PDA

View Full Version : Terminal length question



Maktub
August 17th, 2013, 07:46 PM
This might be a stupid theorical question, but...


If each hair can only grow a maximal length / time before falling out, then does that mean that - theorically - it is impossible to trimm (even very little) and really reach terminal length? (because all that is trimmed off, I suppose, would have been included in the total length capacity of the hair, had it not been trimmed off) ?

How do people who aim for terminal feel about trimming ?

WilfredAllen
August 17th, 2013, 07:52 PM
I've been wondering this myself!

YamaMaya
August 17th, 2013, 07:54 PM
There are some on this board who adopt a no trimming hair regime, but I imagine that requires quite a lot of babying the hair

EdG
August 17th, 2013, 08:39 PM
The hair growth cycle is regulated by time, not length. So, yes, one cannot trim and achieve terminal length.

I have been a non-trimmer for quite a few years. One gets used to tapered ends.
Ed

ravenheather
August 17th, 2013, 09:00 PM
I am deciding this right now. Haven 't trimmed in almost 2 years. I don't particularly like taper on shorter hair but think its lovely on longer. So I am just putting it up until its longer.

Dark40
August 17th, 2013, 11:08 PM
Hi,
I have a question about terminal lenggth. Isn't it true that if you have 2 ppl in your family that can grow thigh length hair, and if I had inherited hair from that side of the family doesn't that mean my hair can grow that long as well?

Sarahlabyrinth
August 18th, 2013, 01:10 AM
Hi,
I have a question about terminal lenggth. Isn't it true that if you have 2 ppl in your family that can grow thigh length hair, and if I had inherited hair from that side of the family doesn't that mean my hair can grow that long as well?

I would think so but you wouldn't know for sure until you tried it yourself.

Panth
August 18th, 2013, 04:39 AM
This might be a stupid theorical question, but...


If each hair can only grow a maximal length / time before falling out, then does that mean that - theorically - it is impossible to trimm (even very little) and really reach terminal length? (because all that is trimmed off, I suppose, would have been included in the total length capacity of the hair, had it not been trimmed off) ?

How do people who aim for terminal feel about trimming ?

Theoretically, yes. True terminal cannot be reached with trimming. However, that ignores the real-world fact that hair wears/splits away at the bottom. So, no one ever really reaches "true theoretical terminal" as by the time the hair strand reaches its maximal growth time (i.e. end of anagen) at least some of its tip will have worn away.

In some people, trimming has no effect on the rate of wear. In others, the amount of wear-reduction caused by trimming is equal or less than the amount of hair actually trimmed off. In both of these people, trims will mean a shorter hair length at the end of that hair's anagen than no trimming would and thus a "false terminal". However, in others (I think Spidermom is an example), the amount of wear-reduction caused by trimming is greater than the amount of hair trimmed off, such that a greater "growth rate" and a greater final length is achieved with trimming, such that not trimming would actually cause a "false terminal"!

So, basically, theory doesn't really work in the real world.

Firefox7275
August 18th, 2013, 04:52 AM
Hi,
I have a question about terminal lenggth. Isn't it true that if you have 2 ppl in your family that can grow thigh length hair, and if I had inherited hair from that side of the family doesn't that mean my hair can grow that long as well?

Not necessarily: you only inherit 50% of each parent's genetic material, you also share exactly 50% of your genetic material with your full siblings. Hair is controlled by multiple genes across different chromosomes, even if your hair type seems very similar to one side you won't have inherited all the hair genes from one side only. Plus there are other factors like dominant and recessive, you get two copies of everything you do inherit one from each parent, one gene will be 'on' and one 'off'.

trolleypup
August 19th, 2013, 06:55 PM
It really depends on how much trimming you are doing. On occasion, I have retrieved full length sheds that are intact from bulb to tapered tip. No evidence of splitting OR trimming. Granted the veryvery tip might have worn down a tiny bit, but not significantly. Sadly most of my hairs shed before they get to the extreme lengths.

Say you have 1/2" per month of growth, and you trim 1/4" every month. You will gain 1/4" per month. Each hair in your tips that gets trimmed will lose 1/2 month (or 1/4") of its eventual terminal length, however, since your length is a moving target, as new hairs get long enough to be trimmed, they will already be closer to terminal so they will have fewer cycles of trimming before they reach terminal...in the meantime, hairs that have had more trimmings will reach terminal (in time, and length less the accumulated trims) and fall out. As time passes your trim length will approach your terminal length and eventually, when you are at terminal, you will cut off the last 1/4" of your longest hairs each month with no change in length.

Example: You start at 36", terminal is 48", growth and trims as above. Numbered hairs all start at 36" (never trimmed, terminal cycle is 8 years, aged 6 years).

Month 0: length=36" hair #1=36"
Month 1: 36.5" - 0.25" = 36.25"; Hair 1 = 36.25" (terminal = 47.75" (48" - 0.25"))
Month 11: 39" - 0.25" = 38.75"; Hair 1 = 38.75" (terminal = 45.25" (48" - 2.75"))
Month 12: 39.25" - 0.25" = 39"; Hair 1 = 39" (terminal = 45" (48" - 3" (12 months of accumulated trims)))
Hair 2=36"
Month 18: 40.75" - 0.25" = 40.5"; Hair 1 = 40.5 (terminal = 43.5")
Month 24: 42.25" -0.25" = 42"; Hair 1 = 42" (terminal = 42" (24 months of accumulated trims) - Hair 1 sheds out (trimmed 24 times)
Hair 2=42" (remember 1/2" for 1 year, terminal 48", never trimmed, aged 7 years)
Month 30: 43.75" - 0.25" = 43.5"; Hair 2 = 43.5" (terminal = 46.5, trimmed 6 times)
Hair 3=36"
Month 36: 45.25" - 0.25" = 45"; Hair 2 = 45" (terminal = 45" (48" - 3")) - Hair 2 sheds out (trimmed 12 times)
Hair 3=39"
Month 47: 48" - 0.25" = 47.75"; Hair 3 = 44.5" (untrimmed)
Month 48: 48" - 0.25" = 47.75"; Hair 3 = 45" (untrimmed)
Month 53: 48" - 0.25" = 47.75"; Hair 3 = 47.5" (untrimmed)
Month 54: 48" - 0.25" = 47.75"; Hair 3 = reaches 48" and is trimmed back to 47.75" and sheds out!

For what it is worth, a hair that just reached 36" at the two year point would be just at terminal age and length when your reached terminal in general after four years of growth and trimming.

Of course, as you trim more of your growth, this process is extended...and if you cut all or more of your growth, you can't gain length.

Personally, I only S&D. At terminal you WILL have fairytale ends, if you are lucky and have a lot of visually opaque hair, and minimal taper, you can trim back to a visually blunt hemline without losing much length, but for most people, blunt ends are a lot shorter than terminal ends. Trim (if at all) to avoid/remove damage not for appearance.

Maktub
August 19th, 2013, 07:18 PM
Brilliant analysis ! Hadn't thought of that :)

chen bao jun
August 20th, 2013, 07:49 AM
Not necessarily: you only inherit 50% of each parent's genetic material, you also share exactly 50% of your genetic material with your full siblings. Hair is controlled by multiple genes across different chromosomes, even if your hair type seems very similar to one side you won't have inherited all the hair genes from one side only. Plus there are other factors like dominant and recessive, you get two copies of everything you do inherit one from each parent, one gene will be 'on' and one 'off'.
Well explained. You are never a 'clone' of one parent.
Also, you are carrying invisible genetic traits that may show up in your kids, even if they haven't shown up visibly in the family for generations. this is why people sometimes mysteriously have a child with bright red hair or blue eyes--recessive genes.
But if you have many people in your family with a certain trait (tallness, thigh length hair) you are more LIKELY to have that possibility. It just is not a sure thing.
also, things like diet and environment and other lifestyle choices do have an impact.

sourgrl
August 20th, 2013, 08:18 AM
Not necessarily: you only inherit 50% of each parent's genetic material, you also share exactly 50% of your genetic material with your full siblings. Hair is controlled by multiple genes across different chromosomes, even if your hair type seems very similar to one side you won't have inherited all the hair genes from one side only. Plus there are other factors like dominant and recessive, you get two copies of everything you do inherit one from each parent, one gene will be 'on' and one 'off'.

This helps explain why my oldest has my wavy hair on his crown and my hubby's curly hair underneath. Not fun to try manage :-/

erinlesley09
August 20th, 2013, 08:23 AM
I don't currently have any plans to grow my hair to terminal length, but my inner math nerd does love reading about how people calculate their terminal length. It's an interesting concept!

spidermom
August 20th, 2013, 09:05 AM
My idea is to keep up with little trims until my hair no longer appears to be growing longer, then stop trimming to see if I get more length out of it. I'm curious to see how long my hair can grow. It does love to split, though. The last time I grew without trimming, I needed to have 7 inches cut off after a year. Splits definitely travel up and multiply for me even when I'm being super-duper careful in my hair care habits.

Anabell
August 20th, 2013, 09:13 AM
It really depends on how much trimming you are doing. On occasion, I have retrieved full length sheds that are intact from bulb to tapered tip. No evidence of splitting OR trimming. Granted the veryvery tip might have worn down a tiny bit, but not significantly. Sadly most of my hairs shed before they get to the extreme lengths.

Say you have 1/2" per month of growth, and you trim 1/4" every month. You will gain 1/4" per month. Each hair in your tips that gets trimmed will lose 1/2 month (or 1/4") of its eventual terminal length, however, since your length is a moving target, as new hairs get long enough to be trimmed, they will already be closer to terminal so they will have fewer cycles of trimming before they reach terminal...in the meantime, hairs that have had more trimmings will reach terminal (in time, and length less the accumulated trims) and fall out. As time passes your trim length will approach your terminal length and eventually, when you are at terminal, you will cut off the last 1/4" of your longest hairs each month with no change in length.

Example: You start at 36", terminal is 48", growth and trims as above. Numbered hairs all start at 36" (never trimmed, terminal cycle is 8 years, aged 6 years).

Month 0: length=36" hair #1=36"
Month 1: 36.5" - 0.25" = 36.25"; Hair 1 = 36.25" (terminal = 47.75" (48" - 0.25"))
Month 11: 39" - 0.25" = 38.75"; Hair 1 = 38.75" (terminal = 45.25" (48" - 2.75"))
Month 12: 39.25" - 0.25" = 39"; Hair 1 = 39" (terminal = 45" (48" - 3" (12 months of accumulated trims)))
Hair 2=36"
Month 18: 40.75" - 0.25" = 40.5"; Hair 1 = 40.5 (terminal = 43.5")
Month 24: 42.25" -0.25" = 42"; Hair 1 = 42" (terminal = 42" (24 months of accumulated trims) - Hair 1 sheds out (trimmed 24 times)
Hair 2=42" (remember 1/2" for 1 year, terminal 48", never trimmed, aged 7 years)
Month 30: 43.75" - 0.25" = 43.5"; Hair 2 = 43.5" (terminal = 46.5, trimmed 6 times)
Hair 3=36"
Month 36: 45.25" - 0.25" = 45"; Hair 2 = 45" (terminal = 45" (48" - 3")) - Hair 2 sheds out (trimmed 12 times)
Hair 3=39"
Month 47: 48" - 0.25" = 47.75"; Hair 3 = 44.5" (untrimmed)
Month 48: 48" - 0.25" = 47.75"; Hair 3 = 45" (untrimmed)
Month 53: 48" - 0.25" = 47.75"; Hair 3 = 47.5" (untrimmed)
Month 54: 48" - 0.25" = 47.75"; Hair 3 = reaches 48" and is trimmed back to 47.75" and sheds out!

For what it is worth, a hair that just reached 36" at the two year point would be just at terminal age and length when your reached terminal in general after four years of growth and trimming.

Of course, as you trim more of your growth, this process is extended...and if you cut all or more of your growth, you can't gain length.

Personally, I only S&D. At terminal you WILL have fairytale ends, if you are lucky and have a lot of visually opaque hair, and minimal taper, you can trim back to a visually blunt hemline without losing much length, but for most people, blunt ends are a lot shorter than terminal ends. Trim (if at all) to avoid/remove damage not for appearance.

That was really interesting. Never thought about this that way. This is means that as long as you cut monthly less that your monthly grow rate- you will reach terminal minus the amount you monthly cut. You can reach very close to terminal by dusting. Thank you for the demonstration.

Another thing that came to my mind- theoretically- isn't tapper ends (I mean in the individual hair strand) that never been cut are less prone to split ends than hair that already have been cut? I imagine it like a shoelace, when the taper end is the hard tip of it that prevent it from come apart. Once you cut it at the first time the hair strand will be more "open" because nothing hold the tip close, so it will come apart (and will split) more easily. So if one won't cut the hair until most of the hair strands will be with tapper ends it actually reduce the split ends amount.

I know it is just a theory and it is a lot of variables I didn't take in account. But maybe that's the reason that no-trimming method work for some people.

Leeloo
August 20th, 2013, 10:29 AM
It really depends on how much trimming you are doing. On occasion, I have retrieved full length sheds that are intact from bulb to tapered tip. No evidence of splitting OR trimming. Granted the veryvery tip might have worn down a tiny bit, but not significantly. Sadly most of my hairs shed before they get to the extreme lengths.

Say you have 1/2" per month of growth, and you trim 1/4" every month. You will gain 1/4" per month. Each hair in your tips that gets trimmed will lose 1/2 month (or 1/4") of its eventual terminal length, however, since your length is a moving target, as new hairs get long enough to be trimmed, they will already be closer to terminal so they will have fewer cycles of trimming before they reach terminal...in the meantime, hairs that have had more trimmings will reach terminal (in time, and length less the accumulated trims) and fall out. As time passes your trim length will approach your terminal length and eventually, when you are at terminal, you will cut off the last 1/4" of your longest hairs each month with no change in length.

Example: You start at 36", terminal is 48", growth and trims as above. Numbered hairs all start at 36" (never trimmed, terminal cycle is 8 years, aged 6 years).

Month 0: length=36" hair #1=36"
Month 1: 36.5" - 0.25" = 36.25"; Hair 1 = 36.25" (terminal = 47.75" (48" - 0.25"))
Month 11: 39" - 0.25" = 38.75"; Hair 1 = 38.75" (terminal = 45.25" (48" - 2.75"))
Month 12: 39.25" - 0.25" = 39"; Hair 1 = 39" (terminal = 45" (48" - 3" (12 months of accumulated trims)))
Hair 2=36"
Month 18: 40.75" - 0.25" = 40.5"; Hair 1 = 40.5 (terminal = 43.5")
Month 24: 42.25" -0.25" = 42"; Hair 1 = 42" (terminal = 42" (24 months of accumulated trims) - Hair 1 sheds out (trimmed 24 times)
Hair 2=42" (remember 1/2" for 1 year, terminal 48", never trimmed, aged 7 years)
Month 30: 43.75" - 0.25" = 43.5"; Hair 2 = 43.5" (terminal = 46.5, trimmed 6 times)
Hair 3=36"
Month 36: 45.25" - 0.25" = 45"; Hair 2 = 45" (terminal = 45" (48" - 3")) - Hair 2 sheds out (trimmed 12 times)
Hair 3=39"
Month 47: 48" - 0.25" = 47.75"; Hair 3 = 44.5" (untrimmed)
Month 48: 48" - 0.25" = 47.75"; Hair 3 = 45" (untrimmed)
Month 53: 48" - 0.25" = 47.75"; Hair 3 = 47.5" (untrimmed)
Month 54: 48" - 0.25" = 47.75"; Hair 3 = reaches 48" and is trimmed back to 47.75" and sheds out!

For what it is worth, a hair that just reached 36" at the two year point would be just at terminal age and length when your reached terminal in general after four years of growth and trimming.

Of course, as you trim more of your growth, this process is extended...and if you cut all or more of your growth, you can't gain length.

Personally, I only S&D. At terminal you WILL have fairytale ends, if you are lucky and have a lot of visually opaque hair, and minimal taper, you can trim back to a visually blunt hemline without losing much length, but for most people, blunt ends are a lot shorter than terminal ends. Trim (if at all) to avoid/remove damage not for appearance.

Thanks for the explanation! I didn’t think about it that way and it makes perfect sense.

trolleypup
August 20th, 2013, 05:33 PM
That was really interesting. Never thought about this that way. This is means that as long as you cut monthly less that your monthly grow rate- you will reach terminal minus the amount you monthly cut. You can reach very close to terminal by dusting. Thank you for the demonstration.

Another thing that came to my mind- theoretically- isn't tapper ends (I mean in the individual hair strand) that never been cut are less prone to split ends than hair that already have been cut? I imagine it like a shoelace, when the taper end is the hard tip of it that prevent it from come apart. Once you cut it at the first time the hair strand will be more "open" because nothing hold the tip close, so it will come apart (and will split) more easily. So if one won't cut the hair until most of the hair strands will be with tapper ends it actually reduce the split ends amount.
Thanks, I was wondering if my intuition and calculation were in line.

On the other hand, hair is more solid...more like waxed string than separate fibers, so a cut end wouldn't necessarily unravel...cutting with a blunt tool or mechanical damage would tend to fray while a clean cut would tend to stay neat?

ravenheather
August 20th, 2013, 07:09 PM
That was really interesting. Never thought about this that way. This is means that as long as you cut monthly less that your monthly grow rate- you will reach terminal minus the amount you monthly cut. You can reach very close to terminal by dusting. Thank you for the demonstration.

Another thing that came to my mind- theoretically- isn't tapper ends (I mean in the individual hair strand) that never been cut are less prone to split ends than hair that already have been cut? I imagine it like a shoelace, when the taper end is the hard tip of it that prevent it from come apart. Once you cut it at the first time the hair strand will be more "open" because nothing hold the tip close, so it will come apart (and will split) more easily. So if one won't cut the hair until most of the hair strands will be with tapper ends it actually reduce the split ends amount.

I know it is just a theory and it is a lot of variables I didn't take in account. But maybe that's the reason that no-trimming method work for some people.

I have had this exact thought about untrimmed hairs. If a blunt cut hair is less likely to split than a hair that is cut on an angle , then it seems like untrimmed hairs would be the least likely to split of all.