jabakusum taila anyone?

[ktani]

the bolded(no size modification )

Lol @ chemical soup. I use chemical soup products and natural ones as well. My hair and scalp like both, it just depends on the ingredients. For ex: My hair and scalp like "regular" chemical shampoo -or- shikakai. My hair also likes "regular" conditioners and using oils, but I don't think I can use oils exclusively since I experience harsh winters where I'm out and it dries my hair out.




While I agree 100% that eveyone should take into account what works for their own hair and how they care for it when choosing what products and ingredients to use, I have to disagree about mineral oil just being a cheap filler.

Yes, it's inexpensive to produce and use, but it has it's own benefits & deficits like any other ingredient. On the same token water is a cheap ingredient but I wouldn't say that it has no benefits just because it's cheap.

I never said that everyone who avoids certain ingredients only did so due to ignorance. But it happens quite frequently that people will shun the products that have been working for them for however many years because they contain so called "bad stuff" as opposed to the so called "good stuff." Then they post again a few weeks or months later not understanding why they're having so many problems with their hair that they never experienced before when they're now treating it "better than ever."

I don't know, maybe I've been on here too long and have tried too many products that contain "good stuff" and cost an arm and a leg, but don't do squat for my hair.

I guess we all have to go through our own trial and error, but if I could help one person to not have to go through that then I would.

ETA: Oops, just saw Ktani's post which explains the benefits of mineral oil better than I ever could.

Your post is great! You explained the issues very well.

I only slightly disagree with one part. There are fairly few natural oils (other than coconut oil) that actually penetrate hair. Of those that do most of them do not penetrate the hair shaft by much. So, the preference for them over mineral oil is moot on that basis.

Personal preference is entirely different.

I totally agree with you about people here giving up products they loved because it has been stated somewhere that the products contain ingredients that are not good for their hair.

I have posted about drying and non drying oils before, over 2 years ago, as I recall. No one responded then. People like you now recognize how what I have written about can apply to what they have experienced, and responded.

[Heidi_234]

Paula Begoun on mineral oil, with references. I do not agree with most of her product reviews but the references she quotes are excellent.

"mineral oil. Clear, odorless oil derived from petroleum that is widely used in cosmetics because it rarely causes allergic reactions and it cannot become a solid and clog pores. ... petroleum is a natural ingredient derived from the earth and that once it becomes mineral oil USP (cosmetics- and pharmaceutical-grade mineral oil), it has no resemblance to the original petroleum. Cosmetics-grade mineral oil and petrolatum are considered the safest, most nonirritating moisturizing ingredients ever found (Sources: Cosmetics & Toiletries, January 2001, page 79; and Cosmetic Dermatology, September 2000, pages 44–46). ... they can keep air off the skin to some extent, but that’s what a good antioxidant is supposed to do; they don’t suffocate skin! ... mineral oil and petrolatum and are also among the most effective moisturizing ingredients available (Source: Cosmetics & Toiletries, February 1998, pages 33–40)."

So, in short, all this person had to say is that this oil isn't harmful, that the unnatural nature of it shouldn't put us off, and it moisturizes (the way any oil will?). Good.

I'm not going to drag into the debate whether it's good or bad. The topic of the thread was jabakusum taila oil. It had mineral oil as the second ingredient, and I pointed it out for other people, who would prefer to avoid it for their own reason, like I do. I personally think the marketing/packaging of this product is very misleading. I think any further debate about mineral oil on its own is somewhat off topic.

[ktani]

That may be, but it still is no good for some people's hair, and anyone who wishes to give it a try should do so with their eyes wide open, and stop using it if they experience problems. It must be great if you can use everything without problems.

I have never said I can use "everything with no problems". I have stated numerous times that is not the case. I have reacted negatively to certain conventional product ingredients and was left with a painful, sore scalp.

I have never reacted badly to mineral oil used in a conventional product though. It is known for being non irritating and not causing allergic reactions. Aside from its moisturizing properties, those are also reasons it is used so frequently in cosmetics.

[virgo75]

Your post is great! You explained the issues very well.

I only slightly disagree with one part. There are fairly few natural oils (other than coconut oil) that actually penetrate hair. Of those that do most of them do not penetrate the hair shaft by much. So, the preference for them over mineral oil is moot on that basis.

Personal preference is entirely different.

I totally agree with you about people here giving up products they loved because it has been stated somewhere that the products contain ingredients that are not good for their hair.

I have posted about drying and non drying oils before, over 2 years ago, as I recall. No one responded then. People like you now recognize how what I have written about can apply to what they have experienced, and responded.

Thank you for the correction. I don't have as much hair care knowledge as you do, just read a little here and there and go on my own experiences. I'm aware of coconut oil penetrating, and possibly olive oil, but I'm not sure about others? I just thought maybe they penetrated more than mineral oil? Either way, I still like some products that contain mineral oil, so I'll just shut up now.

I wish someone would put a warning on products that contain drying oils. For me they = nightmare in a bottle no matter how natural they are.

Thank you for your informative posts as always.

[ktani]

So, in short, all this person had to say is that this oil isn't harmful, that the unnatural nature of it shouldn't put us off, and it moisturizes (the way any oil will?). Good.

I'm not going to drag into the debate whether it's good or bad. The topic of the thread was jabakusum taila oil. It had mineral oil as the second ingredient, and I pointed it out for other people, who would prefer to avoid it for their own reason, like I do. I personally think the marketing/packaging of this product is very misleading. I think any further debate about mineral oil on its own is somewhat off topic.

You were the first to raise this topic when the ingredients list was posted, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...14&postcount=4 Others followed. It is valid to discuss what has been posted and the feelings of those who post.

ETA: I initially missed your link to the 2008 study. Not all oils are equal for moisturizing purposes and that topic has been addressed elsewhere.
Moisturizers Up Skin Cancer in Mice
"The moisturizers did not cause cancer in the mice. That came from their early-life radiation exposure. But the creams did make skin cancers grow faster and more readily. ... The Conney team asked Johnson & Johnson to make them a "custom blend" moisturizer without two ingredients previously linked to skin iritation (sodium lauryl sulfate) and tumor promotion (mineral oil). The custom blend ... did not promote skin cancer. But not all of the products tested use these ingredients, so exactly what -- if anything -- might be linked to cancer isn't known. And it's certainly clear that mouse and human skin are very different."

Response to Ellefson by the authors of the 2008 study
"The major issue concerning our publication is whether or not it indicates a potential cancer risk for the use of moisturizing creams in humans. We have been very conservative in describing the major conclusions of our study, and we have indicated in our paper that we do not know whether our study in SKH-1 mice is relevant for humans. It is regrettable that the press has greatly exaggerated the meaning of our study."

The following study was done after the other studies quoted by the authors of the 2008 mouse study in their response above. What this study is saying is that not all petroleum distillates promote tumor activity diluted in mineral oil. There are other factors involved, which supports the 2008 study results. Not all of the moisturizers tested that promoted tumor activity in the 2008 study contained mineral oil or SLS. There are a number of conventional and natural ingredients that can be severely irritating to both damaged and undamaged skin. Mineral oil USP is not an irritating form of mineral oil. The mouse skin was already damaged and the mice already had cancer in both studies.
The role of dermal irritation in the skin tumor promoting activity of petroleum middle distillates
"The present study was conducted by comparing equal weekly doses of irritating and minimally or nonirritating test materials, to assess whether tumor promotion was a secondary response to these effects. ... When NP, LRPO, or JF were applied in mineral oil diluent, skin irritation was generally ameliorated and few, if any, tumors were produced. SCGO was irritating and produced a significant increase in tumor frequency when administered in mineral-oil diluent. These data indicate that the promotional activity of straight-run PMDs is likely related to chronic irritation at the application site and not to dose. Thus, when used appropriately in the absence of prolonged irritation, these materials should not present a tumorigenic hazard to humans."

Mineral Oil USP MSDS date 2010 May 25
"Carcinogenicity Data: The ingredient(s) of this product is (are) not classed as carcinogenic by ACGIH, IARC, OSHA or NTP.
Reproductive Data: No adverse reproductive effects are anticipated.
Mutagenicity Data: No adverse mutagenic effects are anticipated.
Teratogenicity Data: No adverse teratogenic effects are anticipated.
Respiratory / Skin Sensitization None known."


What has been lost in all of this are the OP's opinions.

banglaminerva has gone back to using the oil she loves because it works well for her (and has for others too) and regrets having stopped using it.

[ktani]

Thank you for the correction. I don't have as much hair care knowledge as you do, just read a little here and there and go on my own experiences. I'm aware of coconut oil penetrating, and possibly olive oil, but I'm not sure about others? I just thought maybe they penetrated more than mineral oil? Either way, I still like some products that contain mineral oil, so I'll just shut up now.

I wish someone would put a warning on products that contain drying oils. For me they = nightmare in a bottle no matter how natural they are.

Thank you for your informative posts as always.

You are most welcome!

There are other natural oils that penetrate the hair more than mineral oil and much, much less than coconut oil. Whether that would benefit the hair or not, as opposed to being a surface oil is questionable and depends on why the oil is being used.

From reports, argan oil has not interfered with conventional dye uptake and lightening and helps increase dye uptake while chelating copper and iron. There is room for both kinds of oils, penetrating and not. Both serve a purpose.

A warning label that a product can be difficult to remove from the hair? I would love to see that, lol.

[Catladyintown]

Ktani could you please point to the article you wrote about drying hair oils. I think it would be helpful to know. I tried checking in the Articles section but with no luck. Also Ktani could you also tells us which oils will penetrate the hair shaft or any other helpful oils. Thank you

[ktani]

Ktani could you please point to the article you wrote about drying hair oils. I think it would be helpful to know. I tried checking in the Articles section but with no luck. Also Ktani could you also tells us which oils will penetrate the hair shaft or any other helpful oils. Thank you

I have posted about drying oils in various threads. Posts 3 and 9 from this thread,
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...ad.php?t=55221 have links.

I addressed drying oils in my blog recently too, http://ktanihairsense.blogspot.com/2...hair-care.html.

As to penetrating oils, this pdf is great, http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2...175-p00192.pdf. I have posted it several times too in different threads.

I cannot fond the study behind this information however. I have just seen the text quoted on several websites. I did try to tack it down without success.
"Coconut oil has the property to penetrate the hair shaft, unlike other oils that remain on the surface of the hair, this oil penetrates three times more than any other oil. It reaches the hair fibre right up to the cortex, which is like the heart of the hair fibre. Mineral oil and Rice bran oil should be avoided since they do not penetrate the hair shaft at all. For Olive oil users there is some bad news, olive oil can only penetrate up to 25% in the hair shaft, while coconut oil can penetrate 90%."
http://soulfulbeauty.com/article.php?n=262

I disagree that surface oils have no value. That is addressed, here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...7&postcount=20 and here http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...8&postcount=30

My initial information on castor oil is slightly off. Cold-pressed castor oil has a low iodine value. It does depend though on whether the oil has been dehydrated, See Page 2, http://www.aseanfood.info/articles/11016258.pdf.

[virgo75]

I have posted about drying oils in various threads. Posts 3 and 9 from this thread,
http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...ad.php?t=55221 have links.

As to penetrating oils, this pdf is great, http://journal.scconline.org/pdf/cc2...175-p00192.pdf. I have posted it several times too in different threads.

I cannot fond the study behind this information however. I have just seen the text quoted on several websites. I did try to tack it down without success.
"Coconut oil has the property to penetrate the hair shaft, unlike other oils that remain on the surface of the hair, this oil penetrates three times more than any other oil. It reaches the hair fibre right up to the cortex, which is like the heart of the hair fibre. Mineral oil and Rice bran oil should be avoided since they do not penetrate the hair shaft at all. For Olive oil users there is some bad news, olive oil can only penetrate up to 25% in the hair shaft, while coconut oil can penetrate 90%."
http://soulfulbeauty.com/article.php?n=262

I disagree that surface oils have no value. That is addressed, here, http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...7&postcount=20 and here http://forums.longhaircommunity.com/...8&postcount=30

Great info!

Thanks for posting these links.

[ktani]

Great info!

Thanks for posting these links.

You are most welcome!