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queenofheartz44
July 26th, 2013, 05:47 AM
Hello! I'm looking at the information for hair typing and have questions. My hair is relaxed, I'm half black and half white and with the relaxed hair I'm not sure what the type is. Is it the part that's relaxed which is all of it, or the part that's unrelaxed (new-growth). From what I've seen in the new growth it's the tight curls like corkscrews, but after my relaxer it ends up wavy-curlyish. I included an album that shows my hair now.

Note: the pictures with the black and blue striped shirt is my hair after a hot oil treatment and aside from that has had nothing added to it or done to it. The pictures with the black shirt is my hair after letting out my nightly french braid.

http://s839.photobucket.com/user/ladybug_girlie20/library/new?sort=3&page=1 (http://s839.photobucket.com/user/ladybug_girlie20/library/new?sort=3&page=1)

Thank you!!

Firefox7275
July 26th, 2013, 06:20 AM
It's impossible to type relaxed hair unless you have a fair bit of new growth. Visual typing guide for the natural part of your hair here http://www.naturallycurly.com/hair-types

queenofheartz44
July 26th, 2013, 06:25 AM
From the link my new growth is 3c, relaxed 2a/2b. I end up confused by it because my hair is.different. The hair I deal with on a day to day basis is wavyish so should I just buy or make (one of my goals for here) my own stuff for coarse, wavy hair? Sorry for all the questions! You've probably seen the barrage of post I've done recently.:)

torrilin
July 26th, 2013, 07:27 AM
Usually curly hair is fairly fine, not coarse. Relaxers and perms use fairly similar chemical processes, and they are very damaging to your hair. Do that on top of hair that's already fine and thus fragile, and it can wind up seriously limiting your potential hair length. That's why you don't see a lot of posts here about maintaining long and relaxed hair... or long and permed hair either! The damage from the chemicals also tends to make your hair feel rougher than it is naturally, so people often identify it as coarse when it isn't.

Depending on your hair and your intended hair length, it *may* be doable to maintain a relaxed look. But if you want your hair to grow past waist length, it's fairly unlikely that you can maintain that and a relaxed look. That would be a very very very high maintenance goal, and you'd also be hoping you really struck it lucky in terms of your hair's natural durability. Since most of us value length and low upkeep very highly, that's not a goal we're going to be terribly helpful on. (and well, a lot of the straighties here wish we could have pretty springs, so naturally we're biased and want the curlies to stay curly and springy ;) )

Firefox7275
July 26th, 2013, 08:13 AM
From the link my new growth is 3c, relaxed 2a/2b. I end up confused by it because my hair is.different. The hair I deal with on a day to day basis is wavyish so should I just buy or make (one of my goals for here) my own stuff for coarse, wavy hair? Sorry for all the questions! You've probably seen the barrage of post I've done recently.:)

Your natural curl pattern is 3c, the rest is just damaged curly hair it's not a different curl pattern naturally so you can't really type it. Are you wearing your hair wavy or straightening that right out in some way? Your hair properties are more than just coarse, you need to consider porosity, elasticity and the overall level of damage when choosing products. It's also useful to know your dew points/ humidity, you can download a free app ('Curls on the Go') if you have a smartphone, if not check out the 'Frizz Forecast' on main Naturallycurly site.

I'm not sure why Torrilin says curly hair is usually fine, AFAIK Afro-Caribbean curly hair is often (but not always) medium or coarse, caucasian curly hair is generally (but not always) fine or medium, and Asian curly hair often (but not always!) coarse. Once you factor in those who have mixed heritage anything is possible.

For chemical damaged hair try coconut oil, ceramides and panthenol, hydrolysed protein can also be used for strength and restructuring but start with a very weak product and work up, coarse hair does not always like protein.

queenofheartz44
July 26th, 2013, 02:33 PM
Your natural curl pattern is 3c, the rest is just damaged curly hair it's not a different curl pattern naturally so you can't really type it. Are you wearing your hair wavy or straightening that right out in some way? Your hair properties are more than just coarse, you need to consider porosity, elasticity and the overall level of damage when choosing products. It's also useful to know your dew points/ humidity, you can download a free app ('Curls on the Go') if you have a smartphone, if not check out the 'Frizz Forecast' on main Naturallycurly site.

I'm not sure why Torrilin says curly hair is usually fine, AFAIK Afro-Caribbean curly hair is often (but not always) medium or coarse, caucasian curly hair is generally (but not always) fine or medium, and Asian curly hair often (but not always!) coarse. Once you factor in those who have mixed heritage anything is possible.

For chemical damaged hair try coconut oil, ceramides and panthenol, hydrolysed protein can also be used for strength and restructuring but start with a very weak product and work up, coarse hair does not always like protein.

My hair when air dried is wavy and fluffy, I do use my flat iron 1-3 a week with a heat protectant to smooth it out. That app sounds really helpful, thank you so much.

queenofheartz44
July 26th, 2013, 02:51 PM
I do the relaxers on new-growth only every 12-14 weeks, Sally's beauty supply has been very helpful in deciding which ones to use ans what to stay away from. I've had them done since I was a child and now do them just to maintain the smoother look and ease of styling I get from them. I won't lie I do love my relaxed hair :) It really doesn't feel like a chore or high maintenance to me, I buy my kits do them, and intensify my conditioning treatment, to me they are almost as natural as breathing.

I do know they are very damaging, one would be foolish to think you can do such treatment and not pay some penalty for it. We seem to have struck a balance now which is something I couldn't attest to a couple years ago, although since I was regnant my hair really has seem to have changed, even the new-growth is different.

I can't quite put my fingers on what it is but something about it is indeed different, like it's finally mellowed out. I've heard your hair texture changes as you grow, I'm wondering if that could be the case or perhaps an effect from the pregnancy? It is something that changes your body, temporarily and in some aspects permanently, so why would that not apply to hair?

I was looking at joining another long hair site, I don't know if I can say the name or if I would get in trouble for violating something but it seemed to be specifically for women of color. Reading through some of the posts about relaxed vs. natural hair was truly shocking. It's as nasty an argument as breastfeeding vs. bottle feeding! I decided that I would not be part of such a community that participates in such cruel and demeaning remarks to another person simply because they choose to relax their hair rather than let it be 'natural'. In looking around here I've yet to encounter such hostility and truly grateful for your polite responses. I'm always a bit on guard when discussing my hair because of aforementioned hostility and it's nice to be able to relax a little bit. I swear no pun intended! XOXO

lapushka
July 26th, 2013, 03:04 PM
No one is going to be nasty to you because you choose to relax your hair. As long as you're aware of the fact that it *is* indeed very damaging, I guess you'll be all right. I don't think you can expect to grow your hair as long as normal, without the relaxer, but who knows... everyone's different and there's exceptions to every rule.

When I had my hair permed, I grew it out to beyond hip length but I'm guessing a relaxer is even worse than a simple perm is.

Firefox7275
July 27th, 2013, 07:43 AM
My hair when air dried is wavy and fluffy, I do use my flat iron 1-3 a week with a heat protectant to smooth it out. That app sounds really helpful, thank you so much.


I do the relaxers on new-growth only every 12-14 weeks, Sally's beauty supply has been very helpful in deciding which ones to use ans what to stay away from. I've had them done since I was a child and now do them just to maintain the smoother look and ease of styling I get from them. I won't lie I do love my relaxed hair :) It really doesn't feel like a chore or high maintenance to me, I buy my kits do them, and intensify my conditioning treatment, to me they are almost as natural as breathing.

I do know they are very damaging, one would be foolish to think you can do such treatment and not pay some penalty for it. We seem to have struck a balance now which is something I couldn't attest to a couple years ago, although since I was regnant my hair really has seem to have changed, even the new-growth is different.

I can't quite put my fingers on what it is but something about it is indeed different, like it's finally mellowed out. I've heard your hair texture changes as you grow, I'm wondering if that could be the case or perhaps an effect from the pregnancy? It is something that changes your body, temporarily and in some aspects permanently, so why would that not apply to hair?

I was looking at joining another long hair site, I don't know if I can say the name or if I would get in trouble for violating something but it seemed to be specifically for women of color. Reading through some of the posts about relaxed vs. natural hair was truly shocking. It's as nasty an argument as breastfeeding vs. bottle feeding! I decided that I would not be part of such a community that participates in such cruel and demeaning remarks to another person simply because they choose to relax their hair rather than let it be 'natural'. In looking around here I've yet to encounter such hostility and truly grateful for your polite responses. I'm always a bit on guard when discussing my hair because of aforementioned hostility and it's nice to be able to relax a little bit. I swear no pun intended! XOXO

I promise I am not 'telling you off' here considering I chemical treat my hair (permanent dye) myself and have ZERO intention of stopping, I am just explaining a little science as I understand it and will get onto possible solutions. You will struggle massively to have longer healthy hair if you relax AND flat iron, these are two of the most damaging things you can do to the internal structure of the hair particularly. Because it is dead hair cannot be permanently repaired, you can only patch up damage. Chemical treating changes the 'charge' on the hair making it more anionic, shampoos containing anionic surfactants (most of them!!) make this much worse and can be a major cause of frizz/ poof in wavy or curly or damaged hair.

If you want to keep on relaxing no problem but consider quitting the flat iron - if you want straight hair from wavy there are heatless methods. IMO shampoo with a product that is pH 4.5 to 5.5 and based on nonionic or zwitterionic surfactants OR conditioner only wash at least some of the time (these are cationic so opposite to charge to shampoo or damaged hair), then apply a smoothing leave in conditioner to fairly wet hair, blot excess water with a smooth towel (yes after conditioner!), 'wet wrap' and leave hair to air dry perhaps overnight. Ingredients that help reduce damage, penetrate or patch repair include coconut oil, hydrolysed protein, ceramides and panthenol - ideally use a balance of them all for best results. I use all four on my colour treated hair and have grown out the worst of my damage (very porous and some breakage) over the last two years, my new hair is way less fluffy/ poofy even when washed with no conditioner, I believe that is because the protective cuticle/ fatty layer of my hair is much less damaged.
http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/celebrities/ingredients-commonly-found-in-hair-care-products

If you do heat style for a special occasion of course silicones are useful and found in most heat protectants, other proven ingredients include hydrolysed proteins, some polyquats, propylene glycol and glycerin - using more than one may give you the best protection. The Natural Haven blog is excellent, even tho it's aimed at 'natural' kinky coily hair is useful to wavies like me, I have not noticed it be judgemental about relaxing or straightening just explaining the science of healthy and damaged hair and product/ ingredient use. Several articles refer to research on colour treated or relaxed hair. The 'curl chemist' series of articles by Tonya Mckay on Naturallycurly are also very useful, again aimed at those wearing their hair curly but not judgemental just science in plain English.

http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2009/12/thermal-protection-do-they-really-work.html
http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2009/05/straightening-factshow-hot-is-too-hot.html
http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/05/straightening-hair-relax-or-heat.html
http://thebeautybrains.com/2008/04/29/how-to-protect-your-hair-from-heat-damage/

queenofheartz44
July 29th, 2013, 01:30 AM
Firefox7275: Thank you for your response and links, I read all of them and found them to be very informative. Question, silicones seem to provide a benefit to hair, why is there so much talk about no silicones in hair care on here? Is it personally preference or is it like SLS?

Firefox7275
July 29th, 2013, 08:25 AM
Firefox7275: Thank you for your response and links, I read all of them and found them to be very informative. Question, silicones seem to provide a benefit to hair, why is there so much talk about no silicones in hair care on here? Is it personally preference or is it like SLS?

Sulphate surfactants (not just sodium lauryl sulphate) and some other anionic surfactants are damaging to hair and/ or skin. Silicones are not damaging and they do have their place in haircare, they are particularly good for heat protection and for detangling for example. However they can build up so you may need to use harsher shampoos to keep hair clean, many long hairs and curly hair prefer to avoid shampoo altogether. There are about seven (!) articles by 'curl chemist' Tonya McKay on silicones on NaturallyCurly, this is because silicones is a large family and they do have different properties - they are all worth a read as they give a balanced view.

I avoid silicones myself for a number of reasons, firstly I prefer to conditioner only wash exclusively so I cannot remove build up, secondly I relied on silicones for years and they did not give me anything approaching healthy gorgeous hair so now I am trying a totally different route ('strict' Curly Girl). Thirdly I don't like being fooled by the faux shine and slip I prefer my hair to be 'naturally' shiny and easy to detangle, if I need silicones at my current length (APL/ BSL) that is telling me I am damaging my hair too much, fourthly I have better frizz control bounce and curl formation without silicones but with alternatives that have similar properties and also penetrate and/ or closely mimic the components my hair has lost through dying. I now rely on science backed ingredients like coconut oil, hydrolysed protein, ceramides and panthenol: may go back to some water soluble silicones if I ever hit waist, I may then need them for detangling.

queenofheartz44
July 29th, 2013, 03:24 PM
Will doing ACV rinses help remove the buildup?

queenofheartz44
July 29th, 2013, 03:25 PM
I've wondered about that as well, it seems like a perm in reverse so who knows maybe more or less damaging depending on the application.:)

torrilin
July 29th, 2013, 03:45 PM
Firefox7275: Thank you for your response and links, I read all of them and found them to be very informative. Question, silicones seem to provide a benefit to hair, why is there so much talk about no silicones in hair care on here? Is it personally preference or is it like SLS?

For me, the no silicones is largely a by product of other choices. I have pretty strong reactions to certain fragrances. Some of them (like narcissus) the actual flower is not safe for me to go sniff. I'll wind up with a horrible headache. For other stuff, it's less clearly pinned down. There's so many different ingredients involved that I do better using fragrance free products whenever possible, and my mom and my sister will patch test stuff on themselves and *then* test on me (and vice versa... they react to latex, I don't).

Since it's a lot easier to find fragrance free products in cosmetic lines that advertise as "natural" or "organic", I often wind up avoiding silicone in my search for fragrance free products. I'm definitely not opposed to 'cones. But I'm very opposed to being itchy, headachy or covered in hives! Everyone varies in their priorities, and for some folks, silicones do cause problems whether from too harsh cleansers or build up.

queenofheartz44
July 29th, 2013, 04:29 PM
Would it be worth investigating homemade shampoos and conditioners?

jacqueline101
July 29th, 2013, 04:55 PM
Hair has to be natural, washed, and unstyled. You should air dry it.

Firefox7275
July 29th, 2013, 05:20 PM
Will doing ACV rinses help remove the buildup?

No that is the point, build up of some ingredients can only be shifted with very harsh cleansing methods.


I've wondered about that as well, it seems like a perm in reverse so who knows maybe more or less damaging depending on the application.:)

More or less damaging absolutely but still damaging, with any chemical process it is a spectrum. I promise that is not me be being judgmental, I LOVE my unnatural colour!

Relaxing or curly perms break the protein bonds in hair which are critical in strength and elasticity and they are reformed in a much weaker shape, bleaching/ peroxiding (which I do) destroys the pigment melanin which blows holes in the cortex of the hair making hair porous, both processes destroy the cell membrane complex which is the protective surface layer. I don't say this to be mean because I do it myself, I honestly believe understanding the damage is the first step to limiting it and to at least patch repairing it. Most people here know that ripping a brush or comb through their knots is damaging so they find a gentler way to detangle, they don't judge anyone for brushing or combing!

queenofheartz44
July 29th, 2013, 05:30 PM
:D Very true! You and I seem to be in the same boat as far as chemically altering our hair, yours is color mine is relaxing. Although I am growing out colored/relaxed hair :run: I do plan on switching to Henna which brings up questions in and of itself!

leslissocool
July 29th, 2013, 06:38 PM
I say type your natural hair, relaxed is altered IMO and harder to type.


I have Wurly super coarse hair, coarser than anyone I've met IRL. How is yours? Coarse hair would be actually good, it can withstand more damage.


Henna got rid of my curl a bit.

queenofheartz44
July 29th, 2013, 11:39 PM
Natural hair is 3b-3c/thick/coarse. :) I guess the coarseness explains its...sturdiness. It has been put through the wringer over the years and the fact that it's still there is nothing short of a miracle!

Firefox7275
July 30th, 2013, 05:40 AM
:D Very true! You and I seem to be in the same boat as far as chemically altering our hair, yours is color mine is relaxing. Although I am growing out colored/relaxed hair :run: I do plan on switching to Henna which brings up questions in and of itself!

Well if you have relaxed and coloured and flat ironed I definitely recommend coconut oil, ceramides, panthenol and possibly hydrolysed protein - do experiment with weak protein first, it may be your coarse hair does not like it. I struggle with the hardcore drying type protein treatments, my hair much prefers a conditioner/ 'moisturising' type base.