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heathen
July 18th, 2013, 12:29 AM
The weirdest thing happened after my shower tonight. I'm hoping someone with a more advanced knowledge of ingredients can help me out.

I washed my hair with products I normally use (perhaps in a new combination?), and I was happy because my hair felt super soft and moisturized and detangled and lovely... And I was excited because I was going to try a new method of braiding my hair for waves. Love the feeling of knowing I will wake up to a great hair day!

Anyway, so, everything was fine as I began to braid...but, as my hair started to dry a little it turned really rubbery, with the ends being the worst. My hair has NEVER, ever felt like this before. It was bizarre because when my hair was wet it was super tangle free and smooth. My hair was actually grabbing on my hand and was tangling like I have never seen it before. It was balling up and knotting like crazy. I could barely finish braiding my hair. I mean, my hair can tangle quite a bit naturally, but this felt wholly unnatural and weird. I know it has to do with something I used on my hair.

I can list what I used, so perhaps someone who knows ingredients can identify the problem? I am kind of at a loss and a little afraid for what my hair is going to do once I take it out of the braids tomorrow...

So, this is what I used in the order I used it:

SheaMoisture Moisture Retention Shampoo:

Deionized Water , Decyl Glucoside (Sugar Beets) , African Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter) , Aloe Vera Leaf Juice , Argan Oil , Panthenol (Provitamin B5) , Rosemary Extract , Sea Kelp Extract , Vitamin E , Lonicera Caprifolium Flower Extract (Honeysuckle) , Lonicera Japonica Flower Extract (Japanese Honeysuckle)

Redken All Soft:

Aqua/water, cetearyl alcohol, behentrimonium chloride, elabis sinensis oil/palm oil, cetyl alcohol, isopropyl alcohol, stearaminepropyl dimethylamine, octyldodecanol, sodium PCA, parfum/fragrance, citric acid, chlorhexidine dihydrochloride, argania spinosa oil, argania spinosa kernel oil, arginine, hydrolyzed soy protein, vegetable protein, peg-propyl silanetriol.

Kinky Curly Knot Today:

Organic mango extract, organic slipper elm, organic marshmallow root, organic lemongrass, cetyl alcohol, behentrimonium methosulfate, citric acid, phenoxyethanol and natural fragrance.


SheaMoisture Curl Enhancing Smoothie:

Deionized Water , Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter) , Cocos Nucifera Oil (Coconut) , Macadamia Ternifolia Seed Oil , Persea Gratissima Oil (Avocado) , Vegetable Glycerin , Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Extract , Silk Protein , Ammonium Salt , Melia Azadirachta Seed Oil (Neem) , Daucus Carota Sativa Seed Oil (Carrot) , Sorbitol Esters , Panthenol (Pro-Vitamin B-5) , Caprylyl Glycol , Essential Oil Blend , Tocopherol (Vitamin E)


I put everything on while I was still in the shower on dripping wet hair.

Still haven't figured out my hair's porosity, though my first thought was maybe this was an adverse reaction to protein?

Thanks for reading!!

jeanniet
July 18th, 2013, 01:13 AM
I don't know. The shampoo should be fine; don't know about the Redken; KCKT fine; the smoothie fine as well. The smoothie could be too heavy for your hair, but many people use it in conjunction with the KCKT so I don't think it would be a product interaction. It's unlikely to be a protein issue, because that would generally make your hair more brittle. Did you use everything just the same way you normally do? Is there any difference in your water, environment, or weather?

Audhumla
July 18th, 2013, 02:51 AM
Sounds like your hair is over moisturised to me.
It doesn't necessarily have to be a new product or combination of products, the effect can build up over time until your hair has just had enough and since you said these were your usual products I'd say that's what has happened.
Try cutting out the moisture treatments and products with aloe vera and glycerine in them for a while and maybe try some adding some protein back into your routine.
I see the Redken product has protein but it's down at the bottom of the list of ingredients.
Maybe try an egg treatment or a prewash coconut milk treatment (make sure you thoroughly wash it out with your shampoo and more importantly conditioner as conditioner is more effective at removing excess oil) coconut oil could also help in conjunction with other protein treatments.

Firefox7275
July 18th, 2013, 06:11 AM
I don't think you can be over conditioned, you aren't actually using much in the way of true conditioners - rich in cationic surfactant and fatty alcohols - Kinky Curly Knot Today is a detangler not a conditioner. Shea butter can be sticky or build up, it's not something I would opt for when I want slip for manipulating hair. Otherwise possibly the humectants - glycerin, sodium PCA, aloe vera.

Neither egg nor coconut milk contain proteins of the size that can be absorb, they are too large.

Audhumla
July 18th, 2013, 07:50 AM
I don't think you can be over conditioned, you aren't actually using much in the way of true conditioners - rich in cationic surfactant and fatty alcohols - Kinky Curly Knot Today is a detangler not a conditioner. Shea butter can be sticky or build up, it's not something I would opt for when I want slip for manipulating hair. Otherwise possibly the humectants - glycerin, sodium PCA, aloe vera.

Neither egg nor coconut milk contain proteins of the size that can be absorb, they are too large.

I mean over moisturised in the sense that the humectants are drawing too much moisture to the hair not over conditioned.
Coconut milk and oil treatments were what I suggested because the coconut oil has worked for a few people to help extend/enhance the effects of protein treatments.

Anje
July 18th, 2013, 08:20 AM
Rubbery in what sense? Stretchy? Stick-to-itself-ness?

It would help to know a bit more hair history, too. Have you done chemical treatments (relaxers/perms, bleach, etc?)?

The All-Soft looks like it's decently conditioning (cat. surfactants and some fatty alcohols), but it's got isopropyl alcohol which IMO has no business being in any conditioner. The rest are more oil and humectant-based. I see silk protein in on of your products; it's not a problem for most people, but my hair hates it and turns into velcro with a few exposures to it.

MiaBeth
July 18th, 2013, 08:48 AM
This happened to my hair once after I used Ojon Damage Reverse Restorative conditioner -- it was totally rubbery, especially the underneath. I clarified my next wash and haven't used it since and have not had the rubberey-ness return.

marymonster
July 18th, 2013, 08:50 AM
I'd try a clarifying shampoo and a protein rich conditioner.

spidermom
July 18th, 2013, 08:59 AM
Sounds like buildup to me. A clarifying wash or two should put things right again.

Firefox7275
July 18th, 2013, 09:06 AM
I mean over moisturised in the sense that the humectants are drawing too much moisture to the hair not over conditioned.
Coconut milk and oil treatments were what I suggested because the coconut oil has worked for a few people to help extend/enhance the effects of protein treatments.

Sorry? I meant 'over conditioned' as I said, it was not in reference to your opinion it was in reference to my own opinion. Coconut oil is a different ingredient to coconut milk and I did not make any reference to it in my post.

meteor
July 18th, 2013, 10:59 AM
Your products are awesome, but if you've been using the same ones for a long time, I suspect they built up. Change them for a couple washes and see how your hair responds.

Frankly, many people who use your shampoo (Shea Moisture Retention), don't use anything else after, not even conditioner. You might benefit from going lighter on those conditioners & leave-ins and see if your hair likes it.

I had a similar problem with my hair when I was overloading it with olive and avocado oils during my pre-wash treatments. It went away after a couple SLS/clarifying washes.

jacqueline101
July 18th, 2013, 11:05 AM
I'd clarify and try it again if it happens again I'd say something in the shampoo is doing it.

heathen
July 18th, 2013, 05:07 PM
Rubbery in what sense? Stretchy? Stick-to-itself-ness?

It would help to know a bit more hair history, too. Have you done chemical treatments (relaxers/perms, bleach, etc?)?

The All-Soft looks like it's decently conditioning (cat. surfactants and some fatty alcohols), but it's got isopropyl alcohol which IMO has no business being in any conditioner. The rest are more oil and humectant-based. I see silk protein in on of your products; it's not a problem for most people, but my hair hates it and turns into velcro with a few exposures to it.


When it was wet it felt stretchy AND sticking to itself. It felt like the way wearing rubber gloves feels when you touch something. Now that my hair is 100% dry it feels normal as far as I can tell. The ends are a bit velcro-y, but my ends are always kinda velcro-y so, I'm trying to figure out why. I have heard silk protein does not act in the same was as hydrolyzed protein, and that it is more for smoothing the cuticle?

My hair is virgin hair aside from a two-step hennindigo process I did for the first time about one and a half years ago, and a touch up again around this time last year. Aside from that I have used heat a couple times in the past two years, but haven't done anything to it at all for at least 6 months now. My hair has been super dry since doing henna/indigo, though. It really changed the texture of the hair, making it courser and less wavy.

Seems like a few people are advocating protein, why would rubbery, velcro-y hair be symptomatic of needing protein?

luxepiggy
July 18th, 2013, 05:47 PM
Buildup, buildup, buildup. Especially using all of those products at once. I strongly recommend that you clarify, then either take steps to simplify your routine, or clarify on a regular basis thereafter!

I do not think you need protein. There is a decent amount of protein in your products already.

meteor
July 18th, 2013, 05:48 PM
Seems like a few people are advocating protein, why would rubbery, velcro-y hair be symptomatic of needing protein?
Because of moisture-protein balance. If your hair is overly moisturized, doing a proper protein treatment or two can balance out the situation.
Your hair does sound like it might be overmoisturized. What I do in such cases is just skipping conditioner or using a lighter conditioner for a while. It always fixed the problem.

lapushka
July 18th, 2013, 06:04 PM
Another vote to clarify. A regular, sulfate shampoo should do the trick. Try and minimize the use of product after that clarifying wash as well. Just shampoo, and condition.

Anje
July 18th, 2013, 06:18 PM
Overly stretchy hair is symptomatic for not enough protein. Maybe your hair naturally needs some applied, maybe it's just because it's somehow gotten overmoisturized.

Start with clarifying, though. It'll be harsh, but the stickiness very likely could be buildup, and you'll want that gone before you do any treatments. Next, you'll want to do a protein treatment using something with hydrolyzed protein. There are some good commercial ones on the market (Aphogee and Joico make notable ones, look for the term 'reconstructer' if you're shopping), alternatively there are a few recipes floating around that use low-sodium soy sauce, Bragg's liquid aminos, or gelatin (http://pedaheh.blogspot.com/2012/05/gelatin-protein-treatment.html) for homemade versions. Once you've rinsed out whatever protein treatment you used, you'll probably want to apply a decent moisturizing conditioner and let it sink in for a while, as your hair will almost certainly feel dry and tangly after a protein treatment.

Hopefully, that'll get you fixed right up.

chen bao jun
July 18th, 2013, 06:53 PM
Agree with this. It worked for me.

Overly stretchy hair is symptomatic for not enough protein. Maybe your hair naturally needs some applied, maybe it's just because it's somehow gotten overmoisturized.

Start with clarifying, though. It'll be harsh, but the stickiness very likely could be buildup, and you'll want that gone before you do any treatments. Next, you'll want to do a protein treatment using something with hydrolyzed protein. There are some good commercial ones on the market (Aphogee and Joico make notable ones, look for the term 'reconstructer' if you're shopping), alternatively there are a few recipes floating around that use low-sodium soy sauce, Bragg's liquid aminos, or gelatin (http://pedaheh.blogspot.com/2012/05/gelatin-protein-treatment.html) for homemade versions. Once you've rinsed out whatever protein treatment you used, you'll probably want to apply a decent moisturizing conditioner and let it sink in for a while, as your hair will almost certainly feel dry and tangly after a protein treatment.

Hopefully, that'll get you fixed right up.

heathen
July 19th, 2013, 11:39 PM
Thanks for the advice everyone!

I clarified today and it seemed to do the trick, my hair is feeling better. I am going to go ahead and do the PT as per Anje's suggestions.

I suppose there is tendency to to think, "Oh, my hair is dry I need to slather layers of good stuff on it to make it not dry" But, I've learned from my experiment that is not that case.

Think I'm gonna adopt a more minimalist approach with my hair and see how it does for a while.

Does anyone know, exactly, what happens to hair this "over-conditioned"? I mean to say, how goes trying to moisturize (excessively) it damage it?

Firefox7275
July 20th, 2013, 06:05 AM
Thanks for the advice everyone!

I clarified today and it seemed to do the trick, my hair is feeling better. I am going to go ahead and do the PT as per Anje's suggestions.

I suppose there is tendency to to think, "Oh, my hair is dry I need to slather layers of good stuff on it to make it not dry" But, I've learned from my experiment that is not that case.

Think I'm gonna adopt a more minimalist approach with my hair and see how it does for a while.

Does anyone know, exactly, what happens to hair this "over-conditioned"? I mean to say, how goes trying to moisturize (excessively) it damage it?

You can use a lot of leave in conditioners and even stylers if you choose ones with ingredients that wash away easily with water only/ conditioner only washing, i.e don't build up. Even when we shampoo we often focus on the sebum at the roots and not on cleansing the ends where we apply most conditioner. Some shampoos plus some conditioners can can 'scum' that builds up: solution is to rinse hair really well before starting the cleansing process.

I use piles of leave in conditioner and sometimes piles of styler yet very rarely shampoo (only when I accidentally use a silicone or wax), I don't get build up despite having damaged porous hair. Because my skin and hair dislike every shampoo I have tried so far I am super picky about my products and their ingredients - no silicones, few polyquats, few butters (only in one deep conditioner and never shea), no waxes (including cetyl esters which I have had a nightmare with), no mineral oil nor petrolatum.

That still leaves loads of options which remove easily with water and/ or conditioner and massage: cationic surfactants, fatty alcohols, most natural oils, hydrolysed protein, water soluble commercial gels or natural jellys (flaxseed/ xanthan gum), ceramides, panthenol, humectants like honey or aloe vera.

Excessive water weakens the protein bonds in the hair, encourages the protein molecules to unravel, raises the cuticle leaving it vulnerable to chipping off and hairs not sliding nicely on one another (friction) so tangling more easily. Often porous or damaged hair (long hair is older so the cuticle has been damaged by normal 'weathering') needs less moisture not more to feel soft, silky and not 'dry', it can need you to work on increasing elasticity, reducing porosity and patch repairing surface damage to reduce friction/ increase 'slip'.

Don't confuse conditioning with moisturising, there is a good deal of overlap in the true meanings but they are not one and the same.