coco betaine & cocamidopropyl betaine

[samanthajenalyn]

this may be a dumb question, and im sorry if it is :/
what is the difference in these, and what do they do? are they bad for your hair? ive heard one of them gets cones out of your hair, which one does this?
thanks so much!

[NoRush]

I'm pretty sure they're the same compound and it's a mild surfactant and antistatic, it has a mountain of sinonyms and it's pretty much everywhere. As for damage, it would depend on the amount in the product but over all I don't believe it's particularly aggressive.

[Firefox7275]

AFAIK all the betaines can shift silicone build up in the right formulation but cocoamidopropyl betaine is the most commonly seen and well known.
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/whats-the-scoop-on-silicones
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/ingredients/zwitterionic-surfactants-a-milder-alternative

[samanthajenalyn]

AFAIK all the betaines can shift silicone build up in the right formulation but cocoamidopropyl betaine is the most commonly seen and well known.
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curl-products/whats-the-scoop-on-silicones
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/ingredients/zwitterionic-surfactants-a-milder-alternative

I use RenPure Cleansing Conditioner and it has cocoamidopropyl betaine as the second ingredient. i was wondering if i would even need to use a clarify shampoo since this is one of the main ingredients in my everyday cleansing conditioner?

[Firefox7275]

I use RenPure Cleansing Conditioner and it has cocoamidopropyl betaine as the second ingredient. i was wondering if i would even need to use a clarify shampoo since this is one of the main ingredients in my everyday cleansing conditioner?

I can't tell you either way since I have not tried Renpure and don't know your full routine, but I do notice oils and a couple of silicones in the Renpure formulation, as well as the expected emollients. You wouldn't normally have oils and conditioning ingredients in a classic clarifier so I don't think it would be effective as one if you had build up. However if you are not using other products/ ingredients that are prone to building up (eg. silicone-y heat protection or serums, waxes, butters, petroleum jelly) that cleansing conditioner may well be enough to prevent build up so that you don't need to clarify.

[samanthajenalyn]

I can't tell you either way since I have not tried Renpure and don't know your full routine, but I do notice oils and a couple of silicones in the Renpure formulation, as well as the expected emollients. You wouldn't normally have oils and conditioning ingredients in a classic clarifier so I don't think it would be effective as one if you had build up. However if you are not using other products/ ingredients that are prone to building up (eg. silicone-y heat protection or serums, waxes, butters, petroleum jelly) that cleansing conditioner may well be enough to prevent build up so that you don't need to clarify.

The only things i use are the renpure cleansing conditioner, shea moisture restorative conditioner as a leave in, and either olive or coconut oil.
lately my hair has just been feeling weird and not clean enough, so i just thought a clarifying shampoo would help. but when i was reading the ingredients of the renpure, i noticed that and was just wondering if there was any point since i use the cleansing conditioner with that ingredient.

[Firefox7275]

The only things i use are the renpure cleansing conditioner, shea moisture restorative conditioner as a leave in, and either olive or coconut oil.
lately my hair has just been feeling weird and not clean enough, so i just thought a clarifying shampoo would help. but when i was reading the ingredients of the renpure, i noticed that and was just wondering if there was any point since i use the cleansing conditioner with that ingredient.

Shea butter can build up, it doesn't mix well with conditioner so residues may not shift. That particular conditioner is very low in the major water soluble emollients (fatty alcohols and cationic surfactants in red) but is wall-to-wall water repellent occlusives (butters, oils and waxes in blue), I don't understand why you are then adding olive and coconut oils? I suspect you are simply overloading your hair with occlusives not balancing your routine with emollients, proteins, humectants or whatever else your hair properties dictate. Even a clarifying shampoo can only shift so much oil or butter residue, there are more 'true' conditioning agents in your cleansing than your conditioning product.

"Deionized Water, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter)*, Argan Oil, Coconut Oil*, Behentrimonium Chloride, Essential Oil Blend, Vegetable Glycerin, Emulsifying Wax, Sea Kelp Extract, Panthenol (Vitamin B‐5), Avocado Oil, Lonicera Caprifolium (Honeysuckle) Flower (and) Lonicera Japonica (Japanese Honeysuckle) Flower extract, Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Daucus Carota Sativa (Carrot) Seed Oil."
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlproducts/view/5599/sheamoisture-raw-shea-butter-restorative-conditioner-conditioner-12-oz


"Purified Water, Cocamidopropyl Betaine (Coconut Oil*), Cetyl Alcohol (Palm Oil*), Glyceryl Stearate (Palm Oil*), Behentrimonium Chloride (Rapeseed Oil*), Argania Spinosa (Argan*) Kernel Oil, Hypnea Musciformis Extract (Red Seaweed*), Gellidiela Acerosa Extract (Red Alga*), Sargassum Filipendula Extract (Brown Seaweed*), Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower*) Seed Oil, Cocos Nucifera (Coconut*) Oil, Punica Granatum (Pomegranate*) Fruit Extract, Hydrolyzed Pea Protein, Psidium Guajava (Guava*) Fruit Extract, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter*) Oil, Sorbitol (Sugar*), Amodimethicone, Trideceth-12, Cetrimonium Chloride (Palm Oil*), Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride (Guar Bean*), Glycereth-26 (Coconut Oil*), Silicone Quaternium-17, Diazolidinyl Urea, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Butylene Glycol, Disodium EDTA, Fragrance. (* Derived Source)"
http://www.renpure.com/cleansing-conditioners

[samanthajenalyn]

i was using the oils to control friz, since the humidity is always 70% or higher where i live. i also have high porosity, medium density 2a/2b hair. im really new to this so i dont really know what all i need to be using. what would you suggest changing? :/
oh and since ive started using these, my hair isnt nearly as damaged as it was, it looks and feels a LOT better. so im willing to change if it would help it even more.
id appreciate any advice.

[lilliemer]

I have a similar problem to you with porous ends mostly due to old damage and life in a humid climate (at least this time of year). My hair did not do well with coconut oil - it made my ends extremely dry, fragile, and crunchy. It seems to tolerate olive oil a bit better. I like shea butter but have noticed that it does tend to build up, so I clarify frequently (at least twice a month). The sulfate-free shampoos (and I have tried several) don't really seem to take care of it.

Firefox - your breakdown of the different ingredients is tremendously helpful -- Keep the chemistry coming! Can you explain the difference between humectant and emollient? Thanks!!

[samanthajenalyn]

i first used coconut oil about a week ago, and since then is when it started being limp and gross feeling. i think ill switch back to olive oil.

[Firefox7275]

i was using the oils to control friz, since the humidity is always 70% or higher where i live. i also have high porosity, medium density 2a/2b hair. im really new to this so i dont really know what all i need to be using. what would you suggest changing? :/
oh and since ive started using these, my hair isnt nearly as damaged as it was, it looks and feels a LOT better. so im willing to change if it would help it even more.
id appreciate any advice.

You should not need to use that much oil to control frizz even on porous hair, that suggests the rest of your routine is off - techniques are at least as important as product selection, also product amount is key. Are you following the Curly Girl method? Is your hair fine, course or medium? Fine and damaged hair do particularly well with hydrolysed protein either as a deep treatment or within the leave in, tho again balance and moderation are important. Other ingredients beneficial for damaged hair include panthenol, ceramides, 18-MEA (never seen a silicone free product with this tho). Together these help to reduce porosity and seal the cuticle keeping excess water out.

If you are in very high or low dews avoid or limit the potent humectants (water attracting) - glycerin, propylene glycol, honey, maybe aloe vera - these can attract too much water to the hair making it swell and frizz.

Coconut oil is the king for reducing porosity but you may well get strange results if you overuse it OR use it on hair that is already completely overloaded with oils and butters. You say you added that a week ago but actually you were already using it in your leave in conditioner. It may be that was simply 'the straw that broke the camels back', maybe it will only suit you as a weekly pre-wash, maybe oanly a little in your intensive conditioner, it can even be blended into styling gel to aid even thin distribution. IMO lose the shea butter because that builds up, does not penetrate and does not give slip/ reduce friction, in fact butters can make combing harder.

[Firefox7275]

I have a similar problem to you with porous ends mostly due to old damage and life in a humid climate (at least this time of year). My hair did not do well with coconut oil - it made my ends extremely dry, fragile, and crunchy. It seems to tolerate olive oil a bit better. I like shea butter but have noticed that it does tend to build up, so I clarify frequently (at least twice a month). The sulfate-free shampoos (and I have tried several) don't really seem to take care of it.

Firefox - your breakdown of the different ingredients is tremendously helpful -- Keep the chemistry coming! Can you explain the difference between humectant and emollient? Thanks!!

Oh I am pleased I am not boring everyone! We discussed that on Naturallycurly relatively recently funnily enough. Ingredients that are primarily humectants (water attracting) can also have emollience (softening, reduce friction/ lubricate) as a secondary property and those that are emollients can also be weak humectants so there is overlap. I go by the 'main' property when chatting on forums because it's easier, because many ingredients have multiple properties you may see them discussed in a different category or more than one category.
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/159562-what-difference-between-conditioner-moisturizer.html

Coconut oil definitely in moderation and find the right delivery route for you: my hair loves it as a prewash on fairly clean dry hair, but as a leave in I get stringy greasy limp hair, somewhat hard in cooler weather. Some do best with coconut oil as an ingredient not straight up, which is why I try to word things as which ingredients are beneficial for porous hair. The only time I had a bad experience with coconut oil I used it as a prewash layered over other products, including a fair amount of protein and residues of a recent semi permanent colour. Other occlusives rich in lauric acid include palm kernel oil, babassu oil or tucuma butter.

If you prefer olive oil go ahead, the oleic acid certainly can penetrate so common sense would suggest it may reduce porosity and increase elasticity. No evidence it can reduce damage or help retain structural proteins, if you want or need that property. Some prefer other sources of oleic acid including avocado oil which is 'lighter' than olive. This study suggests oils generally are 'better' than butters generally
http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2009/cc060n02/p00273-p00280.pdf

[samanthajenalyn]

You should not need to use that much oil to control frizz even on porous hair, that suggests the rest of your routine is off - techniques are at least as important as product selection, also product amount is key. Are you following the Curly Girl method? Is your hair fine, course or medium? Fine and damaged hair do particularly well with hydrolysed protein either as a deep treatment or within the leave in, tho again balance and moderation are important. Other ingredients beneficial for damaged hair include panthenol, ceramides, 18-MEA (never seen a silicone free product with this tho). Together these help to reduce porosity and seal the cuticle keeping excess water out.

If you are in very high or low dews avoid or limit the potent humectants (water attracting) - glycerin, propylene glycol, honey, maybe aloe vera - these can attract too much water to the hair making it swell and frizz.

Coconut oil is the king for reducing porosity but you may well get strange results if you overuse it OR use it on hair that is already completely overloaded with oils and butters. You say you added that a week ago but actually you were already using it in your leave in conditioner. It may be that was simply 'the straw that broke the camels back', maybe it will only suit you as a weekly pre-wash, maybe oanly a little in your intensive conditioner, it can even be blended into styling gel to aid even thin distribution. IMO lose the shea butter because that builds up, does not penetrate and does not give slip/ reduce friction, in fact butters can make combing harder.

i do somewhat follow the curlygirl method, but i rarely use any mousse or gel, i just dont like the way it makes my hair feel. i detangle in the shower with conditioner, then once im out i usually use the leave in, and a few drops of oil. i do not brush or comb, only use my finger. i never use sulfates (unless clarifying) and i only use an a-cone, which is in my cleansing conditioner. i have medium hair, with a few weird thick black and very curly hairs that are starting to grow on top. i live in south georgia, so we have high dew and humidity, especially around this time of year. if you suggest i stop using the shea moisture restorative conditioner as a leave in, what other drug store brand leave in would you recommend? also, should i not use any of the shea moisture products, or just that particular one?
Thank you very much, FireFox! :)

[samanthajenalyn]

i forgot to add, my hair is pretty damaged due to years of heat & chemical damage and everyday washing. recently i got all of my split ends cut off, which ended up being about three inches or more. before i switched to these products my hair was a frizzy poofy mess, but changing my routine has helped my hair DRAMATICALLY. so if you can suggest any other product or tips that would keep my hair healthy, i would appreciate it!