Why is my hair dry knotty and tangled?

[glitterbug]

HI all!

Here is some things on what I do, I use SLS free shampoo, and cone free conditioner and products, I wash once a week. I clarified last week and deep conditioned, but my hair has been feeling very rough dry and tangled and just looks awful like a nest.

What am I doing wrong here?

[Panth]

Have you chelated recently, particularly if you live in a hard water area or swim regularly?

If not, try that. Some people recommend strong vinegar rinses or club soda rinses, but IMO the best is to simply get a chelating shampoo (often marketed as swimmer's shampoo) and use that occasionally. Weaker vinegar rinses (e.g. 1 teaspoon vinegar to 1 medium glass of water) after each wash work well for reducing mineral build-up, particularly of limescale.

[Anje]

My standard list of things to eliminate in order looks like this:
1) Generic product buildup. Clarify with sulfates and/or baking soda.
2) Dryness. Try a deep moisture treatment like SMT or the caramel treatment. This also helps protein buildup if you repeat it a few times. (ETA: it's worth checking your products for protein and switching to protein-free stuff at least part of the time if you suspect protein might be the trouble.)
3) Protein deficit. Protein treat it, then moisturize again.
4) Mineral buildup. Chelating shampoo time.
5) Irreparable damage. Cut it off... You need not cut all of it if the idea is upsetting; even a small trim can make hair feel a lot more manageable.

[Barnet Girl]

I found that this happened to me when I was using SLS free shampoo. I guess not all sulfate free shampoos are equal (I never found one that worked for me) and that (for me anyway) they do not remove product build-up effectively. I agree with all of Anje's suggestions and also found that when I bought a shower filter, my hair felt alot softer. If you live in a hard water area I would consider this.

[spidermom]

My hair usually needs to be clarified when that happens. I follow that with a deep treatment (for both protein and moisture). That usually does the trick, although sometimes I have to repeat the sequence.

[jacqueline101]

I agree sounds like build up needs clarifying then protein and moisture treatment.

[cranberrymoonz]

I'd like to add the possibility of protein build-up. If your hair has low porosity, your conditioner contains protein and you use a sulfate free shampoo, the protein may build-up on your hair and make it typically crunchy, tangly and unmanageble. The way to deal with it is to clarify and replace your products with protein-free ones.

[lapushka]

Another vote for removing possible build-up ie clarifying. Maybe you need to do it more than once, especially if it's been a long time since you last clarified.

[glitterbug]

My standard list of things to eliminate in order looks like this:
1) Generic product buildup. Clarify with sulfates and/or baking soda.
2) Dryness. Try a deep moisture treatment like SMT or the caramel treatment. This also helps protein buildup if you repeat it a few times. (ETA: it's worth checking your products for protein and switching to protein-free stuff at least part of the time if you suspect protein might be the trouble.)
3) Protein deficit. Protein treat it, then moisturize again.
4) Mineral buildup. Chelating shampoo time.
5) Irreparable damage. Cut it off... You need not cut all of it if the idea is upsetting; even a small trim can make hair feel a lot more manageable.

Wow, thanks for that! I live in a hard water are and didnt know I had to chelate.

I have seen a shampoo that says it removes calcium build up. Although it doesnt mention limescale/impurities or environment. Will it get rid of the limescale as well, but it says calcium? :S

What do I need to do to the hair after chelating? I have heard some peopl talk about acidic rinses/vinegar?

Thanks!

[Panth]

Wow, thanks for that! I live in a hard water are and didnt know I had to chelate.

I have seen a shampoo that says it removes calcium build up. Although it doesnt mention limescale/impurities or environment. Will it get rid of the limescale as well, but it says calcium? :S

What do I need to do to the hair after chelating? I have heard some peopl talk about acidic rinses/vinegar?

Thanks!

Limescale is calcium carbonate (mostly), so a shampoo that advertises that it removed calcium build-up should tackle limescale. As for the other impurities/salts, it probably will do those too but you're best just trying it.

After chelation you can do a moisturising treatment (particularly if the chelation was somewhat harsh). Acidic rinses will help to reduce the rate of limescale build-up, as limescale dissolves in acid. Personally, I'm not convinced that you can do a post-wash acid rinse that will prevent limescale build-up without being so strong that it is harmful to the hair and scalp. However, at the normal concentration (i.e. about 1 teaspoon vinegar per medium/large glass of water) it will slow the build-up so you have to chelate less often.

As for what acid to use. Lots of people use apple cider vinegar (ACV) but this can redden/darken blonde hair. White wine vinegar or just plain white vinegar will work just as well and won't stain. Some people use lemon juice but that can have a bleaching effect.

[glitterbug]

Limescale is calcium carbonate (mostly), so a shampoo that advertises that it removed calcium build-up should tackle limescale. As for the other impurities/salts, it probably will do those too but you're best just trying it.

After chelation you can do a moisturising treatment (particularly if the chelation was somewhat harsh). Acidic rinses will help to reduce the rate of limescale build-up, as limescale dissolves in acid. Personally, I'm not convinced that you can do a post-wash acid rinse that will prevent limescale build-up without being so strong that it is harmful to the hair and scalp. However, at the normal concentration (i.e. about 1 teaspoon vinegar per medium/large glass of water) it will slow the build-up so you have to chelate less often.

As for what acid to use. Lots of people use apple cider vinegar (ACV) but this can redden/darken blonde hair. White wine vinegar or just plain white vinegar will work just as well and won't stain. Some people use lemon juice but that can have a bleaching effect.


Thanks! Your awesome!

[rcblinn]

Is your SLS free shampoo soap based? If so and you live in an area with hard water, that could be resulting in this bout of unmanageable hair. One way to check is to look over the bathtub faucet or sink faucet- are there white, chalky stains? That's indicative of high mineral content in the water. A chelating shampoo, as recommended by others, followed with a deep treatment is a great way to remedy this or try using a diluted acid rinse after your washes.

Also, it could very well be protein. Things like keratin, collagen, hydrolized wheat protein, etc in your products can all lead to brittle, tangly hair as too much protein can behave similar to build up, especially on low porosity hair. My hair always throws a temper tantrum when I over do the protein and it almost always results in gnarly tangles and dry, crackly ends that feel more like pine needles than what hair should feel like. Humectants like aloe vera, glycerin and honey are helpful with low porosity hair but only when the dew points are at moderate levels- if it's too humid outside hair can poof up whereas if it is too dry, the humectants can literally pull the moisture right out of your hair. HTH! :)

[Salmonberry]

Here's something no-one's mentioned yet, maybe your hair is dry because you're not getting it wet often enough.

When you say you "wash" once a week, does that mean you shampoo once a week and get it wet on other days, or does that mean you only get it wet once a week? I ask because if I ever go more than about a day an a half without my hair getting wet, it gets dry and tangly. Moisture comes from water. Some hair types just need to get wet more often because they don't retain moisture. (Moisture and oil are different things by the way).

If you're worried about shampoo being harsh, you could try water-only on non shampoo days and finish it off with a leave in moisture treatment when your hair is damp. A good leave in can help seal in moisture. Or you could try conditioner only on non-shampoo days and then top it off with a leave in. Make sure you use the leave in on wet hair.

[Panth]

When you say you "wash" once a week, does that mean you shampoo once a week and get it wet on other days, or does that mean you only get it wet once a week? I ask because if I ever go more than about a day an a half without my hair getting wet, it gets dry and tangly. Moisture comes from water. Some hair types just need to get wet more often because they don't retain moisture. (Moisture and oil are different things by the way).

Although it is true that water is moisture ;) it's not necessarily true that getting hair wet more often will enhance the hair's moisture content. Just plain water will evaporate off leaving the hair just as dry as before. Also, repeated wetting can (over a very long time) cause hydral fatigue of the hair due to the swelling and subsequent shrinkage that happens when hair is soaked. Thus, solely increasing the frequency of wetting is not necessarily going to help at all.

[Lapin]

Stalking this thread because I'm in a similar boat, but I know it's protein.
Any recommendations for an awesome conditioner that's protein-free?

[Anje]

Stalking this thread because I'm in a similar boat, but I know it's protein.
Any recommendations for an awesome conditioner that's protein-free?
I'm a Suave junky. Anything in the "Suave Naturals" line other than the Coconut and maybe the Ocean Breeze (some say the seaweed extracts are proteinaceous) are protein-free and silicone-free. I like the Aloe and Waterlily variety myself and mix in a bunch of corn syrup for extra moisture from time to time.

[glitterbug]

Is your SLS free shampoo soap based? If so and you live in an area with hard water, that could be resulting in this bout of unmanageable hair. One way to check is to look over the bathtub faucet or sink faucet- are there white, chalky stains? That's indicative of high mineral content in the water. A chelating shampoo, as recommended by others, followed with a deep treatment is a great way to remedy this or try using a diluted acid rinse after your washes.

Also, it could very well be protein. Things like keratin, collagen, hydrolized wheat protein, etc in your products can all lead to brittle, tangly hair as too much protein can behave similar to build up, especially on low porosity hair. My hair always throws a temper tantrum when I over do the protein and it almost always results in gnarly tangles and dry, crackly ends that feel more like pine needles than what hair should feel like. Humectants like aloe vera, glycerin and honey are helpful with low porosity hair but only when the dew points are at moderate levels- if it's too humid outside hair can poof up whereas if it is too dry, the humectants can literally pull the moisture right out of your hair. HTH! :)


Thanks, but how do I know if its soap based? It doesnt say, any ingredients I need to look for?

[Firefox7275]

Although it is true that water is moisture ;) it's not necessarily true that getting hair wet more often will enhance the hair's moisture content. Just plain water will evaporate off leaving the hair just as dry as before. Also, repeated wetting can (over a very long time) cause hydral fatigue of the hair due to the swelling and subsequent shrinkage that happens when hair is soaked. Thus, solely increasing the frequency of wetting is not necessarily going to help at all.

This!! Not to mention some of the structural protein bonds being temporarily broken so the hair is weaker when wet. The other aspect of hygral fatigue is flushing out of structural proteins, permanently weakening the hair. Hair doesn't need loads of moisture (= water) it needs the right amount, more often it needs more emollient (softening/ conditioning) ingredients and products. Porous hair can take up plenty of water and lose it again, best thing for that hair type is to reduce the porosity and reduce the amount of water taken up back to a normal level.

[rcblinn]

Any ingredients with the word 'saponified ' in front of it (ie saponified vegetable oils) means it is soap based. Also Castille soap as well :)

[rcblinn]

Stalking this thread because I'm in a similar boat, but I know it's protein.
Any recommendations for an awesome conditioner that's protein-free?

A very nice one is Sally's knock off of the biolage hydrating balm. I think the brand is GVP but am not entirely certain.

[Salmonberry]

This!! Not to mention some of the structural protein bonds being temporarily broken so the hair is weaker when wet. The other aspect of hygral fatigue is flushing out of structural proteins, permanently weakening the hair. Hair doesn't need loads of moisture (= water) it needs the right amount, more often it needs more emollient (softening/ conditioning) ingredients and products. Porous hair can take up plenty of water and lose it again, best thing for that hair type is to reduce the porosity and reduce the amount of water taken up back to a normal level.

Alright, but how do you know the right amount for moisture/wetness? What's the ideal amount of time that hair should be in a wet state? And does going a whole week without letting water touch your hair result in too much dryness, or it is ideal? I guess everyone's hair is different. But, using a leave in on damp hair is sound advice right? It won't really help retain moisture if you put a leave in on completely dry hair, will it? And oil on dry hair won't make hair more moist right? Sorry I have so many questions :) I just want to make sure I'm giving sound advice tothe OP. But based on my experience, getting my hair wet every day has not caused serious damage. It gets more damaged when it gets tangled from not being wetted often enough. Maybe my hair is just a freak :(

[Panth]

I'm not the expert, but I'll give it a go:


Alright, but how do you know the right amount for moisture/wetness? What's the ideal amount of time that hair should be in a wet state? And does going a whole week without letting water touch your hair result in too much dryness, or it is ideal? I guess everyone's hair is different.

Yup, basically YMMV for all of that. It's all about experimentation and paying attention to what your hair tells you it likes/doesn't like. Also, dryness is not necessarily an indicator of a lack of moisture - it can be other things, e.g. symptom of build-up.


But, using a leave in on damp hair is sound advice right? It won't really help retain moisture if you put a leave in on completely dry hair, will it? And oil on dry hair won't make hair more moist right?

It depends on what you want your oil to do. Oils by themselves cannot impart moisture, you are perfectly correct. However, they can condition the hair (many people get moisture and condition muddled up or use them to mean the same thing - they aren't!). So, oil on dry hair can be good - it can impart shine, slip, detangling, smoothing and conditioning properties. Oil on wet/damp hair can also do that or can be used to "seal" in moisture. It depends on what your hair likes, but also on what oil you are using. E.g. a few oils, such as coconut oil, are capable of penetrating the hair shaft and thus can have superior conditioning abilities. Most oils won't do this and so are less useful for conditioning, but can still be good for shine, slip and sealing.


Sorry I have so many questions :) I just want to make sure I'm giving sound advice tothe OP. But based on my experience, getting my hair wet every day has not caused serious damage. It gets more damaged when it gets tangled from not being wetted often enough. Maybe my hair is just a freak :(

Don't apologise for questions! They are good!

As for the serious damage from wetting hair - really, as with everything, it is a YMMV. However, the fact of the matter is that repeated wetting will cause at least some hydral fatigue - whether or not this is enough to cause visible damage and/or misbehaving hair (e.g. tangles) will depend on the individual, the frequency of wetting and the goal length (as the longer hair is the older the ends are - and tiny, repeated damage often only shows up on really old hair). Your hair is not necessarily a freak, but it could be unusual. ^_^

[Firefox7275]

Alright, but how do you know the right amount for moisture/wetness? What's the ideal amount of time that hair should be in a wet state? And does going a whole week without letting water touch your hair result in too much dryness, or it is ideal? I guess everyone's hair is different. But, using a leave in on damp hair is sound advice right? It won't really help retain moisture if you put a leave in on completely dry hair, will it? And oil on dry hair won't make hair more moist right? Sorry I have so many questions :) I just want to make sure I'm giving sound advice tothe OP. But based on my experience, getting my hair wet every day has not caused serious damage. It gets more damaged when it gets tangled from not being wetted often enough. Maybe my hair is just a freak :(

Are you sure your hair is not wavier than you are currently reporting? I note from your album you have used henna, this can pull out wave.

The right water content is a percentage, not really something you can measure yourself it would have to be done in a laboratory. You can test the elasticity of your hair, which gives an idea of whether you have a optimal right protein-moisture balance, you can also consider how your hair behaves so if it is likely to be high or low porosity - mine is colour treated and overly porous, so will tend to take up too much water when washing and lose it again quickly.

When I refer to 'damage' I don't necessarily mean instant/ short term or highly visible like breaks or splits, I mean what has been tested in studies - researchers would look at, say, how much structural protein is shed from the hair after it has been treated with a particular product or how the cuticle looks under a high powered microscope. You say you don't have serious damage yet you report hair that is dry and tangly, these can be signs of damage (or wrong products or techniques or build up).

Moisture = water so no a straight up oil cannot moisturise, regardless if the hair is wet or dry, if the hair is wet it's the water that is temporarily 'moisturising'. Depends what you mean by a leave in - a thick creamy leave in conditioner will probably just make dry hair sticky and dull, a water based spray product containing a potent humectant like glycerin would be more of a moisturiser than a conditioner, tho could dehydrate the hair more depending on the dew points/ humidity. Most times when people think their hair needs moisturising (add or increase water) they are actually looking for emollience or conditioning (softness, shine, slip, etc).

To avoid hygral fatigue ideally you would never soak or wash your hair, however as you rightly note that doesn't take into consideration the need to detangle, ideally when hair is wet and loaded with conditioner. Lower porosity hair is much less vulnerable to hygral fatigue than higher porosity. Tangling/ knotting can indeed also be damaging, but how often detangling needs to be done is highly variable because our hair types and lifestyles are highly variable. Obviously what you want to be trying to avoid is having to spend half an hour in the shower detangling or getting the sort of knots that can only be cut out. Straight heads perhaps once a day and should be fine to do on dry hair, wavies and curlies can often go several days, some go a week or more: by its very nature our hair is not tangle free and we do it no favours by trying to force it to be. Some wavies/ curlies do report that the less they brush/ comb the fewer tangles they get over time.

[Lapin]

I'm a Suave junky. Anything in the "Suave Naturals" line other than the Coconut and maybe the Ocean Breeze (some say the seaweed extracts are proteinaceous) are protein-free and silicone-free. I like the Aloe and Waterlily variety myself and mix in a bunch of corn syrup for extra moisture from time to time.

Awww man, I love the coconut scent! Thanks though, I'll give the others a try. I think I used and liked Vanilla Mint before, but that may have been a different brand. It all blurs together after a while.

Thanks!

[Anje]

Awww man, I love the coconut scent! Thanks though, I'll give the others a try. I think I used and liked Vanilla Mint before, but that may have been a different brand. It all blurs together after a while.

Thanks!
Yeah, it smells nice. But for whatever reason, the coconut one has silk protein in it. Silk protein and my hair seem to have some sort of horrible blood feud with each other, and the protein was winning last time I put them together.

[glitterbug]

Yeah, it smells nice. But for whatever reason, the coconut one has silk protein in it. Silk protein and my hair seem to have some sort of horrible blood feud with each other, and the protein was winning last time I put them together.

Thanks for the suggestion on chelating. I have chelated, and left the shampoo on for a few mins, when I shampooed twice, because I have never chelated and I live in hard water area. Now my hair is very poofy, and dry, and rough. Why is this? I have deep conditioned, and mousturized with serum. But still dry and rough?

[heidi w.]

Simply clarify. Do not apply a protein product. Do NOT. Hard water is easy to fix even if renting. Simply go to a house supply place with plumbing products, and pick up a shower head water filter and replacement filters.
I rebuilt my bathroom for a long haired gal, and I now no longer have long hair. But I know what to do about a lot of stuff.
Most filter stuff can be put in and taken out easily by yourself. Just a wrench is all you need.
heidi w.

[glitterbug]

Simply clarify. Do not apply a protein product. Do NOT.
heidi w.

What will happen if I apply protein after chelating?

[Anje]

Chelating's pretty harsh. It might take a few deep conditionings to get your hair back to normal.

Now with me, "dry and rough" is a strong indicator of TOO MUCH protein. If you apply more protein to hair that has too much, you're going to have even worse "too much protein". This isn't homeopathy -- you actually need to counteract the problem, not try to exacerbate it. Try cutting out all the protein-containing ingredients for a little while (anything with ingredients to the effect of __ protein, __ amino acids, hydrolyzed __, keratin, and/or collagen), do some moisture treatments like an SMT with protein-free products, and see if your hair gets less dry, less rough, and less poofy.

[glitterbug]

Chelating's pretty harsh. It might take a few deep conditionings to get your hair back to normal.

Now with me, "dry and rough" is a strong indicator of TOO MUCH protein. If you apply more protein to hair that has too much, you're going to have even worse "too much protein". This isn't homeopathy -- you actually need to counteract the problem, not try to exacerbate it. Try cutting out all the protein-containing ingredients for a little while (anything with ingredients to the effect of __ protein, __ amino acids, hydrolyzed __, keratin, and/or collagen), do some moisture treatments like an SMT with protein-free products, and see if your hair gets less dry, less rough, and less poofy.

Thanks Anje, your knowledge is really helpful, and yes my deep condish had protein in it!! By the way, why does protein make hair so dry? IS this only after chelating?

[Anje]

Thanks Anje, your knowledge is really helpful, and yes my deep condish had protein in it!! By the way, why does protein make hair so dry? IS this only after chelating?
It's not just after chelating, but I don't know for certain why it makes hair feel so dry off-hand. I'd speculate that with the increase in protein on your hair shafts, the moisture that your hair had isn't enough to go around, but realize that that's totally unresearched and off the top of my head. It does seem to jive with the experiences of people whose hair is protein-deficient; they often report that they need a protein treatment first before moisturizing treatments actually feel like they work.

[glitterbug]

It's not just after chelating, but I don't know for certain why it makes hair feel so dry off-hand. I'd speculate that with the increase in protein on your hair shafts, the moisture that your hair had isn't enough to go around, but realize that that's totally unresearched and off the top of my head. It does seem to jive with the experiences of people whose hair is protein-deficient; they often report that they need a protein treatment first before moisturizing treatments actually feel like they work.

Okay then, but will I need to shampoo the protein out of my hair with sulphates before moisturising? (by the way is too much protein damaging?)

[Anje]

Too much protein can lead to damage, because your hair gets tangly and rough and snappy. I wouldn't worry about shampooing it out (some people have said it helps, but it wasn't doing it for me when I had bad buildup). Just dump a ton of moisture on the ends, let it sit, rinse, let dry, repeat frequently until it gets better. Or if it worsens, in which case maybe protein's not the issue. :-P

[Panth]

Okay then, but will I need to shampoo the protein out of my hair with sulphates before moisturising? (by the way is too much protein damaging?)

Too much protein can be damaging, but generally because it causes tangles and unmanageable hair. You don't need to try to remove the protein, just to ensure that the protein:moisture ratio is more balanced by increasing the moisturising treatments for at least a while.

One thing you can do is to test a shed hair. Gently stretch it between your fingers, then let go. The optimum hair will stretch a little and revert to its original length once the tension is off (though, of course, after too much stretching it will break). Endless stretching that doesn't go back to its original length indicates too much moisture / not enough protein. Immediate snapping with no stretch at all indicates too much protein / not enough moisture.

[Firefox7275]

Thanks Anje, your knowledge is really helpful, and yes my deep condish had protein in it!! By the way, why does protein make hair so dry? IS this only after chelating?

Protein is a humectant so it attracts water, it also strengthens the hair like a sort of scaffolding, which can make the hair feel coarser. Anything that builds up can make hair feel rough. What we describe as dry isn't necessarily lack of water or not only lack of water - if the cuticle is raised that can often make hair feel straw-like even when wet (ie. hair is clearly not lacking in water). Oftentimes when people say hair needs more moisture (water) what they actually mean is that hair needs more conditioning or emollients (softening ingredients).

http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/proteins-why-you-should-care
http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/03/moisture-issue-proteins-and-moisture.html
http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2009/06/size-matters-protein-conditioning-part.html
Also Google "Moisture Regulation of Hair Using Cosmetic Proteins" - it's a PDF so I cannot link to it.