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aster66
June 25th, 2013, 05:46 AM
I hope someone can help me figure out whats going on with my hair. For a couple of months now my hair is extremely tangly, it keeps clinging to itself, it snaps and often i find the ends of my hair bent at odd angles. I was wondering if this could be due to protein buildup. I've been using the garnier triple nutrition conditioner for a really long time and switched to their new version (the yellow one) when they reformulated it. I know this one has a little bit of sillicone in it but i dont know if it also has protein in it.

If it is indeed protein buildup how do i get rid of it? Atm I use an sls/sles free shampoo by dr. organic, would that be enough to get rid of it or should i use something harsher?

red-again
June 25th, 2013, 07:04 AM
I may be wrong but I don't think you can really get rid of protein but what you can do to " balance" your hair is moisturise. Try a moisturising conditioner without protein or use olive oil etc. you could try clarifying with a specific clarifying shampoo too though to see if that helped with the protein build up.

But yes, what you are describing sounds very much like a protein excess.

red-again
June 25th, 2013, 07:08 AM
Could you post the ingredients for the new formula please? Can only seem to find the old one online, which is protein free.

The-Young-Maid
June 25th, 2013, 07:14 AM
It sounds like too much protein to me. My hair is also protein sensitive and it would get extremely tangled/dry. I don't think any of the ingredients of the conditioner are causing it though -
*oops I think these are the old ingredients. Can someone post the new version?*

Water (Aqua), Cetearyl Alcohol, Elaeis Guineenis (Palm) Oil (Palm Oil), Behentrimonium Chloride, Pyrus Malus Extract (Apply Fruit Extract), Glycerin, Parfum (Fragrance), Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Niacinamide, Pyridoxine HCI, Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter), Citric Acid, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil (Olive Fruit Oil), Saccharum Officinarum (Sugar Cane) Extract (Sugar Cane Extract), Benzyl Alcohol, Chlorhexidine Dihydrochloride, Persea Gratissima Oil (Avocado Oil), Ribes Nigrum (Black Currant) Oil (Black Currant Seed Oil), Linalool, Citrus Medica Limonum (Lemon) Fruit Extract (Lemon Peel Extract), FD&C Yellow 5 Aluminum Lake (Yellow 5), FD&C Yellow 6 Aluminum Lake (Yellow 6)

Have you been oiling your hair? Have you been using any other deep treatments? Any of those might also cause build up. You should clarify and then moisturize and avoid any other protein rich products. I recommend you avoid coconut oil if you have been using it!

aster66
June 25th, 2013, 08:01 AM
Thanks for the replies ladies! Yes I have been using coconut oil after almost every wash to moisturize my ends (only about a fingernail). That could also be the culprit I guess.

Here are the ingredients of the new formula:

Water (Aqua), Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Ceteyl Esters, Niacinamide, Saccharum Officinarum Extract (Sugar Cane Extract), Olea Europaea Oil (Olive Fruit Oil), Triceth-6, Chlorhexidine Digluconate, Limolene, Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract, Linalool, Benzyl Salicylate, Benzyl Alcohol, Amodimethicone, Isopropyl Alcohol, Pyrus Malus Extract (Apply Fruit Extract), Pyridoxine HCI, Persea Gratissima Oil (Avocado Oil), Butyrospermum Parkii (Shea Butter), Citric Acid, Butylphenyl Methylpropional, Cetrimonium Chloride, Citrus Medica Limonum Fruit Extract (Lemon Peel Extract), Hexyl Cinnamal, Parfum

Maybe it's time for a good clarify...

Anje
June 25th, 2013, 08:40 AM
I don't see any obvious proteins in there, but I do see some amides and I kinda wonder what it's doing with chlorhexidine quite so high on the list. You do have a lot of plant extracts in there, which could potentially contribute protein -- extracts are something of a black box ingredient. That said, your symptoms sound very much like protein buildup to me. Do check out your other products too -- shampoo is an unlikely culprit but possible, leave-ins often are protein-loaded.

What I've done when I have too much protein: start by clarifying. (If you have just plain old buildup, this'll fix it!) Mix up a good heavy-duty moisture treatment with something you know is protein-free. For me, that's an SMT using a Suave conditioner like the Aloe and Waterlily (avoid the coconut and ocean ones due to protein). Let it soak for 30+ minutes, rinse out. Hopefully your hair will be smoother and less likely to stick to itself. If it's still giving you trouble, repeat the moisture treatment every day or two. That took care of my hair when it was like yours within a week or two.

ravenreed
June 25th, 2013, 10:40 AM
My hair has issues with coconut oil. I can use it once every month or so, but more often leads to exactly what you describe. I would clarify with an SLS shampoo a time or two, and moisturize the heck out of it. However, in the past when I got protein overload, I usually had to trim about an inch off the ends before my hair got back to normal.

Firefox7275
June 25th, 2013, 10:57 AM
I used the old Triple Nutrition successfully for a couple of years. I had build up from using the new formula as a leave in for a couple of weeks, my hair was lank and fluffy and totally unmanageable, I had to clarify out with a cocoamiopropyl betaine shampoo. It's not inconceivable it would have ended up tangly and fragile if I'd continued.

IMO it's nothing to do with protein which is not present in TN anyway, I can use hydrolysed protein in fairly decent doses without an issue even vaguely resembling the effects I had from the new Triple Nutrition. My guess would be the cetyl esters (a synthetic wax I believe) and/ or silicones (tho amodimethicone is not supposed to build up). Virtually everything else in the formula I use in other conditioners - niacinamide is just a vitamin.

"Cetyl esters have an HLB of 10 - whereas cetyl alcohol has an HLB of 15.5 - and they can take up to 2 days to full thicken your lotion or cream. They're often called a replacement for spermacetti or "synthetic spermacetti", but this is kinda irrelevant to us because spermacetti hasn't been used in years, especially by homecrafters! It has a faint odour and bland taste, and is incredibly resistant to rancidity with a shelf life of almost 5 years. Like all the esters we've met so far, they're insoluble in water but soluble in oils. Interestingly enough, cetyl esters are soluble in boiling alcohol, so they might be a suitable ingredient in alcohol based deodorants. They have a melting point of 43˚C to 47˚C."
http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.co.uk/2010/08/esters-cetyl-esters.html

I conditioner-only wash in cool water BTW.

Anje
June 25th, 2013, 11:08 AM
Virtually everything else in the formula I use in other conditioners - niacinamide is just a vitamin.
It is. However, I recall a number of people here (particularly curlies) having trouble with panthenol buildup.

cranberrymoonz
June 25th, 2013, 11:20 AM
I have build-up problems with their new formula too, though I didn't realise it until now. I'm going to stop using it, and i'll do a few clarifying washes in the near future.

Firefox7275
June 25th, 2013, 11:22 AM
It is. However, I recall a number of people here (particularly curlies) having trouble with panthenol buildup.

Interesting, I've not noticed that on the curlies forums must watch out for it. Another one I can layer on but yes it does adhere that is why I actively look for it (colour treated porous hair). Not sure panthenol is classed as a vitamin tho, I *think* B5 acts differently in it's provitamin/ derivative form?

Anje
June 25th, 2013, 11:24 AM
Honestly, I think they must have originally thought all B vitamins were the same, then kept discovering that they were all different and had rather unrelated structures and functions....

Flaxen can probably give you a detailed history of the panthenol debacle. I'm pretty sure she was afflicted by it.

Firefox7275
June 25th, 2013, 11:32 AM
Honestly, I think they must have originally thought all B vitamins were the same, then kept discovering that they were all different and had rather unrelated structures and functions....

Flaxen can probably give you a detailed history of the panthenol debacle. I'm pretty sure she was afflicted by it.

The B vitamins straight up are water soluble, derivatives are more of a diverse group I think, there are even D- and L- forms of panthenol it's confuzzling!! It's useful to know that about build up, I will certainly keep my eyes peeled.

aster66
June 25th, 2013, 12:06 PM
Thanks for all the helpful replies! I'm definitely going to clarify to see if that helps. Also switching conditioners seems like a good idea. Any Dutch ladies here that can recommend a conditioner for dry hair (preferably without cones and protein) that's available in the Netherlands?

alexis917
June 25th, 2013, 12:38 PM
It sounds like a protein problem, for sure.

Try doing a test before you try any treatments.

Take a strand of hair from your head and wet it.
Then, gently pull the ends slowly away from eachother.
If your hair stretches about 15-20 percent or so, then bounces back a bit, your hair is healthy! Yay!
If your hair stretches and stretches for a long time, feels "gummy", and won't bounce back, you have too much moisture and need protein.
If your hair feels brittle, won't stretch much, and breaks off quickly, you need more moisture and have too much protein.

Personally, my hair always disliked Garnier, I don't know why!

jacqueline101
June 25th, 2013, 01:04 PM
I would clarify then try a moisture rich product. You could add baby oil to your hair I did that when I had protein issues.

aster66
June 25th, 2013, 01:29 PM
I would clarify then try a moisture rich product. You could add baby oil to your hair I did that when I had protein issues.

Thanks for the tip Jacqueline! I was already trying to come up with something to use to moisturize my hair with instead of the coconut oil. I've always wanted to try baby oil but completely forgot about it.

bradlea
June 25th, 2013, 01:36 PM
Seconding both the SMT and the baby oil! I've been dealing with too much protein too, and both of those things have helped a LOT.