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Alcenaia
February 14th, 2013, 08:51 AM
Over the last year I've been under a lot of stress (change in uni, cross-country move) and my hair hasn't grown at all. :( I decided to switch up my routine to see if I could coax anything out of my scalp. In August I began WO. Current things that are going well: body, thickness, manageability, texture, minimal split ends. Not so well: ends (dryness/buildup, I can't tell), dandruff, no growth/shedding. With the improvement in my hair I saw going WO, and the amount of time it takes to 'start' WO, I am hesitant to try much of anything else. Maybe it's time though...I am open to recommendations, dear LHC.

Out of the blue the other day, my mother sent me a long and extraordinarily rude text message about not washing my hair like a 'normal person'. She has always been supportive of my desire for long hair and my non-standard styles/choices etc, but I think this is where she drew the line. She said that my hair is going to harbor bacteria and pathogens, and smell disgusting.

I have tried, unsuccessfully, to find science on either side of the issue, and I'd really like to be informed. Is there some truth to her (unfortunately hurtful) statement? Is there a study or article I could show her to gently educate her that I am not turning into some cavewoman? A date told me, unprompted and unaware of my disuse of products on my hair, that my hair smelled good. So I think I am doing ok at managing any possible odors. I don't know about bacteria though...ew!

renia22
February 14th, 2013, 11:06 AM
Alcenaia- Here's an article that you may find helpful:

http://health.howstuffworks.com/skin-care/scalp-care/tips/how-often-wash-hair.htm

I've also read before that the oils on your scalp can go rancid, but I can't recall know where I read that (I think it was in regards to CO washing & suggesting still to shampoo occasionally to get rid of the bacteria)

swearnsue
February 14th, 2013, 11:09 AM
Just my 2 cents worth, your mother is jealous of your beautiful hair. I know it's hard to believe but some mothers aren't the all-giving saints we wish they were.

It's your hair so try not to care too much about what she thinks. If you can, I know it's hard though.

Chromis
February 14th, 2013, 11:15 AM
Why does your mother know how you are washing your hair in the first place?

I find it is best not to talk too much about ones hobbies with muggles, be it hair or the details of whatever I am spinning or knitting. I don't talk about my hair at all to my family.

Othala
February 14th, 2013, 11:25 AM
My two-penneth: I don't think your mother is jealous as she has been supportive about your long hair. I think she is concerned about your health, hygiene, smells and social norms. I do not think she should have been rude, but on the basis of what you have written, I think she is just being a typical, concerned mother.

As you say, you have dandruff and I would be concerned if my daughter was going WO if she had dandruff.

I have been NW and WO so I am not conforming to some prejudice about these things with no experience of them. I stopped because my scalp and hair got filthy dirty and I started getting tender-headed and then painful pimples when the hair follicles started getting blocked up. My ends were dry and split and my roots were greasy as hell. If it works for you, great, but if your mother had seen my hair after one month of WO, it would have justified her fears.

I hope WO works for you and if it does, I think your mother will be reassured.

Vanille_
February 14th, 2013, 11:27 AM
Well.. I know for a fact that my head smells bad after about a day or two. I use a bit of scented dry shampoo on day two or three if DH complains or if I go out. DH rarely complains, but that's probably because he's learned to not put his face in my hair by now. (he is taller than me, so when we hug, my head is right below him).

Vrindi
February 14th, 2013, 11:36 AM
Why does your mother know how you are washing your hair in the first place?

I find it is best not to talk too much about ones hobbies with muggles, be it hair or the details of whatever I am spinning or knitting. I don't talk about my hair at all to my family.

I love this.

Unfortunately, my mother reacted the same way after seeming "supportive" in nearly every aspect of my life. It would come out of nowhere, after I'd gotten comfortable with her, she'd blow up and let out all these horrible judgements and what she really thought that had apparently just been simmering. Now, I talk to her about the weather and very, very safe topics. It's the only way to continue to have a relationship with her.

Your situation might only extend to your hair care, but it might be a good idea to consider leaving her out of it, until or unless she is asking for your advice on hair care and seriously coming to you for help.

If a date is complimenting how your hair smells, then it is obvious that you are taking care of your hair. You're just not doing it the same way society says is ok, but society can take a leap.

jeanniet
February 14th, 2013, 11:41 AM
Why does your mother know how you are washing your hair in the first place?

I find it is best not to talk too much about ones hobbies with muggles, be it hair or the details of whatever I am spinning or knitting. I don't talk about my hair at all to my family.

This. You don't have to share everything with your mother. However, since she already knows, you can do one of three things:

1) Go to the trouble of researching why WO isn't bad for your head, and hope that convinces your mother;
2) Tell her you appreciate her concern, but you know what you're doing, and then ignore any further admonitions;
3) Fib, and tell her you went back to using shampoo.

I'm the mother of a college-aged son. He's my baby, and always will be, and believe me, I would love to know everything about what's going on in his life. But he's a grown man, and he doesn't have to tell me anything he doesn't want to, and that includes how he washes his hair. Your mom doesn't need to know either, and since she does know and doesn't approve, she really should just bite her tongue. Part of being a mom is knowing when to speak and when to just be quiet. :)

GrowingGlory
February 14th, 2013, 11:45 AM
I think that her text message was rude and uncalled for. I'd just refrain from discussing my hair with her, and bring her up short with a request that she mind her own business if she interferes any further.

lapushka
February 14th, 2013, 11:53 AM
I don't think my mother would understand WO either. It's "normal" for people to wash, wash their body, wash their hair, and when you suddenly start a routine where there's no washing involved, you have to understand it can gross people out. I'd just not discuss it with her. Next time just say you are washing your hair, even if you are WO.

catamonica
February 14th, 2013, 11:57 AM
I have used horse shampoo. It grew fourteen inches to waist after years of no growth since high school. I added two capfuls of olive oil to the shampoo. That might have helped growth. I use a spray bottle with water & two capfuls of olive oil. Wait four minutes then shampoo. It helps the dryness. I also add two capfuls to my shampoo & conditioner. And extra on the ends. I only wash my hair once a week. Sometimes I do as scalp wash. My hair isn't dirty. I wear my hair in a braided bun four days a week. By March 2011 my hair grew from waist to hip. My ends are not split. It grew to one inch above tail bone. It helps to wear it up. I hope you try the shampoo. It's called Original mane & tail horse shampoo.

catamonica
February 14th, 2013, 11:59 AM
I forgot to mention you can buy it at Wall Mart in the pet section of the store or grocery stores. Or order it online.

Carolyn
February 14th, 2013, 12:19 PM
I would like to resoundingly support the advice you have already gotten about not discussing your hair care routine with your mother. No, she is not jealous. She is just being a concerned mother. I'm sure she believes she is just giving you motherly advice. Of course she doesn't want you to smell bad to other people. The only way you can know whether you will smell bad or not is to give WO a good try. You may like it and you may not. No big deal either way but you will have learned for yourself what works for you. If she asks you about how you are cleansing your hair you can honestly tell her you ARE washing it. If you want to fib about using shampoo then do it. It's not a big deal to tell a few white lies. But whatever you do don't bring up the subject. If she brings it up give her a short and sweet answer and change the subject.

MsBubbles
February 14th, 2013, 12:34 PM
What Carolyn said! :agree::thumbsup:

spidermom
February 14th, 2013, 01:12 PM
Agree that your mother doesn't have to know your hair care routine.

You do know that you still have to clean your scalp through mechanical means? You can't let the gunk build up; it will have negative consequences. I'm not up for all the work of massaging, preening, etc, so I'd rather stick to diluted shampoo washes.

ghost
February 14th, 2013, 02:08 PM
It's a shame that your mom was so rude about it, but WO is one of those things that civilians have a difficult time understanding.
Maybe let her know that her text hurt your feelings, and that from now on you're not interested in talking about your hair care routine?
Then just keep on keeping on. If she asks about it, just say you're washing your hair, no need to tell her what you are or aren't washing it with.

bunnylake
February 14th, 2013, 02:58 PM
I actually would like to know what the science is behind WO or sebum-only routines also. It's my understanding that in order for skin and scalp to be healthy it must be clean. I think your mother just doesn't understand this type of no-washing routine. I have to admit, I don't really either. :/

Mesmerise
February 14th, 2013, 03:07 PM
Why does your mother know how you are washing your hair in the first place?

I find it is best not to talk too much about ones hobbies with muggles, be it hair or the details of whatever I am spinning or knitting. I don't talk about my hair at all to my family.

Yup, this. I would never discuss my hair routines with my mother ;) and if I was WO, I'd probably only reserve my discussion about my hair for LHC simply because the vast, vast majority if people WILL NOT GET IT. (As it is I enjoy washing my hair, so won't go WO, but I'm accepting of it).

Hair is not DESIGNED to be washed with shampoo. That's really the point of WO, to be as natural as nature intended, right? Back in the mists of human existence, there was no shampoo... and people just... left their hair!!! Sure there will be some bacteria, but there is bacteria on washed hair. Not ALL bacteria is deleterious to human life. I doubt your hair will start harbouring some evil pathogens!!

anitacs9101
February 14th, 2013, 03:46 PM
Alcenaia- Here's an article that you may find helpful:

http://health.howstuffworks.com/skin-care/scalp-care/tips/how-often-wash-hair.htm

I've also read before that the oils on your scalp can go rancid, but I can't recall know where I read that (I think it was in regards to CO washing & suggesting still to shampoo occasionally to get rid of the bacteria)

Thanks for sharing, I liked that article.


Why does your mother know how you are washing your hair in the first place?

I find it is best not to talk too much about ones hobbies with muggles, be it hair or the details of whatever I am spinning or knitting. I don't talk about my hair at all to my family.

This. I've tried talking to my family and friends about hair-related topics, they just don't get it. I just keep my mouth shut and they don't make any rude comments.


I would like to resoundingly support the advice you have already gotten about not discussing your hair care routine with your mother. No, she is not jealous. She is just being a concerned mother. I'm sure she believes she is just giving you motherly advice. Of course she doesn't want you to smell bad to other people. The only way you can know whether you will smell bad or not is to give WO a good try. You may like it and you may not. No big deal either way but you will have learned for yourself what works for you. If she asks you about how you are cleansing your hair you can honestly tell her you ARE washing it. If you want to fib about using shampoo then do it. It's not a big deal to tell a few white lies. But whatever you do don't bring up the subject. If she brings it up give her a short and sweet answer and change the subject.

^^

starlamelissa
February 14th, 2013, 04:22 PM
I wouldn't try water only with a case of dandruff. My hubby tried it and it was bad for his skin/face/eyebrows/scalp. No bueno! As for your mom, it sounds like she is just being a mom, concerned for her daughter's health. Tell her you appreciate her concern, but you have it well in control.

renia22
February 14th, 2013, 05:53 PM
Hair is not DESIGNED to be washed with shampoo. That's really the point of WO, to be as natural as nature intended, right? Back in the mists of human existence, there was no shampoo... and people just... left their hair!!! Sure there will be some bacteria, but there is bacteria on washed hair. Not ALL bacteria is deleterious to human life. I doubt your hair will start harbouring some evil pathogens!!

I don't know about this^^, if this were the case, wouldn't this also be true of not washing our bodies or brushing our teeth?

Well I learned quite early in life not to share anything with my own mother, so I think it's sweet when I hear about people having a relationship with their parents where they can actually share things. If the OP's mother has generally been supportive, but came out with this out of the blue, maybe it's something she felt needed to be said and it just came out harshly? I don't know, personally, I would want someone to tell me if there was an odor or if something I was doing wasn't coming across as hygienic in some way.

bunnylake
February 14th, 2013, 09:51 PM
I don't know about this^^, if this were the case, wouldn't this also be true of not washing our bodies or brushing our teeth?

Well I learned quite early in life not to share anything with my own mother, so I think it's sweet when I hear about people having a relationship with their parents where they can actually share things. If the OP's mother has generally been supportive, but came out with this out of the blue, maybe it's something she felt needed to be said and it just came out harshly? I don't know, personally, I would want someone to tell me if there was an odor or if something I was doing wasn't coming across as hygienic in some way.

I don't mean to offend anyone in saying this. But this is my opinion. Just because throughout history we did not wash like most of us to today, doesn't mean it's better or that we should revert back to unhygienic practices. Shampoo/soaps/tooth paste etc was invented for us to use to live better healthier lives. I understand that people who use the WO method may preen and scritch and rinse thouroughly, but I don't think this method could possibly remove all of the dirt, dead skin cells, and germs that collect on our bodies. It may remain there, clogging pores and growing bacteria whether we feel/see it or not.
Also, we often cannot smell our own odors. Others around us may smell things that we don't.
Maybe I am wrong or naive about this method. I'm really adamant about my hygiene and cleanliness. I could not imagine going without washing in some way. Maybe this is how the OP's mother feels, and it's not her intention to be rude.

Alcenaia
February 14th, 2013, 10:03 PM
Why does your mother know how you are washing your hair in the first place?

I find it is best not to talk too much about ones hobbies with muggles, be it hair or the details of whatever I am spinning or knitting. I don't talk about my hair at all to my family.

Before I was born, my mother had hair nearly as long as mine is now. I think she lives "vicariously" through my hair, which I don't mind at all. She and I like to talk hair. :)


My two-penneth: I don't think your mother is jealous as she has been supportive about your long hair. I think she is concerned about your health, hygiene, smells and social norms. I do not think she should have been rude, but on the basis of what you have written, I think she is just being a typical, concerned mother.

As you say, you have dandruff and I would be concerned if my daughter was going WO if she had dandruff.

I have been NW and WO so I am not conforming to some prejudice about these things with no experience of them. I stopped because my scalp and hair got filthy dirty and I started getting tender-headed and then painful pimples when the hair follicles started getting blocked up. My ends were dry and split and my roots were greasy as hell. If it works for you, great, but if your mother had seen my hair after one month of WO, it would have justified her fears.

I hope WO works for you and if it does, I think your mother will be reassured.

I think you're right about what she really meant, Othala. Thanks for the perspective. The dandruff is a side effect of WO, but it has had a ton of other positives, so I am reluctant to scrap it. I apparently am still figuring out how to care for my own hair lol.


Agree that your mother doesn't have to know your hair care routine.

You do know that you still have to clean your scalp through mechanical means? You can't let the gunk build up; it will have negative consequences. I'm not up for all the work of massaging, preening, etc, so I'd rather stick to diluted shampoo washes.

Yes! I've actually been enjoying this part of WO.


I wouldn't try water only with a case of dandruff. My hubby tried it and it was bad for his skin/face/eyebrows/scalp. No bueno! As for your mom, it sounds like she is just being a mom, concerned for her daughter's health. Tell her you appreciate her concern, but you have it well in control.

Will do!

Thank you everyone for your helpful comments! :flower:

mleung
February 14th, 2013, 10:12 PM
ditto what everyone else has said. i think you should definitely try it & if it works, then there's proof right there for your mom. i guess you could present it that way - as merely an experiment.

i tried WO, & probably since i have the rather unlucky combination of fine hair, oily scalp, it didn't work for me. i have gotten to the point where i only wash my hair 2x a week, though & it seems that that's what my hair likes best. try things out & see what works best for you & your hair. if WO works for you, then great. if not, that's ok too.

best of luck!

trolleypup
February 15th, 2013, 01:22 AM
I left WO because it was more work (2 times a week) than a weekly light shampoo and condition and I've managed to figure out how to modify s&c so that my scalp doesn't go into rebellion.

What I have noticed is that I'm more likely to get smells, buildup, and flakes with S&C than with WO. YMMV, of course!

One thing that was important to me was using a strong enough water spray that it penetrated the hair and massaged the scalp. I never had problems with blocked pores and the like. I also finished with a vinegar rinse which probably also helped.

DancingQueen
February 15th, 2013, 01:53 AM
I have no science to back it up. But I can imagine the dandruff issues and lack of growth could be due to your routine. I never did WO before, but I have tried CO, and my hair started to shed insanely, and it stopped growing. And yes, I had buildup or dandruff.

When you only wash your hair with water, you don't get all the oils cleaned off your scalp. While it is good with a little oil, too much of it can cause shedding. It can also clog the hair follicles, which will make your hair unable to grow. At least that makes sense in my head, but I don't know if there are any studies saying something else. :)

About the ends, I don't know how fragile your hair is. But I know that my ends needs something to moisturize them, other than water. (conditioner/oil/etc.) Maybe you could put some oil just on the ends?

jessicac1
February 15th, 2013, 02:33 AM
Just going to add my opinion into the mix.
For 4 months while I tried to grow I went CO, my mum couldnt understand how a conditioner could wash your hair lol but it worked. She also didnt approve of my no heat, mainly because i wondered around with wet hair and I think she thought id catch the flu xD
I don't know how old you are but you don't need to share your routine with your mum, just keep it down low i think in future, thats my advice.

On it not growing: do you have a healthy diet with plenty of protein and b vitamins? Stress may be the sole cause though. I now occasionally use a hair dryer and I wash shampoo conditioner then a conditioning mask.
Good luck!
x

EndlessSunshine
February 15th, 2013, 06:24 AM
Smp, diluted vinegar rinses, and occasionally exfoliating the scalp with a brown sugar scrub should keep everything clean. I liked wo back in my early 20s. The food you eat can effect sebum production so eat your healthy fats. You can still lightly oil your ends to help keep them moist.

Bedhead
February 15th, 2013, 07:02 AM
Hmmm....
Well, I admit, when I was first researching WO and came across NW/SO I had a fairly judgemental reaction to it, like your mother does to WO. Usually when this is the case, it means there's a lack of understanding.

I told my parents when I started NW/SO, and their first reaction was clearly concern, until I explained that I still clean my hair and how.

In doing WO, I found simply rinsing wasn't enough, I had to really get the water in there, and heavily wash my hair, and followed it by oiling my ends with jojoba oil, otherwise they were dry. However, I also kept snooping on the NW/SO thread and learnt about the benefits of scritching, massage and preening, and so incorporated that. Maybe she's envisioning you simply rinsing your hair?

If you normally can talk honestly with your mom, I'd talk about all the ways you're making sure your hair is clean, and you might want to mention your date's comment, as well. ;) Otherwise, leave it alone, and pick your topics. The problem is if you have just started WO, you're hair is going to go through the transition period, which I'm sure your mom will notice.

missannie
February 17th, 2013, 12:07 AM
So i bought some mane and tail shampoo today, I am going to add the olive oil to it and see how it goes. My hair is naturally curly and I put olive oil and egg in it this morning for fifteen minutes and it relaxed my hair a ton!!! Catamonica did you just mix the olive oil in the bottle and shake it?

AMD
February 17th, 2013, 10:06 AM
I don't mean to offend anyone in saying this. But this is my opinion. Just because throughout history we did not wash like most of us to today, doesn't mean it's better or that we should revert back to unhygienic practices. Shampoo/soaps/tooth paste etc was invented for us to use to live better healthier lives. I understand that people who use the WO method may preen and scritch and rinse thouroughly, but I don't think this method could possibly remove all of the dirt, dead skin cells, and germs that collect on our bodies. It may remain there, clogging pores and growing bacteria whether we feel/see it or not.
Also, we often cannot smell our own odors. Others around us may smell things that we don't.
Maybe I am wrong or naive about this method. I'm really adamant about my hygiene and cleanliness. I could not imagine going without washing in some way. Maybe this is how the OP's mother feels, and it's not her intention to be rude.



I get what you're saying.
This is definitely a "to each his own" thing. Personally, I have dry skin and I used shampoos on my dry scalp for years. One year ago I stopped (first co-ing my scalp then WO) and it has been amazing. No itches, smell, or dryness. Not unhygienic. Just normal. These products are made for a majority, but not all, and it can't be treated as a huge benefit for every individual.

Except toothpaste. I support that.

EndlessSunshine
February 17th, 2013, 10:41 AM
I get what you're saying.
This is definitely a "to each his own" thing. Personally, I have dry skin and I used shampoos on my dry scalp for years. One year ago I stopped (first co-ing my scalp then WO) and it has been amazing. No itches, smell, or dryness. Not unhygienic. Just normal. These products are made for a majority, but not all, and it can't be treated as a huge benefit for every individual.

Except toothpaste. I support that.
Ymmv right. Now I have used just a wet toothbrush to brush. I still flossed too and didn't have any problems. I have also used peppermint dr. Bronners to brush. It is all about finding what works for you. Right now I use conventional toothpaste. But if soap or sls screws up your skin then find a different way. I think a lot of lhcers are such awesome people for going against the "norm". It is liberating for me to read all the different methods.

Mandie
February 17th, 2013, 12:00 PM
Regarding toothpaste, studies show that a wet toothbrush and two minutes of vigorous brushing does the exact same thing for your teeth as toothpaste. So really I imagine rather like toothpaste the benefits of and need for shampoo/conditioner may be somewhat overhyped. I have a SUPER oily scalp so without shampoo I turn into a mess. My hair gets stringy and disgusting.

I tried WO and my mother had the same freakout knee-jerk reaction. She demanded to know how I thought I was going to get clean. I pointed out to her that due to my allergy to regular soap I haven't used soap on my skin in seventeen years and she never noticed. Same premise -- lots of time tucked under the water. Don't forget back before people had soap people also didn't have powerful running water in their showers.

katiebeans
February 17th, 2013, 12:56 PM
I would like to contribute to the whole necessity of shampoo/soap/toothpaste arguments.

I haven't used shampoo for almost 8 months and I am a firm believer that shampoo is completely unecessary :D I hear a lot of women say they need it because without, their hair will turn into a greasy mess. But I really think that shampoo's stripping properties are too blame for that. Before I stopped using shampoo I washed every morning and by early evening my would already appear greasey. Now, I can go a whole week without washing using my BS/ACV method. I know a lot of people aren't fond of BS, but it really is all about "to each their own" and what works best for you. So maybe that does mean shampoo for some people.

In regards to body washing with soap, I also believe that is not necessary. My entire life growing up there was almost never any soap in the shower. I think this had something to do with growing up in a big family and it was just easier for my mother not to buy it. These days I enjoy scrubbing down with a loofah and soap because it makes me feel luxurious, but my entire childhood I only washed with water and I never had problems with body odor.

As far as toothpaste goes, I have never tried any alternative method of brushing my teeth although I have been meaning to look into it. In the past I have read on a few blogs about scrubbing your toothbrush on glycerine-free soap and brushing away. I know scrubbing using your fingers is a big part of keeping your hair clean using WO and NW/SO, so I wonder if a smiliar method would apply to keeping your teeth clean. I would be interested in reading up on some science behind this.

Tota
February 17th, 2013, 01:00 PM
I'm sure my mom would react the same or ever harsher way. I don't even want to think what my sis would do - she's is a health inspector and had once have a panic attack when I tried to explain how CO works :) If it works for you though just keep at it and don't talk about it much outside LHC. I know I can't go WO because I hate the smell of my sebum, but my skin is very oily to begin with.

ravenreed
February 17th, 2013, 01:25 PM
I wash often because among other things, I am allergic to practically everything in the world, and hair collects allergens. So, especially if I have been out and about, I CO my hair. My allergist recommends doing it every day, at least a rinse, but I do it every other day unless I have been around known allergens or it was a really windy day. Windy days do me in; I often can't even leave the house. I have tried just rinsing on my off days, but for some reason just rinsing with water makes my hair looks oily when I do that. I dislike the slick, piec-y oily look hair gets when it isn't washed, so that is another reason I choose to wash often.

When I was a kid, we took a bath about once a week. I remember the water being brown. I also remember that my hair was even more tangled and splitty than it is now. I frequently had to cut mats out from my hair because it got so tangled. I don't think stretching washes is necessarily that beneficial. I know for my hair, it gets more dried out when I don't CO every other day. Even oiling doesn't have the same effect that a good scrub does.


I don't mean to offend anyone in saying this. But this is my opinion. Just because throughout history we did not wash like most of us to today, doesn't mean it's better or that we should revert back to unhygienic practices. Shampoo/soaps/tooth paste etc was invented for us to use to live better healthier lives. I understand that people who use the WO method may preen and scritch and rinse thouroughly, but I don't think this method could possibly remove all of the dirt, dead skin cells, and germs that collect on our bodies. It may remain there, clogging pores and growing bacteria whether we feel/see it or not.
Also, we often cannot smell our own odors. Others around us may smell things that we don't.
Maybe I am wrong or naive about this method. I'm really adamant about my hygiene and cleanliness. I could not imagine going without washing in some way. Maybe this is how the OP's mother feels, and it's not her intention to be rude.

lapushka
February 17th, 2013, 05:29 PM
I would like to contribute to the whole necessity of shampoo/soap/toothpaste arguments.

I haven't used shampoo for almost 8 months and I am a firm believer that shampoo is completely unecessary :D I hear a lot of women say they need it because without, their hair will turn into a greasy mess. But I really think that shampoo's stripping properties are too blame for that. Before I stopped using shampoo I washed every morning and by early evening my would already appear greasey. Now, I can go a whole week without washing using my BS/ACV method. I know a lot of people aren't fond of BS, but it really is all about "to each their own" and what works best for you. So maybe that does mean shampoo for some people.

If you've been using BS every week instead of shampoo, well that's actually much harsher than regular shampoo. Just FYI. :)

ravenreed
February 17th, 2013, 05:55 PM
Fluoride is recommended to keep teeth strong, not just remove plaque.


Regarding toothpaste, studies show that a wet toothbrush and two minutes of vigorous brushing does the exact same thing for your teeth as toothpaste. So really I imagine rather like toothpaste the benefits of and need for shampoo/conditioner may be somewhat overhyped. I have a SUPER oily scalp so without shampoo I turn into a mess. My hair gets stringy and disgusting.

I tried WO and my mother had the same freakout knee-jerk reaction. She demanded to know how I thought I was going to get clean. I pointed out to her that due to my allergy to regular soap I haven't used soap on my skin in seventeen years and she never noticed. Same premise -- lots of time tucked under the water. Don't forget back before people had soap people also didn't have powerful running water in their showers.

katiebeans
February 17th, 2013, 06:44 PM
If you've been using BS every week instead of shampoo, well that's actually much harsher than regular shampoo. Just FYI. :)

Hm, I'll have to disagree here. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any real proof to support that. I have found -unreliable- evidence all over the web supporting both sides of the argument. Let's stress the unreliable-ness here. Because it is the web afterall :p. I am aware of BS's acidity and my hair's Ph balance, but as far as I am concerned an ACV rinse balances it out. I dilute 1 tsp. in 1 cup water. If this let's me go a week without washing, it certainly isn't stripping as many of my natural oils as shampoo was. If it's having any other negative effects on my hair, no one has ever been able to notice.

Like I said, to each their own.

AMD
February 17th, 2013, 08:56 PM
Fluoride is recommended to keep teeth strong, not just remove plaque.

That's prevalent in tap water where I am (as well as some bottled water)

Naiadryade
February 17th, 2013, 11:59 PM
Dandruff is sometimes caused by a fungus that grows on the scalp. If you've started having dandruff since you went WO, I suspect this is the culprit. Doesn't mean WO is bad or even that you're being unhygienic... just that maybe you haven't figured out your entire routine yet.

When I was WO, I combated this dandruff with apple cider vinegar, which kills the fungus. I used it straight on my scalp, though I now believe it would be less drying if diluted--though as a dandruff treatment, I wouldn't dilute it as much as people normally dilute it when using it for shine and hair health. I generally left this to soak on my head for a while before rinsing it out. I'm not sure how necessary this soaking time was.

However, using just water and ACV on my hair left my hair very dry. This is why I eventually abandoned WO. But if you also oiled your hair, especially with an anti-fungal oil like coconut or castor oil, that might work. Using castor oil with essential oils in it on my scalp is how I keep my dandruff at bay these days (and promote hair growth at the same time).

Good luck!

Mesmerise
February 18th, 2013, 02:19 AM
I don't know about this^^, if this were the case, wouldn't this also be true of not washing our bodies or brushing our teeth?

Well I learned quite early in life not to share anything with my own mother, so I think it's sweet when I hear about people having a relationship with their parents where they can actually share things. If the OP's mother has generally been supportive, but came out with this out of the blue, maybe it's something she felt needed to be said and it just came out harshly? I don't know, personally, I would want someone to tell me if there was an odor or if something I was doing wasn't coming across as hygienic in some way.

Well, actually... before we ate loads of processed food and stuff, people didn't need to clean their teeth daily! (Read "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston A Price... he studied many primitive tribes who didn't use toothpaste, and all had fantastic teeth compared to modern humans!).

Now, that doesn't mean I don't clean my teeth. It doesn't mean I don't use soap, or shampoo. I do, I use all these things (well I use tooth soap now... but I digress) and I use them because I'm USED to them. I LIKE the feeling of clean, fresh hair. BUT... I don't believe we NEED them. I don't believe we are designed for them. I believe that a person can keep clean enough without shampoo, conditioner, soap or toothpaste (especially if they eat a really natural diet with no added sugars or processed foods... I know myself that if I eat no sugar or processed foods I can go many more hours without yucky, plaquey teeth!).

The biggest issue, IMHO, of not washing the way we do, is probably lack of sterility when it comes to wounds. In general day to day life, I don't think not washing is a problem. However, if you have a wound and don't clean it in some way, it could go septic (it'd have to be worse than a scratch on the finger though).

So yeah, I'm not arguing we should all stop using personal hygiene products, as I use them myself... BUT I don't judge someone who decides to stop using them and go natural! Provided they wash with water etc. it shouldn't be a problem.

renia22
February 18th, 2013, 10:51 AM
The biggest issue, IMHO, of not washing the way we do, is probably lack of sterility when it comes to wounds. In general day to day life, I don't think not washing is a problem. However, if you have a wound and don't clean it in some way, it could go septic (it'd have to be worse than a scratch on the finger though).

So yeah, I'm not arguing we should all stop using personal hygiene products, as I use them myself... BUT I don't judge someone who decides to stop using them and go natural! Provided they wash with water etc. it shouldn't be a problem.

It's usually just a problem for those interacting with and having to be in close proximity with the person :/. Believe me, I have been in groups & part of the yoga community for a while, and when you get people who are into 'all natural' and don't believe in soap or deodorant (including thinking it's not necessary to wash hands after going to the bathroom..talk about spreading germs), usually the people around them are suffocating and want to say something, and the person in question is usually oblivious because they don't really smell it on themselves. Everyone somehow just has to tolerate it for fear of coming across as "judgmental"? Seriously? I don't know, it seems like most offices these days have no-perfume policies for people who are allergic to scents, are we now going to have to take it a step further and remind people to wash and keep up basic hygiene so the rest of us aren't choking on b.o.? I mean..okay...if that's what people want to do..doesn't mean those around you aren't noticing or being affected.

longforthis
February 18th, 2013, 03:42 PM
I can sympathize with the poster!

When I started my no 'poo journey, my Grandmother was acting as the "devils advocate" and kept telling me maybe I should go back to using shampoo or something. I was going through my transitional stage, so my hair was greasy, dandruffy, and looked just awful. During a time I needed support, I got backlash. But it built some character. ;)

I am now Water-Only with hair washing; I wash about every two days right now, I still need to work on stretching washes.
I don't use soap; I body brush, scrub in the shower, and follow with coconut oil, but it's not always needed.
I don't use toothpaste; I use mineral salt, baking soda, or whatever else I like to experiment with. May try glycerin free soap or something soon.

When eat "clean" (I eat meat, saturated fats, limited grains, raw fruits and veggies. I am not perfect with this, still consume sugar, etc.), exercise, and properly care for my body, I look and smell no different than my family who do use the things I do not.

I have gotten compliments on my dark, curly hair. People say I have great skin. I do have the occasional BO issues, but that's normally when I eat junk and am stressed out. Although, who, using chemical deodorants, do not have those days? ;)

We are scent free in this house, due to my Dad having MCS (Multiple Chemical Sensitivity). But I now cannot stand fragrance. I have learned the side effects and consequences of fragrance and chemicals; one being that they tend to have the same effect as Second Hand Smoke. So I do "smell" different, I guess. Although, I love essential oils!

When you get against the tide, people will bump right into you once in a while. I figure that all I can do is inform people, and leave the good influence and witness.

(If the things I did caused offense to people, like, my hair smelling rancid, bad B.O., and skin flaking everywhere..then I would change. I did experience this through transitional phases, however most transitional phases, physical or spiritual, aren't always the prettiest things.)

ravenreed
February 18th, 2013, 04:01 PM
Dental caries is contagious. It is more likely that those populations were not exposed. There are other issues with his approach, according to Quackwatch (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holisticdent.html). "Much of "holistic dentistry" is rooted in the activities of Weston A. Price, D.D.S. (1870-1948), a dentist who maintained that sugar causes not only tooth decay but physical, mental, moral, and social decay as well. Price made a whirlwind tour of primitive areas, examined the natives superficially, and jumped to simplistic conclusions. While extolling their health, he ignored their short life expectancy and high rates of infant mortality, endemic diseases, and malnutrition. While praising their diets for not producing cavities, he ignored the fact that malnourished people don't usually get many cavities."

We live long healthy lives because of three things: modern medicine/dentistry, improved nutrition, and modern hygiene. Less than a hundred years ago, a woman expected to lose a tooth for every child she had because of poor nutrition and dental care. I remember all the folks around me when I was young had false teeth. People that were the age I am now had partial and full dentures and that was normal. I have all my own teeth and less than a handful of cavities. THANK YOU, MODERN LIFE! People around the world, primitive by modern standards, used things to clean their teeth. I have read about sticks, ashes, tooth-cloths, all sorts of things. Infected teeth could, and often did kill people. I will stick with my fluoride toothpastes. All the people I know who are doing the non-fluoride 'natural' toothpastes are having root canals. No thanks.



Well, actually... before we ate loads of processed food and stuff, people didn't need to clean their teeth daily! (Read "Nutrition and Physical Degeneration" by Weston A Price... he studied many primitive tribes who didn't use toothpaste, and all had fantastic teeth compared to modern humans!).

Now, that doesn't mean I don't clean my teeth. It doesn't mean I don't use soap, or shampoo. I do, I use all these things (well I use tooth soap now... but I digress) and I use them because I'm USED to them. I LIKE the feeling of clean, fresh hair. BUT... I don't believe we NEED them. I don't believe we are designed for them. I believe that a person can keep clean enough without shampoo, conditioner, soap or toothpaste (especially if they eat a really natural diet with no added sugars or processed foods... I know myself that if I eat no sugar or processed foods I can go many more hours without yucky, plaquey teeth!).

The biggest issue, IMHO, of not washing the way we do, is probably lack of sterility when it comes to wounds. In general day to day life, I don't think not washing is a problem. However, if you have a wound and don't clean it in some way, it could go septic (it'd have to be worse than a scratch on the finger though).

So yeah, I'm not arguing we should all stop using personal hygiene products, as I use them myself... BUT I don't judge someone who decides to stop using them and go natural! Provided they wash with water etc. it shouldn't be a problem.

ravenreed
February 18th, 2013, 04:14 PM
Yeah, I have friends who do the same thing. I don't speak up, but I sure do get annoyed. I am sensitive to fragrances, but am also sensitive to B.O. On a hot summer day, sometimes a swipe of E.O. under the pits just isn't enough.


It's usually just a problem for those interacting with and having to be in close proximity with the person :/. Believe me, I have been in groups & part of the yoga community for a while, and when you get people who are into 'all natural' and don't believe in soap or deodorant (including thinking it's not necessary to wash hands after going to the bathroom..talk about spreading germs), usually the people around them are suffocating and want to say something, and the person in question is usually oblivious because they don't really smell it on themselves. Everyone somehow just has to tolerate it for fear of coming across as "judgmental"? Seriously? I don't know, it seems like most offices these days have no-perfume policies for people who are allergic to scents, are we now going to have to take it a step further and remind people to wash and keep up basic hygiene so the rest of us aren't choking on b.o.? I mean..okay...if that's what people want to do..doesn't mean those around you aren't noticing or being affected.

Mesmerise
February 18th, 2013, 04:42 PM
Dental caries is contagious. It is more likely that those populations were not exposed. There are other issues with his approach, according to Quackwatch (http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/holisticdent.html).

Sorry but that Quackwatch article puts me off in the first paragraph where it mentions "unnecessary replacement of amalgam fillings". Seriously?! They still think it's okay to have mercury in your mouth? And errm... suggesting that disease can be prevented by maintaining optimal health is not exactly quackery, is it?

I actually think people should read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration before they dismiss it :). Weston A Price compared groups of related people living their traditional lifestyles, and living in societies where they were impacted by "modern" foods etc. The results are quite clear, and very disturbing. Many of the primitive people weren't really "primitive" either, just isolated!

I just think it's important to carefully consider both sides of the story before jumping to conclusions that one is "right" and the other "wrong"... odds are there are probably truths on both sides of the spectrum. I'm actually pretty convinced that sugar IS responsible for a whole host of conditions (not just dental)... personal experimentation is enough to tell me this! I'm pretty sure some of Doctor Price's conclusions were wrong (or were simply based on the knowledge available at the time) but a lot of it really does make sense, and many people have benefited from making some changes to their lifestyles!

Kayleigh
February 18th, 2013, 05:06 PM
I agree, it's probably just an overconcerned mum. It's a shame she had to be rude about it though. A text message is definitely not the right way to do this, since it's easy to misinterpret the tone. I also think it's a bit of a case of ignorance, people have a tendency to judge things they don't understand. So I think the best way is try to explain after you've asked her why she reacted in that way.

I did a 6-weeks WO-experiment once. Told no-one and no-one noticed, I even got nice comments (didn't wear it loose though). During the sixth week I told my mom, while we were sitting at a busstop, that I hadn't washed my hair in six weeks. She didn't even blink. She trusts me to make the right decision. She gives her opinion, I take it into consideration and whatever decision I make she generally supports it even if she doesn't agree.

goldloli
February 18th, 2013, 06:59 PM
Rinsing hands only displaces bacteria, moving some of it around the hand and leaving most in tact, whereas washing with a detergent/antibacterial kills the germs. It's for this reason I don't really agree with wo or so routines and 'natural' hygiene. We're living the longest, we're the tallest etc etc of any generation before, a large part of that is down to hygiene.

I really dont think your mom was being jelly. Even after being a lhc member i still cringe at the sight of greasy hair on myself or people in public, and no an updo doesnt hide it. I think maybe it's just this stigma and other negative connotations of not washing hair, even if your scalp does remain healthy, that is freaking out your mom. Fortunately everybody is entitled to live as they please, so if you want to, then please go ahead with your wo journey and just maybe don't disclose details to her. As for smell worries, rose water, rosemary etc all smell divine, make up a hair spritz :)

Angel Barchild
February 18th, 2013, 07:07 PM
Rinsing hands only displaces bacteria, moving some of it around the hand and leaving most in tact, whereas washing with a detergent/antibacterial kills the germs. It's for this reason I don't really agree with wo or so routines and 'natural' hygiene. We're living the longest, we're the tallest etc etc of any generation before, a large part of that is down to hygiene.

I really dont think your mom was being jelly. Even after being a lhc member i still cringe at the sight of greasy hair on myself or people in public, and no an updo doesnt hide it. I think maybe it's just this stigma and other negative connotations of not washing hair, even if your scalp does remain healthy, that is freaking out your mom. Fortunately everybody is entitled to live as they please, so if you want to, then please go ahead with your wo journey and just maybe don't disclose details to her. As for smell worries, rose water, rosemary etc all smell divine, make up a hair spritz :)

You don't have to use antibacterial soap, anything that gets slick and foamy will work, it coats all the stuff on your skin and slides it off. Other than that I seriously agree with you. Unless you're feeling nostalgic for polio (it's spread by not washing hands after using the bathroom) use soap, at least on your hands.

lapushka
February 18th, 2013, 07:41 PM
My mom isn't WO, but her hair (scalp) is very dry, which means she can go a month without washing and it doesn't even go oily, it's just product (hairspray) overload by that time. If she were to do WO, it would hardly be noticeable as her scalp doesn't produce sebum in the same way as mine does. So I guess, yes, for some people WO is hardly noticeable, however.... I can't possibly go WO, as my scalp goes oily fast, and as goldloli already said, you cannot hide oily hair, not even in an updo. So is the OP's mom just overly concerned or is it noticeable that the OP is WO? That's one question that remains for me.

gnome82
February 19th, 2013, 03:52 AM
Oh we all know that using shampoo = sterile scalp and hair :spitting:
:rollin:

God forbid anyone ever having sebum on their scalp :crazyq:

woolyleprechaun
February 19th, 2013, 05:25 AM
I just wouldn't tell her anything in future..... 'Yes, mom. I am washing my hair as we speak...'

LadyCelestina
February 19th, 2013, 07:00 AM
I'm no scientist,but I believe not all bacteria you have on scalp is bad .Just like you have bacteria in your intestines,on your face etc... So unless you are suffering from a bacterial/fungal condition,WO isn't gross.The only culprit could be not removing dead skin cells by scritching and massaging while showering,but I think this applies for any hair washing method...Or not washing method,like sebum only.I don't think most shower gels or shampoos are antibacterial,anyway...

goldloli
February 19th, 2013, 07:13 AM
Oh we all know that using shampoo = sterile scalp and hair :spitting:
:rollin:

God forbid anyone ever having sebum on their scalp :crazyq:
Strong virtuous use of emoticons there.

Noone is attacking followers of the wo method. It comes with pitfalls like every other method, most notably a social stigma of being unhygienic, greasy and smelly... Whether it is or isn't. The convi got off track by someone defending it and people countering. OPs mother didn't approve, probably for these very reasons. Expression of personal views as to why I wouldn't do the method isnt an attack on the method. It was intended as a demonstration that even a LHC member who should be used to alternative hair methods, still gets heebee jeebees over such things. Knowing that, it shouldn't be shocking to discover muggles would be of this opinion and therefore unsupportive.

ravenreed
February 19th, 2013, 05:15 PM
I looked into the filling issue and the best I could figure, I would expose myself to more mercury having my few fillings removed than to leave them alone. I have so many books on my 'to read' list that I always look up one before I commit. Unfortunately, this one doesn't pass my muster. Please remember, correlation doesn't equal causation. I am not opposed to looking for better ways of doing things, but I don't want to fix what is already working for me.


Sorry but that Quackwatch article puts me off in the first paragraph where it mentions "unnecessary replacement of amalgam fillings". Seriously?! They still think it's okay to have mercury in your mouth? And errm... suggesting that disease can be prevented by maintaining optimal health is not exactly quackery, is it?

I actually think people should read Nutrition and Physical Degeneration before they dismiss it :). Weston A Price compared groups of related people living their traditional lifestyles, and living in societies where they were impacted by "modern" foods etc. The results are quite clear, and very disturbing. Many of the primitive people weren't really "primitive" either, just isolated!

I just think it's important to carefully consider both sides of the story before jumping to conclusions that one is "right" and the other "wrong"... odds are there are probably truths on both sides of the spectrum. I'm actually pretty convinced that sugar IS responsible for a whole host of conditions (not just dental)... personal experimentation is enough to tell me this! I'm pretty sure some of Doctor Price's conclusions were wrong (or were simply based on the knowledge available at the time) but a lot of it really does make sense, and many people have benefited from making some changes to their lifestyles!

renia22
February 20th, 2013, 07:35 AM
Yeah, I have friends who do the same thing. I don't speak up, but I sure do get annoyed. I am sensitive to fragrances, but am also sensitive to B.O. On a hot summer day, sometimes a swipe of E.O. under the pits just isn't enough.

Same here. You know I actually went to a yoga retreat once where they told us not to bring deodorant & provided castile soap for us. Something about getting in touch with our feelings about it. It was *really* bad, to the point I smuggled in my own unscented deodorant so I could at least deal with myself, but the rooms were pretty rank. I'm sensitive to scents too, including BO as well, I think lots of people are.


You don't have to use antibacterial soap, anything that gets slick and foamy will work, it coats all the stuff on your skin and slides it off. Other than that I seriously agree with you. Unless you're feeling nostalgic for polio (it's spread by not washing hands after using the bathroom) use soap, at least on your hands.

Yup, or would like to spread pathogens, bacteria, viruses (including the common cold, flu, stomach flu), parasites...

As far as the actual science behind it, I don't know, I have yet to read anything that supports it. I understand that some people have drier or thicker hair types & don't need to wash as often, or use the various 'no poo' methods because they prefer how their hair feels (or like to experiment, are trying to save money, use fewer chemicals, etc, etc), but I have yet to read anything scientific that says not washing your hair is better for it. Lots of word of mouth reports & personal preference mostly. Despite popular belief, hair sebum isn't even all that great for hair the way people think it is. At best, it seems that a lot of the info is mostly personal preference or urban legends. At worst I have read that the opposite is true, that not washing can lead to fungus/ bacterial problems which can then lead to hair loss.

http://www.hlpcenters.com/top10.html

http://thebeautybrains.com/2012/12/21/does-your-own-sebum-protect-your-hair/


http://thebeautybrains.com/2013/02/20/heres-another-beauty-myth-buster/

lapushka
February 20th, 2013, 07:56 AM
Despite popular belief, hair sebum isn't even all that great for hair the way people think it is. At best, it seems that a lot of the info is mostly personal preference or urban legends. At worst I have read that the opposite is true, that not washing can lead to fungus/ bacterial problems which can then lead to hair loss.

I have mild SD, and due to some special circumstances (that I'm not going to elaborate on), I couldn't wash my hair but every 2 weeks for a long stretch of time. I normally have to wash 2 times a week (!) for my hair to look presentable. After a while my SD acted up severely, so I think that you are right about the fungal issue. Therefore I think the success of WO mainly consists of people who have the scalp for it. I think the people that are more successful at WO are people that naturally don't have to wash as often as most anyway. And if you do, then yes, it might smell bad and you'd best not do it.

CousinItt
February 20th, 2013, 01:19 PM
You don't have to use antibacterial soap, anything that gets slick and foamy will work, it coats all the stuff on your skin and slides it off. Other than that I seriously agree with you. Unless you're feeling nostalgic for polio (it's spread by not washing hands after using the bathroom) use soap, at least on your hands.
washing hands isn't what's keeping polio at bay, vaccination is. Also, bubbles are added to soaps to make us think its working. Many natural soaps don't get sudsy, yet still kill bacteria by disrupting the cell wall.

I am a proponent of using soap and water to keep hands clean and prevent the spread of disease in that way, but we overuse "hygiene products". Our skin doesn't just house bad bacteria, but a whole host of flora that either cause no harm, or are beneficial to us, and every time we lather up, we wash all of them off. This can cause imbalances in the skin, leading to infections. In short, hygiene good, excessive hygiene not so good.

Kalamazoo
September 28th, 2018, 10:48 AM
Have you seen Ramiel Nagle's book, "Cure Tooth Decay"? Wow.

Kalamazoo
September 28th, 2018, 10:51 AM
That was in response to Katiebeans' saying: "As far as toothpaste goes, I have never tried any alternative method of brushing my teeth although I have been meaning to look into it. In the past I have read on a few blogs about scrubbing your toothbrush on glycerine-free soap and brushing away. I know scrubbing using your fingers is a big part of keeping your hair clean using WO and NW/SO, so I wonder if a smiliar method would apply to keeping your teeth clean. I would be interested in reading up on some science behind this." back on page 3.

Kalamazoo
September 28th, 2018, 10:54 AM
Oops. That was page 4.

Ylva
September 28th, 2018, 01:05 PM
Hair is not DESIGNED to be washed with shampoo. That's really the point of WO, to be as natural as nature intended, right? Back in the mists of human existence, there was no shampoo... and people just... left their hair!!! Sure there will be some bacteria, but there is bacteria on washed hair. Not ALL bacteria is deleterious to human life. I doubt your hair will start harbouring some evil pathogens!!

Indeed. There is tons of bacteria on human skin and it's actually protective. Removing the natural flora of the skin can make space for bad bacteria, which will cause illnesses.

But as usual, each to their own, with existing medical conditions and tendencies for such etc.

Ylva
September 28th, 2018, 01:08 PM
I don't know about this^^, if this were the case, wouldn't this also be true of not washing our bodies or brushing our teeth?

I'm being stupid and not reading the whole thread before writing replies, but it is similarly true of washing our bodies as I wrote above about skin. The teeth were generally cleansed by other means like chewing on birch wood or bones. Speaking of birch, the first "chewing gum" was a piece of birch wood found in Finland. It's no wonder that the benfits of xylitol to teeth were also discovered in Finland. In modern times, we live in such hygienic conditions that our bodies have adapted to it. There are more allergies due to this reason specifically. But in essence, we're still the same species as 100 000 years ago.

Personally, I very rarely use soap on my body. I only do so on my armpits when they clearly smell. Otherwise, just water.

nycelle
September 28th, 2018, 01:54 PM
To each their own, but I will never give up soap or toothpaste. I take showers every day, and wash my hands all day long.

I don't get sick very often, and have very good teeth. I believe good hygiene, much like diet and exercise, plays a part in staying healthy.

Ylva
September 28th, 2018, 02:23 PM
I don't get sick very often, and have very good teeth. I believe good hygiene, much like diet and exercise, plays a part in staying healthy.

I don't think anyone here is advocating BAD hygiene. :) It's just that what is good enough hygiene to stay healthy and clean can be much less than what we perceive it to be.

Sarahlabyrinth
September 28th, 2018, 02:27 PM
There's really no need for your mother to know your hair care routine :)

nycelle
September 28th, 2018, 02:39 PM
I don't think anyone here is advocating BAD hygiene. :) It's just that what is good enough hygiene to stay healthy and clean can be much less than what we perceive it to be.

Dunno.. I have some very definite ideas of what I think is "enough" when it comes to hygiene - at least for myself.

I'll just bow out of this convo now and see myself to the door.. lol.. :bottomsup:

Alex Lou
September 28th, 2018, 03:37 PM
Since I'm prone to SD, I suppose the bacteria on my scalp are losing the battle to yeast. Are there scalp probiotics? Should I be putting yogurt on my scalp?

I'm kidding. I'm not going to (or should I?). But my scalp bacteria have never done anything to offend me.

illicitlizard
September 29th, 2018, 06:40 AM
Dunno.. I have some very definite ideas of what I think is "enough" when it comes to hygiene - at least for myself.

Honestly same. I definitely prefer people I'm around to wash every couple days at least and to wear deodorant + keep teeth and hair clean.

This isn't to say that WO for hair is 'unclean' or 'unhygienic' and we certainly are too scared of 'germs' in society these days (saw a post on reddit just yesterday asking how to use a pot lip balm with concern it was too unhygienic smh) but I reckon it's definitely easier to wash using modern conveniences \_(ツ)_/
I would kinda like to see some actual scientific articles on WO though just out of sheer curiosity.

TreesOfEternity
September 29th, 2018, 07:15 AM
The only “downside” of not using soap is that you will have some kind of smell, because of the bacteria and your natural body secretions. It’s not bad per se, if you don’t mind it’s perfectly fine.
When it comes to teeth washing though as someone commented, yes back in the day people were fine not washing them, but they only live to their 30s so they didn’t have to worry about having a full functioning collection of tooth by the time they were 60 years old hehe, I don’t think you can compare hair and teeth hygiene.

lucid
September 29th, 2018, 07:57 AM
Back in the days people also smelled like ****. People died young and people died from sickness that could have been avoided with adequate hygiene. Things aren't necessarily good just because they're natural...

I know one person irl who WO, and imo their hair looks dirty and smell like "hair". Even though the smell is normal, I don't like it. For the same reasons I don't like smelling people's body odor, and therefore prefer people using deodorant and washing (some need strong soaps and deodorants, others not).

I also think some of the hair of both people who wash rarely and people who WO often looks dirty in pics.

Joules
September 29th, 2018, 08:20 AM
The only “downside” of not using soap is that you will have some kind of smell, because of the bacteria and your natural body secretions. It’s not bad per se, if you don’t mind it’s perfectly fine.
When it comes to teeth washing though as someone commented, yes back in the day people were fine not washing them, but they only live to their 30s so they didn’t have to worry about having a full functioning collection of tooth by the time they were 60 years old hehe, I don’t think you can compare hair and teeth hygiene.


Back in the days people also smelled like ****. People died young and people died from sickness that could have been avoided with adequate hygiene. Things aren't necessarily good just because they're natural...

I know one person irl who WO, and imo their hair looks dirty and smell like "hair". Even though the smell is normal, I don't like it. For the same reasons I don't like smelling people's body odor, and therefore prefer people using deodorant and washing (some need strong soaps and deodorants, others not).

I also think some of the hair of both people who wash rarely and people who WO often looks dirty in pics.

This!
We weren't designed to wash our hair in soap, we weren't designed for a lot of things. Like medicine, for example. Yet we all rush to doctors whenever something in our bodies goes wrong.

We also can't know for sure if people had thick healthy hair back in the day. Maybe most of the people were bald by the time they reached their 20s, who knows, old paintings and bog bodies don't show the full picture. I wholeheartedly believe not washing your hair with anything even remotely cleansing is not healthy (and plain water is not cleansing at all). I sure hope my mother tells me something if I for some reason decide to abandon basic hygiene.

lithostoic
September 29th, 2018, 08:26 AM
I don't see why you told her at all, as it is none of her business! Hopefully things have changed in the years since this was posted.

Chromis
September 29th, 2018, 09:18 AM
I don't see why you told her at all, as it is none of her business! Hopefully things have changed in the years since this was posted.

Yeah, this is quite the thread zombie!

As to the off-topic derail: Using soap and brushing your teeth does not always mean you won't smell. I had this roommate once who just reeked. It was a tiny place, so I know she brushed and flossed and heck, we used the same shampoo since there really wasn't room in the tiny shower. Some people just have terrible body chemistry or some real bad underlying dental problems. I have also had roomies who washed their hair daily and still had lank greasy looking hair. (This was way before LHC, so they thought that was just how their hair was and that they had this awful ugly hair. :( ) I have had other roomies who did WO or like me just didn't shower every day and some of them didn't smell at all. You can't always assume!

EdG
September 29th, 2018, 10:11 AM
In my experience, hair will have a slight odor starting 12-24 hours after washing regardless of whether the hair had been washed with shampoo or water-only. Omitting shampoo does not make any difference 12-24 hours later. The odor is usually not strong or unpleasant.

I suspect a lot of people on this board have hair that smells like hair. :)
Ed

Hairkay
September 29th, 2018, 10:21 AM
I get what you're saying.
This is definitely a "to each his own" thing. Personally, I have dry skin and I used shampoos on my dry scalp for years. One year ago I stopped (first co-ing my scalp then WO) and it has been amazing. No itches, smell, or dryness. Not unhygienic. Just normal. These products are made for a majority, but not all, and it can't be treated as a huge benefit for every individual.

Except toothpaste. I support that.

I've being doing WO for many years due to my allergies. I also have dry skin. I make sure to scritch, massage and preen all the time.


I wash often because among other things, I am allergic to practically everything in the world, and hair collects allergens. So, especially if I have been out and about, I CO my hair. My allergist recommends doing it every day, at least a rinse, but I do it every other day unless I have been around known allergens or it was a really windy day. Windy days do me in; I often can't even leave the house. I have tried just rinsing on my off days, but for some reason just rinsing with water makes my hair looks oily when I do that. I dislike the slick, piec-y oily look hair gets when it isn't washed, so that is another reason I choose to wash often.

When I was a kid, we took a bath about once a week. I remember the water being brown. I also remember that my hair was even more tangled and splitty than it is now. I frequently had to cut mats out from my hair because it got so tangled. I don't think stretching washes is necessarily that beneficial. I know for my hair, it gets more dried out when I don't CO every other day. Even oiling doesn't have the same effect that a good scrub does.

I also wash my hair daily for the same reasons. I can't use soap at all for washing or shampoos and haven't been able to do so since childhood. When my skin broke down, my family were already using mild, ph balanced colour free soaps. I switched to using baby soaps and the irritation persisted. Then the doctors said to avoid soap altogether. At the time I was a bit shocked and panicked about what to use. The doctors recommended alternatives, these were creams and oil mixes. Some had a mild fragrance but after some years even that caused problems so I had to go for the scent free versions. Shampoo had to go too. Doctor's recommended an alternative too. That never worked out well for me so in the end I gave that up.

The OP's mother doesn't have a right to know about how she cares for her hair but since she has told the mother, she has to deal with the reaction.

My mother does know that I do the WO method because I told her when she mentioned how well my hair looked. I told her that I gave up the doctor recommended stuff which would dry my hair. Because of the family allergies background she would never go on a rant about not using soap. I didn't choose not to use it, I can't. I didn't take any stand regarding the environment, a certain type of health lifestyle or even politics. I have to carry my own cream handwash alternative with me everywhere so I have something to use before handling food or using toilets when I am not at home. I also don't announce my soap free existence to everyone because I know there are those who would immediately say that is unhygienic and go on their "unclean" rants. Some with my skin condition can still use some soaps which causes confusion about those of us who can't.

lapushka
September 29th, 2018, 11:47 AM
Yeah, this is quite the thread zombie!

As to the off-topic derail: Using soap and brushing your teeth does not always mean you won't smell. I had this roommate once who just reeked. It was a tiny place, so I know she brushed and flossed and heck, we used the same shampoo since there really wasn't room in the tiny shower. Some people just have terrible body chemistry or some real bad underlying dental problems. I have also had roomies who washed their hair daily and still had lank greasy looking hair. (This was way before LHC, so they thought that was just how their hair was and that they had this awful ugly hair. :( ) I have had other roomies who did WO or like me just didn't shower every day and some of them didn't smell at all. You can't always assume!

Very important point! And I agree. My body gets washed every day, just not my limbs (arms twice a week, legs once a week). I have a special cream to go on the legs that "washes", it is for people in hospice and who can't get out of bed, a special cream by Tena (it is a wash cream). And I rub that on there the other days. I don't smell. My legs are just that dry and they hurt like heck (I have chronic nerve pain in both legs, tippy toes to hips).

ravenskey
September 29th, 2018, 12:37 PM
This is totally derailing the thread from its original purpose but continuing the topic of hygiene - I gave up shampoo this June and now have to wash way less often but even when using sulfates, I could run my nails over my scalp the very next day and end up with a load of sebum under them.

This wasn't because I needed to wash - indeed my hair would be as dry as a bone and my scalp would feel fine - it's just the way my hair and scalp are.

As for hair smelling like "hair", well...no kidding. IT'S HAIR. Is it that unusual that hair smells like what it is? :confused:
Reminds me of when people say that my dogs smell like wet dogs after they've been in the rain, no s*** people!

guska
September 29th, 2018, 01:05 PM
I did WO for a whole year, last year. Basically the only "product" that ever touched my hair was water. No shampoo, conditioner, oil etc. And I was able to wash my hair once a week, without looking dirty/greasy. My hair and scalp is naturally pretty dry so WO was a good alternative for me. But I was pretty self conscious about smelling disgusting, tbh. My friends said that my hair smelled "like weird fruit" :lol: I don't know if that was meant as a compliment or not.

I'm East Asian though, and my sweat doesn't smell (we lack some genes that produces body odor). I've worn bras for two weeks straight without washing them, and guess what, they still smelled like laundry detergent after those two weeks. Disgusting? Yes, not very hygienic but it's pretty fascinating :)

Ylva
September 29th, 2018, 01:21 PM
As to the off-topic derail: Using soap and brushing your teeth does not always mean you won't smell. I had this roommate once who just reeked. It was a tiny place, so I know she brushed and flossed and heck, we used the same shampoo since there really wasn't room in the tiny shower. Some people just have terrible body chemistry or some real bad underlying dental problems. I have also had roomies who washed their hair daily and still had lank greasy looking hair. (This was way before LHC, so they thought that was just how their hair was and that they had this awful ugly hair. :( ) I have had other roomies who did WO or like me just didn't shower every day and some of them didn't smell at all. You can't always assume!

So true!

I've been washing my body (except armpits occasionally) with just water for years. When I first met my boyfriend IRL, he was "impressed" by the scent I carried. He later described it as a very pleasant scent that he could clearly detect but it wasn't bothersome in any way. He was so surprised when I told him I didn't wear any perfume or anything, just a very mild deodorant.

Alex Lou
September 29th, 2018, 05:19 PM
I like the smell of hair. On myself and other people. I've heard people complain that they have an unpleasant scalp odor, but I've never been close to someone with such a problem.

Now, I do have the genes for body odor, which is why I clean my armpits with soap. But my legs and arms don't need soap and I don't use any there. They don't produce much oil and there's no bad-smelling bacteria.

cjk
September 29th, 2018, 09:37 PM
There is a difference between cleansing or cleansing your hair, and shampooing your hair.

Shampoo is just the most common way to do it.

If you MUST tell someone, I've found that the phrase "I wash away any contaminants with water." is better received than saying "I don't wash my hair."