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Kwantslonghair
October 9th, 2013, 03:23 PM
My hair has been washed in nothing but well water for 14 or so years. I tried chalating for the first time. It has taken most of the bronzey color out of it and it looks and feels so much thicker. I put some argon oil on the ends and will oil it again tomorrow, but wow. How often can I do this? Once a month? I am loving right now. I had a bit more wave too until I combed it

mscm
October 9th, 2013, 03:45 PM
This article describes it well :-) http://www.diaryofahairobsession.com/?p=2640

rose313
October 9th, 2013, 04:08 PM
I want to do this, I would love to get some of the brass out of my blonde!

Audhumla
October 9th, 2013, 05:23 PM
You can add ACV to your routine (watered down as a rinse) pretty regularly if you want.
The acetic acid in vinegar can act as a chelating agent but most people advise against using regular vinegar. Try to find ACV.

Macaroni
October 9th, 2013, 05:31 PM
We have hard water and I love using apple cider vinegar diluted as a rinse between shampooing and conditioning. I wouldn't be without it.

Annibelle
October 9th, 2013, 05:35 PM
I read the above linked article and it said that vinegar is clarifying... so how do you chelate? :confused:

Audhumla
October 9th, 2013, 05:50 PM
I read the above linked article and it said that vinegar is clarifying... so how do you chelate? :confused:
The acid in vinegar (acetic acid) is a chelating agent.
Chelating means that a molecule can . . . I guess in simple terms it can grab onto the metal ions in the water forming a stable ring structure.
I guess if you picture reaching out and grabbing hold of something in front of you with both hands, you can see that there's a ring formed by your arms (the chelating agent) and what you're grabbing (the metal ion). This is often more stable than if the two molecules were to stay separate.
Describing something as chelating means it can form these ring structure with metal ions specifically.
This means that they'll rinse off your hair when you rinse the vinegar out because the chelating agent has bound to them so they're not attracted to your hair.

Sincerely,
Your friendly neighbourhood chemistry student.

Carolyn
October 9th, 2013, 05:55 PM
If you want to discourage brassy tones use white vinegar NOT apple cider vinegar.

As for chelating, I do it maybe 3 or 4 times a year and clarify about once a month on average. I don't keep track that well but it seems to be about that often. I have well water too but we have a water softener. The softened water is much much better for my hair than the hard water. The hard water was a nightmare.

melusine963
October 9th, 2013, 06:03 PM
I read the above linked article and it said that vinegar is clarifying... so how do you chelate? :confused:

I would look for an actual chelating shampoo (sometimes sold as swimmers' shampoo). If you have mineral build up, a clarifying wash isn't going to shift it because it's only designed to remove product build up.

Audhumla
October 9th, 2013, 06:03 PM
If you want to discourage brassy tones use white vinegar NOT apple cider vinegar.
It is true that ACV can give reddish tones to your hair just because it has its own reddish colour but since iron in water can give a real reddish tinge to hair then on dark hair colours sometimes chelating with ACV is better than no chelating at all in that regard if your water is high in iron.
I'm a brunette though and for blondes I imagine it'd be a lot more noticeable.

melusine963
October 9th, 2013, 06:42 PM
The acid in vinegar (acetic acid) is a chelating agent.
Chelating means that a molecule can . . . I guess in simple terms it can grab onto the metal ions in the water forming a stable ring structure.
I guess if you picture reaching out and grabbing hold of something in front of you with both hands, you can see that there's a ring formed by your arms (the chelating agent) and what you're grabbing (the metal ion). This is often more stable than if the two molecules were to stay separate.
Describing something as chelating means it can form these ring structure with metal ions specifically.
This means that they'll rinse off your hair when you rinse the vinegar out because the chelating agent has bound to them so they're not attracted to your hair.

Sincerely,
Your friendly neighbourhood chemistry student.

Wow, I had no idea how chelating actually works. This is fascinating! Thank you for the explaination. :)

Audhumla
October 9th, 2013, 06:58 PM
Wow, I had no idea how chelating actually works. This is fascinating! Thank you for the explaination. :)

No worries. Also remember that hard water means that the water has an excess of minerals in general but usually also metal ions like calcium and magnesium ions. This is why chelating agents can help soften water by binding to the metal ions so that they can't bind to anything else.

Carolyn
October 9th, 2013, 07:39 PM
It is true that ACV can give reddish tones to your hair just because it has its own reddish colour but since iron in water can give a real reddish tinge to hair then on dark hair colours sometimes chelating with ACV is better than no chelating at all in that regard if your water is high in iron.
I'm a brunette though and for blondes I imagine it'd be a lot more noticeable.You are absolutely correct. I should have noted that it's mostly blondes who benefit from white vinegar.

MeowScat
October 9th, 2013, 08:48 PM
That sounds too good to be true, now I want to try it again.

That explanation, Audhumla, was fascinating. It should be added to a Sticky.

Kwantslonghair
October 10th, 2013, 04:30 AM
Thanks all for replies. It still looks good this morning but it is a bit dry so will oil it a bit in a while. It still feels clean and it would normally be greasy at the root already.

Applegirl84
October 10th, 2013, 07:52 AM
Hmm I don't have hard water, but might give chelating a try just to see if I've got build up

UltraBella
October 10th, 2013, 08:23 AM
Our water is extremely hard and can really take a toll on hair. I chelate roughly every four weeks wih a Joico shampoo. My hair is amazing afterwards. I follow up with a protein rich conditioner, my hair loves protein.

Strangely, my hair hates ACV rinses. I thought they would help but - yikes - not good results.

bunzfan
October 10th, 2013, 08:59 AM
Would a swimmer's shampoo be a chelating one too??

kitschy
October 10th, 2013, 09:27 AM
I've used club soda to chelate. Works great!

Audhumla
October 10th, 2013, 10:05 AM
I've used club soda to chelate. Works great!

Yup. Club soda contains Sodium Citrate which produces citrate ions in solution in the soda which are chelating agents.
It's added to certain drinks as an acidity regulator if I recall correctly.
Never tried that one myself though.
Might be an option to try for people who can't use vinegar due to an adverse reaction of some kind.

Kwantslonghair
October 10th, 2013, 10:23 AM
Would a swimmer's shampoo be a chelating one too??

That is what I used. It said on the back to get rid of other minerals too

bunzfan
October 10th, 2013, 10:52 AM
That is what I used. It said on the back to get rid of other minerals too

Ooh thanks :D i moved into a city and i have waxy build up there is a cheap swimmers shampoo might just try it .

Panth
October 10th, 2013, 11:13 AM
Yup, chelation is awesome. ^_^ It's particularly advised when you use well water as well water often is quite mineral-heavy. As for how often to chelate - well, basically when your hair starts misbehaving and/or turning brassy again. Maybe once a month? Once every few months? It'll depend on your water.

As for these:


You can add ACV to your routine (watered down as a rinse) pretty regularly if you want.
The acetic acid in vinegar can act as a chelating agent but most people advise against using regular vinegar. Try to find ACV.

Actually, most people (at least on the LHC) don't advise against using regular vinegar. There is a school of thought (mostly in the "natural food" group of people) that ACV is a superior vinegar as it contains "the mother" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_of_vinegar) (or, at least expensive, fancy, unpasturised ACV contains this). However, whether or not there is any truth in the belief that ACV with the mother in is better for you as a food substance, this is irrelevant when using it on hair - hair is dead and won't be affected by any nutrients in the vinegar - the effect of vinegar on hair is simply from the acidity, which helps the cuticle to flatten down and lie smooth.

Thus, any vinegar or gentle acid (e.g. lemon juice, citric acid) will be just as good, provided it is diluted suitably. In fact, for hair many people advise not to use ACV (at least for blondes) as it can cause brassiness. Similarly, lemon juice is not commonly advised as it can bleach hair.


I read the above linked article and it said that vinegar is clarifying... so how do you chelate? :confused:

The above article is wrong. Vinegar is most definitely not clarifying.

To chelate, the easiest and most effective way is to use a shampoo advertised as a chelating shampoo or swimmer's shampoo. Some people also find club soda rinses work, but this is likely to work best on minor mineral build-up. Vinegar rinses can be used to chelate (for typical "hard water", i.e. calcium-heavy water that causes limescale) as vinegar will dissolve calcium carbonate (limescale). However, IMO they can only be used as a sort of "maintenance chelator" to reduce the rate of mineral build-up rather than a true "build-up removing chelator" as to remove serious mineral build-up you would need to use such a strong vinegar rinse that it would probably be damaging to the hair. Also, vinegar rinses are principally effective on calcium-based mineral deposits and probably will have less or no efficacy against other mineral build-up, e.g. iron-based build-up from some well water which causes brassiness.

Kwantslonghair
October 10th, 2013, 12:47 PM
Ooh thanks :D i moved into a city and i have waxy build up there is a cheap swimmers shampoo might just try it .

The one I bought at CVS was 5 dollars. Cheap considering it will last so long

Applegirl84
October 10th, 2013, 02:03 PM
I meant to buy a chelating shampoo this morning, but found this natural chelating treatment instead - Curelle Build Up Remover - http://www.aviva.ca/shop/products.asp?itemid=3733&catid=157 Wow it really did the trick and it didn't over dry out my hair either!

Ingredients: Purified Water, Xanthan Gum, Inosositol, Magnesium Salicylate:

Inosositol is apparently the chelator (is that a word?) and is derived from apples. It smelt pretty gross, but no sign of the scent after I shampooed



BTW its a Canadain product for any of you longhairs from my country :)

Kwantslonghair
October 10th, 2013, 02:24 PM
My roots are still not greasy. I am stoked. I washed yesterday and normally within 12 hours it's an oil slick

Skade
October 10th, 2013, 02:58 PM
The acid in vinegar (acetic acid) is a chelating agent.
Chelating means that a molecule can . . . I guess in simple terms it can grab onto the metal ions in the water forming a stable ring structure.
I guess if you picture reaching out and grabbing hold of something in front of you with both hands, you can see that there's a ring formed by your arms (the chelating agent) and what you're grabbing (the metal ion). This is often more stable than if the two molecules were to stay separate.
Describing something as chelating means it can form these ring structure with metal ions specifically.
This means that they'll rinse off your hair when you rinse the vinegar out because the chelating agent has bound to them so they're not attracted to your hair.

Sincerely,
Your friendly neighbourhood chemistry student.

Thank you for the explanation Audhumla, that was a very pedagogical explanation. Good to have chemistry students on board..

emilylightning
October 10th, 2013, 08:12 PM
I use ACV every time I shower and I have hard water... what I'm getting from this thread is that's a good thing? I'm a tad confused but ok :)

PixxieStix
October 10th, 2013, 09:09 PM
I haven't done any sort of clarifying or chelating treatment to my hair in quite possibly about a year, thank you for sharing your experience and reminding those of us who wandered off for a while that this is something that can be great for the hair! My hair has been growing steadily, and I'm actually past BSL now, but with having to wash my hair daily for my job I've been getting more split ends than I'd like, even doing CO washes mostly and oiling the ends every night before bed and wearing nothing but protective styles 99% of the time. I'll need to do this before my next henna root touch up. :)

Annibelle
October 10th, 2013, 09:21 PM
I bought a swimmer's shampoo today. I don't think I have hard water, and I don't think I have mineral build-up (since my clarifying shampoo seems to fix my hair), but I think it's worth a try. And it smells delicious! :)

kysgrl
October 10th, 2013, 09:24 PM
I use chelating shampoo 2-4 times a month. I have extremely hard water.

MeowScat
October 12th, 2013, 04:23 AM
I chelated 8 hours ago and you're right....OMG! My hair is so soft, shiny and smooth that DH touched it and he said it felt "like glass."

I shampooed, conditioned, rinsed as usual. Then I used a capful of white vinegar in 12 oz. warm shower water. I poured half over my head slowly, making sure to get my entire scalp, then I dunked my length in the cup and kept it there for about a minute or two, then poured the remaining over my head again. Rinsed in cool water, air dried. Wowee wow wow!

Thank you for posting about your experience, it reminded me to try it again. :)

bunzfan
October 12th, 2013, 04:41 AM
I totally forgot I already had some of that swimmers shampoo:rolleyes: so I just used it, I will report back.