Honey and conditioner as a permanent washing method?

[karmela]

Hi there everyone...

So delighted tonight and very surprised indeed...I mixed two parts honey to one part conditioner and left it on for forty minutes. It rinsed out much easier than it had when I just used the same conditioner on its own and it has really cleansed my hair beautifully.

I was just wondering if anybody uses this or SMT as their regular washing method and clarifies if they get build-up.

I'm thinking this may be my next experiment!

[pariate]

Oh that sounds good! I wonder why the honey made it easier to rinse the conditioner? I know lots of people with sensitive skin use honey as a skin cleanser. I'd be interested to hear if anyone uses it as a hair cleansing aid.

[karmela]

Hi Pariate...

It was really strange and unexpected. The cheap non-cone conditioner took ages to rinse out on its own. I thought it would take even longer with honey but it was quite the opposite...

[wintersun99]

Have you seen this thread?

http://archive.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=53658&highlight=wash+hair+with+honey

[karmela]

Thank you wintersun99...will check it out x

[Saranne772]

I wouldnt recommend it over a long period of time. When diluted honey releases hydrogen peroxide. I noticed that after 6 to 8 months of washes of 2 parts conditioner and 1 part honey that my hair was getting damaged and bleached in places.

My hair does love honey (and its soothing when scalp is sore) but I cant take it regularly over prolonged periods.

[RedRose]

This sounds really interesting - I've been washing my hair with honey added to help fade some colour at Nightshades suggestion, but it was mixed with baby shampoo not conditioner. My hair feels really soft and shiny and I found that rinsing out the shampoo was easier than normal!

With regard to Saranne772's experience: as I understand it, if you microwave the honey then it loses its bleaching capacity but it would still make your hair nice and soft, right? As bleach damage is definitely the enemy of beautiful hair!

[wintersun99]

I wouldnt recommend it over a long period of time. When diluted honey releases hydrogen peroxide. I noticed that after 6 to 8 months of washes of 2 parts conditioner and 1 part honey that my hair was getting damaged and bleached in places.

This has not been my experience and I have been using honey/conditioner and honey/water mixes since Oct. 07 to intentionally lighten my henna/indigo'd hair. No damage to report, only awesome condition and shine. If you are worried about possible lightening, simply lightly heat the honey before adding conditioner/shampoo/what-have-you and that should counteract it's natural lightening ability.

[Saranne772]

This has not been my experience and I have been using honey/conditioner and honey/water mixes since Oct. 07 to intentionally lighten my henna/indigo'd hair. No damage to report, only awesome condition and shine. If you are worried about possible lightening, simply lightly heat the honey before adding conditioner/shampoo/what-have-you and that should counteract it's natural lightening ability.
I think it might have been because my hair was already very light naturally.

And Im glad to hear about the microwaving- Id not heard of that before! I may go have a honey rinse in a bit! ;)

[pariate]

I'm interested to hear about heating the honey to diminish its lightening properties. I stopped using honey because I was worried about lightening my hair! :rolleyes:

[wintersun99]

I think it might have been because my hair was already very light naturally.

And Im glad to hear about the microwaving- Id not heard of that before! I may go have a honey rinse in a bit! ;)


I'm interested to hear about heating the honey to diminish its lightening properties. I stopped using honey because I was worried about lightening my hair! :rolleyes:

Ktani has all the links on the Honey thread, hopefully she'll pop in here and provide them... :)

[xrosiex]

I never thought of using honey mixed with my conditioner to wash my hair. How often do you wash?

[GlassEyes]

I BELIEVE Cinnamon hair does this, but I'm not sure.

I've considered, but never followed through with this idea.

[ktani]

Honey and conditioner used to wash hair would not produce enough peroxide normally in that amount of time, to lighten hair, IMO. Honey when diluted, slowly releases peroxide. Honey and conditioner used to lighten hair as a recipe, has been reported to be unreliable, although it can work, very gradually, in most cases.

In the original Honey thread, Maluhia washed her hair with an unmicrowaved SMT, minus the aloe gel (which contains Vitamin C, which depletes peroxide), leaving it on for an hour each time. It did lighten her colour-treated hair over 1 month, using it every 3 days. The lightening was unintentional on her part. Her recipe became a honey lightening recipe. Here are her results. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=18809&postcount=38

Conditioner is no longer recommended for honey lightening. It is unreliable because some conditioners can contain ingredients that interfere with honey lightening and conditioner does not contain enough water to fully dilute honey. The results reported were very gradual, generally. The new recipes have been reported to work much faster and better, minus, conditioner. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=198570&postcount=1767 http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=202532&postcount=1799

Honey lightening has not been reported to damage hair in 5 Honey threads to date, including the current one, even when a recipe has been left on the hair for hours at a time, over months. IMO, there is research to support reports here on these boards, that the naturally produced hydrogen peroxide in honey, is non damaging.

What has been reported in the Honey threads and elsewhere on these boards is dry hair and crispy ends from using honey, which is a honey residue result, (Maluhia followed her SMT with a vinegar rinse and reported soft, shiny hair).

If honey and conditioner is used as the only shampoo, and the honey in question leaves a residue (honey residue levels vary), and no vinegar rinse is used, the result could and has been interpreted as damage. Shampooing removes honey residue better than vinegar from reports, and when this is done, no lasting effects from the residue have been reported.

Flavonoids, (which are also chelators), in honey lightening recipe ingredients including honey, have been been clinically shown to protect cells from hydrogen peroxide damage.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495

And P&G, which makes Pantene, applied for a patent in 2002, because they found that chelators protect hair from H202 damage.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showthread.php?t=10495&page=2

[Katze]

Ok, I'm going to be the sole disagreeing voice here. :)

I've used honey as a hair wash for a while now, on and off. It does get my scalp clean and gets rid of crusties (honey is mildly antibacterial and antifungal) but does NOT lighten my hair. Nor does it lighten BF's hair; I just did a non-heated, diluted honey SMT on him, left it on for about four hours, and his hair is noticeably DARKER.

If I SMT my hair, it looks *shinier* the first day, but this shine fades.

With all respect to the adherents to this hypothesis (honey lightens hair) it is just that - a hypothesis. My chemist friends, as well as a honey importer I know, tell me that the amount of peroxide in honey is at most so minimal that the difference would be, at best, negligable.

The problem, for me, with using conditioner as a permanent washing method is that my fine hair and sensitive, prone-to-eczema-scalp did not get clean. Add honey to this and the likelihood of buildup (for me anyway) means an unhappy scalp.

However, when I first came to LHC I was doing an SMT after every wash, and this really helped re-hydrate and soften my seriously damaged hair. BUT, I was washing with shampoo, then SMT-ing, or doing an CWC with SMT as the final "C" - just left on for several hours.

feel free to PM me about my experience!

Katze

[ktani]

I added pictures of Maluhia and kokuryu reported results to my previous post, to show the difference between using conditioner in a honey lightening recipe and an example of results with the new recipes. http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=239580&postcount=14

The full Pictures Post is in my signature.

[Ohio Sky]

I did an SMT/CO mix sorta thing for my last wash, which was yesterday morning. I left an SMT on my length overnight and just CO on the scalp.

I Co'ed in the shower as everyone says they actually get SMT out better with CO. My crown hair looks great, and the length is very shiny but a bit piecey like it didn't wash out all the way. I rinsed really, really well so short of using poo I don't know how to get it out any better but that defeats the whole purpose of using it as a wash method.

[ktani]

Ohio Sky

A vinegar rinse may help the piecey look. It really depends on the honey and how much residue it can leave on the hair. Sometimes it has been reported that shampoo is the only way to remove it.

If you added aloe gel to your SMT, the Vitamin C content would help deplete the peroxide honey produces but microwaving an SMT, (over 10 seconds, under 1 minute is best IMO), which is part of the original instructions for using one, destroys the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide.

[ktani]

When a honey lightening recipe has been used with the things that are known to negatively affect hydrogen peroxide; Vitamin C, minerals, heat, the wrong dilution (to get the maximum peroxide level from honey), reported results have not been all that good.

When a honey lightening recipe is used without Vitamin C, heat and minerals, and with the correct 4 to 1 dilution, and the hair is kept very wet while a treatment is on the hair, the reported results have been excellent, IMO. There is no doubt in my mind that the hair has been lightened, from results that I have seen and that others have confirmed (those who have reported and others who they report have commented in real life).

The reported results indicate to me, that the hypothesis that it is hydrogen peroxide at work, is supported.

"Although .... level of hydrogen peroxide in honey .... very low it is still effective as an antimicrobial agent." (very low compared to conventional peroxide) I believe that from the reported results in Honey, the same thing applies to the peroxide in honey and lightening hair. There are enough reported results to support that honey can lighten hair, significantly in some cases.
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html

Some reported successful results are less easy to determine from pictures than others, but those are the exceptions and I do not include them in the Pictures Post.

Different honeys produce different levels of hydrogen peroxide. Some honeys produce very little and trying a different honey has made the difference in results reported in Honey.

Conditioners have been unreliable when used in honey lightening recipes. Ingredients in certain conditioners like Aussie Cleanse and Mend, for example, interfered with honey lightening but when an alternate conditioner was used with the same honey and recipe, results were reported that the hair did lighten. It got to be a challenge for people to find the right conditioner and results reported without any conditioner in a recipe, have been faster and much better.

[Ohio Sky]

Ohio Sky

A vinegar rinse may help the piecey look. It really depends on the honey and how much residue it can leave on the hair. Sometimes it has been reported that shampoo is the only way to remove it.

If you added aloe gel to your SMT, the Vitamin C content would help deplete the peroxide honey produces but microwaving an SMT, (over 10 seconds, under 1 minute is best IMO), which is part of the original instructions for using one, destroys the enzyme in honey that produces peroxide.

Vinegar rinses have been a huge fail for me every go round. I heard a lot of people say they got SMTs out better with CO than with shampoo, so that's why I did that, but I suppose more experimenting is in order.

[ktani]

Vinegar rinses have been a huge fail for me every go round. I heard a lot of people say they got SMTs out better with CO than with shampoo, so that's why I did that, but I suppose more experimenting is in order.

Ohio Sky

With some honey lightening recipe results, vinegar rinses did not budge honey residue either, but several shampoos did work.

I can only think that it is the particular honey and residue.

I suggest trying a different honey next time.

[sipnsun]

I got that recipe off FrannyG's website and loved it. I had never used honey before and I usually shampoo my hair. On the days I use the honey/conditioner I don't have to shampoo because it leaves my hair so clean. I love the shine too.

[Ohio Sky]

Ohio Sky

With some honey lightening recipe results, vinegar rinses did not budge honey residue either, but several shampoos did work.

I can only think that it is the particular honey and residue.

I suggest trying a different honey next time.

Is there a particular kind of honey you have found to wash out of the hair easier, Ktani?

[ktani]

Is there a particular kind of honey you have found to wash out of the hair easier, Ktani?

Ohio Sky

I wish it were that easy.

Residue has been reported with both pasteurized and raw honeys.

Some people have reported no residue.

I will go back and check out Honey. I seem to recall one brand that was reported to leave none.

ETA: It was GlennaGirl who reported no residue but she never got back to me with the name. I will send her a pm.

[Ohio Sky]

It's probably one I can't get here! LOL

Thanks for sharing all the research you've done on this! :)

[ktani]

It's probably one I can't get here! LOL

Thanks for sharing all the research you've done on this! :)

Ohio Sky

You are most welcome. I sent the pm but I think that she is away right now.

I will do a shout out in Honey.

I do not think that it is a good idea to use honey only shampoo recipes because of the residue issue.

However, the same can be said about CO'ing. From what I understand, clarifying is required with that too once in a while.

[PixieChick11]

Honey is very good for your hair.
It makes it shiny, it conditions, and I heard it can make your hair lighter, I don't know I tried that but it didn't work for me. :)

[PixieChick11]

When a honey lightening recipe has been used with the things that are known to negatively affect hydrogen peroxide; Vitamin C, minerals, heat, the wrong dilution (to get the maximum peroxide level from honey), reported results have not been all that good.

When a honey lightening recipe is used without Vitamin C, heat and minerals, and with the correct 4 to 1 dilution, and the hair is kept very wet while a treatment is on the hair, the reported results have been excellent, IMO. There is no doubt in my mind that the hair has been lightened, from results that I have seen and that others have confirmed (those who have reported and others who they report have commented in real life).

The reported results indicate to me, that the hypothesis that it is hydrogen peroxide at work, is supported.

"Although .... level of hydrogen peroxide in honey .... very low it is still effective as an antimicrobial agent." (very low compared to conventional peroxide) I believe that from the reported results in Honey, the same thing applies to the peroxide in honey and lightening hair. There are enough reported results to support that honey can lighten hair, significantly in some cases.
http://www.worldwidewounds.com/2001/november/Molan/honey-as-topical-agent.html

Some reported successful results are less easy to determine from pictures than others, but those are the exceptions and I do not include them in the Pictures Post.

Different honeys produce different levels of hydrogen peroxide. Some honeys produce very little and trying a different honey has made the difference in results reported in Honey.

Conditioners have been unreliable when used in honey lightening recipes. Ingredients in certain conditioners like Aussie Cleanse and Mend, for example, interfered with honey lightening but when an alternate conditioner was used with the same honey and recipe, results were reported that the hair did lighten. It got to be a challenge for people to find the right conditioner and results reported without any conditioner in a recipe, have been faster and much better.



Oh, lol, nevermind. Hmm, that's actually quite interesting.

[ktani]

Honey is very good for your hair.
It makes it shiny, it conditions, and I heard it can make your hair lighter, I don't know I tried that but it didn't work for me. :)

PixieChick

Welcome to LHC.

Here is where to start with information on honey lightening.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=1661&postcount=1

I put the latest information in the first post. The Honey thread is 200 pages and counting.

[GlennaGirl]

Ohio Sky

I wish it were that easy.

Residue has been reported with both pasteurized and raw honeys.

Some people have reported no residue.

I will go back and check out Honey. I seem to recall one brand that was reported to leave none.

ETA: It was GlennaGirl who reported no residue but she never got back to me with the name. I will send her a pm.

Hi, girls! Oh, shoot, it was just a Stater Brothers brand. (The store, Stater Brothers.) I don't know if it was called "Stater Brothers Honey" or some other name, but that's what it was. Just a really really cheap brand.

However...I've really never had residue anyway, even the one or two times I tried a more expensive honey, so I may be the exception rather than the rule.

[ktani]

Hi, girls! Oh, shoot, it was just a Stater Brothers brand. (The store, Stater Brothers.) I don't know if it was called "Stater Brothers Honey" or some other name, but that's what it was. Just a really really cheap brand.

However...I've really never had residue anyway, even the one or two times I tried a more expensive honey, so I may be the exception rather than the rule.

GlennaGirl

My error and my apologies.

You did give me the brand but not the specific honey. I did add the brand to the Successful Honeys List here.
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=119128&postcount=856itamin

Your results. This was before the 4 to 1 dilution was corrected as well and you used conditioner with a few honey lightenings.

GlennaGirl - recipe details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111762&postcount=643

GlennaGirl - on henndigoed hair ("Catherine's (tapdancinglizard) henna. The indigo was from her, too") - the 4 to 1 dilution with ground cinnamon
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111943&postcount=653

GlennaGirl - picture details
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=111987&postcount=656

GlennaGirl on the number of honey lighten treatments she has done
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112157&postcount=673

GlennaGirl - on her colour change with the 4 to 1 dilution
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=112224&postcount=676

GlennaGirl - latest signature picture - henna following - the 4 to 1 dilution - 2 more treatments - 1 with ground cinnamon, 1 with ground cardamom - 1 with no conditioner
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/showpost.php?p=133292&postcount=6

[Cinnamon Hair]

Hi there everyone...

So delighted tonight and very surprised indeed...I mixed two parts honey to one part conditioner and left it on for forty minutes. It rinsed out much easier than it had when I just used the same conditioner on its own and it has really cleansed my hair beautifully.

I was just wondering if anybody uses this or SMT as their regular washing method and clarifies if they get build-up.

I'm thinking this may be my next experiment!


I BELIEVE Cinnamon hair does this, but I'm not sure.

I've considered, but never followed through with this idea.

I do use honey regularly in my washing routine. Not every single time, but very often..I'd guess about 4 days per week I use honey on my hair. Sometimes I mix equal parts (or a little less) honey and conditioner in my hand then apply it to the length. Other times I use about a half dollar coin size amount of honey after rinsing the conditioner but before towel drying. I haven't noticed any lightening but I have a lot of natural blond streaks throughout the under layer of my hair anyway, so it would be hard to tell --there hasn't been any significant/visible lightening effect at least.

[ktani]

I do use honey regularly in my washing routine. Not every single time, but very often..I'd guess about 4 days per week I use honey on my hair. Sometimes I mix equal parts (or a little less) honey and conditioner in my hand then apply it to the length. Other times I use about a half dollar coin size amount of honey after rinsing the conditioner but before towel drying. I haven't noticed any lightening but I have a lot of natural blond streaks throughout the under layer of my hair anyway, so it would be hard to tell --there hasn't been any significant/visible lightening effect at least.

Cinnamon Hair

Used this way, it would not lighten, IMO. It was always used with conditioner for lightening covered, and left on the hair for at least an hour or longer. Not all conditioners work well with honey for lightening and some honeys have very low peroxide levels.

[Cinnamon Hair]

Cinnamon Hair

Used this way, it would not lighten, IMO. It was always used with conditioner for lightening covered, and left on the hair for at least an hour or longer. Not all conditioners work well with honey for lightening and some honeys have very low peroxide levels.

Ktani, thanks for your input. I'm not a big reader of the honey thread, so I could be wrong and please let me know if I am, but I thought one of the ways to lighten with honey was to use it alone on wet (but not dripping) hair as a leave-in, which is what I do occasionally. Is that true?
I don't use honey for its lightening properties, I like it for the added moisture and shine.

[akka naeda]

Yes, I did. I used an SMT mix and had no problems with it for almost a year. The reason I stopped is because it was making my scalp gunky, so now I put the SMT mix on the dry length and let it sit, then wash my scalp with shampoo, which since I wash upside down over the bath with a shower attachments causes a very diluted amount to dribble down the length, and then I rinse the whole lot with water. And sometimes add an extra condish after. If I didn't have the problems with my scalp I'd still be washing with just the SMT mix now.
Provided you rinse it out well so there's no gunk, and provided your scalp can cope you should be OK.

[ktani]

Ktani, thanks for your input. I'm not a big reader of the honey thread, so I could be wrong and please let me know if I am, but I thought one of the ways to lighten with honey was to use it alone on wet (but not dripping) hair as a leave-in, which is what I do occasionally. Is that true?
I don't use honey for its lightening properties, I like it for the added moisture and shine.

Cinnamon Hair

You are welcome.

No, using honey as a leave-in on wet hair would not lighten it IMO.

It takes 1 hour, with the correct 4 to 1 dilution for a honey to reach its maximum peroxide level http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/H2O2.html. With honey on wet hair as a leave-in, the honey would stop producing peroxide as the hair dries, even though it might start to release a very small amount of peroxide in contact with the water that is there. Honey slowly releases peroxide on dilution.

The hair must be kept very wet, (by securely covering it preferably) and the honey fully diluted, in order for it to lighten hair more than slightly or at all, based on reports in Honey, whether a properly diluted treatment has been left to sit in advance and is at full strength when applied to the hair, or applied right away and left to produce peroxide in the course of 1 hour. And again, results depend on the honey used.

[Cinnamon Hair]

Ktani, thanks for taking the time to reply. Now I understand, thank you!

[ktani]

Ktani, thanks for taking the time to reply. Now I understand, thank you!

Cinnamon Hair

You are most welcome.