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Luminaria
February 5th, 2013, 06:03 PM
I used soap (african black soap 2x, Trader Joes honey soap 1x) to wash my hair around a month ago. I alternated with Trader Joes Tea Tree shampoo in between the soap washes. Around 2~3 weeks ago, my hair started feeling rough and sandy. I clarified last week with Kinky Curly come clean and used knot today without any other leave ins. Yesterday, I clarified with Kinky Curly come clean and followed with an acv rinse. When my hair dried, it felt sandy/rough still. Is this damage? What should I do? Shoiuld I make a mask? Thanks in advance for any help. UPDATE: I decided to clarify again with Kinky Curly come clean and followed with an acv rinse. It still feels grainy and a little stretchy. Clarifying isn't helping much. Maybe chelating will help? If so, does anyone know of any natural chelators?

Amygirl8
February 5th, 2013, 06:09 PM
Sometimes I find I get a sorta of rough feeling the days I wash just because my hair is dry and lacks oils.
I usually combat this with a couple of drops of mineral oil, it softens up the hair very nicely for me and makes it feel much better.

If MO doesn't work maybe you should try a mask or a deep conditioning treatment, just to see if it helps :]

lapushka
February 5th, 2013, 06:24 PM
I used soap (african black soap 2x, Trader Joes honey soap 1x) to wash my hair around a month ago. I alternated with Trader Joes Tea Tree shampoo in between the soap washes. Around 2~3 weeks ago, my hair started feeling rough and sandy. I clarified last week with Kinky Curly come clean and used knot today without any other leave ins. Yesterday, I clarified with Kinky Curly come clean and followed with an acv rinse. When my hair dried, it felt sandy/rough still. Is this damage? What should I do? Shoiuld I make a mask? Thanks in advance for any help.

Isn't Kinky Curly a sulfate free shampoo, in which case it might not be enough for clarifying. You would need a harsh shampoo, sulfate shampoo without silicones for that.

torrilin
February 5th, 2013, 06:33 PM
Most soaps are fairly alkaline, in the p.H of 8-10 range if I'm remembering right. Most adult humans have a skin p.H more in the 5-6 range. Human hair is mostly made up of keratin which is a protein, and proteins will eventually dissolve in alkaline solutions, but they usually do pretty ok with acids. (big overgeneralization here, since a strongly acidic solution will dissolve damn near anything, but for stuff that's not trying to dissolve skin, it's good enough)

So likely your hair has reacted some with the soap and is now damaged.

Not all stuff sold as "soap" is actually soap. The US's label laws on soap are less clear than one might like, so you can have 3 similar soaps with wildly different ingredients lists even tho they're made using the same basic ingredients. And a lot of stuff that's labeled soap doesn't have anything but detergents in it... so the whole situation winds up being super duper confusing. I'd read the ingredients labels on the products you used carefully to double check that they do actually contain soap. Products that are all or largely detergent based will usually be formulated to have a p.H similar to human skin if they're intended for use by humans, so you shouldn't get chemical damage from them.

Luminaria
February 7th, 2013, 01:13 AM
Sometimes I find I get a sorta of rough feeling the days I wash just because my hair is dry and lacks oils. I usually combat this with a couple of drops of mineral oil, it softens up the hair very nicely for me and makes it feel much better. If MO doesn't work maybe you should try a mask or a deep conditioning treatment, just to see if it helps :] It was a little better when I sealed with olive oil. I might start using masks again.

Luminaria
February 7th, 2013, 01:17 AM
Isn't Kinky Curly a sulfate free shampoo, in which case it might not be enough for clarifying. You would need a harsh shampoo, sulfate shampoo without silicones for that. That shampoo is harsh...I mean my hair feels like straw and super tangly after using it. It has a sulfonate in it, which I've heard can be as harsh as sulfates. Are only sulfate shampoos clarifying?

Luminaria
February 7th, 2013, 01:32 AM
Most soaps are fairly alkaline, in the p.H of 8-10 range if I'm remembering right. Most adult humans have a skin p.H more in the 5-6 range. Human hair is mostly made up of keratin which is a protein, and proteins will eventually dissolve in alkaline solutions, but they usually do pretty ok with acids. (big overgeneralization here, since a strongly acidic solution will dissolve damn near anything, but for stuff that's not trying to dissolve skin, it's good enough) So likely your hair has reacted some with the soap and is now damaged. Not all stuff sold as "soap" is actually soap. The US's label laws on soap are less clear than one might like, so you can have 3 similar soaps with wildly different ingredients lists even tho they're made using the same basic ingredients. And a lot of stuff that's labeled soap doesn't have anything but detergents in it... so the whole situation winds up being super duper confusing. I'd read the ingredients labels on the products you used carefully to double check that they do actually contain soap. Products that are all or largely detergent based will usually be formulated to have a p.H similar to human skin if they're intended for use by humans, so you shouldn't get chemical damage from them. The ingredients do not list any detergents, so I'm sure they are real soaps. It's funny how detergent bars are sometimes labeled as soap. Though, I now see alot of them being called 'beauty bars.' It might be my water reacting with the soap or soap film. It was my first time using soap on my hair, so I'm not sure if it involves a certain method/dilution. Aren't they similar to shampoo bars? Does damage worsen with use?

Agnieszka
February 7th, 2013, 06:33 AM
I probably won't be any help here, but once I bought fair trade/organic african soap and used it to wash my face. Straight away after first use my face was red and burning like someone put some kind of acid peel on it. I know I am not allergic to anything and used shea butter to moisturise my skin and it was fine. I believe african soap was made of shea butter. I have never had any reaction to anything in my life before. Not sure how to explain it, maybe it was something to do with Ph??? Or maybe it was just a one off faulty product.

Luminaria
February 8th, 2013, 12:19 AM
I probably won't be any help here, but once I bought fair trade/organic african soap and used it to wash my face. Straight away after first use my face was red and burning like someone put some kind of acid peel on it. I know I am not allergic to anything and used shea butter to moisturise my skin and it was fine. I believe african soap was made of shea butter. I have never had any reaction to anything in my life before. Not sure how to explain it, maybe it was something to do with Ph??? Or maybe it was just a one off faulty product. That happened to me too! I washed my face with african soap and it made my face super dry and irritated. Perhaps it is very cleansing by nature.

lapushka
February 8th, 2013, 11:10 AM
That shampoo is harsh...I mean my hair feels like straw and super tangly after using it. It has a sulfonate in it, which I've heard can be as harsh as sulfates. Are only sulfate shampoos clarifying?

I think it might be a case of the harsher the shampoo, the more it clarifies.

torrilin
February 8th, 2013, 01:28 PM
The ingredients do not list any detergents, so I'm sure they are real soaps. It's funny how detergent bars are sometimes labeled as soap. Though, I now see alot of them being called 'beauty bars.' It might be my water reacting with the soap or soap film. It was my first time using soap on my hair, so I'm not sure if it involves a certain method/dilution. Aren't they similar to shampoo bars? Does damage worsen with use?

I think you're asking a lot of good and not necessarily straightforward questions here.

As far as harsh products go... I'd tend to say harsh, drying or tangle increasing are not all the same thing. Some detergents that are considered very mild give my hair the most nightmarish tangles (cocopropymidol betaine if I'm remembering the spelling right), and some detergents that are considered very harsh leave my hair nearly tangle free (sodium laureth sulfate is a good one for me). The main detergent in Oil of Olay's sensitive skin body wash is considered very gentle, but it also happens to do a *really* good job removing excess dead skin on me even compared to sodium laureth sulfate products. Doesn't cause tangle problems in my hair either. In general, I'd say it's a bad idea to use products that cause increased tangles, but increased tangles are not necessarily a sign that the product is drying or hard on your hair in a chemical way.

You're probably familiar with the line "the dose makes the poison." I'm a bit weird, and I am prone to water poisoning or hypotremia. It means my body doesn't have enough electrolytes to work, and because of the way my body reacts, I'd just keep drinking more water and making it worse. It freaks out my doctors but good! So just like I need to alternate plain water with electrolytes, most personal care products are best used in moderation. The hard part is figuring out the *right* moderation. Since I'm having pizza for lunch, I can have a couple of glasses of plain water in a row. But most of the time I have to alternate plain water and water with electrolytes of some sort. Most people don't have to fuss over every glass of water, but I can't go by what most people do, or I'd end up in a hospital on IV fluids :). So with washing, you'll have to experiment judiciously and figure out what works.

Most shampoo bars (not all) are soap. I don't think soap on hair is bad in and of itself. The point where it's a problem is if you're having p.H issues (either due to lack of an acid rinse, or due to the formulation not suiting you). If the soap is damaging your hair, it's doing so by reacting with your hair chemically. Instead of bonding with dead skin cells, oil and dust, the soap is bonding with your hair and carrying bits of it off. (we're talking at a really tiny level here obviously) Even that isn't necessarily a problem... just the physical act of combing your hair where no hairs appear to break or be damaged is still damaging. On a certain level, everything you do to your hair is damaging. So the trick is figuring out what's the right set of compromises for you. You can't prevent all damage.

For most cleansers, I find my very dry skin does best if I listen to the Dr. Bonner's bottle and dilute! dilute! dilute! Doesn't matter whether it's mild or super strong, I don't need tons to get clean. Other people have more oily skin and might use more. Doesn't mean they're wrong, or I'm wrong. Just means we're different. I actually wind up reading a lot of threads aimed at curlies and super curlies to get ideas for improving, because my skin tends to be similarly dry, and while my hair is really straight, it's also really fine. While I probably could finagle things so a soap based routine would work for me, it'd be a bit more work than my current routine, and I'm lazy.

Luminaria
February 11th, 2013, 03:26 AM
I think you're asking a lot of good and not necessarily straightforward questions here. As far as harsh products go... I'd tend to say harsh, drying or tangle increasing are not all the same thing. Some detergents that are considered very mild give my hair the most nightmarish tangles (cocopropymidol betaine if I'm remembering the spelling right), and some detergents that are considered very harsh leave my hair nearly tangle free (sodium laureth sulfate is a good one for me). The main detergent in Oil of Olay's sensitive skin body wash is considered very gentle, but it also happens to do a *really* good job removing excess dead skin on me even compared to sodium laureth sulfate products. Doesn't cause tangle problems in my hair either. In general, I'd say it's a bad idea to use products that cause increased tangles, but increased tangles are not necessarily a sign that the product is drying or hard on your hair in a chemical way. You're probably familiar with the line "the dose makes the poison." I'm a bit weird, and I am prone to water poisoning or hypotremia. It means my body doesn't have enough electrolytes to work, and because of the way my body reacts, I'd just keep drinking more water and making it worse. It freaks out my doctors but good! So just like I need to alternate plain water with electrolytes, most personal care products are best used in moderation. The hard part is figuring out the *right* moderation. Since I'm having pizza for lunch, I can have a couple of glasses of plain water in a row. But most of the time I have to alternate plain water and water with electrolytes of some sort. Most people don't have to fuss over every glass of water, but I can't go by what most people do, or I'd end up in a hospital on IV fluids :). So with washing, you'll have to experiment judiciously and figure out what works. Most shampoo bars (not all) are soap. I don't think soap on hair is bad in and of itself. The point where it's a problem is if you're having p.H issues (either due to lack of an acid rinse, or due to the formulation not suiting you). If the soap is damaging your hair, it's doing so by reacting with your hair chemically. Instead of bonding with dead skin cells, oil and dust, the soap is bonding with your hair and carrying bits of it off. (we're talking at a really tiny level here obviously) Even that isn't necessarily a problem... just the physical act of combing your hair where no hairs appear to break or be damaged is still damaging. On a certain level, everything you do to your hair is damaging. So the trick is figuring out what's the right set of compromises for you. You can't prevent all damage. For most cleansers, I find my very dry skin does best if I listen to the Dr. Bonner's bottle and dilute! dilute! dilute! Doesn't matter whether it's mild or super strong, I don't need tons to get clean. Other people have more oily skin and might use more. Doesn't mean they're wrong, or I'm wrong. Just means we're different. I actually wind up reading a lot of threads aimed at curlies and super curlies to get ideas for improving, because my skin tends to be similarly dry, and while my hair is really straight, it's also really fine. While I probably could finagle things so a soap based routine would work for me, it'd be a bit more work than my current routine, and I'm lazy. Thanks for your lengthy response! Clarifying doesn't seem to get rid of that rough feeling. I guess it binded with my hard water or something. Hopefully it'll wear off. I tried diluting shampoo, but it doesn't seem to clean my scalp well. I think I fared way better with no poo. Shampoo dries my hair out more than baking soda.