Help please, information wanted on Henna with Sodium Picramate

[pelirojo]

Dear All,
I wanted to wrack your brains about Henna with Sodium Picramate.
I have been looking up alot about Henna before I use it to dye my dar brown hair, which is currently a mahogany type shade through chemical dyes. I mainly use it to colour grey hairs (eep at 20!)
I read that I should only use pure Henna, without metal salts added to avoid irreversible disaster. So I went to a shop and asked for some (it is my local 'hippy' shop selling all sorts of organic and natural brilliant things for skincare etc) I was told that what they sold was, but on closer inspection at home it also includes this Sodium Picramate stuff, but doesn't say how much. The henna I have is 'Henne El Cahira from Hennedrog.
I tried to google the Picramate but all i discovered is that dry it is a low level impact explosive, which was less than helpful!
I'm on a very limited budget so don't really want to buy different stuff if I can get away with it this once, without ruining my hair!
Also, can anyone suggest somewhere I can get value pure good henna in the UK, for next time?
Many thanks in advance for any help you can offer on this!
Pelirojo x

[CindyLea1]

http://www.cosmeticsinfo.org/ingredi...redient_id=906

Here's what I found. Seems to be a red dye probably to enhance the Henna red. I don't know anything about the safety of this material. Others with more experience should be along to help shortly.

[ChloeDharma]

The henna i use for colour has this in it. I've used mostly the same brand for about 6 years now and to be honest not had a problem with it. I'd prefer not to use it ideally but it's the only time i get a decent colour result with henna.....plus i'm a bit lazy.

If you wan't pure henna then Baldwins sell it, i don't know where in the UK you are but the Baldwins shop is on Walworth Road in Elephant and Castle (London) but they do have a website you can order from

[lastnite]

I think Sodium Picramate is a metallic salt. It's supposed to damage your hair if you ever go back to chemical dyes, and it can melt your hair off, but this is just info I got from the hennaforhair site which tends to scare people off of other brands of henna so they can push sales for their own... It seems like people do use sodium picramate hennas with no problems. There's a girl over on the henna thread here that uses it and has excellent results.

[Nightshade]

I think Sodium Picramate is a metallic salt. It's supposed to damage your hair if you ever go back to chemical dyes, and it can melt your hair off, but this is just info I got from the hennaforhair site which tends to scare people off of other brands of henna so they can push sales for their own... It seems like people do use sodium picramate hennas with no problems. There's a girl over on the henna thread here that uses it and has excellent results.

Catherine (owner of H4H) and I may have our differing opinions on henna, but I'll back her to the hilt on this one... she is NOT putting quality information out there to drive people to her henna. She's doing it because so many people hear that "OMG Henna is the DEVIL" from the hairdressers all the time and turn away from henna in general.

And the reason that hairdressers think henna is evil is because of metallic salts like sodium picramate.

Someone buys "natural henna" and then realizes that you don't get the uniform color that you do from a box dye, ditches it, and goes back to chemical color. Or gets a perm. Or gets their hair relaxed. And then their hair dissolves into a smoking green mass and they're freaking out. Then the hairdresser asks the fateful question of, "What did you use on your hair?"

*sob* Henna!


It happens all. the. time.

I've seen it on the H4H forums and I've seen it here. It happens and there is no saving hair that's had that level of chemical reaction happen to it.

I realize a bunch of us sound like henna nazis with the chants of BAQ BAQ, but there's a reason for it.

I guess if someone was 150% sure that they were never going to use another chemical treatment on their hair ever again a henna with metallic salts would be fine, but in the real world people change their minds. Hairdressers screw up and put the wrong things on people's heads. Bad things happen.

(And in my time on LHC and H4H I've seen a TON of people who were really really honestly totally and completly sure they wanted henna and then ask how to get their henna out and their old color back within three months. So I don't take assurances of "I'll never go back to chemical dyes, it's henna only for me!" very seriously unless someone's been hennaing for years.)

I realize you're not going to get BAQ henna for $2/100g, but honestly, there's a reason for it.

The good stuff is worth the cost and worth the fact that someone has checked it over for purity.

[lastnite]

Nightshade, I appreciate all the henna info from Catherine and her site, I have learned alot from it and my post wasn't directed to her personally. It is good to have someone look over the product since I read imports aren't regulated or checked here in the US, but alot of people (on this site and elsewhere) are already using imported Indian and different hair oils and herbs and taking the chance the product is what it says it is and the ingredients list is true. so in a way henna products aren't that much different.

Please don't be offended or take my post the wrong way, I guess it just confuses me to educate people on henna, but then sometimes say all the other brands can possibly be lying about the ingredients. I know H4H has good quality henna and have seen over on the henna thread people getting beautiful color from the Yemeni henna. I understand the sift is finer and dye content has been tested to have higher dye content.

Maybe I'm naive in believing that companies are honest and put all the ingredients on their labels. Like the OP's product lists the metallic salt so they can make a decision to use it with caution or not use it. If the $3 box of henna from the Indian store says it's for body art/mehndi and lists henna as it's only ingredient or 100% henna, it's supposed to be considered BAQ since it can be used for body art... it just seems unethical to me to claim that it's not safe to use simply because it wasn't bought from a specific site.

[pelirojo]

Thanks for the help!

Nightshade, I know that there is a reason that you all chant BAQ, I knew that when I bought my henna, I was given bad information at the shop! That i what I was trying to buy!
ChloeDharma I will look into the baldwins site. thanks!

Does anyone know of any other UK based Henna sellers? I am split between Hampshire (south coast) and near Edinburgh. Most of the recommended sites I can find seem to be for the US meaning my Henna would be out of my budget simply due to the added high cost of posting it half way around the world!
Pelirojo x

[Unofficial_Rose]

;

Does anyone know of any other UK based Henna sellers? I am split between Hampshire (south coast) and near Edinburgh. Most of the recommended sites I can find seem to be for the US meaning my Henna would be out of my budget simply due to the added high cost of posting it half way around the world!
Pelirojo x

You can buy henna from Lush, in the solid bars with cocoa butter. They are good quality Persian Henna, I know there are no metallic salts because I've successfully had foiled highlights in my hair after using it. You have to grate it first, but once it's on it's very conditioning and doesn't drip! The stain is very pretty, some find it weaker than powdered BAQ.

And also Rennaissance henna - excellent quality and super fast service, online only (AFAIK): http://www.renaissancehenna.com But beware, she also has lots of tempting goodies like cassia and bhringraj oil available to buy.

[Lemur_Catta]

Hi! I use henna with sodium picramate. It helps obtaining a cherry shade, instead of an orange shade. I choose to use it because I have very dark hair, and pure henna doesn't show much. I also think that the orange halo in the sun clashes a bit with my natural hair color.
I am quite sure I will not go back to chemical dye, since I have been hennaing for almost 5 years on and off...anyway, I can tell you that even if you use chemical dye on sodium picramate henna, it will be fine.
It is true that hair dyes react with (some) metallic salts. And it is also true that sodium picramate is a metallic salt, because sodium is a metal. It is the salt of picramic acid with sodium. I am sorry if I am not explaining this correctly, but I have never talked about Chemistry in English :P
Actually, it's not the dye that reacts with the salts. It's the lightener, ammonia + peroxide, so if you are using a dye that doesn't contain those, you are safe.
But as I have said, not all metallic salts react with hair dye. As far as I know, and as far as I have read, sodium salts do NOT react with hair dye. Copper salts do. Lead salts do. But NOT sodium picramate.
And please don't say that everybody's hair is different and we react to the same things in different ways or anything like that.
It is true that everybody's hair is different. It can be straight or curly, porous or not, fine or coarse, etc. But everybody's hair is made of keratin, and that's what the lawsone molecule bonds to.
So, chemically speaking, all hair works the same. All hair lightens when you use bleach. And so on.
So, if sodium picramate doesn't react with ammonia, it will never. It's not like it can react with ammonia one time, and not another.
It's like saying that baking soda and vinegar doesn't always react, it depends, you have to do a test first. Everyone would think this is absolutely crazy! An acid and a base react and form hydrogen, period.
Anyway, if you want to color your hair with henna with picramate, do it. In case you want to color with regular dye after that, do a strand test. Not to see if your hair melts or not, just to see if you like the color outcome, which, as you know, depends on the starting color.

In my personal experience, the only con to sodium picramate is that it fades. A lot. I hennaed my hair 2 weeks ago, and still when I wash my hair the water comes out orange. I have stained a lot of things. So I would not advice you do use that if you like white bathrobes or if you are going on vacation in a hotel (it could be embarrassing to stain all the bathroom orange ). And you might not like the result, in sunlight is quite a "fake" red.
I will post a picture as soon as possible. Right now my hair is a mess

[halo_tightens]

I don't know if this matters to the OP, or if it's not an issue at all...

For me, part of the allure of using henna is the knowledge that I am basically using ground-up plant leaves to color my hair. There's something special to me about using a pure plant product, unaltered by artificial means, to accomplish something that so many in the mainstream believe can only be done one way: with the chemicals at their local salon.

I do understand that this might not be a big deal to many people; the end result may be the only consideration for some. It's just a little thing that's important to me, and I thought I'd mention it.