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Tori Angeli
August 14th, 2013, 07:56 PM
I seem to have bad luck with humectants in general. As soft and shiny as they might make my hair, even mild ones seem to cause frizz. Honey is a big culprit, but even aloe vera gel scrunched in seems to come with some frizz. I just accepted the latter as part of being a wavy, but since realizing honey is a problem and recently trying a poo bar with marshmallow root and also coming out with frizz, I've wondered if there is something about the local dew points (high humidity, often high dew points) that make it a bad idea for me to use humectants. Certainly it has seemed like emollients have been more effective and have helped to tame frizz.

Or could the problem be something else? Frizz aside, my hair generally comes out soft and so shiny (once braided or otherwise tamed) that I could see my face in it. But the frizz does not promote the waves, which I like to enhance when I'm going to leave it down.

Should I try going humectant-free? Does that even sound like a good idea?

gthlvrmx
August 14th, 2013, 08:27 PM
Suave ocean breeze is pretty humectant free except for one tiny ingredient :P Its lactic acid i think but i dunnoo i dont use it anymore i need more moisture. :P

I would try going humectant free OR try using a nice naturals conditioner like the suave ones, not too much, just enough humectant for in the shower and with all the moisture in there during the shower and warmth can help condition the hair, and then baby oil the hair or evoo/baby oil one after the other. :) Of course when damp.

Check if you're sensitive to protein! I think this needs to be done before having any hair disasters for anyone new to this, this brilliant idea hit my mind a month ago: try shed strand testing! It's the same for henna and dying, so why not try it with your shed hairs and test all these new ways to treat your hair with shed hairs? It'll help save your hair from another disaster so you won't have to go back and forth to change things XD I would advise that for newbies. Collect some hair and try it with that. The only thing you won't have luck with that way is your scalp. You have to check that yourself.
I'd just collect my hair that fell out during the week and when i wash and then experiment on that and see how that hair reacts. It should be the same really minus that you will not have as much sebum all over it on the top where it's attached to the follices.
I have hair from last year and there's no splits on it so...really maybe that's not the case as to why my hair on my head has so many splits XD The washing and manipulation seems to be the culprit :P
Shed hair strand testing might help before deciding to go into things. Just collect hair and then lay it out one by one into a braid or a lock and somehow get it all together in one piece like an extension :P maybe place them on paper and tape :)


And try an ACV rinse afterwards and dunking the hair in the cup for a few minutes before rinsing from head to ends of hair and then leave it in. It helps close the cuticles which helps retain moisture :p
Creates slip and causes less frizz, and then the oil helps out too :) Works for frizz and moisture loss.

Plus you can also try club soda before starting your wash routine, it helps take out minerals. Too much hard water makes my hair frizzy and dull so try that too :P

Check your hard water in your area if you got a filter thats great, soft water is fine! :)

Tori Angeli
August 14th, 2013, 08:35 PM
I suppose I should have talked a bit about what I've been doing!

Our water is not hard. I've been experimenting with shampoo bars lately, and before I CO-washed and oiled heavily every day. I've found that the poo bars have cut my routine down so I'm oiling very little when dry (argan oil, usually, and oiling when damp or wet results in stringiness) and spending less time in the shower and still coming out with nice shiny hair with much more body. So I basically just wash with the poo bar and do a white vinegar rinse every day (washing less often results in scalp problems--my skin in general is very sensitive and Suave conditioners irritate it for some reason), sometimes conditioning a little if it feels like my hair needs it. Today's wash did not need conditioning and still came out frizzy after using the marshmallow root bar.

That's the thing, though, my hair isn't dull, just frizzy.

Firefox7275
August 14th, 2013, 08:41 PM
I seem to have bad luck with humectants in general. As soft and shiny as they might make my hair, even mild ones seem to cause frizz. Honey is a big culprit, but even aloe vera gel scrunched in seems to come with some frizz. I just accepted the latter as part of being a wavy, but since realizing honey is a problem and recently trying a poo bar with marshmallow root and also coming out with frizz, I've wondered if there is something about the local dew points (high humidity, often high dew points) that make it a bad idea for me to use humectants. Certainly it has seemed like emollients have been more effective and have helped to tame frizz.

Or could the problem be something else? Frizz aside, my hair generally comes out soft and so shiny (once braided or otherwise tamed) that I could see my face in it. But the frizz does not promote the waves, which I like to enhance when I'm going to leave it down.

Should I try going humectant-free? Does that even sound like a good idea?

Have you quit brushing or combing, are applying products when very wet then not messing with the hair? Are you using enough leave in conditioner? What else was in the shampoo bar - they are usually based on harsh surfactants or alkaline soaps? Are you using oils as an ingredient in conditioner?

I wouldn't call straight up aloe vera gel a weak humectant, that will cause a lot of wavies and curlies a problem depending on the dews and their hair porosity. Marshmallow as an ingredient is a very weak humectant AFAIK. High humidity plus porous hair plus potent humectants absolutely makes the hair swell and frizz. Anionic surfactants change the charge on hair, soaps are alkaline so raise the cuticle, both damage the hair and increase porosity.

http://www.curlynikki.com/2012/03/indepth-look-at-porosity.html
http://www.curlynikki.com/2009/09/curl-whisperer-on-porosity.html

Tori Angeli
August 14th, 2013, 08:48 PM
I was hoping you'd reply to this, Firefox.

I'm not touching my hair out of the shower. In fact, I plop. I do not use leave-in conditioner for various reasons, mainly that it builds up quickly and never really seems to help. The shampoo bar was from Chagrin Valley and I think the only ingredient that was not an oil (saponified or not) was the marshmallow root. This is the one (http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/products/details/for-the-hair/shampoo-bars/babassu-marsh-mallow-shampoo-bar).

I don't know about porosity. My hair is not coarse at all. I have not had the frizz problem with every soap and have used a vinegar rinse after every wash. In fact, my hair looked so nice a few days ago from using one of CV's regular soap bars that I went ahead and wore it down for most of the day despite trying to keep wearing it up till September. That one had no recognizable humectants.

Firefox7275
August 14th, 2013, 09:04 PM
I was hoping you'd reply to this, Firefox.

I'm not touching my hair out of the shower. In fact, I plop. I do not use leave-in conditioner for various reasons, mainly that it builds up quickly and never really seems to help. The shampoo bar was from Chagrin Valley and I think the only ingredient that was not an oil (saponified or not) was the marshmallow root. This is the one (http://www.chagrinvalleysoapandsalve.com/products/details/for-the-hair/shampoo-bars/babassu-marsh-mallow-shampoo-bar).

I don't know about porosity. My hair is not coarse at all. I have not had the frizz problem with every soap and have used a vinegar rinse after every wash. In fact, my hair looked so nice a few days ago from using one of CV's regular soap bars that I went ahead and wore it down for most of the day despite trying to keep wearing it up till September. That one had no recognizable humectants.

We cross posted on your last post, and I just added two links you may find useful. Another link if you are struggling with understanding your hair properties
http://pedaheh.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/goosefootprints-hair-analysis-with-my.html
There is a trade off between body and frizz control hence root clipping, working upside down, root massage when dry.

Maybe the soap is a problem for you in specific dews, might be worth tracking it? IMO condition (wash out at least) after every wash, with any soap or shampoo you are stripping out not only the sebum but the hair's structural lipids, some ingredients in soap or shampoo will mask it: to some extent conditioner will protect from it, specific ingredients in conditioner will patch repair that damage.

Vinegar only resets the pH, it does not reverse all the damage, it will make hair shine but is not truly conditioning - that damage is more likely for high porosity hair than low, and for fine hair over coarse hair. How do you do with hydrolysed protein in a conditioner base or as a treatment? It can be drying if used to excess as it does have mild humectant properties, but is a film former so can confer shine, and is often used for body/ volume.

Have you tried okra gel or flaxseed gel? TBH I don't know how they will play with a soap bar and no conditioner, but many wavies and curlies rave about them. Various ingredients can be added, a touch of oil or a little protein or some magnesium sulphate say, depending what you think your hair likes/ climate dictates.

Tori Angeli
August 14th, 2013, 09:33 PM
I'm pretty sure my porosity is normal. I certainly do not have highly porous hair--running my fingers up the hair shaft, it doesn't feel very different from running it down, for most strands. A few strands are slightly kinky toward the ends, and I suspect since those are lighter strands that they are a bit sun-damaged.

I have to be extremely careful about proteins. I might use one every few weeks, and only to be on the safe side, but frequent use results in strawlike ends. I've considered trying flaxseed gel, but haven't managed to do so yet.

At the moment my previously frizzy hair is braided and attempting to still be frizzy, but very shiny and the tassle is smooth and silky.

ETA: The frizziness I am experiencing can best be described as a loss of wave definition. The hair, left to dry without combing, dries fairly straight and poofy as though I had brushed it.

gthlvrmx
August 14th, 2013, 11:12 PM
I'm pretty sure my porosity is normal. I certainly do not have highly porous hair--running my fingers up the hair shaft, it doesn't feel very different from running it down, for most strands. A few strands are slightly kinky toward the ends, and I suspect since those are lighter strands that they are a bit sun-damaged.

I have to be extremely careful about proteins. I might use one every few weeks, and only to be on the safe side, but frequent use results in strawlike ends. I've considered trying flaxseed gel, but haven't managed to do so yet.

At the moment my previously frizzy hair is braided and attempting to still be frizzy, but very shiny and the tassle is smooth and silky.

ETA: The frizziness I am experiencing can best be described as a loss of wave definition. The hair, left to dry without combing, dries fairly straight and poofy as though I had brushed it.

POO bar! Ok yeah i forgot! Thats awesome! :D I think some people experience build up or something with it, sorry i have no information on that XD I heard some people cannot use it it causes frizz. So sorry i cannot help on that.
You know what the only thing i remember is that people using poo bars can't really use ACV for some reason. I don't have the link you can look it up but i read that a while ago. I hope it's true maybe that's the answer to your problems.
Maybe?

Tori Angeli
August 15th, 2013, 05:58 AM
I'm not having any buildup, and at this point I don't really think the bar is responsible for my loss of definition, since certain bars don't cause it. Moreover, I noticed this problem when using humectants long before I started using poo bars.

I don't use ACV. I use white vinegar and it's very common to use some form of vinegar rinse with a poo bar because soap is so alkaline. The vinegar closes the cuticle after it has been raised by the soap.

Still, I think I'll try using the same bar tonight and using conditioner no matter how slippery it feels, just to see if that helps restore some sort of lipid balance that pulls the waves together. Thanks, Firefox.

Tori Angeli
August 15th, 2013, 08:18 PM
Well it turns out different hair care routines require...different hair care routines. I never needed to use leave-in condish when CO-washing, but I needed lots and lots of oils. Now I'm using oil-heavy poo bars I don't need much oil, but scrunching conditioner into soaking wet hair and leaving that to dry seems to have solved my problem and left me is nicely defined, shiny waves and wurls. Thank you again, Firefox.