a question about dandruff...

[The-Young-Maid]

So I've been using a generic brand dandruff shampoo every wash(1x a week) for at least a year now. I always assumed I had dandruff because you could see little white bits in my hair. The shampoo hasn't had much if any effect on it. But now I'm thinking its more sebum than anything because it's more like little nubs stuck around the hair shaft.(Not to be confused with flakes, its never on my clothing) I can actually slide it all the way down my hair. My scalp doesn't itch and never has - I don't seem to have higher than normal shedding. But if I scratch at my scalp a little I get some under my nails. I have an oily face but my scalp doesn't feel super oily. So my question is, what exactly is dandruff? What are the different types and whatnot. And does it matter what shampoo I use? Like, could I use whatever I wanted and still have this stuff? I'm confused because everyone says I have dandruff but its not flakes.:confused: I hope this isn't a stupid question!

Hair update: My hair is now about an inch from tailbone.:happydance: It was waist about mid june I think. I'm pretty happy that classic isn't far away anymore. If anyone remembers that bad trip I had to the hair stylist in june and went from classic to waist when I asked for 2 inches... yeah still bitter. I learned my lesson. I've also been taking Hair, Skin and Nail vitamins (Spring Valley) for about a month now and I think it made my hair grow! My nails feel stronger and my skin has a glow to it - even though I still have to battle random spots of cystic-like acne that like to travel all over my pale face. *ow!*:(

[nobeltonya]

Maybe it's sebum building up on your scalp.. you could try massaging it daily b/w washes. Do you oil at all? I know it seems counter-productive, given your oily skin, but it seems to control the release of the sebum. But I wash daily.. when I oil, I only do it at night and once every 2-3 days. :disco:

[Firefox7275]

So I've been using a generic brand dandruff shampoo every wash(1x a week) for at least a year now. I always assumed I had dandruff because you could see little white bits in my hair. The shampoo hasn't had much if any effect on it. But now I'm thinking its more sebum than anything because it's more like little nubs stuck around the hair shaft.(Not to be confused with flakes, its never on my clothing) I can actually slide it all the way down my hair. My scalp doesn't itch and never has - I don't seem to have higher than normal shedding. But if I scratch at my scalp a little I get some under my nails. I have an oily face but my scalp doesn't feel super oily. So my question is, what exactly is dandruff? What are the different types and whatnot. And does it matter what shampoo I use? Like, could I use whatever I wanted and still have this stuff? I'm confused because everyone says I have dandruff but its not flakes.:confused: I hope this isn't a stupid question!

Hair update: My hair is now about an inch from tailbone.:happydance: It was waist about mid june I think. I'm pretty happy that classic isn't far away anymore. If anyone remembers that bad trip I had to the hair stylist in june and went from classic to waist when I asked for 2 inches... yeah still bitter. I learned my lesson. I've also been taking Hair, Skin and Nail vitamins (Spring Valley) for about a month now and I think it made my hair grow! My nails feel stronger and my skin has a glow to it - even though I still have to battle random spots of cystic-like acne that like to travel all over my pale face. *ow!*:(

Dandruff is effectively a lay term used to describe any flaky scalp issue, the flakes don't have to be a specific size nor be on your clothing. Only a medical professional can diagnose the cause - can be seborrhoeic dermatitis, irritant contact dermatitis, xerosis, atopic eczema (aka atopic dermatitis). Only a doctor can diagnose it since they can all present in a very similar way, so it would be best to seek a formal diagnosis rather than asking mostly unqualified people on a forum. You can do more harm than good self treating with a dandruff shampoo since these are only formulated for mild seborrhoeic dermatitis, the harsh surfactants thin the skin barrier and destroy the beneficial skin flora. All forms of dermatitis are inflammatory, even if you cannot see or feel any inflammation (inflammation can be at the cellular level); xerosis is far less common and is not an inflammatory condition.

If you also have acne then you potentially have two inflammatory conditions and two conditions where your skin barrier is not as strong as it might be (keeps water in, yeast and bacteria out). You might wish to review your diet making it as nutrient dense and anti inflammatory as possible, also work on respecting your skin barrier - products at pH 4.5 to 5.5, super gentle with no sulphate surfactants, ideally no anionic surfactants, no alkaline soaps. It's not really a good ideal to supplement small groups of micronutrients, they work synergistically and in opposition so your body needs a balance of them all, so again you can do more harm than good by upsetting this balance. If you are seeing the benefit that might suggest your basic diet is not all it should be.

Speaking more personally I have at least two forms of dermatitis including a very mild form on my scalp which presents as two tiny raised flaky patches over my ears and little skin 'scabs'/ flakes at my nape which slide down the hairs just as you describe, I have no loose flaking and my hair is not excessively oily. Quitting sulphates and other harsh cleansing agents was the best thing I did: scalp and face are less oily, eczema cleared, my scalp would clear too if I quit dying my hair (alkaline, damages the skin barrier), even my hands and lips are in better conditions.

[The-Young-Maid]

nobeltonya - I do mini massages 2x daily in the morning and before I go to bed. I also oil my length daily before bunning/braiding for bed. I tried putting some tea tree oil on my scalp and massaging it but I ended up getting too much oil on the rest of my hair and it looked really greasy. *oops*

Firefox7275 - Thanks for a very informed reply, however I don't feel like this is something pressing enough to warrant a visit to the doctor. I have a healthy diet but its impossible to eliminate all the excess sugar in everything. My diet seems pretty balanced and I've only been drinking water and tea for the past 3+ years, I've never been able to drink soda... I'm not sure where to start with the gentler products. I tried a sls free shampoo and loved how soft my hair was afterword. But by the next day my hair had begun to produce oil. Usually my hair won't look oily until day 3 because of the sls in the other shampoo, that helps me stretch washes to a week. And the acne thing - should I not use acne specific products? Are they all too harsh? Should I just use a very gentle cleanser/toner/moisturizer like Simple?:?

What kind of products/cleansing methods would you recommend for my hair/face?

[meteor]

Speaking more personally I have at least two forms of dermatitis including a very mild form on my scalp which presents as two tiny raised flaky patches over my ears and little skin 'scabs'/ flakes at my nape which slide down the hairs just as you describe, I have no loose flaking and my hair is not excessively oily. Quitting sulphates and other harsh cleansing agents was the best thing I did: scalp and face are less oily, eczema cleared, my scalp would clear too if I quit dying my hair (alkaline, damages the skin barrier), even my hands and lips are in better conditions.

Yes, dandruff may be quite difficult to figure out because it's only a symptom (of many different conditions and allergies/sensitivities).
Firefox, you give great advice on scalp and hair. Could you let us know what else has been effective so far in treating flaky issues for you? I know you recommend visiting a dermatologist and that should solve the problem. But the reason I'm asking is because lots of dermatologists prescribe medicated shampoos that works only temporarily and don't go very in-depth in their analysis (in terms of figuring out your allergies, for example), which is why many people like to take the naturopath way treating dandruff in the long run.


My personal favorite for scalp issues is neem oil and some essential oil blends (tea tree, chamomile, calendula, thyme...) as well as using non-SLS/SLES shampoos.

[sharonluvscats]

I tried washing my hair once a week and got very bad dandruff. I tried everything from dandruff shampoo to sls-free shampoo to oil massages. The only thing that worked for me was washing more frequently.

[The-Young-Maid]

sharonluvscats - If I try to wash more than once a week my hair never drys out completely and I have unmanageable frizz.:-( Oil massages seem to make me shed more. What is your routine now?

[Firefox7275]

Yes, dandruff may be quite difficult to figure out because it's only a symptom (of many different conditions and allergies/sensitivities).
Firefox, you give great advice on scalp and hair. Could you let us know what else has been effective so far in treating flaky issues for you? I know you recommend visiting a dermatologist and that should solve the problem. But the reason I'm asking is because lots of dermatologists prescribe medicated shampoos that works only temporarily and don't go very in-depth in their analysis (in terms of figuring out your allergies, for example), which is why many people like to take the naturopath way treating dandruff in the long run.

My personal favorite for scalp issues is neem oil and some essential oil blends (tea tree, chamomile, calendula, thyme...) as well as using non-SLS/SLES shampoos.

Actually I generally suggest visiting the family doctor or a dermatologist primarily for a diagnosis not necessarily for treatment, and I believe that is the single best piece of advice anyone can give. Family doctors can diagnose all the common scalp complaints accurately (they do so here in the UK) we don't routinely see dermatologists but I know some of you guys can on your health insurance. I do believe it's possible to self treat if you are willing to do proper research or ask the right people - but you must be working with an accurate diagnosis or you really can do more harm than good. Medicated shampoos would not necessarily be prescribed for all flaky scalp complaints, they generally are for seborrhoeic dermatitis and the options are woefully inadequate - AFAIK all bar Neutrogena T-Sal contain sulphates but even that contains another harsh surfactant.

Part of the reason I retrained from pharmacy to lifestyle healthcare was my own health issues - realising that no doctor or pharmacist was going to fix me if I wasn't prepared to take responsibility for fixing myself. But I'm still a science geek to the core, I am very wary of alternative or natural therapies that are completely unproven or have studies against them. I do love stuff like aloe vera which is backed by impressive pedigree of published research.

My scalp issues are so incredibly minor I basically do almost nothing, what I really need to do is quit the alkaline box dyes and quit sweating (both are triggers) but that won't happen!! Dilute white vinegar rinses do seem to have a temporary effect but mostly I honestly don't bother. If my scalp issues worsened and I could no longer conditioner wash I'd try either Komaza Care Moja shampoo (pH 4.5, very gentle ingredients, balance of science and nature) OR Regenepure shampoo (sulphate free, contains the anti fungal ketoconazole same as Nizoral) depending on the diagnosis and severity.

For my atopic eczema and contact dermatitis (face and body) simply quitting sulphates and other anionic surfactants worked like a dream, I have been clear well over two years but of course you are never 'cured' just asymptomatic so always have to be cautious. My skin also LOVES medical grade lanolin as an ingredient, I do also use calendula in my face cream (Weleda baby).

Given I am diagnosed AE/ CD I'd personally be wary of tea tree because it can be irritant. BUT that is not to say it is not effective or not beneficial for many with mild seborrhoeic dermatitis, it has proven anti fungal activity so that really is a personal choice. My mother has SD and her patch reduced by about half just quitting sulphates for cocoamidopropyl betaine - I can't get her to try any other remedies and, like me, she continues to dye her hair. Diet modification has also been beneficial for me in the past, I did eat really clean (wholefood, very low glycaemic index, anti inflammatory, little alcohol) and take targeted supplements at the time.

HTH!

[fairview]

Dandruff is a collective diagnosis for many scalp flaking problems but real dandruff is a fungal infection of the scalp. I have cut and pasted a reference about the causes.

As the epidermal layer continually replaces itself, cells are pushed outward where they eventually die and flake off. For most individuals, these flakes of skin are too small to be visible. However, certain conditions cause cell turnover to be unusually rapid, especially in the scalp. For people with dandruff, skin cells may mature and be shed in 2–7 days, as opposed to around a month in people without dandruff. The result is that dead skin cells are shed in large, oily clumps, which appear as white or grayish patches on the scalp, skin and clothes.

Dandruff has been shown to be the result of three required factors:[4]

Skin oil commonly referred to as sebum or sebaceous secretions[5]
The metabolic by-products of skin micro-organisms (most specifically Malassezia yeasts)[6][7][8][9][10]
Individual susceptibility

Older literature cites the fungus Malassezia furfur (previously known as Pityrosporum ovale) as the cause of dandruff. While this species does occur naturally on the skin surface of both healthy people and those with dandruff, in 2007 it was discovered that the responsible agent is a scalp specific fungus, Malassezia globosa,[11] that metabolizes triglycerides present in sebum by the expression of lipase, resulting in a lipid byproduct oleic acid (OA). During dandruff, the levels of Malassezia increase by 1.5 to 2 times its normal level.[2] Penetration by OA of the top layer of the epidermis, the stratum corneum, results in an inflammatory response in susceptible persons which disturbs homeostasis and results in erratic cleavage of stratum corneum cells.[8]

Dandruff can also be a manifestation of an allergic reaction to chemicals in hair gels, sprays, and shampoos, hair oils, or sometimes even dandruff medications like ketoconazole.[citation needed]

There is some evidence that excessive perspiration and climate have significant roles in the pathogenesis of dandruff.

What is interesting is that many of your 'what if' concerns that you have voiced are contained in the paste as possible causes and are in agreement. However this is what I don't understand. You have made a considerable investment in time, effort and patience to get to where you are today but yet you come here to basically ask for medical advice from non health professionals. At best you will get harmless conjecture; at worst you will get recommendations that could exacerbate your condition and instead of losing more than 2" with an arrogant stylist you could lose entire clumps of hair from your scalp, perhaps permanently.

In regards to resolution, the origin(s) (and you may have multiple causes) of your problem needs to be diagnosed correctly by a dermatologist and/or and allergist. Treatment is then up to you but knowing the origins of the problem allows you to make an informed decision on treatment.

Good Luck

If I had classic length hair, if I had any concerns about my scalp health, I would head to a medical professional, not a forum.