding LHC I stopped using them. After reading this thread and being in a bit of a slump I decided to try cones again. Big mistake! Very sleek but very, very flat. No cones for me!

[DweamGoiL]

For me, the more natural and less chemically oriented, the better. I have found great cone free and sulfate free products that work for me. I find my hair is not as easily weighed down as when I was using cones. After coming off cones and sulfates, I can now appreciate my wavy hair without thinking it's a dry uncooperative mess all the time.

[Firefox7275]

Thanks for the link, panth. Yes, someone with eczema or some other skin condition would have to be careful about what kinds of creams they use. I do think for the rest of us, providing we don't have some known allergy to an ingredient, shampoos and conditioners that contain these ingredients (which are being rinsed off anyways) should be fine.

If you read the link Panth posted that study was on people with healthy skin, and the issue with sulphates damaging the skin barrier is nothing to do with allergies.

[teela1978]

If you read the link Panth posted that study was on people with healthy skin, and the issue with sulphates damaging the skin barrier is nothing to do with allergies.

The results also come from people leaving the ~1% solution on their skin full strength for 10 minutes 2x a day for a month. It really doesn't relate well to a shampoo scenario where it's used at most 1x per day, in usually strongly diluted, and rinsed away quickly (usually within a minute).

[renia22]

If you read the link Panth posted that study was on people with healthy skin, and the issue with sulphates damaging the skin barrier is nothing to do with allergies.


The results also come from people leaving the ~1% solution on their skin full strength for 10 minutes 2x a day for a month. It really doesn't relate well to a shampoo scenario where it's used at most 1x per day, in usually strongly diluted, and rinsed away quickly (usually within a minute).

^^exactly this

http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/green-science/sodium-lauryl-sulfate1.htm:

"Sodium lauryl sulfate can hurt you, but not in the way the e-mail rumor suggests. SLS can irritate skin under certain circumstances. It may seem strange that a cosmetic product like shampoo would contain an irritant, but the only way SLS actually irritates the skin is if it's left on for an extended period of time. It's entirely legitimate to say that if you like to leave shampoo on your hair all day, you should probably go SLS-free or face a dry, rashy scalp."

[Firefox7275]

The results also come from people leaving the ~1% solution on their skin full strength for 10 minutes 2x a day for a month. It really doesn't relate well to a shampoo scenario where it's used at most 1x per day, in usually strongly diluted, and rinsed away quickly (usually within a minute).

Doesn't it? Commercial shampoo is ~20% sulphates so even diluted with the water in hair it is likely to be a lot more than 1%, furthermore the SLS is in an emollient base in the aqueous cream which would be expected to reduce the negative effects. There are other studies on aqueous cream and on the irritancy of sulphate surfactants if you should care to hunt them down.

I freely admit my skin is far more reactive than average, but my elbow patch of atopic eczema was triggered by SLES shampoo bubbles running down my arm and of course rinsed immediately. SLES is considered lss irritant than SLS.
http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2012/06/are-sulfate-free-shampoos-really.html

[teela1978]

Doesn't it? Commercial shampoo is ~20% sulphates so even diluted with the water in hair it is likely to be a lot more than 1%, furthermore the SLS is in an emollient base in the aqueous cream which would be expected to reduce the negative effects. There are other studies on aqueous cream and on the irritancy of sulphate surfactants if you should care to hunt them down.

I freely admit my skin is far more reactive than average, but my elbow patch of atopic eczema was triggered by SLES shampoo bubbles running down my arm and of course rinsed immediately. SLES is considered lss irritant than SLS.
http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2012/06/are-sulfate-free-shampoos-really.html

Well... shampoo usually is used in small quantities maybe a teaspoon for the "reccomended use" by the manufacturer? A 1% solution would be generated by diluting that in 20 tsp, so less than half a cup. I don't think a half cup of water would soak my scalp, though I could be wrong. So even use by non-hair obsessed people would likely be less than 1% for the short amount of time the detergent is on the scalp. Add in LHC dilution tendencies and it goes lower. Not to mention that 20% is to my understanding really on the high side of sls concentration in a shampoo.

[BlazingHeart]

I tried switching away from cones and sulfates. I didn't see a big difference in my hair. It was just about the same, but it was more work to wash my hair. I use the devil of all devils, a coney, sulfate 2-in-1. My scalp doesn't love it, but to be honest, my scalp really doesn't love anything. On the other hand, I have problems with my joints and my joints REALLY hated the extra work of using anything else. *shrug* We all have to make our trade-offs, and having less pain in my hands is worth having a slightly less happy scalp. Since I switched to only washing once a week, my scalp is doing better anyhow, so...that's what works for me. Having said that, I have very tough hair that doesn't seem to react much to....well, anything. Oiling didn't improve my condition, shampoo bars didn't improve my hair condition, non-coney conditioner wasn't really any better than coney conditioner (slightly less slip, actually, but not a huge difference). I have all the volume I could want and then some, with how thick my hair is and the waviness.

I've experimented more with different things to wash my skin than my hair, since anything I'm using to clean is going to take about the same amount of energy. I'm finding that my skin is so sensitive nowadays that no matter what I wash with, my skin flares and gets angry. SLS, SLeS, other sufectants, traditional soaps, even superfatted soaps just don't do well on the areas that are prone to irritation (mostly my arms), so lately I've been using just water on the sensitive bits and saving any cleansers for areas that really need more help getting clean and fresh, like my armpits. I'm extremely sensitive, but it seems like SLS is no worse than anything else I could clean myself with. *shrug* IDK if SLS is worse in general, but for me it doesn't seem to make a difference - any surfectant of any kind causes a basically identical level of reaction.

Since the easier-to-experiment with bits of me are like that, I assume my scalp is probably the same, so I stick with what's easy and periodically grumble about the mild psoriasis. I keep meaning to ask my GP for something to treat it - my insurance refused to pay for the shampoo, so I guess I'll be trying to get a liquid steroid like someone else on the board has for her scalp (can't remember who it was).

[GoldenSilk]

Every time I've tried cones, I end up with a goopy, stringy, lank mess after a few uses, no matter how little I used. Yeah, it adds more slip, but the cost is hair that looks awful, so I don't use them! Now, that was mostly with heavier cones like dimethicone... I'm thinking about a water-soluble cone experiment on my ends, just so I don't have to trim as much, but that's waiting until my budget gets less tight. Baby oil is a lot cheaper.

I used to use sulfates all my life until I went CO last year. CO made my scalp a lot happier... It doesn't put out a tenth the oil that it used to, so I don't go from a frizzy, itchy clean on day one to a stringy, itchy dirty over the course of three days. Yeah, I still get oily if I don't wash for a week on CO, but I don't have that too-clean first day. Since my hair is fine, it was full of static and fluffed all over the place on the first day of sulfates... It got in a lot of tangles that way. It still does when I clarify, but I only need that once a month or so now.

I worry somewhat about the mechanical damage from having to scrub my scalp so much with CO, but this is mitigated by leaving my hair in a braid while I wash the scalp, then conditioning/detangling the lengths in a second step.

As for cost, there are cheap and expensive options for most wash routines. I dilute VO5 to wash my scalp, and use a combo of VO5 and Suave on my lengths. Probably comes out to about $5/month, washing every 3-6 days.

All that said, I grew my hair to classic when I was in high school, with sulfates every other day, not enough conditioner, no leave-in or oils, and ripping a sharp brush through to detangle about 10x a day...

[nobeltonya]

I am one of those who have tried most other washing methods and products, yet repeatedly return to cones and sulphates. I am a daily washer, but I do regularly oil every other night with coconut oil. And my hair is awesome every day, and managed to reach between Classic and fingertips before I cut 6" off.. but it is getting back there. :) :disco:

[Kaelee]

I am one of those who have tried most other washing methods and products, yet repeatedly return to cones and sulphates. I am a daily washer, but I do regularly oil every other night with coconut oil. And my hair is awesome every day, and managed to reach between Classic and fingertips before I cut 6" off.. but it is getting back there. :) :disco:

I used sulphate shampoo followed by coconut oil leave in EVERY DAY (and no conditioner) for YEARS. My hair never suffered for it, and it looks like yours hasn't either!

So somebody clear something up for me: is it "sulfate" or "sulphate"? I keep thinking "sulphate" should be correct, but my spellcheck keeps telling me it's wrong. :doh:

[Firefox7275]

I used sulphate shampoo followed by coconut oil leave in EVERY DAY (and no conditioner) for YEARS. My hair never suffered for it, and it looks like yours hasn't either!

So somebody clear something up for me: is it "sulfate" or "sulphate"? I keep thinking "sulphate" should be correct, but my spellcheck keeps telling me it's wrong. :doh:

Both are correct AFAIK: UK is sulphate, US is sulfate.

Sounds like your method was similar to the Movie Star Method/ coconut oil shampoo. It's likely the oil helps protect the cuticle lipids from surfactant damage, sulphates also 'lift' the cuticle so likely aid penetration of the coconut oil, keeping porosity lower making it tougher for the water or surfactants to strip internal proteins or lipids. A sulphate shampoo was certainly used in the studies demonstrating penetration of coconut oil.

[biogirl87]

Firefox, I know I already sent you a PM about this, but could provide links or names of articles of actual studies that show hair loss with sulfate use in shampoo? I am just wanting to see some documentation of this as I have seen on various sites about this being the case, but no real links to any articles of studies documenting this being the case.

[Firefox7275]

Firefox, I know I already sent you a PM about this, but could provide links or names of articles of actual studies that show hair loss with sulfate use in shampoo? I am just wanting to see some documentation of this as I have seen on various sites about this being the case, but no real links to any articles of studies documenting this being the case.

Sorry I will get to it again, I did some research and wrote out a response and my stupid temperamental laptop reset itself. One key comment I made is that sulphates do not contribute to hairloss/ shedding in all people, more in susceptible individuals. The link is inflammation/ irritation (this doesn't necessarily have to be visible to the naked eye).

[biogirl87]

Sorry I will get to it again, I did some research and wrote out a response and my stupid temperamental laptop reset itself. One key comment I made is that sulphates do not contribute to hairloss/ shedding in all people, more in susceptible individuals. The link is inflammation/ irritation (this doesn't necessarily have to be visible to the naked eye).Firefox, thank you. I do not want you to rush with this, so feel free to take your time.

[askan]

When first I went sulphate- and siliconefree there was a huge difference to my hair. Before it was very static and hard to brush - I would get loads of broken off hairs in my brush every time and there were hairs everywhere. My hair at this point was in very bad condition, dry tangly and in very bad need of a chop, but when I started CO-washing without cones it became smooth, easily brushed and I didn't shed much while brushing.

I eventually had to cut off a lot because it had gotten so thin and was already damaged, but that first impression kept with me and has kept me persuaded that my hair needs gentler treatment than sulphate shampoos. Now I don't like the feel my hair gets when I use sulphate shampoo, but maybe that's more habit thing.

I will try and post a link to what my hair looked before and after I started CO-washing:
http://focaccia.blogg.se/2010/may/balsamprojektet.html

It's in Swedish but the first pic is "before" and the second is "after" and you can see the ends weren't doing too good..

[bunzfan]

When first I went sulphate- and siliconefree there was a huge difference to my hair. Before it was very static and hard to brush - I would get loads of broken off hairs in my brush every time and there were hairs everywhere. My hair at this point was in very bad condition, dry tangly and in very bad need of a chop, but when I started CO-washing without cones it became smooth, easily brushed and I didn't shed much while brushing.

I eventually had to cut off a lot because it had gotten so thin and was already damaged, but that first impression kept with me and has kept me persuaded that my hair needs gentler treatment than sulphate shampoos. Now I don't like the feel my hair gets when I use sulphate shampoo, but maybe that's more habit thing.

I will try and post a link to what my hair looked before and after I started CO-washing:
http://focaccia.blogg.se/2010/may/balsamprojektet.html

It's in Swedish but the first pic is "before" and the second is "after" and you can see the ends weren't doing too good..

:eye: What a improvement! my length loves co washing my scalp not so much my hair at the scalp can look very limp i tried going cone free and sls free but the amount of times ive had to cut inches due to white dots and damage so i'm going back to cones to see if it helps my hair always liked it before and, i do have some bleach and straightener damage and it was just drinking vast amounts of evoo and coconut oil right up , i started on the cones last week and the difference in how it clumps together etc is quite remarkable so i'm sticking with it.