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chen bao jun
March 16th, 2013, 02:49 PM
Was talking yesterday to a group of friends. It really struck me strongly how CONVINCED women are that their hair can't grow, even with all kinds of evidence to the contrary, because of the culture here in the US surrounding hair care. Three of the women were complaining about how their hair has 'stopped growing'. Then they admit to going to hairdressers for 'trims' every 6-8 weeks (one case) and about every 2 months (second case). They look at me like I have three heads when I say, maybe your hairdresser is cutting your growth off?

These women don't even go the hairdresser for haircuts, per se. They go for coloring and styling and the hairdresser just automatically trims to 'keep their ends healthy', it's just part of the deal.

There was a girl there who moved from Turkey to get married about 4 years ago. (She's the daughter-in-law of one of the American women). I remember when this young woman first arrived. She had gorgeous, thick, midnight black hair to her tailbone, with wurls. Now she has average looking, over-straightened, brownish reddish, dull, heavily layered hair that is sort of kind of bra strap with thin ends. She sees no connection between the current condition of her hair and what she is doing to it. In one breath she says, 'We don't go to the hairdresser much in Turkey because we don't have money, we trim ourselves maybe once a year', and in the next breath she says she doesn't understand why her hair doesn't grow here and why the wurls are gone. She says every time she goes the hairdresser, they tell her they have to cut off 4-6 inches because of the poor condition of the ends, and she doesn't know why her ends are such a mess (that straightening, blow-frying and coloring might be affecting them seems not to have crossed her mind)...

They all think their hair looks terrible (which, truthfully, it mostly does) and try to solve this by doing something ELSE invasive--different coloring, a new hairstyle which has to be blow dried to look good...

I wonder how we got to this state.

Kwantslonghair
March 16th, 2013, 03:15 PM
Tv models, celebrities. Everyone wants "that" hair. Back in the 70's. everyone wanted Farrah hair. All the girls at school curled, permed, hairsprayed, teased trying to make their hair conform. I for one knew my hair could never look like that, not the right texture etc. it's the same today. Sadly a lot of hairdressers don't tell you that your hair is not right for the style. People seem to find it hard to get their minds to believe you don't have to trim all the time

PraiseCheeses
March 16th, 2013, 03:27 PM
I blame marketing, consumerism, and our culture's quick fix mentality. We want a quick fix, and the advertisers tell us we can have it. We don't want to address the root of the problem; hair fried from a straightener will take YEARS to grow out, but if we just get this serum and this new high-tech straightener coated with unicorn horn, our hair won't be frizzy and we can repair the damage. Slow growth? Get extensions or buy this shampoo with the nourishing complex that makes your hair grow an inch a week!

Also, in many places, having colored and styled hair is a status symbol and part of being "professional" and put together. But that's a whole different rant. :)

ETA: It's a real shame about the young woman from Turkey. Such potential for beauty, and it sounds like she misses it! Hopefully someone gently enlightens her if she wants her hair back.

silverthread
March 16th, 2013, 03:50 PM
Chen bao jun, Kwantslonghair and PraiseCheeses, what you all have said is so true. I wish I had realized long before I did that all the stuff I was doing to make my hair beautiful was doing just the opposite, and making the product manufacturers richer to boot. I'm learning (slowly) to be happy with my silvery, mismatched hair. Though there are days when I wish it looked different, at least I don't fall for the marketing nonsense anymore.

Kwantslonghair
March 16th, 2013, 03:56 PM
I occasionally try a new product but it usually gets stuck in the back of the bath cabinet and I am raiding the kitchen cabs for the good ole tried n trues

dulce
March 16th, 2013, 03:58 PM
I couldn't agree more with every one of these above statements ,they are so on the mark.It's a sad state that all that misguided money spent in salons actually ends up with such poor hair[that needs more and more salon treatments and potions] and people can't figure out the connection.We women are being sold a bill of goods and salons are making huge profits.Four years ago I had salon dyed fried shorter ,thinning,brittle,hair.I grew it long ,stopped dyeing and all damaging practises, now cut my own hair and never go to a salon.At 61,my hair has thickened up and is much healthier.

kidari
March 16th, 2013, 04:14 PM
When I went to the salon religiously I was spending so much time, money, and effort to get it to look "nice." I notice that they do a lot of things to get you to depend on them more and spend more money. Suggesting coloring or highlights or cutting it in a complicated layered style that will quickly lose it's shape or going shorter and shorter so you have to come in once a month for a trim. Three years of growing out my hair and stopping almost all bad things (the only thing I still do is color my greys) my hair looks now with simple damp bunning what is it used to look like with 45+ minutes of back breaking effort with a blow dryer, styling tools, irons, products, and teasing. I really feel sorry for the women who succumb to coloring, frying with heat, cutting it shorter and not having the knowledge or patience to grow it out and then spending thousands on permanent extensions that can potentially permanently ruin their hair. I have known people who got extensions only to take them out a month or two later with hair in worse state, including bald spots.

ravenreed
March 16th, 2013, 04:20 PM
All these people have access to the same information you and I do. They are making a choice for themselves. It isn't my business, and I don't really care. When people get tired of the grind, they will do something different. Until then, it isn't my concern. If someone asks me what I do, then I take some time to explain.

Kwantslonghair
March 16th, 2013, 04:25 PM
I decided to go dye free. I was coloring to cover the greys. I am going to try cassia as soon as I can get my hands on some. I go to walmart or similar store, walk down the haircare isle and experience product overload. I use a deep conditioner once a month or so, switch between cone and no cone shampoo, use acv, bs and a few oils. There is just too much product out there.

lapushka
March 16th, 2013, 05:00 PM
I don't think it's just American hair care, count European hair care in too. Lots of women go to salons here. It kind of goes without saying that your hair won't grow if you continually have your hairdresser cut off the growth. Don't quite get how with some people, this doesn't sink in. Almost funny!

Suze2012
March 16th, 2013, 05:02 PM
The diet and fitness industry are just the same if you don't understand the theory behind it.

All three industries are geared toward continued sales...they don't actually want you to lose weight and keep it off, nor find a brilliant hair solution that works for you.

You do have to find your own ways.....and mostly use common sense with all three industries....I wish I had thought of their ideas, I'd have made a fortune!

LadyCelestina
March 16th, 2013, 05:06 PM
All these people have access to the same information you and I do. They are making a choice for themselves. It isn't my business, and I don't really care. When people get tired of the grind, they will do something different. Until then, it isn't my concern. If someone asks me what I do, then I take some time to explain.

I agree with this...It's their hair and their worries and their money.

jacqueline101
March 16th, 2013, 05:22 PM
I think the whole trimming thing is something hair dressers and media got started. It's like the shampoo and repeat.

Natalia
March 16th, 2013, 05:28 PM
This reminds me of this repetative conversation i have...
Person: Wow how do you get your hair so shiny?!?!
Me: I put oil in it.
Person: What oil, isnt that gross?
Me: Nope, just a little now and the to keepit moisturized.
Person: no way :rolleyes:

Of coarse i leave out the i rarely use shampoo, i keep it up, i only use a comb, dont heat style, an i let it dry naturally and yet they sill dont beleve me and think im sneaking off to some magic salon or using some magic product. Oh well they asked i told they didnt believe me, their loss.

ravenreed
March 16th, 2013, 05:32 PM
I trim every four to six weeks. It keeps my ends looking nice and reduces tangles. My hair is still getting longer.


I think the whole trimming thing is something hair dressers and media got started. It's like the shampoo and repeat.

chen bao jun
March 16th, 2013, 05:49 PM
I guess I notice it not because it is 'bothering' me but because it was me for so many years and I wonder how I was so clueless...
I'm not even that keyed into the culture. I hardly ever watch t.v., don't know the popular music and stars and kind of live out in the country, being quiet. But I still religiously lathered, rinsed, repeated and went to the hairdresser every six months, even though I hated it (no offense to the good hairdressers on this board).
I didn't even KNOW my hair was fried. I really didn't. I thought it was quite healthy and was proud of it. I thought the dry, hard texture was natural to me. Even though I had bra strap length hair as a young woman (and assumed that that was my 'terminal') so long as it hit my shoulders and remained thick, I didn't notice that the ends were crumbling off--I thought it was normal for short pieces of hair to fly all around the bathroom every time you combed.
I will tell my friend from Turkey about this group--if she's interested, she's interested.
I guess I wish someone had told ME. My dad did try, he was constantly saying, you don't need to do all that, but I thought he was my DAD and that as a man he didn't understand what my hair would look like without the hairdresser. My husband also tried, come to think of it. It was mostly the other women in my life who would say what a mess my hair was every time I went to the hairdresser a little late. Is this another thing that women do to women (like the hyper-thinness thing and the rule of tiny dress sizes?) Hmmm...
Not blaming anybody. Just thinking aloud here.

Kwantslonghair
March 16th, 2013, 05:57 PM
I have an old catalog I got at an auction. Even way back in the day they had all these miracle elixirs and concoctions claiming to grow hair, stop female hysteria etc

kidari
March 16th, 2013, 07:08 PM
The diet and fitness industry are just the same if you don't understand the theory behind it.

All three industries are geared toward continued sales...they don't actually want you to lose weight and keep it off, nor find a brilliant hair solution that works for you.

You do have to find your own ways.....and mostly use common sense with all three industries....I wish I had thought of their ideas, I'd have made a fortune!

I completely agree. It's very manipulative and preys on people to make tons of money. But it is business and businesses need to make money. Also, it's true that it is up to yourself to figure things out and be patient as well as practice some common sense. Personally, I always thought everyone had brittle frizzy hair that needed to be trimmed and dyed every 4-6 weeks and blow dried after every wash with tons of product used to make it look presentable. It wasn't until I came across some recent friends who are foreigners (I'm American) who had THE most AMAZING heads of hair: super silky, super thick, so glossy, and hip length that I had a light bulb moment. I realized they just washed, air dried, and kept it moisturized and that was it. I couldn't believe that what I was after was so incredibly simple and I never realized it but ironically wasted so much time, effort, and money in a state of ignorance and stupidity.

chen bao jun
March 16th, 2013, 08:17 PM
I have an old catalog I got at an auction. Even way back in the day they had all these miracle elixirs and concoctions claiming to grow hair, stop female hysteria etc
Oh, yes, way back in the day they had fake hair, too and also used other people's hair. Remember Jo selling her hair in Little Women? That went to make a wig for somebody with money.

lmfbs
March 16th, 2013, 10:16 PM
Same thing here in NZ - people ask constantly how my hair is so long and nice and shiny. When I say I don't use shampoo, don't trim regularly, use oils and don't brush it, they'll tell me how bad that is and how I must have heaps of split ends because you need to trim every 8 weeks, and oil makes you hair oily....They're happy to tell me how much nicer my hair is now than it was 18 months ago, but refuse to accept how I made it nice.

I figure I don't care - if they want to fry their hair within an inch of its life, that's their choice.

leslissocool
March 16th, 2013, 11:17 PM
The diet and fitness industry are just the same if you don't understand the theory behind it.

All three industries are geared toward continued sales...they don't actually want you to lose weight and keep it off, nor find a brilliant hair solution that works for you.

You do have to find your own ways.....and mostly use common sense with all three industries....I wish I had thought of their ideas, I'd have made a fortune!


Oh yes, absolutely. It prays on people who have a natural tendency to lose weight slowly. I know I do.

And let alone the vitamin industry. If I didn't have issues and had to come back for specific stuff because I am anemic and I'd rather use organic natural products. I wouldn't go. I meet body builders there (with amazing bodies) and end up walking with 80 bucks worth of products. I know the amino acids I take are expensive... But did I really need the joint support, and the melatonin and all that? Ok... I have trouble sleeping and I have issues sleeping without it, but you get my point and the BCAAs have help my iron deficiency immensely, but you get the point. Health is also where you really have to watch out for scams and viscous cycles.

ravenreed
March 17th, 2013, 12:00 AM
I do consider the supplement market over the top at the moment, but at the same time, I am treating several health problems successfully with supplements. I have joint problems and cannot take NSAIDS without getting ill. So instead, I am using Turmeric, Bromelain, Nettle, and MSM. I did research first, and decided that those four were the most likely to help me, and they have.


Oh yes, absolutely. It prays on people who have a natural tendency to lose weight slowly. I know I do.

And let alone the vitamin industry. If I didn't have issues and had to come back for specific stuff because I am anemic and I'd rather use organic natural products. I wouldn't go. I meet body builders there (with amazing bodies) and end up walking with 80 bucks worth of products. I know the amino acids I take are expensive... But did I really need the joint support, and the melatonin and all that? Ok... I have trouble sleeping and I have issues sleeping without it, but you get my point and the BCAAs have help my iron deficiency immensely, but you get the point. Health is also where you really have to watch out for scams and viscous cycles.

leslissocool
March 17th, 2013, 12:35 AM
I do consider the supplement market over the top at the moment, but at the same time, I am treating several health problems successfully with supplements. I have joint problems and cannot take NSAIDS without getting ill. So instead, I am using Turmeric, Bromelain, Nettle, and MSM. I did research first, and decided that those four were the most likely to help me, and they have.

I'm taking some stuff that are working really well. I have issues with anemia and not absorbing things through food, my hair fell out at one point and wouldn't grow and it got even worse when I was pregnant. It's been 3 years and it's worked better than anything. But it's expensive! At least for good quality stuff. BCAAs are like 40 bucks for a 3 month supply.

melusine963
March 17th, 2013, 12:57 AM
There was a girl there who moved from Turkey to get married about 4 years ago. (She's the daughter-in-law of one of the American women). I remember when this young woman first arrived. She had gorgeous, thick, midnight black hair to her tailbone, with wurls. Now she has average looking, over-straightened, brownish reddish, dull, heavily layered hair that is sort of kind of bra strap with thin ends. She sees no connection between the current condition of her hair and what she is doing to it. In one breath she says, 'We don't go to the hairdresser much in Turkey because we don't have money, we trim ourselves maybe once a year', and in the next breath she says she doesn't understand why her hair doesn't grow here and why the wurls are gone. She says every time she goes the hairdresser, they tell her they have to cut off 4-6 inches because of the poor condition of the ends, and she doesn't know why her ends are such a mess (that straightening, blow-frying and coloring might be affecting them seems not to have crossed her mind)...

Come to think of it, the only hairdresser I ever went to who seemed to respect long hair, and who didn't try to cut off more than I wanted, was a young Turkish man. Sadly I've moved away now, but at least I've discovered the LHC and Feye's self-trim method.

MaryMarx
March 17th, 2013, 02:24 AM
- high-tech straightener coated with unicorn horn -
Haha, love it. :laugh:

Ishje
March 17th, 2013, 02:44 AM
I also think it is a European thing as well.
what strikes me the most is that these people are so surprised when you tell them about the reasons why their hair does not grow/ is dry / has loads of split ends/ looks fried.
after all, it all quite simple right?

Naiadryade
March 17th, 2013, 03:06 AM
America is the Land of Consumerism. You must keep buying, consuming, buying again, paying for services that will make you need to pay for more services... This cycle is super ingrained in our culture, and permeates every aspect of life, hair included. Resilient self-sufficiency is the enemy of capitalism. The only way to keep this kind of economy strong is to keep the people weak, so they think they need Help. But it's false help, designed to require more help. And more Things. Strength lies in ourselves, our communities, and in Nature, not in goods and services--but the capitalist machine doesn't want you to know that!

I'm so grateful to be a part of this international forum focused on creating resilient, community-supported self-sufficiency of hair care. May we spread this mindset far and wide.

leslissocool
March 17th, 2013, 03:23 AM
I can honeslty say I spent less money on my hair in last 2 years in LHC than I did a month when I was in high school. I spent the most this year, I invested on a creaclip for me and my kids and a tangle teezer. The year before I spent 60 bucks on henna, the year after that about 40 bucks on silica that I still have BTW. My shampoo and conditioner use went from 20 bucks a bottle or more (and products, i was spending a total of 80 to 90 bucks on products every 6 months) to 3 bucks a bottle (trader joes) and 6 bucks of oil. I have yet to spend money on a hair cut for anyone in my home, the CreaClip will pretty much take minutes off the time I spend cutting my kid's hair (they wiggle a lot, it's easy to chop too much!).

Honestly I couldn't be happier. I also stopped using face wash and started to do honey and cinnamon and my skin loves it, and the quality of my hair is way better and it's longer than it's ever been.

furnival
March 17th, 2013, 04:36 AM
All these people have access to the same information you and I do. They are making a choice for themselves.
A lot of people think they're making a choice, but are in fact unquestioningly accepting the sheer bullish!t spouted by the cosmetics companies. It's forgivable to be so woefully ill-informed when these companies seem exempt from the normal rules of advertising. Think about it- harmful box dyes are marketed as 'conditioning' and 'gentle', harsh shampoos are labelled 'for everyday use', any number of products claim to 'heal' damage and split ends and none of these claims are remotely true. It is false advertising.

Pre-LHC, I was deeply puzzled to find I had destroyed my hair with a box dye that claimed to be gentle and conditioning. There were no warnings about what it could actually do to your hair. Granted, I had done no research except for reading the accompanying leaflet, but that ought to have contained all the necessary information.

Hair seems to be regarded as expendable by the beauty industry- they sell us all sorts of damaging products because they know that most of the population don't understand where the damage is coming from and will turn to more and more expensive products to try to fix the damage. Imagine if they applied this marketing technique to face creams etc- used regularly, a cream would destroy your skin so you'd buy other creams to try to sort it out. There would be uproar.

I would love to start a campaign to force advertisers to label potentially damaging products.

I know there are many other factors involved in the wholesale destruction of Western hair but this one I find particularly galling. :uhh:

humble_knight
March 17th, 2013, 04:47 AM
I agree with furnival that hair is seen as expendable. What is the worst that happen? Oh, yes, buy some hair extensions made from real human hair. Western hair is being destroyed, but flip the coin and look at how hair is seen by the rest of the world. Western beauty is still perceived as the ideal, so you will find women in many eastern countries who try to emulate those hairstyles, hair colours and use of the same hair products. My cousin's wife in Dhaka chopped her hair into a bob because she thought it was trendy and would make her look more western.

At least in America you have specialised long-hair salons i.e George Michael salons.

Nymph
March 17th, 2013, 04:48 AM
It's also really hard to find a hairdresser who's willing to learn from you, as a long haired person, how hair actually does work and should be worked with. Luckily I've got one like that.

I remember back in the days where I used to go for the brands with heavy silicone and then wonder why I had to wash my hair daily.
Also, lately I realized that the openings in a certain brand of shampoo I use have been widened, so with the same amount of strength you get more product out. I suppose it's meant for you to go through it faster and then buy more of it.

SleepyTangles
March 17th, 2013, 05:44 AM
I can relate. I'm not even explaining anymore when someone comments on how nice/shiny is my hair... the look in their faces is like "Meh, this is plain stupid/weird/eww", so I just smile and thank them for the compliments.

I'm totally ok with different perspectives in haircare: if someone is more focused on achieving a certain look/colour/texture and doesn't care much for lenght or damage,its great.
But yes, sometimes I'm frustrated that no one can't tell anymore how much damaging are tools like flat-irons and curlers, hair dyes and all the stuff . And so that no one is more able to recognize the reasons behind get why their hair can't go past a certain lenght.
It's not my business, but I'd like to make a realistic conversation about hair, not just stopping on "Oh, I'd like my hair long so much, but no I could never survive without my flat iron... my hair is crap without!"

Zindell
March 17th, 2013, 05:57 AM
because of the culture here in the US surrounding hair care. Three of the women were complaining about how their hair has 'stopped growing'. Then they admit to going to hairdressers for 'trims' every 6-8 weeks (one case) and about every 2 months (second case). They look at me like I have three heads when I say, maybe your hairdresser is cutting your growth off?

These women don't even go the hairdresser for haircuts, per se. They go for coloring and styling and the hairdresser just automatically trims to 'keep their ends healthy', it's just part of the deal.

Same here in Sweden. "Every" woman is either bleaching or dying their hair, and goes in for trims every 6-8 weeks, because that's what media (commercials?) tell them to do. Also, using a flat iron and lots of products also is very common.

My hair is now somewhere between BSL and MBL and I start to get weird looks and the odd commend that "Oh, I would never have the patience to grow my hair out for years and years".

I don't even have the guts to tell them I don't actually go to hairdressers at all anymore. I trim my own hair. I just know it will not be recieved in a good way. So if anyone asks about my hairdresser or how often I trim it I answer very vaguely... "It differs..."

(If I told them I use Feye's selftrimming method I would become an outcast for sure :p)

Suze2012
March 17th, 2013, 07:12 AM
As a few have said 'it's their money and their hair'

I have attempted to pass on knowledge that I've now gained to a few people desperate for things to fight frizz etc but alongside that I also attempt to give advice on how I lost weight (10 years ago now almost) and the main reason I did lose weight was switching from low calorie food to normal versions (I was terrified of doing this but it worked). I lost three stone and haven't ever put it back on.

No one I know has yet tried how I lost weight, nor have they tried anything different with their hair.

It makes e laugh really as I get your hair smells so shampooey and lovely and looks great- I take it you've given up on conditioner washing' comments and I say, nope..that's the conditioner you can smell.

I get freakish looks when I go out with wet hair and have done for years as I gave up blowdrying and heat ears ago.
I get all the 'ewww' comments if I state what I do with it.
I keep getting people ask me where I've had it permed....lol!

I like being a freak..I like being quirky with how I treat my hair.
I am happy to pass on the info I now have to anyone in the hope they might try it - but they never do....that's their choice.

I'm almost a year now with co washing and no cones and using 'odd' things on my hair and I owe that to our horrendous springtime in the UK last year (wind and rain for three months on already frizzy hair), buying a pile of products for about 50 and then from keying in 'ways to stop frizz' on the net that same day.
I found a fantastic you tube video on conditioner washing and 'conditioner washing' in a google search led me here.
I spent a week reading about 400 pages of the Co washing thread.
Next weekend I took those expensive products back and got a refund.

I then went and spent 88p of that 50 on a bottle of conditioner with no cones.

If it hadn't been for this place I wouldn't love my hair as much as I do now and I would have spent an absolute fortune this past year on things that would never ever work for any length of time.


I was open to trying something which I didn't think would work for me (for the second time in my life - the first was the weight loss).
We all are open here to trying new things.

It says a lot about not having a closed mind.

But mostly, thanks to you guys....cos I wouldn't have done this without you lot. ((hugs)) to you all. :)

Neneka
March 17th, 2013, 07:34 AM
It's ridiculous how every quality of hair seems to be wrong according to commercials and such. I am not American but like others have said it's in Europe and propably many other places too. No matter how your hair looks like, there is always a problem that needs to be fixed. And people just believe that. I believed that years ago. I just didn't know better, I wasn't interested enough to dig out information and I didn't have the access to internet all the time. Those things are propably preventing many people of finding out what really works.

I actually think that knowledge about more "natural" hair care is spreading slowly. More and more people seem to know about things like oiling and washing hair less but I am not sure if they actually do it.

Lilli
March 17th, 2013, 08:00 AM
I think it's part of a major piece of human psychology: people want something, but they don't ever do what it takes to make it happen, even when they ask and are offered the answer. This is such a central piece of human behavior, and I have no sure explanation. I do have guesses, though: they don't want to take responsibility for themselves, they don't know how to think and are more comfortable with received wisdom, etc.

I look at other people's hair but rarely get asked about my own, probably because my friends are all natural types, too. What makes me cringe is seeing a group of young girls with very straight, long hair, and there's always the one girl who clearly has type 3 or 4 hair but attempts to straighten it to conform with the group. Her hair is crimpy, broken, dull and rough, and looks so sad to me, like it's crying for itself. I just want to pull her aside and teach her to love her curls, if only because straightening it looks like crap anyway.

Naiadryade
March 17th, 2013, 12:10 PM
A lot of people think they're making a choice, but are in fact unquestioningly accepting the sheer bullish!t spouted by the cosmetics companies. It's forgivable to be so woefully ill-informed when these companies seem exempt from the normal rules of advertising. Think about it- harmful box dyes are marketed as 'conditioning' and 'gentle', harsh shampoos are labelled 'for everyday use', any number of products claim to 'heal' damage and split ends and none of these claims are remotely true. It is false advertising.

Pre-LHC, I was deeply puzzled to find I had destroyed my hair with a box dye that claimed to be gentle and conditioning. There were no warnings about what it could actually do to your hair. Granted, I had done no research except for reading the accompanying leaflet, but that ought to have contained all the necessary information.

Hair seems to be regarded as expendable by the beauty industry- they sell us all sorts of damaging products because they know that most of the population don't understand where the damage is coming from and will turn to more and more expensive products to try to fix the damage. Imagine if they applied this marketing technique to face creams etc- used regularly, a cream would destroy your skin so you'd buy other creams to try to sort it out. There would be uproar.

I would love to start a campaign to force advertisers to label potentially damaging products.

I know there are many other factors involved in the wholesale destruction of Western hair but this one I find particularly galling. :uhh:

This, so much. Choice, when you only know about a few of your real choices, is not really choice. The responsibility here lies primarily with the product manufacturers and the advertisers. Maybe secondarily with hairdressers who push damaging procedures, but who regular people consider experts in haircare, and the schools that teach them those ways. Some of the responsibility is with the consumer, sure, for not finding the right information... but it's hard to know you're doing something wrong when you're following the only kind of advice you've been bombarded with your whole life.

Except that I would add--they're not actually breaking the "normal rules of advertising." There are very few phrases used in advertising and product labeling that are actually regulated in any way whatsoever. For the most part, you can label/advertise a product as whatever you want, so long as you don't claim it doesn't contain something it actually does, for example. Like, with food, the word "natural" means absolutely nothing legally. They can claim anything is natural. I'm pretty sure the same rule applies to words like "conditioning," "non-damaging" and "healing" when it comes to hair products... they can slap them on whatever package they feel like, and that's totally the norm and acceptable, even expected. Doesn't mean anything except "buy me!"


I agree with furnival that hair is seen as expendable. What is the worst that happen? Oh, yes, buy some hair extensions made from real human hair. Western hair is being destroyed, but flip the coin and look at how hair is seen by the rest of the world. Western beauty is still perceived as the ideal, so you will find women in many eastern countries who try to emulate those hairstyles, hair colours and use of the same hair products. My cousin's wife in Dhaka chopped her hair into a bob because she thought it was trendy and would make her look more western.

At least in America you have specialised long-hair salons i.e George Michael salons.

Thank you so much for reminding us of our privilege. You are so right... at least, if you really want to, you can find the right information and good hair care here in the westernized world. I would not know what I know now if I did not own a computer and have internet access in my home.

WilfredAllen
March 17th, 2013, 12:24 PM
Its one of those ironic things... the harder you try to have nice hair, the more you damage it (except us LHCers, of course :p)

ravenreed
March 17th, 2013, 12:26 PM
I have only ever seen one George Michael salon in my life. Ever. I couldn't have afforded it even if I wanted to.

Like everything else in American Life, we are being dominated by marketing and media. It is appalling to me that we are all being convinced to hate everything about ourselves so that we can be sold crap to make us feel better about our inadequate hair/figures/lives. However, like I said before, everyone has access to the same information, including that we are being programmed and force-fed b.s. Everyone has a choice to hop off the merry-go-round, turn off the commercials, stop reading the fashion magazines, and THINK. Yes, hair stylists sell product. That doesn't mean we have to buy them when we go in for a trim. It also takes time to sort out what our own hair needs, and most people don't want to. They want an easy fix. If I buy this, my hair will be PERFECT. I see so many friends IRL who have switched to natural lines and their hair looks just as bad as those that flat iron. Dry, frizzy, and full of split ends. I keep my mouth shut, and when they ask, I tell them what works for me, knowing full well that it might not work for them because their hair is different. YMMV. That means you have to sort it out for yourself. How scary.


I agree with furnival that hair is seen as expendable. What is the worst that happen? Oh, yes, buy some hair extensions made from real human hair. Western hair is being destroyed, but flip the coin and look at how hair is seen by the rest of the world. Western beauty is still perceived as the ideal, so you will find women in many eastern countries who try to emulate those hairstyles, hair colours and use of the same hair products. My cousin's wife in Dhaka chopped her hair into a bob because she thought it was trendy and would make her look more western.

At least in America you have specialised long-hair salons i.e George Michael salons.

spirals
March 17th, 2013, 12:57 PM
All these people have access to the same information you and I do.I didn't, not until 8 months ago. I, too, feel sorry for women because we are sold bills of goods in all areas of our lives. I'm very grateful this site and many others exist.

spirals
March 17th, 2013, 01:03 PM
I do consider the supplement market over the top at the moment, but at the same time, I am treating several health problems successfully with supplements. I have joint problems and cannot take NSAIDS without getting ill. So instead, I am using Turmeric, Bromelain, Nettle, and MSM. I did research first, and decided that those four were the most likely to help me, and they have.That is so awesome. I can sometimes avoid NSAIDs by using nerve confusion or spinal manipulation, but it doesn't always work. Need to research herbs some more.

Vanille_
March 17th, 2013, 01:08 PM
Like others said, we are told their is something wrong with our hair no matter what kind of hair we have. It's sad :(

ravenreed
March 17th, 2013, 01:46 PM
Yeah, they helped so much. Turmeric is an anti-inflammatory, so that was the first one I started with. I had such great results that I looked into a few more. I also use guided meditation to deal with the pain. For a while I could barely walk, so anything that helps is a pure gift. I will never be completely without pain, but just this week, I climbed a volcanic outcropping with a friend. I couldn't have done that a year ago! I also switched my shoes to those funny looking Vibrams. That also made a huge difference in my joint pain.


That is so awesome. I can sometimes avoid NSAIDs by using nerve confusion or spinal manipulation, but it doesn't always work. Need to research herbs some more.

Naiadryade
March 17th, 2013, 02:10 PM
I also switched my shoes to those funny looking Vibrams. That also made a huge difference in my joint pain.

This is getting way off topic now, so sorry for that... but Vibram Five Fingers shoes are so fantastic. They, or just being barefoot, completely change the way I walk, hold myself, relate to the world... I've started wearing them again on warm days recently (I can't quite do it in the winter), and I'm immediately put into a whole different mindset when my feet aren't constrained, and can flex and wiggle around and grab the ground! And when I hurt my foot badly a couple years ago, wearing these shoes really helped to speed my recovery.

Okay, I'm done derailing this thread now. To bring it back together, at least we do have alternatives to the more ubiquitous harmful products! ("barefoot" shoes versus thick- and flat-soled shoes, organic products and oils versus standard hair "care" products)

ravenreed
March 17th, 2013, 02:25 PM
You didn't have internet? Just because you hadn't found the info doesn't mean it wasn't there. When the student is ready, a teacher appears.



I didn't, not until 8 months ago. I, too, feel sorry for women because we are sold bills of goods in all areas of our lives. I'm very grateful this site and many others exist.

PraiseCheeses
March 17th, 2013, 03:31 PM
You didn't have internet? Just because you hadn't found the info doesn't mean it wasn't there. When the student is ready, a teacher appears.


I love this saying. :) It also reflects why it's not a good idea for us to go grabbing every dyed-and-fried woman on the street and evangelizing about LHC haircare. :p

That said, I think it can be really difficult to break out of the mainstream cycle of information when that's all you've ever known. Beauty magazines, TV, and observable trends in the street can shape one's perception of reality, and the fact that there is another path isn't even imaginable. If you don't know it exists, how can you look for it? Most people trying to fix their hair turn back to beauty magazines (which are now publishing articles about more natural care, but they still have a penchant for equating "argan oil" with "$50/oz coney serum with a titch of oil) or to the Web, where the most common results are - gasp! - more articles from beauty magazines. Yes, LHC turns up frequently in hair searches. I remember seeing it myself several years ago while looking for pictures of cuts for long hair. But I glossed it by, because there wasn't much obvious visual material and I didn't even register the existence of the forum, which was a quiet little link on the side. (Maybe I just wasn't ready for my teacher just yet. :) )

I'm extremely grateful for this forum and the members who share their experiences and help others. Hopefully our methods will continue to gain exposure so the people who want to break out of the cycle but don't know where to start have a visible and accessible alternative!

Anabell
March 17th, 2013, 04:12 PM
I trim every four to six weeks. It keeps my ends looking nice and reduces tangles. My hair is still getting longer.

You must have some incredible grow rate! How much do you trim in each time?

ravenreed
March 17th, 2013, 04:23 PM
Nope, I don't. I average about 6/8" a month. I just trim slightly less than that. They are usually microtrims. I do have one side that grows a little faster than the other, so I trim enough to keep everything even and the splits at bay. I notice if I go longer between trims, I end up trimming far more to get my ends back the way I like them.

ETA: That should read 5/8" or just over the average. However, lately I have been having a growth spurt so it may be closer to 6/8". Hardly astonishing by any means!


You must have some incredible grow rate! How much do you trim in each time?

AnnaB
March 17th, 2013, 05:19 PM
this is funny because this happens everywhere. Just today I was talking to the lodger, who said her hair stops growing when it reaches APL. She dyes her hair bright red every 3weeks!!!!! she doesnt have re-growth and colour isnt faded, why dye it!!! when i told her it was the chemical dye affecting the hair, she looked at me like I was mental!

People comment on my hair colour and how it changes colour in different light, but when I tell them its henna, they pull faces at me! I just don't get it.

Arden
March 17th, 2013, 05:42 PM
Hair dressers drive me nuts... I went last week becaus my daughter, who's 3 hacked a pice of my hair off. I told the girl I was growing it out and I just needed her to fix what my daughter did. when I pulled my hair out of the bun and let it come down she just raved about how beautiful it was. I almost got out the chair right then cause all I could think was well if it looks so good maybe I don't need it fixed.

Of course I didn't... I keep telling myself it had to be done because my daughter cut it.. but now I can't feel it swishing on my back and I miss that.

I have no intentions of seeing another hair dresser for a long long time.

scorpio17910
March 17th, 2013, 06:24 PM
I never really understood the American ideals of beauty (even though I am a very proud American) -- why spend so much money only to have to spend more on the upkeep? I'll admit, in high school I DID try washing and blow frying every morning, but that didn't really last. I've always been told I had really pretty hair, so I always figured I was doing something right. When people ask now, I tend to not give them the whole bit, if I can avoid it. I'll just tell them "stop cutting" or "try a SLS-free shampoo" -- I still get looked at weird, but not as much as when I tell them my whole routine. :p

Vanille_
March 17th, 2013, 06:29 PM
I won't lie. I almost fell for the eyelash extensions craze. Then my friend told me how much it costs to have done and how often you have to redo it.

kidari
March 17th, 2013, 06:36 PM
I won't lie. I almost fell for the eyelash extensions craze. Then my friend told me how much it costs to have done and how often you have to redo it.

I had it done and only got "refills" two more times and then removed them myself out of frustration. You lay down for 2+ hours while someone permanently glues lashes to your eyes one by one. You have to take longer to shower and wash your face so as to not disturb them. I have really oily skin and hair and it was a nightmare to keep my eyes relatively clean and the entire time I was so uncomfortable. The time I thought I was saving I actually gained being so careful when I showered or washed up. When they grow out they twist all different directions and you can feel where they were glues and they scratch you when you blink. Basically, it's worse than all the pitfalls of getting acrylic nails done.

I agree with everyone else that I don't really like to say what I do when I receive compliments because people think I have extensions or heat style and don't believe me. I'm also scared to tell them that I cut my own hair, because I'm scared if they try it themselves they might not like it and then resent me for it.

Alexblue
March 17th, 2013, 07:36 PM
I agree with Ravenreed and PraiseCheeses, you need to ready to make the change but also know that there is even another way to look after your hair - and yourself in general.

For me the final straw came when I did my first, and last, Brazilian blowout. It was sold as something that strengthens one's hair but instead my hair fell out in clumps! The damage was so visible I started to invest real time searching out proper hair care online. That's when I found LHC and realised there was a completely different way to approach hair care. It was the best realisation for my hair and also spread to how I approach cosmetics, cleaning products, etc.

battles
March 17th, 2013, 08:34 PM
You didn't have internet? Just because you hadn't found the info doesn't mean it wasn't there. When the student is ready, a teacher appears.

So true. When I was 15, a friend told me you weren't supposed to wash your hair every day. I told him that was gross and put it out of my head. :p Now I stretch washes.

Latte Lady
March 17th, 2013, 09:16 PM
We Americans, want what we want, when we want it. If we want long hair because it's in style, we really can't wait for it to grow as it'll be out of style by the time it does. So we get extensions.

We are also told that we are lazy and that we don't take care of ourselves it we don't style our hair. This means curly must be straight and straight must be curly.

I remember having a strange conversation with one of my Grandmothers, who was trying to convince me to cut my hair because it 'would be easier'. I must be a slave to my hair for it to be as long as it is! I informed her that all I did was clean it, comb it, put it up. "Long hair is so much easier for me! Doesn't take much time at all!" She instantly switched gears and told me that the only reason I had long hair was because I was too lazy to maintain a cut and style. I remember just staring at her. I went from being a slave to outright lazy in just a few moments!

HintOfMint
March 17th, 2013, 09:26 PM
As much as people say it's their choice, that's not what the beauty industry says. Maybe they're not holding a gun to people's head so that they buy their products but they definitely use every effective method to make people feel as if they need to have their products in order to look a certain way, looking a certain way is the most desirable way to look and women SHOULD look that way.

That's part of the reason it's such a damn shame when women end up destroying naturally pretty hair in order to chase a different look that maybe never suited them to begin with or maybe they wouldn't have wanted it if it weren't hammered into them. Did the girl with curly hair HAVE to have straight hair? Did the girl with black hair HAVE to have some golden highlights for "dimension?"

I understand that some people just want to have a look and playing with appearance is fun. I get it. But if that were the case with everyone or even most people, wouldn't there be far more varieties of looks? I feel like there's definitely a compulsion to these looks and their upkeep. Chances are, these women just wanted to look pretty. That's totally fair, heck, I want to look pretty too. But when it starts to get screwy is when they're told that they have to jump through X number of hoops and spend X number of dollars to achieve this specific look and THEN they'll be pretty.

ravenreed
March 17th, 2013, 09:34 PM
Hopefully people eventually figure out that the beauty industry is about selling products, nothing more. It is all part and parcel for living in a capitalist society. Everyone is trying to sell something and sometimes use unethical methods to do so, IMO. Like Photoshoping models to look better than they do.

I am so opposed to the whole commercialism thing that when my sons were very young, I actually turned off the TV for seven years to avoid commercials. I didn't want them exposed to the brain washing. (We did rent movies and started getting Netflix, but just nothing with commercials!)


As much as people say it's their choice, that's not what the beauty industry says. Maybe they're not holding a gun to people's head so that they buy their products but they definitely use every effective method to make people feel as if they need to have their products in order to look a certain way, looking a certain way is the most desirable way to look and women SHOULD look that way.

That's part of the reason it's such a damn shame when women end up destroying naturally pretty hair in order to chase a different look that maybe never suited them to begin with or maybe they wouldn't have wanted it if it weren't hammered into them. Did the girl with curly hair HAVE to have straight hair? Did the girl with black hair HAVE to have some golden highlights for "dimension?"

I understand that some people just want to have a look and playing with appearance is fun. I get it. But if that were the case with everyone or even most people, wouldn't there be far more varieties of looks? I feel like there's definitely a compulsion to these looks and their upkeep. Chances are, these women just wanted to look pretty. That's totally fair, heck, I want to look pretty too. But when it starts to get screwy is when they're told that they have to jump through X number of hoops and spend X number of dollars to achieve this specific look and THEN they'll be pretty.

Naiadryade
March 18th, 2013, 12:22 AM
I love this saying. :) It also reflects why it's not a good idea for us to go grabbing every dyed-and-fried woman on the street and evangelizing about LHC haircare. :p

That said, I think it can be really difficult to break out of the mainstream cycle of information when that's all you've ever known. Beauty magazines, TV, and observable trends in the street can shape one's perception of reality, and the fact that there is another path isn't even imaginable. If you don't know it exists, how can you look for it? Most people trying to fix their hair turn back to beauty magazines (which are now publishing articles about more natural care, but they still have a penchant for equating "argan oil" with "$50/oz coney serum with a titch of oil) or to the Web, where the most common results are - gasp! - more articles from beauty magazines. Yes, LHC turns up frequently in hair searches. I remember seeing it myself several years ago while looking for pictures of cuts for long hair. But I glossed it by, because there wasn't much obvious visual material and I didn't even register the existence of the forum, which was a quiet little link on the side. (Maybe I just wasn't ready for my teacher just yet. :) )

I'm extremely grateful for this forum and the members who share their experiences and help others. Hopefully our methods will continue to gain exposure so the people who want to break out of the cycle but don't know where to start have a visible and accessible alternative!

This is so beautifully put! :flower:



I am so opposed to the whole commercialism thing that when my sons were very young, I actually turned off the TV for seven years to avoid commercials. I didn't want them exposed to the brain washing. (We did rent movies and started getting Netflix, but just nothing with commercials!)

That's super awesome! I haven't lived with TV for most of my adult life (which is only the last 7 years), but I think I would be a much more effective person if I hadn't watched so damn much TV, and a less damaged person without all those commercials, for my childhood. How did your sons feel about it at the time, and now?

palaeoqueen
March 18th, 2013, 05:27 AM
Nope, I don't. I average about 6/8" a month. I just trim slightly less than that. They are usually microtrims. I do have one side that grows a little faster than the other, so I trim enough to keep everything even and the splits at bay. I notice if I go longer between trims, I end up trimming far more to get my ends back the way I like them.

ETA: That should read 5/8" or just over the average. However, lately I have been having a growth spurt so it may be closer to 6/8". Hardly astonishing by any means!

I agree. I microtrim each month at the moment, my hair grows on average 0.5" per month and I trim 0.25" or less off so still see plenty of growth.

Nedertane
March 18th, 2013, 07:35 AM
As much as people say it's their choice, that's not what the beauty industry says. Maybe they're not holding a gun to people's head so that they buy their products but they definitely use every effective method to make people feel as if they need to have their products in order to look a certain way, looking a certain way is the most desirable way to look and women SHOULD look that way.

That's part of the reason it's such a damn shame when women end up destroying naturally pretty hair in order to chase a different look that maybe never suited them to begin with or maybe they wouldn't have wanted it if it weren't hammered into them. Did the girl with curly hair HAVE to have straight hair? Did the girl with black hair HAVE to have some golden highlights for "dimension?"

I understand that some people just want to have a look and playing with appearance is fun. I get it. But if that were the case with everyone or even most people, wouldn't there be far more varieties of looks? I feel like there's definitely a compulsion to these looks and their upkeep. Chances are, these women just wanted to look pretty. That's totally fair, heck, I want to look pretty too. But when it starts to get screwy is when they're told that they have to jump through X number of hoops and spend X number of dollars to achieve this specific look and THEN they'll be pretty.

Bolded mine.

I remember getting some special hair style magazine randomly in the mail a couple years back (almost looked like something for a hairdresser, so NO IDEA why I got it, especially considering that I was still a highschooler). While I think I did know better, and it didn't influence my choices in the long or short run, it really DID make me feel so bad about my hair. It basically said fine and/or thin hair was crap, and you shouldn't even try to grow/keep it long. As expected, the whole thing was filled with models with literally perfect hair, photoshop or no - perfectly manicured bobs, pixies you could use a leveler on, voluminous "long" styles, I could go on. Like I said, though it didn't make me cut or change my hair right then and there, I still felt so awful for having long, fine hair, wondering if it was basically useless and worthless. I actually may have cried.

Heh, not to derail the thread, but this may have been before I started really getting into metal, and before I was able to have some early "hair models". I mean, seriously, so many of the men and women of metal have long, fine hair, and no one's given them crap for it! Thus, I guess that's when my hair "teachers" appeared, and I felt loads better about my hair and image, if that makes sense.

WaitingSoLong
March 18th, 2013, 07:37 AM
The diet and fitness industry are just the same if you don't understand the theory behind it.

All three industries are geared toward continued sales...they don't actually want you to lose weight and keep it off, nor find a brilliant hair solution that works for you.

So is the medical industry and everything else. Nothing exists but not for the making of $$$.


America is the Land of Consumerism. You must keep buying, consuming, buying again, paying for services that will make you need to pay for more services... This cycle is super ingrained in our culture, and permeates every aspect of life, hair included. Resilient self-sufficiency is the enemy of capitalism. The only way to keep this kind of economy strong is to keep the people weak, so they think they need Help. But it's false help, designed to require more help. And more Things. Strength lies in ourselves, our communities, and in Nature, not in goods and services--but the capitalist machine doesn't want you to know that!

I'm so grateful to be a part of this international forum focused on creating resilient, community-supported self-sufficiency of hair care. May we spread this mindset far and wide.

If you have Netflix, try watching Zeitgeist the documentary. It's about American )actually, global) economics and why it is failing. It explains all this nicely.

And I agree, but not for this place I was entirely clueless and uninformed. I just didn't know it.

I don't totally agree that when the student is ready the teacher appears because we often run to the wrong teachers first. It's not for lack of trying or wanting good info, it's that the real stuff hides on corners.


I've started wearing them again on warm days recently (I can't quite do it in the winter)

DH and I wear Injinji (http://www.injinji.com/)socks with our VFF's. Unless there is deep snow, or sub-zero (F) temps, wearing in winter is not an issue.



That said, I think it can be really difficult to break out of the mainstream cycle of information when that's all you've ever known. Beauty magazines, TV, and observable trends in the street can shape one's perception of reality, and the fact that there is another path isn't even imaginable. If you don't know it exists, how can you look for it?

I think some things must be learned by error. I had my hair pixied back in 1998. I confidently took a picture from a magazine I saw into the hair-dressers and said "do this to my hair". She actually DIDN'T WANT TO, saying it was too drastic a change. I was adamant. I left with the cut I wanted and was happy as a clam. Until...I realized the cut looked horrid with my features. And that I had a cowlick in the back of my head I never knew about until then. But I honestly don't regret it because I learned that I can't just have so-and-so's hair. I have to work with MY hair texture and my facial structure.


I'll admit, in high school I DID try washing and blow frying every morning, but that didn't really last.

I am astounded that my daughter has not tried most popular things. A lot of her friends get highlights and color their hair and get stylish cuts. My dd never has (yet). I asked her about it once, I heard her criticizing her one friend's latest highlights. She acted like altering your hair that was was stupid. (?) However, she went through a couple months of flat-ironing until she saw the damage. She came to me wanting to know why her hair felt weird and I told her it was the flat iron. She wanted to know how to fix it. heh. I said it would eventually have to be trimmed out. She stopped flat-ironing. She also dip-dyed her ends with koolade once but she knew it was not permanent and it did eventually completely fade out. Took a few months.


I understand that some people just want to have a look and playing with appearance is fun. I get it. But if that were the case with everyone or even most people, wouldn't there be far more varieties of looks?

This reminds me of when my son had his BSL hair cut. He said he wanted to do something different and look "unique" and then promptly had his hair cut like every other 18 year old boy around here. Me and DH just shook our heads. I remember taking him and his friends biking one day and, from behind, you just about couldn't tell who was who. They all had the same color/length/style.


Hopefully people eventually figure out that the beauty industry is about selling products, nothing more. It is all part and parcel for living in a capitalist society. Everyone is trying to sell something and sometimes use unethical methods to do so, IMO. Like Photoshoping models to look better than they do.

I am so opposed to the whole commercialism thing that when my sons were very young, I actually turned off the TV for seven years to avoid commercials. I didn't want them exposed to the brain washing. (We did rent movies and started getting Netflix, but just nothing with commercials!)

ITA.
I stopped watching TV about 12 years ago. (It was right before 9-11 and I was one of the last to know because I didn't have the TV on all day). Basically, we are too cheap to pay for television when there is other perfectly good things to occupy my time. Plus the news has always bothered me (I am very empathetic and highly emotional). It is amazing to me how many conversations in life center around things we see on TV. "Have you seen that funny commercial..." or "You know (john smith) from (that tv show)..." and we are always like....uh...no? We frequently tell people we don't watch TV but they don't seem to HEAR us.

However, we did discover Netflix about 2 years ago. Now we can watch TV (when someone recommends a show) without commercials. It is great. So I am a little more clued in about TV shows but not commercials. The only advertising I see is on the web and I have AD BLOCK.

WaitingSoLong
March 18th, 2013, 07:40 AM
Was talking yesterday to a group of friends. It really struck me strongly how CONVINCED women are that their hair can't grow, even with all kinds of evidence to the contrary, because of the culture here in the US surrounding hair care. Three of the women were complaining about how their hair has 'stopped growing'.

I intended to respond to the OP here.
I had this conversation just the other day with someone I know from church. She says her hair won't grow past her collarbone. Yet she is on FB every couple weeks getting her hair cut, highlighted, dyed, etc. She really believes it cannot get longer! I gently told her she COULD grow her hair longer but didn't offer any advice. She never replied.

Nedertane
March 18th, 2013, 07:49 AM
I understand that some people just want to have a look and playing with appearance is fun. I get it. But if that were the case with everyone or even most people, wouldn't there be far more varieties of looks?

If social psychology has any validity, then nope. Particularly in Western society, we like to think we are more unique, intelligent and less biased than everyone else, but we are still pretty much as likely to fall into some "hive mind" or another. When it comes to hair for much of America, it's the "dye and blowdry" hive mind, but with some minor variations, at least as dictated by fashion mags and such.

ravenreed
March 18th, 2013, 09:16 AM
They were young enough that it wasn't a huge problem. I kept enough VHS movies around that they had something to watch when they wanted. I don't think they even remember it much. Even today, we are more likely to watch Netflix than cable, so when I do watch something on cable TV I am surprised by the commercials and remember why I hate them so much!


This is so beautifully put! :flower:




That's super awesome! I haven't lived with TV for most of my adult life (which is only the last 7 years), but I think I would be a much more effective person if I hadn't watched so damn much TV, and a less damaged person without all those commercials, for my childhood. How did your sons feel about it at the time, and now?

ravenreed
March 18th, 2013, 09:18 AM
You can still see the hive mind thing on LHC if you look for it at all. We have just substituted one set of norms for another. ;)


If social psychology has any validity, then nope. Particularly in Western society, we like to think we are more unique, intelligent and less biased than everyone else, but we are still pretty much as likely to fall into some "hive mind" or another. When it comes to hair for much of America, it's the "dye and blowdry" hive mind, but with some minor variations, at least as dictated by fashion mags and such.

Nedertane
March 18th, 2013, 09:31 AM
You can still see the hive mind thing on LHC if you look for it at all. We have just substituted one set of norms for another. ;)

Damn straight. ;)

leslissocool
March 18th, 2013, 09:32 AM
I am so opposed to the whole commercialism thing that when my sons were very young, I actually turned off the TV for seven years to avoid commercials. I didn't want them exposed to the brain washing. (We did rent movies and started getting Netflix, but just nothing with commercials!)

I haven't have cable for years, before the twins were born even so they don't know what it's like to "watch TV" other than movies.

I have Netflix, Hulu and movies. I don't need cable, it's so much easier to monitor what my 13 year old watches if I can see it on the neflix. The hulu is used by me only, a girl's gotta watch her Korean Drama!

My 13 year old complains sometimes, he grew up stuck to the TV but otherwise he is ok. My kid's idea of commercialism is watching a move 15 times and then asking me for a toy. I'm very blessed, because I take my kids to the toy store to pick a toy and 80% they don't, they just play with everything and they end up not liking it. So what I do is for their birthday I notice what movie they really like and find a toy about it, and it's instant win. We have things like Minnie mouse's, and all the aliens from toy story, and the Monster's inc toys (mike, boo and sully, they are so exited that the new movie comes out soon!) and alien VS predator toys that look really scary but my kids love scary toys. And really, that's all the stuffed animals my kids have (twins) that they have asked for and like. The rest are mix matched trains, legos, blocks and puzzles.

I really think what helps is that there is no TV. Kids like what they know, and if a commercial runs 50 times while they watch a movie they WILL ask you for it. On the other hand, my kids pick the movies they like so chances of them getting a toy they like from it are so much higher than just asking and asking for crap that they play once and never use again.

ravenreed
March 18th, 2013, 09:38 AM
The only reason we have cable now is because our DSL provider started complaining about our bandwidth usage from us streaming movies all the time. Since it is almost the same price with basic cable as without...

For birthdays I used to give cash and we would make a big thing of going to Toys R Us. Then I could watch as my sons made piles... I can get three of these, or four of those, or one of these and two of those... It worked really well. They loved every toy they picked, and understood the value of their toys more. It also improved their math skills as they were determined to get the most for their money. Lol!


I haven't have cable for years, before the twins were born even so they don't know what it's like to "watch TV" other than movies.

I have Netflix, Hulu and movies. I don't need cable, it's so much easier to monitor what my 13 year old watches if I can see it on the neflix. The hulu is used by me only, a girl's gotta watch her Korean Drama!

My 13 year old complains sometimes, he grew up stuck to the TV but otherwise he is ok. My kid's idea of commercialism is watching a move 15 times and then asking me for a toy. I'm very blessed, because I take my kids to the toy store to pick a toy and 80% they don't, they just play with everything and they end up not liking it. So what I do is for their birthday I notice what movie they really like and find a toy about it, and it's instant win. We have things like Minnie mouse's, and all the aliens from toy story, and the Monster's ink toys (mike, boo and sully) and alien VS predator toys that look really scary but my kids love scary toys. And really, that's all the stuffed animals my kids have (twins) that they have asked for and like. The rest are mix matched trains, legos, blocks and puzzles.

I really think what helps is that there is no TV. Kids like what they know, and if a commercial runs 50 times while they watch a movie they WILL ask you for it. On the other hand, my kids pick the movies they like so chances of them getting a toy they like from it are so much higher than just asking and asking for crap that they play once and never use again.

furnival
March 18th, 2013, 09:47 AM
You can still see the hive mind thing on LHC if you look for it at all. We have just substituted one set of norms for another. ;)
Yup. :thumbsup:

embee
March 18th, 2013, 10:39 AM
ITA.
I stopped watching TV about 12 years ago. (It was right before 9-11 and I was one of the last to know because I didn't have the TV on all day). Basically, we are too cheap to pay for television when there is other perfectly good things to occupy my time. Plus the news has always bothered me (I am very empathetic and highly emotional). It is amazing to me how many conversations in life center around things we see on TV. "Have you seen that funny commercial..." or "You know (john smith) from (that tv show)..." and we are always like....uh...no? We frequently tell people we don't watch TV but they don't seem to HEAR us.

Oh yes, this!!! (I heard about 9-11 on the radio - as it was happening! Only saw reruns on TV the next day at lunch. It was very shocking.)

When my TV died, they were talking about the new HDTV and how old TVs wouldn't work any more, and I thought, well... that's the end of that, 'cause I hadn't the $$ for a new expensive TV. And I have not missed it. There is so much to do, so many books to read, so many things online, plus singing, gardening, crocheting, cooking, sewing, not to mention going to work, and there's *not nearly* enough time. :) I surely do not miss that PushPushPush to buy stuff, nor that constant YouFail. Gee whiz, I have enough of my mom's put-downs in my head, I don't need the TV too! :D

Yes, there is a some HiveMind on LHC, but one can take a different path and get some support here, unlike in the Real World.

Naiadryade
March 18th, 2013, 10:40 AM
You can still see the hive mind thing on LHC if you look for it at all. We have just substituted one set of norms for another. ;)

Oh, absolutely. "Hive mind" can be a great thing when the behaviors help you as instead of harming you. It spreads knowledge and skills, and it facilitates cooperation. We are human, after all! Social interaction in groups is how our brains got so big, and how we evolved such effective strategies for survival and thrival. Trouble is, with such complexity corruption is common, in which some people benefit while others suffer. I think LHC is largely a beneficial hive mind--everyone involved is on equal footing (though some are more revered for what they know and have achieved, and the help they give others) and everyone benefits. Except, maybe, for all the screen time it adds to some of our lives!




If you have Netflix, try watching Zeitgeist the documentary. It's about American )actually, global) economics and why it is failing. It explains all this nicely.

DH and I wear Injinji (http://www.injinji.com/)socks with our VFF's. Unless there is deep snow, or sub-zero (F) temps, wearing in winter is not an issue.


Thanks! I don't have Netflix, but I have my ways. I'll check it out.

And I have Injinji socks. They are great for early spring and late fall. Though in early spring my feet will get wet, so it needs to be above like 40 to be comfortable. In late fall I can go down to freezing if it's not wet. Where I live, "winter" is synonymous with deep snow AND sub-freezing temperatures for months on end. Except, lately, for some very climate changey months and, last year, a season. Right now, approaching the "first day of spring," there is still a foot and a half left of what was 3 feet of accumulated snow, and we might get up to another foot tomorrow! And I live in the woods where we make paths through the snow with our feet, not in a city where the sidewalks are nicely cleared for you.

ravenreed
March 18th, 2013, 11:00 AM
I think it is mostly beneficial, but I see some excessive worry about damage, for instance. I also see a lot of negativity towards non-LHC approved methods, which bugs me a lot. And I see people come here and want us to to what the beauty industry does... give absolutes and do the thinking for us. "If you do this method, your hair will be perfect forever and ever." And then they get upset when they try an LHC method and their hair gets worse. I go by YMMV. What works for me may not work for you. YOU need to figure out what your hair needs yourself, and be the expert on your own haircare.


Oh, absolutely. "Hive mind" can be a great thing when the behaviors help you as instead of harming you. It spreads knowledge and skills, and it facilitates cooperation. We are human, after all! Social interaction in groups is how our brains got so big, and how we evolved such effective strategies for survival and thrival. Trouble is, with such complexity corruption is common, in which some people benefit while others suffer. I think LHC is largely a beneficial hive mind--everyone involved is on equal footing (though some are more revered for what they know and have achieved, and the help they give others) and everyone benefits. Except, maybe, for all the screen time it adds to some of our lives!




Thanks! I don't have Netflix, but I have my ways. I'll check it out.

And I have Injinji socks. They are great for early spring and late fall. Though in early spring my feet will get wet, so it needs to be above like 40 to be comfortable. In late fall I can go down to freezing if it's not wet. Where I live, "winter" is synonymous with deep snow AND sub-freezing temperatures for months on end. Except, lately, for some very climate changey months and, last year, a season. Right now, approaching the "first day of spring," there is still a foot and a half left of what was 3 feet of accumulated snow, and we might get up to another foot tomorrow! And I live in the woods where we make paths through the snow with our feet, not in a city where the sidewalks are nicely cleared for you.

WaitingSoLong
March 18th, 2013, 11:04 AM
I think it is mostly beneficial, but I see some excessive worry about damage, for instance. I also see a lot of negativity towards non-LHC approved methods, which bugs me a lot. And I see people come here and want us to to what the beauty industry does... give absolutes and do the thinking for us. "If you do this method, your hair will be perfect forever and ever." And then they get upset when they try an LHC method and their hair gets worse. I go by YMMV. What works for me may not work for you. YOU need to figure out what your hair needs yourself, and be the expert on your own haircare.

I agree with all of this. I think hair should be enjoyed, too, which is my current dilemma. But that is another story. I enjoy seeing people's new dye jobs or crazy colors or dreads or whatever. Hair health is great if you intend to grow super long but at some point I sacrifice a little hair health for the sake of something else. I blow-dry my hair, for example. If that means it will never grow to the floor then OH WELL!

ravenreed
March 18th, 2013, 11:10 AM
And that should be okay too, IMO. But I feel like I am strident sometimes in my vocal support of those who do non-LHC approved things, just trying to leave space here for those of us who do. Ah well. I know there are enough of us that I don't feel too alone.


I agree with all of this. I think hair should be enjoyed, too, which is my current dilemma. But that is another story. I enjoy seeing people's new dye jobs or crazy colors or dreads or whatever. Hair health is great if you intend to grow super long but at some point I sacrifice a little hair health for the sake of something else. I blow-dry my hair, for example. If that means it will never grow to the floor then OH WELL!

ghost
March 18th, 2013, 02:24 PM
I think to some degree, people realize that they're setting themselves up for damage when they choose to have their hair colored, bleached, or highlighted. They might just not realize how much it will affect their hair, especially over time, and that's what shocks them. I remember feeling that way when I colored my hair every 3 weeks with box color to try and preserve my red, and it snapped off at the same rate that it grew out. Same thing when I bleached my TBL hair -I knew it would take some damage, just not that it would go completely gummy and have to be cut off.
For people getting their growth cut off every month by hairdressers, though, even when they're not at the salon for a trim...I wonder how they fail to realize that getting a trim every month might not be the best thing if they want their hair to grow. Even magazines like Cosmo freely give out the information that hair grows at about 0.5"/month, and that if you want your hair to grow, you should only have a trim every 8 weeks and never a very big one.

ravenreed
March 18th, 2013, 02:39 PM
I don't know how people can think that coloring or flat ironing won't cause some damage. I knew it in the 80's when I was coloring my hair a different color every month. I bleached the HECK out of it too. I knew what I was doing had the potential to go horribly wrong.


I think to some degree, people realize that they're setting themselves up for damage when they choose to have their hair colored, bleached, or highlighted. They might just not realize how much it will affect their hair, especially over time, and that's what shocks them. I remember feeling that way when I colored my hair every 3 weeks with box color to try and preserve my red, and it snapped off at the same rate that it grew out. Same thing when I bleached my TBL hair -I knew it would take some damage, just not that it would go completely gummy and have to be cut off.
For people getting their growth cut off every month by hairdressers, though, even when they're not at the salon for a trim...I wonder how they fail to realize that getting a trim every month might not be the best thing if they want their hair to grow. Even magazines like Cosmo freely give out the information that hair grows at about 0.5"/month, and that if you want your hair to grow, you should only have a trim every 8 weeks and never a very big one.

kidari
March 18th, 2013, 03:07 PM
There are a few exceptions. Some people are blessed with really resilient thick, coarse hair that can really stand up to chemical processing and heat applied constantly and still look good. With the use of sophisticated formulations, mostly containing cones as well as proteins and oils and such, as well as high-end tools used with wisdom and precision, you really can still have nice looking hair that grows long. Someone with thick, coarse hair that goes to a talented colorist and excellent stylist can purchase gentle shampoos and effective rich conditioners and go home to meticulously style their hair with the use of sophisticated heat tools used on the right setting and with the right technique. You can't discount mainstream hair care completely. Personally, I had an excellent colorist who took my dark brown hair to a dark multitonal blonde and I had it at waist length for years. It never had splits and it was only prone to being a bit dry and frizzy but the routine and products I used really did take care of it. It just took more effort and money but at the time it was completely worth it to me. I could never use shampoo bars, go WO, or use homemade shampoos because I have hard water. Regular mainstream shampoos are a life saver to me and give me the hair I want.

furnival
March 18th, 2013, 03:53 PM
There are a few exceptions. Some people are blessed with really resilient thick, coarse hair that can really stand up to chemical processing and heat applied constantly and still look good. With the use of sophisticated formulations, mostly containing cones as well as proteins and oils and such, as well as high-end tools used with wisdom and precision, you really can still have nice looking hair that grows long. Someone with thick, coarse hair that goes to a talented colorist and excellent stylist can purchase gentle shampoos and effective rich conditioners and go home to meticulously style their hair with the use of sophisticated heat tools used on the right setting and with the right technique. You can't discount mainstream hair care completely.
So... What you're saying is, the benefits of mainstream hair care cannot be discounted completely, because some people have hair that is strong enough to withstand it?
Isn't that similar to saying that the health benefits of smoking cannot be discounted completely because some smokers live to a ripe old age? ;)

Fethenwen
March 18th, 2013, 04:09 PM
America is the Land of Consumerism. You must keep buying, consuming, buying again, paying for services that will make you need to pay for more services... This cycle is super ingrained in our culture, and permeates every aspect of life, hair included. Resilient self-sufficiency is the enemy of capitalism. The only way to keep this kind of economy strong is to keep the people weak, so they think they need Help. But it's false help, designed to require more help. And more Things. Strength lies in ourselves, our communities, and in Nature, not in goods and services--but the capitalist machine doesn't want you to know that!

I'm so grateful to be a part of this international forum focused on creating resilient, community-supported self-sufficiency of hair care. May we spread this mindset far and wide.

Yes, well said :hifive: I think that going against the mainstream and try learn and do stuff for oneself instead of having the corporations doing everything ready-made and pay for it is a way to challenge the system. If just a tiny bit :)

Mesmerise
March 18th, 2013, 04:41 PM
ITA.
I stopped watching TV about 12 years ago. (It was right before 9-11 and I was one of the last to know because I didn't have the TV on all day). Basically, we are too cheap to pay for television when there is other perfectly good things to occupy my time. Plus the news has always bothered me (I am very empathetic and highly emotional). It is amazing to me how many conversations in life center around things we see on TV. "Have you seen that funny commercial..." or "You know (john smith) from (that tv show)..." and we are always like....uh...no? We frequently tell people we don't watch TV but they don't seem to HEAR us.


I am the same. I hardly ever watch TV, and the shows I do watch are on the ABC (Australian TV) which isn't commercial and thus doesn't have regular ads on it! We also only have free TV because I'm damned if I'm going to pay for TV!! (There are more than enough free channels these days anyway, as far as I can tell, heaps more than we had as kids).

I will admit to doing some stupid stuff to my hair over the years, but I was always smart enough to figure out WHY my hair was damage! I also never fell for the "trim every 6 to 8 weeks" thing. When I wanted to grow my hair, I grew it... I didn't get it trimmed all the time (bear in mind it was usually grown from reasonably short, so the ends were always pretty good for a few months anyway). I never used to get split ends, so when I DID (after dyeing, straightening, perming etc.) I was able to figure out the cause of the damage.

I'm kind of surprised that people can't figure this stuff out for themselves! I mean if you have healthy, long hair by just trimming occasionally, washing when it needs, and not doing any crap to it... and when you start actually straightening, dyeing etc. and your hair starts going bad... wouldn't you put two and two together?! It's pretty simple cause and effect! If you had great hair as a child before you started doing damaging stuff to your hair... and now as an adult your hair is breaking and splitting, again, how hard could it be to figure it out?!

ravenreed
March 18th, 2013, 05:00 PM
No, but honestly, the message on LHC is the complete opposite. Everyone's hair is going to fall apart if you so much as look at it wrong. I don't buy it. I don't think you can blow dry, flat iron AND color without running into trouble. However, for the average person growing hair to the average length, the modern method is fine. It's when people try to do everything harmful or grow their hair out to longer lengths that there start being problems. I know plenty of women who shampoo, condition, and blow dry every day without a hiccup.



So... What you're saying is, the benefits of mainstream hair care cannot be discounted completely, because some people have hair that is strong enough to withstand it?
Isn't that similar to saying that the health benefits of smoking cannot be discounted completely because some smokers live to a ripe old age? ;)

furnival
March 18th, 2013, 05:19 PM
No, but honestly, the message on LHC is the complete opposite. Everyone's hair is going to fall apart if you so much as look at it wrong. I don't buy it. I don't think you can blow dry, flat iron AND color without running into trouble. However, for the average person growing hair to the average length, the modern method is fine. It's when people try to do everything harmful or grow their hair out to longer lengths that there start being problems. I know plenty of women who shampoo, condition, and blow dry every day without a hiccup.
I agree completely, I was just attempting to highlight what I saw as skewed logic.

My Mum is 60 next month and has incredibly fine hair, like strands of cobweb. She has grown it to mid-thigh using normal s&c, an eeeevil ball-tipped brush, damaging metal elastics (gasp) and no LHC methods at all, except for a natural aversion to dyes, heat and styling tools. It is in lovely condition and looks beautiful, like a silver scarf of shiny silk. It took her thirty years though...

WaitingSoLong
March 18th, 2013, 06:04 PM
No, but honestly, the message on LHC is the complete opposite. Everyone's hair is going to fall apart if you so much as look at it wrong. I don't buy it. I don't think you can blow dry, flat iron AND color without running into trouble. However, for the average person growing hair to the average length, the modern method is fine. It's when people try to do everything harmful or grow their hair out to longer lengths that there start being problems. I know plenty of women who shampoo, condition, and blow dry every day without a hiccup.

I agree with this. On short hair/maintained length, you can get away with quite a lot.

ravenreed
March 19th, 2013, 03:10 AM
Fair enough. :)


I agree completely, I was just attempting to highlight what I saw as skewed logic.

My Mum is 60 next month and has incredibly fine hair, like strands of cobweb. She has grown it to mid-thigh using normal s&c, an eeeevil ball-tipped brush, damaging metal elastics (gasp) and no LHC methods at all, except for a natural aversion to dyes, heat and styling tools. It is in lovely condition and looks beautiful, like a silver scarf of shiny silk. It took her thirty years though...

kidari
March 19th, 2013, 03:17 AM
So... What you're saying is, the benefits of mainstream hair care cannot be discounted completely, because some people have hair that is strong enough to withstand it?
Isn't that similar to saying that the health benefits of smoking cannot be discounted completely because some smokers live to a ripe old age? ;)

No, I'm saying that mainstream hair care can work better for some people than others due to many factors, including hair type. The other factor is how well a person understands their hair and its needs and which type of routine and products are best suited for it. My whole point I guess is that anything can be misleading if you are following a routine someone does that has hair and scalp issues completely different from your own. Also, you can practice any type of hair care routine in a bad way whether it's mainstream or not. But keep in mind that my words are from someone who is very "American" and even nearly 2 years on this forum I still have tons of changes I need to make. I still have a lot of remnants from the brainwashing of beauty capitalism and the more I learn on here the better off I feel each and every day.

Suze2012
March 19th, 2013, 03:51 AM
I agree that mainstream hair care can work and work amazingly for some people.

One of the reasons we tr different things and post our reviews is that some things will work for some but not for others.

I have a friend with beautiful silky hair..it's always in good condition and she highlights and straightens and blow dries and uses shampoo.
One thing I do know that she does it switch her shampoo & conditioner brand around each time she needs a new one.

It all works for her and if I were her I wouldn't change what she is doing but it doesn't do my hair any good..as I've tried all those things.

furnival
March 19th, 2013, 04:24 AM
No, I'm saying that mainstream hair care can work better for some people than others due to many factors, including hair type. The other factor is how well a person understands their hair and its needs and which type of routine and products are best suited for it. My whole point I guess is that anything can be misleading if you are following a routine someone does that has hair and scalp issues completely different from your own. Also, you can practice any type of hair care routine in a bad way whether it's mainstream or not. But keep in mind that my words are from someone who is very "American" and even nearly 2 years on this forum I still have tons of changes I need to make. I still have a lot of remnants from the brainwashing of beauty capitalism and the more I learn on here the better off I feel each and every day.
'The brainwashing of beauty capitalism'... I like it ;)
I agree that a good understanding of your hair type and its needs can go a long way towards mitigating the ravages of the more damaging aspects of mainstream hair care, but my main problem is the way that companies deliberately mislead the public, so it's understandable that so many are ignorant. Not many people ARE well informed about how to care for their hair- and it's not surprising, given the amount of misinformation out there. I'm still sore about a box dye disaster several years ago, when I thought I was informed because I'd read the box and the leaflet carefully and was satisfied with the manufacturer's claim that, far from damaging my hair, their product would leave it in better condition than before. What a fool. :doh: Now, of course, I wonder how I could have been so ignorant, but the fact is that I can't think of any other product that does exactly the opposite of what it claims on the box and isn't pulled off the shelves.

The average person destroying their hair is ignorant even of the fact they are ignorant. My aunt is a hairdresser and frequently expresses puzzlement at how long my hair is growing whilst her bleached, straightened stuff 'won't grow' past her bloomin' ears... This is a professional hairdresser... :brickwall

kidari
March 19th, 2013, 05:49 AM
^^

Yes, it's really crazy how social norms and contrived advertising, etc. really get ingrained to your ways of thinking about things. I really think that scariest part is the part you mentioned about being ignorant about being ignorant. It's really bad when you are conditioned to think of things a certain way or you simply don't know anything else... you tend to think that your way is the right way so you keep doing what you are doing, thinking you are always right. Meanwhile, you can actually be wrong and you are oblivious to the fact such as the unfortunate people who keep trying to grow their hair and it keeps drying out, frying, and breaking faster than it grows.

The boxed dyes advertising themselves as being healthy and good for your hair is extremely misleading and scary. This made me think of Pantene and L'oreal's new product lines that are designed for "aging" hair and "advanced hair care." The Pantene Age Defy products go for I think more than twice the normal cost of their regular products, yet you read these "nourishing" special care formulations and drying alcohols are listed high up on the ingredients list. Same goes for the L'oreal "total repair" and "power moisture" products- I wanted to try some of their masks and hair oils but was beyond shocked when I saw alcohol denat. pretty much listed 3rd or so on the ingredients list for a moisturizing hair oil. (I am not sure how accurate I am right now since I'm only recalling from memory but I am fairly certain that I am not exaggerating by much). It's horrible because people who don't look at ingredients lists will fork over extra money for these items, which over time can dry out their hair and contribute to breakage. Leaving them in a cycle where they spend more money for the next miracle product that will fix another new problem that was caused.

Suze2012
March 19th, 2013, 05:58 AM
'My aunt is a hairdresser and frequently expresses puzzlement at how long my hair is growing whilst her bleached, straightened stuff 'won't grow' past her bloomin' ears... This is a professional hairdresser... :brickwall

That....is quite shocking!


Aside from that and in general we do seem to live in a 'listen to what you want to and blame everyone/thing else' culture though.

I mentioned before but the diet industry can be just the same.
Failure is relied upon in diet, fitness and the beauty industry.

It makes me laugh to be honest as I have been and still am sometimes the mug who thinks things will work too.
Even to the point of spending 3 last year on an ee make up remover that claimed to work for waterproof mascara.....it probably does if you have the time for it and are prepared to rake the skin around your eyes..I think I tried it twice before turning to my coconut oil sitting innocently waiting for me in my bathroom.......ho hum...

furnival
March 19th, 2013, 06:21 AM
It's horrible because people who don't look at ingredients lists will fork over extra money for these items, which over time can dry out their hair and contribute to breakage. Leaving them in a cycle where they spend more money for the next miracle product that will fix another new problem that was caused.
The most sickening part of this cynical and manipulative method of selling products is that it is good for business to damage people's hair. I wonder if it applies to other products? Drugs that make you sick, diet aids that make you fat, skin care products that wreck your skin... The slavering greed behind companies' drive to make money makes me think this is easily possible. :puke:

ETA: Thinking about what you said about 'age defying' hair products or whatnot containing drying alcohols... Isn't dryness one of the main 'ageing' problems this range is supposed to solve? So poor ignorant people are watching their hair get drier and drier and attributing it only to the fact that they're getting older because that's what it says on the packaging...

Suze2012
March 19th, 2013, 06:50 AM
The most sickening part of this cynical and manipulative method of selling products is that it is good for business to damage people's hair. I wonder if it applies to other products? Drugs that make you sick, diet aids that make you fat, skin care products that wreck your skin... The slavering greed behind companies' drive to make money makes me think this is easily possible. :puke:

Re: the diet aids that make you fat...

There was a documentary a while ago in the UK which tested the theory and a woman who usually ate ordinary food switched it all for diet ready meals and snacks.
She put on about half a stone in a month and her normal other routines exercise and everything else she did as normal.
All she changed was from normal food to the diet substitute for it.

ravenreed
March 19th, 2013, 10:31 AM
Any and all studies on diets show that the best way to predict weight gain is whether someone has gone on a diet or not. You are not only likely to not lose weight on a typical diet, but if you do lose any, you are more likely to gain it all back and about 10% more.


Re: the diet aids that make you fat...

There was a documentary a while ago in the UK which tested the theory and a woman who usually ate ordinary food switched it all for diet ready meals and snacks.
She put on about half a stone in a month and her normal other routines exercise and everything else she did as normal.
All she changed was from normal food to the diet substitute for it.

kellinaturalmom
March 19th, 2013, 11:48 AM
Wow... just read through this thread and I agree with almost everything you guys are saying. What is a mystery is why people just don't get it. I'm sure most of you have a person in your life who has crappy dry frizzy hair and believes what they read on the shampoo bottles and the hair color boxes and won't listen to what you have to say. It's very frustrating when an otherwise intelligent person refuses to acknowledge the fact that these companies are LYING to us. They won't accept your wealth of LHC knowledge. This person most likely doesn't support you growing out your natural color/not cutting and encourages you to "do something" with your hair, or implies you're "letting yourself go". WHY?

Also, side note, I just got rid of cable due to money reasons and I swear, it's awesome! I have no intention of getting cable again in the near future. My three kids don't even seem to notice, because we always have lots of DVDs to watch. No commercials, yay!
AND, for you Vibram lovers out there, you should try Xero Shoes (formerly Invisible Shoes). In my humble opinion, they're the best "barefoot" shoes around! :)

furnival
March 19th, 2013, 11:58 AM
Re: the diet aids that make you fat...

There was a documentary a while ago in the UK which tested the theory and a woman who usually ate ordinary food switched it all for diet ready meals and snacks.
She put on about half a stone in a month and her normal other routines exercise and everything else she did as normal.
All she changed was from normal food to the diet substitute for it.
Cripes. It appears that I am not quite cynical enough... :uhh:

What a wonderful, life-enriching principle is the doctrine of consumerism.:bigeyes:

ravenreed
March 19th, 2013, 12:01 PM
Nope, when it comes to consumerism, one can never be cynical enough, IMO.


Cripes. It appears that I am not quite cynical enough... :uhh:

What a wonderful, life-enriching principle is the doctrine of consumerism.:bigeyes:

ravenreed
March 19th, 2013, 12:04 PM
I have been thinking of trying a pair of those for the summer months. I NEED my toes bare in warm weather, lol! However, I got the Vibrams for the gym. I don't know that they would allow open toed shoes there. I was having such a hard time with Zumba because I have a bad back and iffy knees. All the spins were hurting me. When I belly dance, I dance barefoot and have a lot less pain. So that was what me made break down and spend far more than I usually do on a pair of shoes. I am very, very happy with them.


Wow... just read through this thread and I agree with almost everything you guys are saying. What is a mystery is why people just don't get it. I'm sure most of you have a person in your life who has crappy dry frizzy hair and believes what they read on the shampoo bottles and the hair color boxes and won't listen to what you have to say. It's very frustrating when an otherwise intelligent person refuses to acknowledge the fact that these companies are LYING to us. They won't accept your wealth of LHC knowledge. This person most likely doesn't support you growing out your natural color/not cutting and encourages you to "do something" with your hair, or implies you're "letting yourself go". WHY?

Also, side note, I just got rid of cable due to money reasons and I swear, it's awesome! I have no intention of getting cable again in the near future. My three kids don't even seem to notice, because we always have lots of DVDs to watch. No commercials, yay!
AND, for you Vibram lovers out there, you should try Xero Shoes (formerly Invisible Shoes). In my humble opinion, they're the best "barefoot" shoes around! :)

WaitingSoLong
March 19th, 2013, 03:11 PM
Wow... just read through this thread and I agree with almost everything you guys are saying. What is a mystery is why people just don't get it. I'm sure most of you have a person in your life who has crappy dry frizzy hair and believes what they read on the shampoo bottles and the hair color boxes and won't listen to what you have to say. It's very frustrating when an otherwise intelligent person refuses to acknowledge the fact that these companies are LYING to us. They won't accept your wealth of LHC knowledge. This person most likely doesn't support you growing out your natural color/not cutting and encourages you to "do something" with your hair, or implies you're "letting yourself go". WHY?

Also, side note, I just got rid of cable due to money reasons and I swear, it's awesome! I have no intention of getting cable again in the near future. My three kids don't even seem to notice, because we always have lots of DVDs to watch. No commercials, yay!
AND, for you Vibram lovers out there, you should try Xero Shoes (formerly Invisible Shoes). In my humble opinion, they're the best "barefoot" shoes around!

Especially when they oooh and ahhh over your hair. I believe they are convinced I have super-genes that allows my hair to be this way and that I do the same thing to my hair as everyone else?

Oh. My. Gosh. There are people doing this to me right now on FB. LOL I am contemplating cutting my hair and one person said I would "finally be able to style it"....????? I freaking style my hair every day! Braids, buns, braided bun, etc. BY "style" they mean "with curling iron".

I have seen those. I don't do any shoes with straps that go between my toes, like flip flops. I just don't see how people wear them! Also, I got mine for jogging originally. Not to mention seasons not conducive for open toes. Honestly, I just go barefoot if I want that much freedom. I actually don't wear my vibrams much in summer for heat reasons. I love being barefoot and have decently tough feet (walking on gravel is therapeutic) and I love to drive barefoot.

ravenreed
March 19th, 2013, 03:44 PM
You can't please everyone. For everyone who likes 'styled' hair, there is someone else who like sometime different.

I have trouble walking barefoot outside. I have such tender feet and they never toughen up.


Especially when they oooh and ahhh over your hair. I believe they are convinced I have super-genes that allows my hair to be this way and that I do the same thing to my hair as everyone else?

Oh. My. Gosh. There are people doing this to me right now on FB. LOL I am contemplating cutting my hair and one person said I would "finally be able to style it"....????? I freaking style my hair every day! Braids, buns, braided bun, etc. BY "style" they mean "with curling iron".

I have seen those. I don't do any shoes with straps that go between my toes, like flip flops. I just don't see how people wear them! Also, I got mine for jogging originally. Not to mention seasons not conducive for open toes. Honestly, I just go barefoot if I want that much freedom. I actually don't wear my vibrams much in summer for heat reasons. I love being barefoot and have decently tough feet (walking on gravel is therapeutic) and I love to drive barefoot.

Sascha888
March 19th, 2013, 08:41 PM
For those who have said you trim your own hair, how do you even do that? Mine's getting pretty long. I couldn't imagine trying to do that myself. Is there a trick to it? Does it still look good?

ravenreed
March 19th, 2013, 08:44 PM
I bought a Crea Clip to help me trim my own ends, however before that, I would just pony my hair on top of my head and trim. I like layers and that method gave me very nice ones. However, a lot of our members use Feye's Self-Trim (http://feyeselftrim.livejournal.com/) methods to trim their own hair. Just make sure you get hair cutting scissors and only use them for that one purpose! The only thing I struggle with is bangs/fringe. Some day, I will figure out what I am doing there!


For those who have said you trim your own hair, how do you even do that? Mine's getting pretty long. I couldn't imagine trying to do that myself. Is there a trick to it? Does it still look good?

lapushka
March 19th, 2013, 08:45 PM
For those who have said you trim your own hair, how do you even do that? Mine's getting pretty long. I couldn't imagine trying to do that myself. Is there a trick to it? Does it still look good?

It's called Feye's self-trimming method, right here:
http://feyeselftrim.livejournal.com/

kellinaturalmom
March 19th, 2013, 09:44 PM
Especially when they oooh and ahhh over your hair. I believe they are convinced I have super-genes that allows my hair to be this way and that I do the same thing to my hair as everyone else?

Oh. My. Gosh. There are people doing this to me right now on FB. LOL I am contemplating cutting my hair and one person said I would "finally be able to style it"....????? I freaking style my hair every day! Braids, buns, braided bun, etc. BY "style" they mean "with curling iron".

I have seen those. I don't do any shoes with straps that go between my toes, like flip flops. I just don't see how people wear them! Also, I got mine for jogging originally. Not to mention seasons not conducive for open toes. Honestly, I just go barefoot if I want that much freedom. I actually don't wear my vibrams much in summer for heat reasons. I love being barefoot and have decently tough feet (walking on gravel is therapeutic) and I love to drive barefoot.

Super-genes! LOL.

For someone to say that you'll "finally be able to style it" is a tactless comment.

I love driving barefoot too! It almost feels wrong driving with thick/heeled shoes, like I can't feel or control the car as well. :)

Raponsje
March 20th, 2013, 12:23 AM
In real life I am mostly surrounded by mainstream hair. Woman who go to the hairdresser and regularly dye. Some with better results then others. The reason I hear most is the fear of looking old. Grey is old, long hair is just one more body part heading south and updo's are old fashioned. Not on me of course, but on them I would be. My respons is, so what? Things heading south and turning grey can start at 35. Are you going to fake youth for half of your life? Do actually believe that dyed hair will make people think that you are a sassy twenty something when you're in your fifties? At that point in the discussion logic will have left the building with the closing statement that it still makes you look old.

Synnovea
March 20th, 2013, 12:59 AM
It doesn't matter to me if society thinks grey hair looks old. Ever since I was little, I knew I wanted to have long, silver/white hair one day. I'm already sprouting greys here and there and I rock them with pride. My ex-hairdresser was appalled when I told her I intend on keeping them and allowing my hair to continue growing naturally. She protested, "But greys age women by 10 years!" Although I believe that to be a social construction, even if she's right, I don't care one bit. I find it silvery white hair beautiful, sagely, and confident, and nothing is sexier than confidence.

LakeofGlass
March 20th, 2013, 01:14 AM
Yup, I do Feye's method also. For layers I do about 4 ponies, since I'm growing my layers out. I personally hate layers. Too many spikes.

I make it a point to keep people around me who don't want to change me. If someone would ever dare tell me to cut my hair shorter so I can style it, they would just get the silent, evil look. I think we should all take a page from Jesse's (Full House) book and say, "Not the hair!"

Luminaria
March 20th, 2013, 01:39 AM
Perhaps we live in age of instant results and information. There are sooo many products on the market to alter your hair in anyway (and at anytime) you see fit. Not only that, there is greater access to information about hair and images of hairstyles (websites, TV, magazines, ads, etc.) which can greatly influence a person's hairstyle choice. Trends, celebrities, and friends can also play a key a role in a person's hairstyle choice. With so many options and influences, people probably experiment more with their hair.

Cania
March 20th, 2013, 04:11 AM
No, but honestly, the message on LHC is the complete opposite. Everyone's hair is going to fall apart if you so much as look at it wrong. I don't buy it. I don't think you can blow dry, flat iron AND color without running into trouble. However, for the average person growing hair to the average length, the modern method is fine. It's when people try to do everything harmful or grow their hair out to longer lengths that there start being problems. I know plenty of women who shampoo, condition, and blow dry every day without a hiccup.


Completely agree with everything you've said so far.

I see that blow drying is getting a particularly bad rep on this thread. Here's some interesting research from luxepiggy (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/archive/index.php/t-109230.html) (and some other interesting posts) on the matter.
It seems non-LHCers aren't the only ones who get a bit mixed up with the truth of what's good and bad for their hair. I think that just goes to show how easy it is to end up perpetuating what is, essentially, a myth. There's a lot of misinformation out there.
Blow drying, colouring and even flat ironing can be fine in moderation. Heck, I do all three and I'm a healthy hip length...

Suze2012
March 20th, 2013, 04:22 AM
Completely agree with everything you've said so far.

I see that blow drying is getting a particularly bad rep on this thread. Here's some interesting research from luxepiggy (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/archive/index.php/t-109230.html) (and some other interesting posts) on the matter.
It seems non-LHCers aren't the only ones who get a bit mixed up with the truth of what's good and bad for their hair. I think that just goes to show how easy it is to end up perpetuating what is, essentially, a myth. There's a lot of misinformation out there.
Blow drying, colouring and even flat ironing can be fine in moderation. Heck, I do all three and I'm a healthy hip length...

*cough* I have a confession...*blushes*

Sometimes, when it's really cold outside or i'm running late for work I blast my little travel dryer through my roots to take some of the wetness out.
I've done this about 4 times this year so far and it hasn't affected my hair texture that day.
I used to frizz up with blow drying even just that little bit but I think co washing is helping overall with my now lack of frizz.
I'm even considering (only considering at the moment) getting a dryer which has a diffuser for if I need it dryer in a hurry.

WaitingSoLong
March 20th, 2013, 06:58 AM
I dry my hair all the time. Ok, not ALL the time, but enough. I have yet to see damage from it. :shrug:

HylianGirl
March 20th, 2013, 07:10 AM
I don't think blow driers are that damaging when used correctly, but I avoid them anyway so I don't mess my wurls. Also I know a girl with hio length hair in great condition, and although she streches washes, she also straightens her hair and has some bleached highlights, and honestly I do't see any damage on her hair.

I think most people say blowdrying the hair can be damaging if you use a very hot one often and put it too close to the hair.

Suze2012
March 20th, 2013, 07:44 AM
...and actually...re: blow drying anyway...some hair will accept and like it and some won't..just the same as with everything else us LHC'ers try.

Flat irons...I'know' the did me damage when I saw all the tiny bits of hair falling off...it was a little bit obvious!

Syaoransbear
March 20th, 2013, 08:22 AM
I've never thought blowdryers were very damaging, and I roll my eyes when people call them blow fryers. But I don't doubt that hair straighteners and curlers are damaging. I figure if I can't put it on my skin without receiving burns, I probably shouldn't put it on my hair.

WaitingSoLong
March 20th, 2013, 08:40 AM
I've never thought blowdryers were very damaging, and I roll my eyes when people call them blow fryers. But I don't doubt that hair straighteners and curlers are damaging. I figure if I can't put it on my skin without receiving burns, I probably shouldn't put it on my hair.

EXACTLY!

My dryer doesn't even get that hot and I hold it away from my head at arms length mostly.

LakeofGlass
March 20th, 2013, 08:44 AM
I don't think blow driers are that damaging when used correctly, but I avoid them anyway so I don't mess my wurls. Also I know a girl with hio length hair in great condition, and although she streches washes, she also straightens her hair and has some bleached highlights, and honestly I do't see any damage on her hair.

I think most people say blowdrying the hair can be damaging if you use a very hot one often and put it too close to the hair.
For most people, the damage from blow-drying is when people use it on high, on very hot, and hold the hair still with a brush to get it to try. In high school I'd see girls style their hair after taking a shower for gym. They'd have those round brushes and curl their hair that way. Back then I'd use a curling iron so yeah, I was frying my hair too. Surprisingly my hair has been naturally resilient. Even with damage! But I've seen my hair become even better without that.

With bleaching, the damage in general makes the hair shafts thinner. If it's uniform, you won't see the damage outright. But it's like what Syaoransbear said; I'll apply it to bleaching. If I wouldn't bleach my skin with man-made chemicals, why would I bleach my hair? Ew, what if people bleached and dyed their skin like they did hair?

If there's a natural way to do most things, that is also safe on the body, I believe that's usually the first route to take. I usually share articles with natural health beauty tips so that friends can at least see the alternatives.

kellinaturalmom
March 20th, 2013, 08:54 AM
Completely agree with everything you've said so far.

I see that blow drying is getting a particularly bad rep on this thread. Here's some interesting research from luxepiggy (http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/archive/index.php/t-109230.html) (and some other interesting posts) on the matter.
It seems non-LHCers aren't the only ones who get a bit mixed up with the truth of what's good and bad for their hair. I think that just goes to show how easy it is to end up perpetuating what is, essentially, a myth. There's a lot of misinformation out there.
Blow drying, colouring and even flat ironing can be fine in moderation. Heck, I do all three and I'm a healthy hip length...

Honestly, I think it has to do with your hair type. My mother and sister both have thick fairly course dark hair and both dye and blow dry on a regular basis with little damage. The last time I colored with a box color (about 5 years ago), my hair fell out. My baby fine hair just can't handle bleach, color, or a straightening iron without getting badly damaged. I had to accept the fact that if I do what my mom and sister do - I would be bald.

Unofficial_Rose
March 20th, 2013, 09:28 AM
In real life I am mostly surrounded by mainstream hair. Woman who go to the hairdresser and regularly dye. Some with better results then others. The reason I hear most is the fear of looking old. Grey is old, long hair is just one more body part heading south and updo's are old fashioned. Not on me of course, but on them I would be. My respons is, so what? Things heading south and turning grey can start at 35. Are you going to fake youth for half of your life? Do actually believe that dyed hair will make people think that you are a sassy twenty something when you're in your fifties? At that point in the discussion logic will have left the building with the closing statement that it still makes you look old.

Hmm, yeah, but this also relates to survival in the working world. It would be much harder for a woman with grey hair to get a job in a corporate environment. I've stopped dying mine for the time being, but I've got to go to interviews and I'm hoping it's not too noticeable. No I don't actually believe that brown hair makes me look like a 'sassy 20-something' (interesting how men are never 'sassy', or 'feisty' for that matter) because I'm not a dimwit. But I might look like I fit in a little more. The 'getting paid' element of this is kind of essential.

Cania
March 20th, 2013, 09:35 AM
For most people, the damage from blow-drying is when people use it on high, on very hot, and hold the hair still with a brush to get it to try. In high school I'd see girls style their hair after taking a shower for gym. They'd have those round brushes and curl their hair that way. Back then I'd use a curling iron so yeah, I was frying my hair too. Surprisingly my hair has been naturally resilient. Even with damage! But I've seen my hair become even better without that.

With bleaching, the damage in general makes the hair shafts thinner. If it's uniform, you won't see the damage outright. But it's like what Syaoransbear said; I'll apply it to bleaching. If I wouldn't bleach my skin with man-made chemicals, why would I bleach my hair? Ew, what if people bleached and dyed their skin like they did hair?

If there's a natural way to do most things, that is also safe on the body, I believe that's usually the first route to take. I usually share articles with natural health beauty tips so that friends can at least see the alternatives.

Funnily enough, my hair can't cope with curling irons, which is fine because it holds curl from heat free methods fairly well. I think it's because my hair is already quite straight so I barely have to touch it with a flat iron and it's as straight as I like it.

I think bleaching the skin is a bit different... if I damage my hair doing something stupid, okay that sucks, but it's dead. I'll just chop it off, pain free, and grow it out again. My skin is sensitive, alive and can really hurt. I can't just cut it off and be done with it. Plenty of people do bleach their skin, though.

I haven't bleached my hair since I was about 11, so I have no idea how it would cope. Not very well, I imagine :P



kellinaturalmom -- I completely agree, and sorry to hear about your bad experience!
My point was just that there are a lot of false ideas here on LHC too. The ones I hear most are that blow drying is bad, colouring with anything but henna is bad, coconut oil is amazing... treated like they're hard and fast rules that apply to everyone. It seems there's a lot of that kind of thing both inside and outside of LHC. I know for sure that some LHCers would just have their hair snap off if they treated it the way I treat mine. I imagine my hair care will have to change as I age, too.

Those things are damaging, maybe, but you don't have to stop it to have long, pretty hair in all cases.

LakeofGlass
March 20th, 2013, 09:59 AM
Even though hair is "dead," ironically we all do methods to keep it healthy. I've heard the argument before, but just because it's dead doesn't mean we don't do things to give it "life" somewhat. If we consider truly dead hair follicles, they turn white and are painless to pluck. Actually, mine turn blonde... lol. But they feel wiry and almost brittle. Curling irons fried my ends more so than the shaft, but I never could hold a curl with them. The non-heat methods work better for me because the hair actually dries in place. Pin curls work best for me, but with how long my hair is, I feel like my hair gets in the way if I leave it down with curls. It gets super poofy.

In moderation I don't think that blow-drying is bad. And obviously everyone's hair is different. I think that holding a hot iron to your hair is, especially since hair isn't made of steel. Victorian women used to hold hot tongs to their hair, but would use tissue paper over it. Even then, hair would still burn if the tongs were on too long.

Personally I don't even use coconut oil. I've found my mix of grapeseed and EVOO to be just what works for me so far. In fact I've heard from quite a few that EVOO is better, but i think it's just what the hair reacts to. If your hair likes cones, use them. If your hair likes something else, use it. For some people, henna may be the devil because of how it reacts. I just personally stay away from dying hair with a box because that's not what I want.

In all of the cases, with the "bad bad bad" methods, it's the continual use that damages hair. If you bleach your hair all the time, your hair is bound to get brittle. If you apply direct heat all the time, something's bound to happen. Even too much of a good thing is bad, otherwise we wouldn't need to clarify our hair every so often. And yes, ladies, too much chocolate is bad for you too. :P Unless you're PMSing, of course... Then chocolate is good all the time.

Naiadryade
March 20th, 2013, 10:10 AM
The most sickening part of this cynical and manipulative method of selling products is that it is good for business to damage people's hair. I wonder if it applies to other products? Drugs that make you sick, diet aids that make you fat, skin care products that wreck your skin... The slavering greed behind companies' drive to make money makes me think this is easily possible. :puke:

It definitely applies to other products, especially those you listed but not at all limited to them. This is the way capitalism works! People already gave good information about the diet myth... To take another category, think about drugs. Do you ever pay attention to the list of side effects in drug commercials? Often, some of them are even worse than what the drug is supposed to treat. At least they have to tell you with drugs, but that doesn't stop doctors from prescribing them and then a slew of other drugs to counteract the side effects of the first... and maybe more to counteract the side effects of the drugs that were to stop those side effects.

I have one tiny example from when I was a teenager. I have anxiety, depression, and a rare-ish form of OCD. In high school they tried a bunch of different drugs to "fix" me. Sometimes, the anti-anxiety drugs reduced the ability to focus, so they gave me Ritalin along with it. Naturally, my OCD gave me an almost superhuman ability to focus, for like 12+ hours on one topic! Yet here I was on Ritalin... *sigh* I feel like I have less ability to focus these days, and I have to wonder if years of mind-altering drug cocktails had anything to do with that. And that was just 2 or 3 drugs at a time... it's crazy what they give some people, especially the elderly.


Nope, when it comes to consumerism, one can never be cynical enough, IMO.

Amen!


AND, for you Vibram lovers out there, you should try Xero Shoes (formerly Invisible Shoes). In my humble opinion, they're the best "barefoot" shoes around! :)

I have seen those. I don't do any shoes with straps that go between my toes, like flip flops. I just don't see how people wear them! Also, I got mine for jogging originally. Not to mention seasons not conducive for open toes. Honestly, I just go barefoot if I want that much freedom. I actually don't wear my vibrams much in summer for heat reasons. I love being barefoot and have decently tough feet (walking on gravel is therapeutic) and I love to drive barefoot.

Ooh, thank you kellinaturalmom! I may end up getting those for the summer. Like WaitingSoLong, I prefer to go totally barefoot in the warmer months, and I initially got my VFF's to extend my "barefoot" season into the early spring and late fall. However, the past couple of summers I have been totally frustrated because I work 24/6 for 2 months at a summer camp where we have to wear shoes. I've just been wearing lighter forms of the VFF's, but my feet do get hot, it's not so much fun when it's been raining and I have to put on already-wet VFF's, and they're difficult to put back on on the sandy beach after swimming. The Xeros might be my solution!


I have trouble walking barefoot outside. I have such tender feet and they never toughen up.

How long have you tried before deciding your feet never toughen up? I put up with a couple months of pain every spring in order to go barefoot the rest of the year comfortably. I call this callus-building season. :redgrin:

ravenreed
March 20th, 2013, 10:44 AM
I used to run around barefoot all the time as a kid/teen. I never lost the "Ouch, ouch, ouch!" So I gave up. My feet never seem to toughen up to the point where hot sidewalk or gravel don't hurt.


snipped...


How long have you tried before deciding your feet never toughen up? I put up with a couple months of pain every spring in order to go barefoot the rest of the year comfortably. I call this callus-building season. :redgrin:

WaitingSoLong
March 20th, 2013, 12:38 PM
ravenreed...my husband has sensitive feet and nothing has ever helped. I think some of it is just neurological wiring or something. I was actually amazed he liked the VFF's, but he got the ones with the thickest soles.

HylianGirl
March 20th, 2013, 01:16 PM
For most people, the damage from blow-drying is when people use it on high, on very hot, and hold the hair still with a brush to get it to try. In high school I'd see girls style their hair after taking a shower for gym. They'd have those round brushes and curl their hair that way. Back then I'd use a curling iron so yeah, I was frying my hair too. Surprisingly my hair has been naturally resilient. Even with damage! But I've seen my hair become even better without that.

With bleaching, the damage in general makes the hair shafts thinner. If it's uniform, you won't see the damage outright. But it's like what Syaoransbear said; I'll apply it to bleaching. If I wouldn't bleach my skin with man-made chemicals, why would I bleach my hair? Ew, what if people bleached and dyed their skin like they did hair?

If there's a natural way to do most things, that is also safe on the body, I believe that's usually the first route to take. I usually share articles with natural health beauty tips so that friends can at least see the alternatives.

Oh, I just wrote a response but my PC had a brainfart and I have to rewrite it x.x anyway...

Yeah, I agree, curling and flat irons are much worse than blowdriers, and I would also never put on my hair something that would burn my skin! About bleaching the hair, I have bleached my whole hair when I was younger and, I did it slowly, going from light brown to honey blond and eventually into the white hair by bleaching it once a month and I can definatelly tell that once you bleach it, it will never feel the same way again. But how much damage will show, really depends on the person's hair, and how they take care of it, also the girl I mentioned olny had streaks, she didn't bleach the whole hair.

Anyway, I promised myself after the bleach + chemical straightening mixture that made my hair fall that I would NEVER put chemicals in my hair again, I saw what it does to it. But some people seem to do it and their hair don't react as badly as mine did, even if the hair no longer feels virgin. Heck, my sister has dyed and ombred her hair as well as chemically straighten it and blowdryes everyday and her hair is still thicker than my now virgin MBL hair. People's hair react different to different things.

Latte Lady
March 20th, 2013, 01:20 PM
Strangely enough, I was watching my mother abuse her hair this morning at the hairdressers and was surprised at how nice her hair is.

She has bra strap length hair with a slight layering at the ends. It's rather thin and fine. She colors her hair at the hairdressers at a regular basis. She has a slight natural wave and blow drys and flat irons most day. She makes me cringe when she brushes her hair. She uses a TON of cones and products with icky ingredients. My mother has a "Dirty Day' but otherwise washes her hair every day.

She is split end free.

Her stylist checked her hair to see if it needed a micro trim or dusting and she couldn't find anything wrong and neither could I.

It baffles me that her delicate hair type can take so much abuse and punishment and be so utterly healthy without a hint of breakage! I'm going to raid her bathroom and find out what she uses!

Shout out for a hairdresser that gives micro trims and dusts. A hairdresser that gives her thoughts and opinions in a polite manner and then does exactly what YOU WANT without any snide behavior. I may actually make a appointment and hairdresser for the second time in my life, to get it dusted and trimmed.

Latte Lady
March 20th, 2013, 01:23 PM
Oh! Hot rollers! My mother uses hot rollers every Sunday for church. A huge eighties inspired hairdo. She loves huge eighties hair.

ravenreed
March 20th, 2013, 02:12 PM
Yah, I am extra sensitive to everything. Temperature, pain, you name it. I got the thinner soled ones and have been fine so far over gravel and climbing a volcanic outcropping. I was also wearing socks so that might have helped.


ravenreed...my husband has sensitive feet and nothing has ever helped. I think some of it is just neurological wiring or something. I was actually amazed he liked the VFF's, but he got the ones with the thickest soles.

ETA: She is probably split free because she trims regularly and keeps her hair rather short. If she tried to get much longer, I suspect she would run into troubles. However, as I said before, for the average person with average length hair or shorter, the modern methods are fine. Some will have such fragile hair that they need to find other methods, but they are in the minority. I got to waist length before finding LHC and I colored my hair red with a very damaging box dye every 6 weeks or so. I also wore it down every day. The only thing I didn't do was heat style. I got as far as waist before I was trimming of as much hair as I was growing to combat the split ends. However, I think if I were blow drying on hot every day or using a flat iron, I would have run into difficulty far sooner!


Strangely enough, I was watching my mother abuse her hair this morning at the hairdressers and was surprised at how nice her hair is.

She has bra strap length hair with a slight layering at the ends. It's rather thin and fine. She colors her hair at the hairdressers at a regular basis. She has a slight natural wave and blow drys and flat irons most day. She makes me cringe when she brushes her hair. She uses a TON of cones and products with icky ingredients. My mother has a "Dirty Day' but otherwise washes her hair every day.

She is split end free.

Her stylist checked her hair to see if it needed a micro trim or dusting and she couldn't find anything wrong and neither could I.

It baffles me that her delicate hair type can take so much abuse and punishment and be so utterly healthy without a hint of breakage! I'm going to raid her bathroom and find out what she uses!

Shout out for a hairdresser that gives micro trims and dusts. A hairdresser that gives her thoughts and opinions in a polite manner and then does exactly what YOU WANT without any snide behavior. I may actually make a appointment and hairdresser for the second time in my life, to get it dusted and trimmed.

nobeltonya
March 20th, 2013, 03:34 PM
Yep, everyone around here lately is so surprised at how long my hair is.. this one little girl was surprised when I responded to her question of why I grow my hair long by saying that I actually find it easier to manage and maintain than I did shorter hair.. I also saw this one episode of Tyra where there was this 23 year old girl who had like floor-length hair [although it'd never been trimmed so it was a mess] and they gave her the glam make-over, which included cutting it ALL off into this really short chin-length bob.. while she did look brand new and polished, if they'd given her ends a nice trim, they could have kept the length at like tailbone or classic.. it wasn't necessary to chop it all off.. at least in my area, more long-haired girls seem to be coming out of the wood-works. :) :disco:

Sascha888
March 20th, 2013, 05:14 PM
It's called Feye's self-trimming method, right here:
http://feyeselftrim.livejournal.com/


I can't get this site to come up, or it doesn't work :-(

embee
March 20th, 2013, 06:28 PM
Maybe you can try again - it sure worked for me just now. :)

YesitsReal
March 20th, 2013, 07:16 PM
Ok, other people's haircare rant on the way...

I was talking about hair with two girls at work today. The girl doing most of the talking happens to be the sister of a stylist. She is about 2-3 inches short of waist when her hair is straightened, which it was today. She was talking about how she really needed a haircut because of her velcro ends (my wording, her sentiment :)), but she wants to wait two weeks so she can gain some length before cutting. This is a person who colors her hair religiously once a month and who either straightens, curls, or teases her hair every single day. She had no idea why she couldn't gain length.
On top of that, she was telling the other girl (who has problems with thinning hair that actually won't grow and falls out all the time) that her sister's hair grows so much faster than hers because she is a hairdresser and has to manipulate, i.e. wash, blow-dry, straighten, curl, put up, take down, color, etc, etc, etc...and it really grows fast due to all the stimulation her follicles get. WHAT???

I was completely speechless. I didn't even know where to start. There was nothing I could say that wouldn't offend her, and nothing I could say to change her mind, so I didn't say anything. I just promised myself I'd rant about it on the LHC. lol. And yes, I do know that not all stylists believe this, I promise. :flower:

mz_butterfly
March 21st, 2013, 06:22 PM
I wish there was a "like" button!

ghost
March 21st, 2013, 06:49 PM
Ok, other people's haircare rant on the way...
On top of that, she was telling the other girl (who has problems with thinning hair that actually won't grow and falls out all the time) that her sister's hair grows so much faster than hers because she is a hairdresser and has to manipulate, i.e. wash, blow-dry, straighten, curl, put up, take down, color, etc, etc, etc...and it really grows fast due to all the stimulation her follicles get. WHAT???


That is just NUTS. I have no idea how anyone related to a hairdresser could believe that, unless maybe she hasn't discussed her theory with her sister. When I went to beauty school, we were taught that mild stimulation (scalp massage, basically) is good for your scalp and might be helpful for someone who was growing their hair, but that excessive styling and manipulation could be harmful and set your growth back.

WilfredAllen
March 24th, 2013, 04:13 PM
I've noticed that most women will only wear there hair in a ponytail or bun or down. Has anyone else noticed it? A big reason for me growing mine out was hating having to wear the same hairstyle, or one of three hair styles everyday

WaitingSoLong
March 24th, 2013, 05:56 PM
I see a lot of barrette styles and half ups, especially with the sideways french braids these days.

alexis917
March 24th, 2013, 06:21 PM
It seems like people never believe you can achieve things through natural methods.

If my hair is having an oddly good day and looks shiny,
someone might ask what I used.
They find the idea of oiling rather off-putting.

As for the diet industry:
I'm naturally thin, and people compliment me and ask what size I am- zero.
Then they ask if I'm dieting/eating/unhealthy/vegan/on a pill/fasting.
I have a fast metabolism- I'm a healthy teen- and people don't take me seriously, haha.

Sharysa
March 24th, 2013, 07:50 PM
With bleaching, the damage in general makes the hair shafts thinner. If it's uniform, you won't see the damage outright. But it's like what Syaoransbear said; I'll apply it to bleaching. If I wouldn't bleach my skin with man-made chemicals, why would I bleach my hair? Ew, what if people bleached and dyed their skin like they did hair?

Ironically enough, skin-bleaching is VERY common in Asia (especially South Asia) and Africa, where the "pale skin is beautiful" ideal is still very strong. Especially with actresses, since they're naturally in the public eye so often.

One of the creepiest things I've noticed when watching Filipino movies is that the actresses have literally PAPER-WHITE skin. I can barely tell them all apart. *lol, find the Asian stereotype*

And it's pretty damn hard to consider myself "Filipino(-American)" when most Filipino actresses don't even look like me.

chen bao jun
March 24th, 2013, 08:39 PM
Ironically enough, skin-bleaching is VERY common in Asia (especially South Asia) and Africa, where the "pale skin is beautiful" ideal is still very strong. Especially with actresses, since they're naturally in the public eye so often.

One of the creepiest things I've noticed when watching Filipino movies is that the actresses have literally PAPER-WHITE skin. I can barely tell them all apart. *lol, find the Asian stereotype*

And it's pretty damn hard to consider myself "Filipino(-American)" when most Filipino actresses don't even look like me.
Ethnic actresses are never representative of the general population that they are supposed to be portraying. I'm black but I'm very light because I'm multi-generational mixed. In real life, I don't see a lot of black women who are my complexion or anywhere close to it. I have stuck out all my life for this reason (something that is an asset half the time and a liability the other half. But whatever. It's not like I can help it so I don't worry about it). Yet when I turn on the television, all of the black actresses are my color, or very close. It's a definite skewing of reality. I have to wonder about the effects of this being shown as the normal way for black women to look and worse, as the only possible way to be black and 'attractive', on little girls who have what are really more typical looks and can't achieve very fair skin or green eyes naturally.
I think that its this media skewing that leads to things like skin bleaching, which yes, do exist. I have known, not a lot, but some people who did this. In my experience, though, they didn't get any lighter, but they did get damaged (sometimes extremely damaged) skin. It wasn't all that common here, however, even in the early sixties, before the 'black is beautiful' movement, when I remember people doing it. Thank goodness.
When I was in Taiwan 30 years ago, the girls wore very pale makeup and traded skin lightening recipes and the actresses and models were way lighter than the general population, but when I was in China 2 years ago I actually saw women with tans, so maybe this has changed. Although I don't think that tanning is much better than skin bleaching. It's also really very toxic though the general population refuses to believe this.

chen bao jun
March 24th, 2013, 08:45 PM
I know (and am related to) a lot of people of South Asian descent, there are a great many of them in a lot of the Caribbean countries.
The people in Bollywood movies are so much lighter than real South Asians that its beyond unbelievable. I suspect much the same thing is happening there as happens with people of African descent on US t.v. and in magazines-- people who are actually mixed race (mixed with Caucasian) being presented as if they had looks that were typical for the whole ethnic group.

Wildcat Diva
March 24th, 2013, 10:34 PM
I know (and am related to) a lot of people of South Asian descent, there are a great many of them in a lot of the Caribbean countries.
The people in Bollywood movies are so much lighter than real South Asians that its beyond unbelievable. I suspect much the same thing is happening there as happens with people of African descent on US t.v. and in magazines-- people who are actually mixed race (mixed with Caucasian) being presented as if they had looks that were typical for the whole ethnic group.

This is so interesting to me, because, my DH (American, and white) has a first cousin who is a bollywood actress/singer. Malaysia, she's half white. Let me find a link.

ETA: Seems she's a pretty successful Bollywood star, we don't talk to her, but she's my DH's uncle's daughter. 2012 movie star. Diana Danielle Beeson
http://www.hantugangster.com/cast-diana.html

NymphSpirit
March 25th, 2013, 01:38 AM
Hmmm apparently it's something that happens where people have more money to spend in general, in Argentina there is people with crazy media imposed hair care routines, but it's not the majority, and I've not been to Either Peru or Bolivia, but friends who did have told me their hair care routine is even simpler. But for example when I went to Brasil (said to be South America's United States) My friend and I were terribly shocked to see women with hair that was fried to death and back, much similar to what I saw when I went to the US. May be my insmonia is just making me create nonsensical conspiracy theories, but I do see a pattern.

Rosetta
March 25th, 2013, 02:32 AM
I don't think it's just American hair care, count European hair care in too. Lots of women go to salons here. It kind of goes without saying that your hair won't grow if you continually have your hairdresser cut off the growth. Don't quite get how with some people, this doesn't sink in. Almost funny!
So true. And what's more, going to hairdresser's regularly is in most people's minds considered the same as "taking care of your hair", so if you don't go to hairdresser's (like me), that means you don't really care about your hair... :rolleyes:

As someone (or several people) said earlier, it's all down to marketing and consumerism in today's Western world, unfortunately. They have brainwashed people in so many ways, of which this is just one small example.

WaitingSoLong
March 25th, 2013, 08:03 AM
Ethnic actresses are never representative of the general population that they are supposed to be portraying. I'm black but I'm very light because I'm multi-generational mixed. In real life, I don't see a lot of black women who are my complexion or anywhere close to it. I have stuck out all my life for this reason (something that is an asset half the time and a liability the other half. But whatever. It's not like I can help it so I don't worry about it). Yet when I turn on the television, all of the black actresses are my color, or very close. It's a definite skewing of reality. I have to wonder about the effects of this being shown as the normal way for black women to look and worse, as the only possible way to be black and 'attractive', on little girls who have what are really more typical looks and can't achieve very fair skin or green eyes naturally.
I think that its this media skewing that leads to things like skin bleaching, which yes, do exist. I have known, not a lot, but some people who did this. In my experience, though, they didn't get any lighter, but they did get damaged (sometimes extremely damaged) skin. It wasn't all that common here, however, even in the early sixties, before the 'black is beautiful' movement, when I remember people doing it. Thank goodness.
When I was in Taiwan 30 years ago, the girls wore very pale makeup and traded skin lightening recipes and the actresses and models were way lighter than the general population, but when I was in China 2 years ago I actually saw women with tans, so maybe this has changed. Although I don't think that tanning is much better than skin bleaching. It's also really very toxic though the general population refuses to believe this.

This is interesting to read...so many white people spend all their time trying to get darker??? Once again it is just not being happy with what you are given and feeling the need to change it.

leslissocool
March 25th, 2013, 12:28 PM
This is interesting to read...so many white people spend all their time trying to get darker??? Once again it is just not being happy with what you are given and feeling the need to change it.


YUP!!! :lol: purely ironic.

alexis917
March 25th, 2013, 02:14 PM
I'm half Asian, and really into Asian culture.
It really is true that whitening products are super-popular.
That said, my school is on the East coast and here, it seems like all the popular kids go tanning.
It's interesting to see the generation gap between some of the Asian girls,
because their mothers stick to the "traditional" ideal of beauty and stay rather pale,
but the daughters get really tanned.

Sharysa
March 26th, 2013, 10:56 AM
After I started going to college and realized that contrary to Mom's opinion that I'm "kind of dark" (my skintone is on the light end of brown, but I tan after a couple of hours in the sun and Mom happens to be very pale, so I look dark next to her), I find it a lot easier to not worry about my skintone when I'm around various ethnicities that are either my color or darker.

Going back to the original topic, though, white Americans are hardly the only people who put their hair through the wringer of styling. Lately it seems fashionable for Asians and Asian-Americans (especially Filipinos) to straighten their hair, dye it, and/or get highlights in it. Reasons range from "black hair is boring" to "I don't want to look too Asian."

I haven't encountered the latter personally, but Rowie mentioned that someone he knew actually said that.

TammyT
March 26th, 2013, 12:05 PM
I have a PhD in chemistry which doesn't mean much other than 1. i spent way too many years in school and 2. i do know the basics of doing research. I don't mind any marketing strategy a company can come up with because it is up to you to arm yourself with facts. HOWEVER, some things are very hard to get to the bottom of, and determine the hard facts about hair care/color are definitely one of them. For example. I have fine, thin fragile hair. Until the age of 20 I permed it. Then I started highlighting it. Two years ago I decided I wanted to grow it naturally but since I have a few grays my stylist recommended I use high lift color to add a few highlights. Initially I noted an improvement in my hair but after a while I realized the 'harmless' high lift color was breaking my hair big time. So, after all that I am now NO COLOR WHATSOEVER. I cannot seem to find "damage ratings" for hair (as someone mentioned earlier). How bad is blow drying on cool? How bad is bleach with heat, no heat? etc. etc. Its very frustrating to take years to learn this. At least I have figured it out and perhaps years from now my hair will be where I want it.

ravenreed
March 26th, 2013, 12:24 PM
YMMV. I keep saying this because it is true. No one can tell you how damaging something will be to your hair or how your hair will react to a new routine because everyone's hair is different. This can be chalked up to numerous factors- diet, ethnicity/genes, water hardness, humidity (or lack of it), hair care routines...You need to become the expert of your own hair care. Sorry there isn't a simpler answer!


I have a PhD in chemistry which doesn't mean much other than 1. i spent way too many years in school and 2. i do know the basics of doing research. I don't mind any marketing strategy a company can come up with because it is up to you to arm yourself with facts. HOWEVER, some things are very hard to get to the bottom of, and determine the hard facts about hair care/color are definitely one of them. For example. I have fine, thin fragile hair. Until the age of 20 I permed it. Then I started highlighting it. Two years ago I decided I wanted to grow it naturally but since I have a few grays my stylist recommended I use high lift color to add a few highlights. Initially I noted an improvement in my hair but after a while I realized the 'harmless' high lift color was breaking my hair big time. So, after all that I am now NO COLOR WHATSOEVER. I cannot seem to find "damage ratings" for hair (as someone mentioned earlier). How bad is blow drying on cool? How bad is bleach with heat, no heat? etc. etc. Its very frustrating to take years to learn this. At least I have figured it out and perhaps years from now my hair will be where I want it.

ibleedlipstick
March 27th, 2013, 12:14 AM
Idk that it is only the States, though. I was in Chile for a few months and everyone there washed/blow-dried their hair on a daily basis. My host mum thought it was odd that I didn't wash my hair daily (I told her it would make it too dry, which she understood.)

I'm kind of surprised by how judgmental this thread is though... some serious viciousness regarding any sort of "unnatural" hair treatments. I'm 21 and pretty grey, and I choose to dye it. Not because of societal pressure (everyone who has seen it natural thinks I should just let it go. Even my stylist thinks it's pretty) and not because I think it is great for my hair or don't understand what sort of damage it can do. I do it because I like the way my hair looks when it is its current color.

Someone mentioned upthread that our society doesn't place a value on hair. Why should it? It is just hair. I know that is kind of a bad thing to say around here, and I don't mean to offend, but really. It doesn't mean anything, and I don't put a whole lot of thought into someone else's hair. If you want to grow it out natural and down to your knees, great. If you want to shave half of it and straighten that which is left after dyeing it fourteen times in one day, go for it.

Society does place a value on physical appearance, and that comes with certain pressures. We get offended when outsiders say that it is gross to WO /CO/stretch washes, but aren't we just as bad when we judge people who don't abide by our same values?

didrash
March 27th, 2013, 02:38 AM
ibleedlipstick, I think the original idea is a bit different. You dye your hair and are aware that it is probably damaging, but make the choice to do it anyway - this is great, I too dye my hair, simply because I like it blue-black. I think that the OP was referring to people who do many damaging things to their hair and then wonder why it doesn't grow. We should definitely NOT be judgemental, I take it it's more about the disinformation these women are subjected to, so they cannot make an informed choice...

treasuretresses
June 18th, 2013, 07:27 AM
This is so true! You totally hit the nail on the head. Excellent insight.


America is the Land of Consumerism. You must keep buying, consuming, buying again, paying for services that will make you need to pay for more services... This cycle is super ingrained in our culture, and permeates every aspect of life, hair included. Resilient self-sufficiency is the enemy of capitalism. The only way to keep this kind of economy strong is to keep the people weak, so they think they need Help. But it's false help, designed to require more help. And more Things. Strength lies in ourselves, our communities, and in Nature, not in goods and services--but the capitalist machine doesn't want you to know that!

I'm so grateful to be a part of this international forum focused on creating resilient, community-supported self-sufficiency of hair care. May we spread this mindset far and wide.

chen bao jun
June 18th, 2013, 08:43 AM
I'm the OP and I'm not trying to be judgmental about people's choices. But I think few people get stuck in the American haircare cycle by choice. Most people may not want their hair to grow to their knees but they do want their hair to look pretty and be healthy and they do the things they do to it to achieve that end. It's sad that so many of the things they do have the opposite result, although sometimes it takes years for all the damage to show up. It's even sadder that then they do things that will make their hair MORE damaged in an attempt to hide/fix the damage. I really think the fact that so many women have very short haircuts after forty is partly do to social pressure and partly due to the fact that their hair has given in/given up. Some of them probably like the 'convenience' and that's fine, however, so many of the women I talk to are very unhappy with the state of their hair and are honestly wondering why they had healthy hair that grew long, if they chose to have it that way when they were young and now their hair 'won't grow.'. They attrbute this to age but as we on this forum know, sometimes that is true, and a lot of the time it ISN"T.
There's an important difference to me, between 'I like my hair short but I know it will grow if/when I want it to" and "I have my hair short because I have no choice anymore and I make the best of it because I'm stuck.'

chen bao jun
June 18th, 2013, 08:51 AM
Another one bit the dust--
As I mentioned on this forum before, many foreign girls come into my church from countries such as the Ukraine, various south American countries and the middle east (Turkey). Of course it's their choice, but its amazing how often they come in with tailbone or longer in beautiful condition and quickly start messing with their hair (and then get convinced that their hair won't grow long--even though it WAS long a year ago). There is one Ukrainian girl who held out for some time, and wanted to grow her hair long, and was using basically LHC methods to do (without knowing anything about LHC, she washed her hair gently, used no heat of any kind and kept it up almost all the time.). It grew from armpit to hip in two years, which was important to her, and in the orphanage where she came from, someone had cut it off without her permission. As I jsut said, she grew her hair to hip over two years--but last Sunday she came in with the ubiquitous brastap length layered cut that all the teenage girls have. It looks very nice and is flattering--but she also looks just like everybody else now, which makes me feel kind of sad, though its not my business AT ALL. Just mentioning here that I feel a little sad about it--when I talk to her, of course I will say that she looks lovely (which she does). and I do understand that teenaged urge to fit in and look exactly like everybody else--I'm actually surprised that she held out so long.
I'm sure it will grow back when she wants it to--this girl loves her hair and takes good care of it with good haircare knowledge.

phabieau
June 18th, 2013, 12:16 PM
This thread is interesting to me, especially as someone just out of high school in the last month. I live in America, and when I started to get older I started straightening and curling my hair... I would curl it not with my curling iron, but by TWISTING MY HAIR AROUND THE STRAIGHTENER and then pulling it through so hard I imagine I could feel it breaking off... And two years later I'm not sure if my ends need more babying or are still breaking from the heat damage they received. When they get trimmed off and I have virgin hair, then I can truly discover what routine works best for me.
Anyway, what I wanted to add was that most people are ignorant. My mom is happy with her layered shoulder length hair, her highlights, and has always been happy with them, but she seems to think I'm crazy. She thinks my hair looks gross when it needs to be washed; it's true it looks oily, but how is the natural appearance of hair with sebum starting to work in it "gross?" From a biological standpoint how does chemical dying improve the hair? It just doesn't make any sense to me.

And then there's the people my own age. A close friend cut her hair and the bob is adorable and really suits her face, and she loves it. However, her hair only was BSL and because it was so fine the ends were very thin and visibly damaged. And she never dyed it; all she did was blow dry and straighten it but she washed it every day, and her hair was naturally straight! I told her how many times that a tiny wurl by her face looked fine and didn't need to be straightened and she was damaging her hair, but she acted like I was crazy!

At least there is a girl with beautiful waist length blonde wavy blonde hair who doesn't wash every day, and wants to grow even longer. She is very protective of her hair and is working to hip or tailbone and it just inspires me to see someone openly ignore society.

People get by with their heat styles and products, but I wish they didn't disregard my oils and stretched washes. If it's been working for centuries, why do they think their consumerized products and tools are better? It makes me so sad.

Kome
June 18th, 2013, 12:21 PM
I find this slightly offensive. You make Americans sounds stupid, like they don't get why their hair isn't growing. That's just called ignorance and stupidity, not American. A lot of other cultures have long hair because of religious reasons or it's just what's popular there. Here, it's popular to have straight short boring hair. Some of it's cute, but it's not my thing. I prefer wavy flowy hair.

It's not any different than every girl thinking she needs to be stick thin. Stick thin and straight blonde hair. It's what the media portrays as perfect although we all know this is not the case. It's easy to give into what's accepted because it's hard to stand your ground and be different. I worked at a job where they told me I HAD to straighten my hair because it looked messy. It was just poofy and wavy. I had another lady at an interview tell me I looked like a hippie and they'd give me a makeover if I got hired (this was at Ulta). Pretty sad.

I do what I like with my hair. I've done long and natural most of my life, and then I've fried it to hell doing every color of the rainbow. I straightened it for awhile too. I've found what I prefer, although I honestly am often tempted to cut it all off and go short just because it's so hot where I am! But yeah. Sheep will be sheep!

Kome
June 18th, 2013, 12:23 PM
I'm the OP and I'm not trying to be judgmental about people's choices. But I think few people get stuck in the American haircare cycle by choice. Most people may not want their hair to grow to their knees but they do want their hair to look pretty and be healthy and they do the things they do to it to achieve that end. It's sad that so many of the things they do have the opposite result, although sometimes it takes years for all the damage to show up. It's even sadder that then they do things that will make their hair MORE damaged in an attempt to hide/fix the damage. I really think the fact that so many women have very short haircuts after forty is partly do to social pressure and partly due to the fact that their hair has given in/given up. Some of them probably like the 'convenience' and that's fine, however, so many of the women I talk to are very unhappy with the state of their hair and are honestly wondering why they had healthy hair that grew long, if they chose to have it that way when they were young and now their hair 'won't grow.'. They attrbute this to age but as we on this forum know, sometimes that is true, and a lot of the time it ISN"T.
There's an important difference to me, between 'I like my hair short but I know it will grow if/when I want it to" and "I have my hair short because I have no choice anymore and I make the best of it because I'm stuck.'

It's funny you say this because my mom is just over 50 and keeps her hair quite long. She isn't nice to it. She dyes and straightens it and I try and teach her otherwise, but she swears up and down her hair likes what she does. *eye roll* But I think it's cool that she keeps it so long. I should ask her if I could put a picture up of it! :)

chen bao jun
June 18th, 2013, 03:20 PM
Just re-read some old posts on this thread that I hadn't read before, about LHC and our attitude towards blow-drying and some other things.. Interesting.
Some sounded offended by the advice given to newcomers that blowdrying is harmful, that coconut oil is good, etc. because this advice is not true for everybody. NOTHING is true for everybody. People on LHC can't give personalized advice for everyone who come on here so there are general guidelines and I would assume people adjust them to themselves and their hair, especially after being on the site for a while and being more confident (and having better hair). I would bet that most people who come on here are NOT the genetically blessed who can do anything they want and still grow great-looking hair down to their feet. And a lot of people must come on here with damaged hair from years of abuse of various kinds (not just heat, but chemicals and rough handling and poor washing techniques and so on). I think its better to warn people that blow dryers are a problem for many and let them figure out later if they have the sort of hair that can take blowdrying on lower heat, with the dryer held far away. I don't agree that 'most' people's hair can take blowdrying, even though there are some whose hair can. There are a lot of us for whom it is not only a question of high heat, but mechanical damage when we use a blow dryer. I know as a curly, I get tangles from blow drying that are it's damaging to untangle, even if I use low heat or no heat. And I have coarse hair. Curlies with fine hair are even more affected.
I think LHC just tries to lay out the optimum, safest scenario that will help the most people be able to grow their hair to extreme lengths. there IS a bias on the site towards extreme lengths, classic and longer. Anybody who spends any time on the site can tell that, and adjust if they are not interested in hair longer than say, bra-strap. In which case you can do a lot of things that aren't recommended here (and then cut the damage off). But while there are people who are going to be able to anything and have knee length hair, the majority of people who want to aim towards that will in fact do best if they follow LHC suggestions (they are not rules, there is no force used here and I haven't heard of anyone thrown off the forum for admitting that they own a blowdryer). Because everyone can name at least once exception, who uses heat, dyes their hair, rips through it with a ball bristle brush, never uses protective updoes and still has beautiful tailbone length hair, and because some on this site ARE that exception, doesn't change the fact that the suggestions make a great deal of difference for the majority of people who chance to come upon this site--because they haven't been able to grow the long hair of their dreams up until this point.

Emichiee
June 18th, 2013, 03:48 PM
It is quite sad to think that all these women assume their hair can't grow when it isn't really true. There is still so much false information out there about hair.


All these people have access to the same information you and I do. They are making a choice for themselves. It isn't my business, and I don't really care. When people get tired of the grind, they will do something different. Until then, it isn't my concern.

Hm..but the way I understand it they can't make a good choice if they are not fully educated about how hair works. And many never stumble across a different view, simply because they have no reason to question what they are told by hair dressers and also because of lack of understanding.

jeanniet
June 18th, 2013, 03:51 PM
This is so interesting to me, because, my DH (American, and white) has a first cousin who is a bollywood actress/singer. Malaysia, she's half white. Let me find a link.

ETA: Seems she's a pretty successful Bollywood star, we don't talk to her, but she's my DH's uncle's daughter. 2012 movie star. Diana Danielle Beeson
http://www.hantugangster.com/cast-diana.html

She's lighter than I am, and I'm only half Indian! For that matter, she's lighter than my younger son, who's only a quarter Indian. From my general observations, though, Indians from the northern states are usually lighter skinned than those from the south. At least that seems to be true of all my relatives (we're from the Punjab). One of my parents' friends is fairly light, with gorgeous green eyes. But I don't know anyone who's as light as in the linked picture.

I don't think Americans are stupid about haircare, and it's really kind of unfair to use that phrasing. How many of us came here after years of wrecking our hair? If what you learn is the conventional wisdom and routines, even if it's damaging, that doesn't make you stupid. And if you're willing to make the trade-off of damage to get the hair you want, then go for it. The information to keep your hair healthy is out there if you decide that's what you want later.

jeanniet
June 18th, 2013, 03:57 PM
Just re-read some old posts on this thread that I hadn't read before, about LHC and our attitude towards blow-drying and some other things.. Interesting.
Some sounded offended by the advice given to newcomers that blowdrying is harmful, that coconut oil is good, etc. because this advice is not true for everybody. NOTHING is true for everybody. People on LHC can't give personalized advice for everyone who come on here so there are general guidelines and I would assume people adjust them to themselves and their hair, especially after being on the site for a while and being more confident (and having better hair). I would bet that most people who come on here are NOT the genetically blessed who can do anything they want and still grow great-looking hair down to their feet. And a lot of people must come on here with damaged hair from years of abuse of various kinds (not just heat, but chemicals and rough handling and poor washing techniques and so on). I think its better to warn people that blow dryers are a problem for many and let them figure out later if they have the sort of hair that can take blowdrying on lower heat, with the dryer held far away. I don't agree that 'most' people's hair can take blowdrying, even though there are some whose hair can. There are a lot of us for whom it is not only a question of high heat, but mechanical damage when we use a blow dryer. I know as a curly, I get tangles from blow drying that are it's damaging to untangle, even if I use low heat or no heat. And I have coarse hair. Curlies with fine hair are even more affected.
I think LHC just tries to lay out the optimum, safest scenario that will help the most people be able to grow their hair to extreme lengths. there IS a bias on the site towards extreme lengths, classic and longer. Anybody who spends any time on the site can tell that, and adjust if they are not interested in hair longer than say, bra-strap. In which case you can do a lot of things that aren't recommended here (and then cut the damage off). But while there are people who are going to be able to anything and have knee length hair, the majority of people who want to aim towards that will in fact do best if they follow LHC suggestions (they are not rules, there is no force used here and I haven't heard of anyone thrown off the forum for admitting that they own a blowdryer). Because everyone can name at least once exception, who uses heat, dyes their hair, rips through it with a ball bristle brush, never uses protective updoes and still has beautiful tailbone length hair, and because some on this site ARE that exception, doesn't change the fact that the suggestions make a great deal of difference for the majority of people who chance to come upon this site--because they haven't been able to grow the long hair of their dreams up until this point.

My hair probably isn't as curly as yours (3a), but I have to at least partially blow dry mine. I use a diffuser, though, and only dry about 50%. If don't, I actually get more tangles and a lot more frizz. It just takes too long to air dry, and I need to at least set the curls before I go out of the house. My hair's F/M.

leslissocool
June 18th, 2013, 04:05 PM
But it's not just health care, I've been digging around (other than being a fitness enthusiast and nutrition) skin care, and I've stumble across many articles about Asian Vs western (not just american) skin care and it's been really eye opening. Their idea of beauty is "the better your skin, the less make up you need" which can also be applied to hair Less damage, less styling and less things to put on to look shiny.

I've always been the odd one out around my friends from europe and in the US, doing actual skin care and not cosmetic care. Masks and natural brightening products and prevention. I have my reasons, I'm starting to believe I'm allergic to pigments used in foundations and concealers, so obviously if I need to look good without makeup I take care of my skin. Here, bad skin? Cover it with make up, use a gazillion products. Just like hair, we are being sold so much. But if you go to a non cosmetic isle at any store? 5 moisturizing night creams.

It's not just the US, but it's a lot more noticeable in the US.

chen bao jun
June 18th, 2013, 05:02 PM
I don't think Americans are stupid about haircare, and it's really kind of unfair to use that phrasing. How many of us came here after years of wrecking our hair? If what you learn is the conventional wisdom and routines, even if it's damaging, that doesn't make you stupid. And if you're willing to make the trade-off of damage to get the hair you want, then go for it. The information to keep your hair healthy is out there if you decide that's what you want later.
I don't think anyone said Americans were stupid about haircare. I think Kome was the only one who used the word 'stupid' and she just said that the thread made it sound as if Americans were stupid about haircare, not that Americans were stupid.
I think people have been saying that in the US, it's hard to make informed choices about haircare because of social pressure/advertising and some others have added that we aren't the only country where this is the case, which I am sure is true. I think all industrialized countries are basically the same about this nowadays.
It's a bit easier to make informed choices nowadays because of the internet and sites like LHC, which I am so grateful for. 13 years ago I stopped using chemical straightening in my hair but there was no information about what to do instead or how to care for it and for 12 years, until last year, I had no idea how to take of it and had a mess on my head that was natural, untouched by heat and chemicals, but it was still a damaged mess. And it was breaking off like crazy and I had no idea that it was breaking, I thought I was at terminal length and that it was normal to have short hair all over the bathroom, because I had always it. I thought that was what happened when you combed your hair. And I am not a stupid person, I have an MA from an Ivy League university. I know how to do research--but I didn't know I needed to do research because I thought my situation was normal. I think a lot of other women, also not at all dumb, do not know that rough hair and lots of breakage are not normal and do not know the signs of healthy hair.
Actually, I even thought my hair was 'long'. When I did use heat to straighten it, it was bra strap length and everyone around here calls that long. And its very thick. Even hairdressers always told me that my hair was healthy, because it's so thick. A lot of people don't know that their hair is damaged, I firmly believe, in the US, unless they are actually going bald, since dry, bleached or heat damaged hair is the norm here in many places, once you are past the teen years.

PeaceTeaRules
June 18th, 2013, 05:23 PM
Wow... I hadn't posted on this thread but I have read a majority of it and I think that yes, the healthier the skin and hair, the less product you need. Though some people don't think that way, unfortunately. I'm not saying that anyone on LHC is better than thou about hair but we have common sense...

I'm kind of ranting on this but I had just went to my counselor and she revealed her hair care routine... The only reason I talk about hair at all is that my family seems to think that it's gross that my hair looks greasy all the time... I don't think that it does... I mean the scalp may be iffy if I skip a "wash" but not too bad. But my counselor uses a clarifying shampoo every time, and I mean every time she washes her hair... And that's every day... :eek:

They want me to wash my hair and I don't really... Because It'll set me back a bit and might up my sebum production again, which I don't want. Sorry for the rant but we here in America really had been brainwashed. (or at least some of us anyway) To think that we need to keep the oil and sebum off of our hair when, it works as a conditioner and a great styling tool because it helps hold up-dos...

Sorry for the nonsensical rant but I'm practicing NW/SO if anyone was wondering... Oh how I wish I could time travel to Victorian England. I think my hair looks fine to me and I'm about to say screw society and looking presentable... But I can't stop listening to people's opinions...

Any advice on not being a sheep? Or listening to others opinions? Sorry to waste your time... :flowers:

jeanniet
June 19th, 2013, 02:00 AM
I don't think anyone said Americans were stupid about haircare. I think Kome was the only one who used the word 'stupid' and she just said that the thread made it sound as if Americans were stupid about haircare, not that Americans were stupid.
I think people have been saying that in the US, it's hard to make informed choices about haircare because of social pressure/advertising and some others have added that we aren't the only country where this is the case, which I am sure is true. I think all industrialized countries are basically the same about this nowadays.
It's a bit easier to make informed choices nowadays because of the internet and sites like LHC, which I am so grateful for. 13 years ago I stopped using chemical straightening in my hair but there was no information about what to do instead or how to care for it and for 12 years, until last year, I had no idea how to take of it and had a mess on my head that was natural, untouched by heat and chemicals, but it was still a damaged mess. And it was breaking off like crazy and I had no idea that it was breaking, I thought I was at terminal length and that it was normal to have short hair all over the bathroom, because I had always it. I thought that was what happened when you combed your hair. And I am not a stupid person, I have an MA from an Ivy League university. I know how to do research--but I didn't know I needed to do research because I thought my situation was normal. I think a lot of other women, also not at all dumb, do not know that rough hair and lots of breakage are not normal and do not know the signs of healthy hair.
Actually, I even thought my hair was 'long'. When I did use heat to straighten it, it was bra strap length and everyone around here calls that long. And its very thick. Even hairdressers always told me that my hair was healthy, because it's so thick. A lot of people don't know that their hair is damaged, I firmly believe, in the US, unless they are actually going bald, since dry, bleached or heat damaged hair is the norm here in many places, once you are past the teen years.

There is somewhat of an implication of cluelessness. I see it as a simple desire to adhere to the status quo, which really is pretty normal. People do what their friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc. are doing. I don't think education has anything to do with it, because even very educated people aren't necessarily knowledgeable outside their area of expertise. You have to have the desire to do something different.

Louise148
June 19th, 2013, 02:12 AM
I don't think education has anything to do with it, because even very educated people aren't necessarily knowledgeable outside their area of expertise.

Have to agree here. I work with academics many of whom have a brain the size of a planet but it is mostly taken up with their area of expertise and general common sense is not a given just because you have a phd, or two. :D

starlamelissa
June 19th, 2013, 06:37 AM
Peacetearules, I have been on lhc for three years, and the whole no water thing grosses ME out. Maybe your family is just not going to understand this. That's okay, my family doesn't get everything about me either.

HintOfMint
June 19th, 2013, 08:43 AM
A number of people have said that it's insulting to the intelligence of American women to say that they have been "brainwashed" into following certain edicts of mainstream haircare and then wondering why their hair isn't free from damage or growing longer.
I wouldn't call it brainwashing but I would say that social pressure with respect to hygiene and grooming is pretty powerful and if you're taught that there's a certain baseline minimum to be passable in society, you're going to follow it.
To a certain extent, it can be a good thing. For example, we can't really smell ourselves that well, so having a socially-agreed-upon agreement of how often one should bathe is a pretty good thing. I'd hate to tell a person that they're smelly, I'd rather they just know that one should shower at regular and frequent intervals.
For most of us, I would assume that we were taught our grooming/hygiene routines and we didn't go through the whole ground-up-question-everything-scientific-method to find what was right for us.
However, social norms at times can be a bad thing. The idea that curls are inherently messy and it gives off the impression that one is slovenly if she doesn't have straight smooth perfectly frizz free hair is a pretty terrible thing, for example.
But ultimately there are certain mainstream ideas of how people should look just to be presentable (some good some bad) and that's something that people aren't really going to question. It's not a matter of intelligence or lack thereof, or "being a sheep." Social norms concerning grooming aren't always questioned because many function as the gateway for just being acceptable in a public space, or even your job or profession.
I suppose an analogy is wearing a suit to an interview. Does it make a difference in my job if I don't wear a suit? No, I can show up wearing pajamas and do the same job and be the same person. But I'd rather have that job, so I wear the suit and probably won't question it. I'm not an unintelligent or unquestioning person because I followed a social/professional norm. It's just one thing I figured I didn't have to think about.

ravenreed
June 19th, 2013, 09:51 AM
I agree. Personal hygiene is a good thing. It is one of the reason folks are living longer and healthier lives. And I really do notice when someone's hair is greasy, whether it is up or not. I am sure I am not alone. I think the curl thing came about because curlies were brushing their curls out, which looks very different from curls cared for with the CG or other similar methods, IMO. But then again, I have always had curl envy.


A number of people have said that it's insulting to the intelligence of American women to say that they have been "brainwashed" into following certain edicts of mainstream haircare and then wondering why their hair isn't free from damage or growing longer.
I wouldn't call it brainwashing but I would say that social pressure with respect to hygiene and grooming is pretty powerful and if you're taught that there's a certain baseline minimum to be passable in society, you're going to follow it.
To a certain extent, it can be a good thing. For example, we can't really smell ourselves that well, so having a socially-agreed-upon agreement of how often one should bathe is a pretty good thing. I'd hate to tell a person that they're smelly, I'd rather they just know that one should shower at regular and frequent intervals.
For most of us, I would assume that we were taught our grooming/hygiene routines and we didn't go through the whole ground-up-question-everything-scientific-method to find what was right for us.
However, social norms at times can be a bad thing. The idea that curls are inherently messy and it gives off the impression that one is slovenly if she doesn't have straight smooth perfectly frizz free hair is a pretty terrible thing, for example.
But ultimately there are certain mainstream ideas of how people should look just to be presentable (some good some bad) and that's something that people aren't really going to question. It's not a matter of intelligence or lack thereof, or "being a sheep." Social norms concerning grooming aren't always questioned because many function as the gateway for just being acceptable in a public space, or even your job or profession.
I suppose an analogy is wearing a suit to an interview. Does it make a difference in my job if I don't wear a suit? No, I can show up wearing pajamas and do the same job and be the same person. But I'd rather have that job, so I wear the suit and probably won't question it. I'm not an unintelligent or unquestioning person because I followed a social/professional norm. It's just one thing I figured I didn't have to think about.

starlamelissa
June 19th, 2013, 10:02 AM
Good personal hygiene is very good! Yay soap! Yay deodorant! Yay shampoos! And while we're at it yay toilet paper and warm running water!!!

I like that when I go shopping I'm not smelling a whole bunch of nastiness ie,body odor and oily hair. Yuk. I am glad we have these norms of regular bathing. I could care less if you dress crazy, wear your hair in a unique way...but bathing is crucial.

leslissocool
June 19th, 2013, 10:10 AM
Meh I don't wash my hair a lot nor I think we need that much soap. After having a kid with eczema I've learned to use the minimum amount of soap and that you can use shampoo on your body and it doesn't dry her skin out as much as any soap.

I also think body odor and foul smell comes from your diet. If I eat a lot of processed foods i not only feel bad but my BO is very strong. When I don't, it's nonexistent.

I don't think you need to wash your hair that much (daily). I do use shampoo because I have scalp issues (psoriasis, so I hot oil and wash my scalp) and TBH I think that if you have scalp issues taking care of them gives you better results.

I don't take daily showers if I don't work out and sweat. I took a shower monday after weight lifting, no yesterday because it was a rest day, then I'll take one today after weight lifting again. I do think bottom line is you do need to shower though.

ravenreed
June 19th, 2013, 10:22 AM
Um, I hang out with a lot of vegans and folks who eat few processed foods, and they get stinky too.


Meh I don't wash my hair a lot nor I think we need that much soap. After having a kid with eczema I've learned to use the minimum amount of soap and that you can use shampoo on your body and it doesn't dry her skin out as much as any soap.

I also think body odor and foul smell comes from your diet. If I eat a lot of processed foods i not only feel bad but my BO is very strong. When I don't, it's nonexistent.

I don't think you need to wash your hair that much (daily). I do use shampoo because I have scalp issues (psoriasis, so I hot oil and wash my scalp) and TBH I think that if you have scalp issues taking care of them gives you better results.

I don't take daily showers if I don't work out and sweat. I took a shower monday after weight lifting, no yesterday because it was a rest day, then I'll take one today after weight lifting again. I do think bottom line is you do need to shower though.

leslissocool
June 19th, 2013, 10:27 AM
Um, I hang out with a lot of vegans and folks who eat few processed foods, and they get stinky too.

:shrug: I guess it's just me, but there are studies that say that fried food and processed foods induce body odor (as red meat) I'm talking 24 h no deodorant smell, obviously not a long period of no shower.

palaeoqueen
June 19th, 2013, 03:19 PM
:shrug: I guess it's just me, but there are studies that say that fried food and processed foods induce body odor (as red meat) I'm talking 24 h no deodorant smell, obviously not a long period of no shower.

I'm vegetarian and eat very little processed food, I still have to shower every morning though as I'm a warm sleeper and SMELL in the morning shudder:

However... if I do eat some types of fried/processed food I definitely notice a stronger smell to my sweat so it seems entirely likely that diet might affect an individual's base level of smelliness :lol: Just laughing a bit because the idea of measuring "smelliness" tickles me.

ravenreed
June 19th, 2013, 04:25 PM
Yep, it's a different odor, but it's there. I think it's similar to where babies who haven't eaten meat yet still have a scent to their poops, but when you add meat to their diet, the stinkiness changes and gets more intense.


I'm vegetarian and eat very little processed food, I still have to shower every morning though as I'm a warm sleeper and SMELL in the morning shudder:

However... if I do eat some types of fried/processed food I definitely notice a stronger smell to my sweat so it seems entirely likely that diet might affect an individual's base level of smelliness :lol: Just laughing a bit because the idea of measuring "smelliness" tickles me.

Mayflower
June 20th, 2013, 07:37 AM
Wow... I hadn't posted on this thread but I have read a majority of it and I think that yes, the healthier the skin and hair, the less product you need. Though some people don't think that way, unfortunately. I'm not saying that anyone on LHC is better than thou about hair but we have common sense...

I'm kind of ranting on this but I had just went to my counselor and she revealed her hair care routine... The only reason I talk about hair at all is that my family seems to think that it's gross that my hair looks greasy all the time... I don't think that it does... I mean the scalp may be iffy if I skip a "wash" but not too bad. But my counselor uses a clarifying shampoo every time, and I mean every time she washes her hair... And that's every day... :eek:

They want me to wash my hair and I don't really... Because It'll set me back a bit and might up my sebum production again, which I don't want. Sorry for the rant but we here in America really had been brainwashed. (or at least some of us anyway) To think that we need to keep the oil and sebum off of our hair when, it works as a conditioner and a great styling tool because it helps hold up-dos...

Sorry for the nonsensical rant but I'm practicing NW/SO if anyone was wondering... Oh how I wish I could time travel to Victorian England. I think my hair looks fine to me and I'm about to say screw society and looking presentable... But I can't stop listening to people's opinions...

Any advice on not being a sheep? Or listening to others opinions? Sorry to waste your time... :flowers:

I hope no one shoots me for this, but following basic hygiene "rules" (or routines) isn't a sign of being a sheep or being brainwashed, but common social decency. I'll be honest, I really don't like sitting next to someone with greasy hair on public transport. Even though you may think it's invisible or odorless, most of the time people can see and smell it, and it's not pleasant. Obviously I have no idea how your hair looks in real life and if it does look clean and smells nice, but to me washing ones hair is just as much a habit one does for others as for oneself.

I know there are people on this board that want to go NW/SO and they have to go weeks or even months walking around with disgustingly greasy hair (their statement, not mine), and unless it's because they have some kind of medical scalp condition that would really benefit from not washing your hair ever, I don't really see how you (general you) could walk around looking like a grease ball for months. I sometimes go an extra day or two without washing my hair, wearing it in a bun and not leaving the house, and I feel bad for my housemates having to look at me. :lol:

starlamelissa
June 20th, 2013, 07:47 AM
Ditto mayflower. Ditto.

Really, no one is saying you have to coat yourself in chemical laden products and perfumes. Just bathing regularly is sufficient.

chen bao jun
June 20th, 2013, 08:19 AM
I'm with Mayflower. Sensible post.
I don't know anybody who SO or WO so I'm not blasting them--maybe they have a way for their hair not to smell bad? I don't know.
I don't think being a vegetarian makes you avoid BO. In my opinion, people are made to eat meat as well as vegetables, as our teeth show. However, if you want to be a vegetarian, that's your choice. Just be sure you get enough protein, which is possible, but more difficult. I do notice that in historically vegetarian countries such as India people have a lower life expectancy and the health of the poorer people is terrible. So be sure you take care of your health.
It strikes me that a lot of people hanging out together doing the same thing can not notice a problem. If you are not drunk and meet up with a bunch of drunk people, they strike you as smelling liquory and acting silly, while if you are drunk with them, you don't notice. If you are hanging out with a bunch of people who don't bathe and you all stink together, you probably get immune to the smell. But other people will notice, who are not part of the group.
However, you don't actually have to bathe or shower every single day to not smell. In winter, or when not exercising, you can shower one day and the next day use a washcloth and some water and wash your private parts and your armpits and put on deodorant and be fine, at least in colder climates. One person mentioned having a child with eczema. I had a child with severe eczema also and people like that, you truly cannot wet them with water every day. You can use Cetaphil, or oil cleansing. Oil cleansing is actually interesting in general--it helps a lot with all kinds of bad skin. But anyway, just as many people find they actually do not have wash their hair daily and it does better when washed every 3 to 5 days or even weekly, many people do not have wet their whole body every single day. But I don't think that 'you might wash your hair too much if you're washing it every day' means ' never wash your hair. But I repeat, I don't know any SO or WO people so I may be wrong here.

neko_kawaii
June 20th, 2013, 08:51 AM
Ditto mayflower. Ditto.

Really, no one is saying you have to coat yourself in chemical laden products and perfumes. Just bathing regularly is sufficient.

Unfortunately there are people who do think you have to coat yourself in perfumes to satisfy the demands of "hygiene". Maybe someday you will use the wrong products and not smell flowery enough for them and they will decide they have to teach you a lesson in "hygiene". I hope that never happens to you, I sincerely do, so you will have to take my word for it that there are people out there who are brainwashed into thinking that hygiene equals smelling like perfume.

And if I can smell YOUR fragrance from 10 ft I'm not going to hang around because I'd like to avoid using an inhailer today, thanks. I will get off the bus and catch the next one. BO might not be pleasant, but it doesn't threaten my health.

If you do manual labor and swear all day you are going to stink at the end of the day. You might not have the luxury of taking a private car directly home. Or, you might be at the mercy of another driver who decides we are going to stop somewhere on the way home. My boyfriend took me to a movie on the way home from a week of out of town work, so not only was I stinky from a days work but I'd been wearing the same pants and over shirt for a week. He made up for it by proposing in the parking lot afterwards, and we laughed about it. If a crowd of stinky men pile into the taco shop at the end of the day you'll just think they work hard. But you look differently at the girl, cause girls should never work so hard they stink or there is magical deodorant for girls that can override a days worth of sweat. I know, there are showers for the girls on the job site so that they can leave looking as lily fresh as they arrived that morning.

Hygiene is washing your hands before you handle food and after you use the toilet. Hygiene is washing your body when needed, and need varies greatly by season and activity. Hygiene is NOT the elimination of all human odor.

palaeoqueen
June 20th, 2013, 10:05 AM
However, you don't actually have to bathe or shower every single day to not smell. In winter, or when not exercising, you can shower one day and the next day use a washcloth and some water and wash your private parts and your armpits and put on deodorant and be fine, at least in colder climates.

Sorry for getting a bit off topic but this isn't true for everyone. I live in a cool climate and *have* to shower every morning. I overheat easily in my sleep and almost always smell sweaty in the morning, a wash over the sink doesn't get rid of it. If I can smell myself then other people will and there's no way I'm subjecting my colleagues to that.

PeaceTeaRules
June 20th, 2013, 11:39 AM
Good points guys, I guess one should follow proper social etiquette. I had never thought of that unfortunately... I guess I had been brainwashed by LHC in a sense. Not to bash the boards in general; though it was my own fault actually. I wanted to try something different and come to find out that it isn't working very well. Let me ask this then, is washing one's hair once a week sufficient? :confused:

Lunadriael
June 20th, 2013, 12:12 PM
Honestly I think it depends on the person. Some people stink more than others, some need to wash more than others, some find that chemicals or processed foods make them stink and otherwise they don't smell, whereas others just naturally smell more.

Not really sure why someone having hair that looks a little bit greasy is so offensive to anyone though. It's very rare that it outright stinks and assuming a person is dirty because of it is you making a judgement without knowing their particular circumstances. You don't know by looking whether they wash a lot or not, whether they have a health issue or not. Those with a dry scalp might wash once a month and look totally fine, whereas others with sebum production problems might wash everyday yet still look bad. Without knowing a person intimately you just don't know, so why take offence about it? A little more tolerance makes things nicer for everyone.

ravenreed
June 20th, 2013, 01:08 PM
Hair, like any other part of the body, collects bacteria, dander, pollen, pollutants, etc. I wouldn't wear the same clothing every day for a month without washing it, whether it looked (or smelled) dirty or not. I certainly wouldn't let my hair go a month without washing it. And if my clothing looks dirty, I wash it right away. The same goes for my hair. Health issues are a different matter. However, I refuse to add to the long hair = dirty hair stereotype.

ETA: Look at it this way. Have you ever seen the hatband of a hat that gets worn every day? Or seen the dreaded "ring around the collar?" Both of those brown stains occur because of body oils, which attract and trap dirt. Your hair is the same if it is greasy. It may not be dirty per se, but it is more likely to trap any dirt that falls on it.


Honestly I think it depends on the person. Some people stink more than others, some need to wash more than others, some find that chemicals or processed foods make them stink and otherwise they don't smell, whereas others just naturally smell more.

Not really sure why someone having hair that looks a little bit greasy is so offensive to anyone though. It's very rare that it outright stinks and assuming a person is dirty because of it is you making a judgement without knowing their particular circumstances. You don't know by looking whether they wash a lot or not, whether they have a health issue or not. Those with a dry scalp might wash once a month and look totally fine, whereas others with sebum production problems might wash everyday yet still look bad. Without knowing a person intimately you just don't know, so why take offence about it? A little more tolerance makes things nicer for everyone.

PeaceTeaRules
June 20th, 2013, 01:31 PM
Thanks guys!! Sorry to hijack the thread. :D I'll be going now then. :flower:

Lunadriael
June 20th, 2013, 04:15 PM
Hair, like any other part of the body, collects bacteria, dander, pollen, pollutants, etc. I wouldn't wear the same clothing every day for a month without washing it, whether it looked (or smelled) dirty or not. I certainly wouldn't let my hair go a month without washing it. And if my clothing looks dirty, I wash it right away. The same goes for my hair. Health issues are a different matter. However, I refuse to add to the long hair = dirty hair stereotype.

ETA: Look at it this way. Have you ever seen the hatband of a hat that gets worn every day? Or seen the dreaded "ring around the collar?" Both of those brown stains occur because of body oils, which attract and trap dirt. Your hair is the same if it is greasy. It may not be dirty per se, but it is more likely to trap any dirt that falls on it.

I'm not suggesting people should not wash their hair if they want to or if it's dirty. What I am saying is you cannot necessarily tell by looking at the condition of someone's hair (apart from perhaps in very extreme cases), how long ago that person has actually washed. Also, quite a few people on here stretch washes, that doesn't make them all dirty. Back in the day before shampoo the recommended amount of time between hair washings was a lot longer. It's the same concept as the one that people don't need to douche, because that's naturally a clean area and doing so actually upsets your natural bacteria. Over cleansing is not always a good thing.

Rings of grease or grime I wouldn't like either, but I don't think slightly unwashed hair is always dirty hair. That is not to say that it is always clean hair, and I stand by my original comment that individuals and situations differ. I am not a person who stretches washes a large amount of time, nor am I advocating that people should do that. I just don't see why someone who doesn't smell and who people don't have to be close to would affect others so much. Apart from in extreme cases it's unlikely to affect you at all, so there's no reason to get het up about it. A small amount of grease and dirt every now and then never harmed anyone. :flower:

leslissocool
June 20th, 2013, 04:37 PM
I'm vegetarian and eat very little processed food, I still have to shower every morning though as I'm a warm sleeper and SMELL in the morning shudder:

However... if I do eat some types of fried/processed food I definitely notice a stronger smell to my sweat so it seems entirely likely that diet might affect an individual's base level of smelliness :lol: Just laughing a bit because the idea of measuring "smelliness" tickles me.


LOL you are like my son and stepson! They are sweaty sleepers, they wake up covered in sweat :bigeyes: My little boy's long hair drenched and all. However, he's a kid and doesn't smell, the poor teen does though :lol:.

I'm with lunadriel though, it really depends. I worked in costumer service and no one ever complained on my week long wash stretch, mostly because it didn't smell :shrug:. Not everyone else is this way, but I can say that I don't smell nearly as much as most people do and when I do eat certain things it shows (dramatically). I'm not vegetarian but I was for a long time and I do notice, just like when I eat Kimchi I smell because of the type of food.

Plus I have to agree with Nekko too, I don't know someone's situation. My daughter with Eczema showed me that you do not need soaps to wash your body, that gentle shampoos will do it. This are kids that have no fungal issues of any kind, neither do I, not even on my scalp. I've had one yeast infection in my life. Could that be genetic? Absolutely! I also don't eat sugar and things that are shown to cause it. When my kids came home, everyone washed their hands and I disinfected counters and doorknobs and all that and they didn't get sick mostly because one sickness could have killed them (they were very small and had synagis shots) yet the doctors told me to bathe them ever 2 days (not every day). As they grew and I started to bathe regularly I notice my daughter's skin start to blister and dry out. Instead of using cortisone creams, I'd rather bathe her with water and VERY little shampoo, I even moved away from the heat and hers skin completely healed. She obviously is not going to fit society's standards, but does that mean she's dirty? Does that me *I* am dirty because I don't bathe every day? Not at all. I don't even have athlete's foot, never had. I'm obviously hygienic enough. Honestly I happen to think people with fungal infections are disgusting, and that's something that I avoid. But that becomes an opinion, you can think I'm dirty if you want and honestly I won't mind at all if you stay away from me ;).

Now my son and stepson? I had to put a limit on my child of how many times he could bathe because he's OCD about cleaning (his toys, his clothes, his body) and my stepson showers in the mornings too, because he stinks.


What really bothers me is flower perfume scents, and DH is allergic to them, yet he uses oils and bathes every day and he got told he stinks because he doesn't smell like axe, but as sandalwood. Now how messed up is that?!

Mayflower
June 21st, 2013, 07:12 AM
I'm not suggesting people should not wash their hair if they want to or if it's dirty. What I am saying is you cannot necessarily tell by looking at the condition of someone's hair (apart from perhaps in very extreme cases), how long ago that person has actually washed. Also, quite a few people on here stretch washes, that doesn't make them all dirty. Back in the day before shampoo the recommended amount of time between hair washings was a lot longer. It's the same concept as the one that people don't need to douche, because that's naturally a clean area and doing so actually upsets your natural bacteria. Over cleansing is not always a good thing.

Rings of grease or grime I wouldn't like either, but I don't think slightly unwashed hair is always dirty hair. That is not to say that it is always clean hair, and I stand by my original comment that individuals and situations differ. I am not a person who stretches washes a large amount of time, nor am I advocating that people should do that. I just don't see why someone who doesn't smell and who people don't have to be close to would affect others so much. Apart from in extreme cases it's unlikely to affect you at all, so there's no reason to get het up about it. A small amount of grease and dirt every now and then never harmed anyone. :flower:

I think most of us (at least I was) were talking about not washing hair for weeks. I just don't believe that water and/or 'spreading the sebum' really cleans one's hair. Some NW/SO people use things like scented oils, but that's just covering up the smell. And like someone stated before, you can't really smell yourself as well as other people can.
Stretching washes is totally okay and something I do too, and having half an inch of slightly greasy hair won't smell or offend anyone I'm sure. But there have been times that I literally got sick to my stomach and had to breathe through my mouth because someone (totally average looking -I'm not bashing on homeless people) went to sit next or in front of me. And I'm too polite of a person to go sit somewhere else. :p

I for one am certainly glad the days of not washing (hair) for weeks are over!

starlamelissa
June 21st, 2013, 07:15 AM
Let me ask this then, is washing one's hair once a week sufficient? :confused:

I would need to rinse my hair in between, my hair gets dirtier faster than that. I wash my hair and my body 3 times a week. But frequency of hair washing is pretty unique to each person. I would wash as often as you need it.

starlamelissa
June 21st, 2013, 07:25 AM
Lesissocool, I don't use much soap on my kids either, they have sensitive skin, and allergies. I fill the tub with barely warm water and a little baby oil. I wash my kids hair with tear free kids body and hair wash. Just a pea size for there little heads. Or i fill an empty shampoo bottle with warm water and do a "water wash" on there heads.Then I wash whatever is visibly dirty, feet,Hands, butts, with a small amount of their body wash/shampoo. I rinse them thoroughly with fresh water from the shower head.

So no big foamy lathers, scrubbing them to a supreme clean around here.

starlamelissa
June 21st, 2013, 07:37 AM
And if I can smell YOUR fragrance from 10 ft I'm not going to hang around because I'd like to avoid using an inhailer today, thanks. I will get off the bus and catch the next one. BO might not be pleasant, but it doesn't threaten my health.

I agree! I have asthma and I struggle with smells. I can't deal with heavily applied fragrance, strong tide smells on clothes, bleach ( although I do use it in my toilets). I think it's inconsiderate to be heavily scented, especially on public transportation.

We are working class people here, manual labor is all we know.(I was a waitress/short order cook) my husband is an appliance repair man. Before that he worked in a foundry, and before that he cut meat. The smell of a normally washed person who has worked all day differs from a person who habitually does not bathe.

ravenreed
June 21st, 2013, 08:57 AM
I am just as allergic to Sandalwood as I am to Axe. I understand about the skin issues, because my own son got eczema from normal soaps. I was able to find one that worked for him, Dr. Bronners, and as he has gotten older, this is no longer a problem for him. FWIW, I don't wash my hair every day, but I normally bathe every day. I feel more comfortable when I do.


LOL you are like my son and stepson! They are sweaty sleepers, they wake up covered in sweat :bigeyes: My little boy's long hair drenched and all. However, he's a kid and doesn't smell, the poor teen does though :lol:.

I'm with lunadriel though, it really depends. I worked in costumer service and no one ever complained on my week long wash stretch, mostly because it didn't smell :shrug:. Not everyone else is this way, but I can say that I don't smell nearly as much as most people do and when I do eat certain things it shows (dramatically). I'm not vegetarian but I was for a long time and I do notice, just like when I eat Kimchi I smell because of the type of food.

Plus I have to agree with Nekko too, I don't know someone's situation. My daughter with Eczema showed me that you do not need soaps to wash your body, that gentle shampoos will do it. This are kids that have no fungal issues of any kind, neither do I, not even on my scalp. I've had one yeast infection in my life. Could that be genetic? Absolutely! I also don't eat sugar and things that are shown to cause it. When my kids came home, everyone washed their hands and I disinfected counters and doorknobs and all that and they didn't get sick mostly because one sickness could have killed them (they were very small and had synagis shots) yet the doctors told me to bathe them ever 2 days (not every day). As they grew and I started to bathe regularly I notice my daughter's skin start to blister and dry out. Instead of using cortisone creams, I'd rather bathe her with water and VERY little shampoo, I even moved away from the heat and hers skin completely healed. She obviously is not going to fit society's standards, but does that mean she's dirty? Does that me *I* am dirty because I don't bathe every day? Not at all. I don't even have athlete's foot, never had. I'm obviously hygienic enough. Honestly I happen to think people with fungal infections are disgusting, and that's something that I avoid. But that becomes an opinion, you can think I'm dirty if you want and honestly I won't mind at all if you stay away from me ;).

Now my son and stepson? I had to put a limit on my child of how many times he could bathe because he's OCD about cleaning (his toys, his clothes, his body) and my stepson showers in the mornings too, because he stinks.


What really bothers me is flower perfume scents, and DH is allergic to them, yet he uses oils and bathes every day and he got told he stinks because he doesn't smell like axe, but as sandalwood. Now how messed up is that?!

prettyhairisred
June 22nd, 2013, 10:51 AM
It's mostly because of companies. They need to sell their products so they make hair dressers recommend things, and they have ads telling you what's wrong with your hair, or why not change it up , everyone's doing it!.
Actors and singers all do these things to their hair, while having a different style each week but then wear extensions to give false length. So people don't understand that these things will prevent growth or are bad

ravenreed
June 22nd, 2013, 12:11 PM
But that's the thing, not everything does as much damage as the long-hair-hive-mind would have you believe, depending on your hair goals. If the goal is BSL length or shorter hair, shampoos and conditioner every day, blow drying, even dyeing are fine for most people I know. Not many people want longer hair than that. It is only when you add a lot of straightening, curling, perming, or attempting to grow to longer lengths that people have trouble. I have a fine haired friend who has gotten highlights, blow dried, and S & C all the time, and made it to nearly waist before she had to go through chemo... and her hair is what I call Angel Hair because it is the finest I have ever seen. I got to waist easily doing everything 'wrong.' I have other friends who are the same way. Sure it might take a little longer, but honestly, if everyone's hair was THAT delicate, we would all be bald or have pixy cuts.


It's mostly because of companies. They need to sell their products so they make hair dressers recommend things, and they have ads telling you what's wrong with your hair, or why not change it up , everyone's doing it!.
Actors and singers all do these things to their hair, while having a different style each week but then wear extensions to give false length. So people don't understand that these things will prevent growth or are bad