Elumen?

[nellen]

Iris, nice to hear that your first experiences with Elumen were successful. Please keep us updated on further developments on your hair new Elumen hair color.

[jel]

I occasionally think about dying my hair bright red (as henna is relatively natural looking) but am afraid of chemical damage. This Elumen RR@all seems to be the answer!

I still have a couple of questions. Does anyone know if it would cover henna? Also, I can't quite understand from the site - is the colour actually permanent? I've read something about semi-permanent option, but they also sell the colour remover, so I'm not quite sure. Finally, would it be possible to henna again over the Elumen colour?

[iris]

jel, I can't speak from personal experience (yet) since I've just started using the elumen - it's holding up very well so far (also on my whites BTW - I've colored my roots now, too) but it's only been a week or so for me.

But from what I've read on behindthechair.com, the elumen reds especially are really quite permanent.

I think the official philosophy is that applying heat while coloring will make the color permanent, while not applying heat will give only a temporary stain. Also the color remover (the return) is supposed to take the color out. This is the theory.

In practice, from what I've read, the color remover does not work well for a lot of people, and the reds especially will not come out. I don't know about the heat, but I wouldn't count on it being temporary if you don't use heat.

ETA: Some threads on behindthechair about this: one, two. The bit about the reds being more permanent I read on another forum I think - someone who used KK@all and had it last forever.

If you want to do something temporary, I think that manic panic/special effects/stargazer would be a better bet. Maybe do that first anyway, to see how permanently you would really like to be super bright red. The RR@all is - very red.

A great advantage of elumen over manic panic/special effects/stargazer is that elumen has a nicer feel to it IMO - manic panic/special effects/stargazer make my hair feel sort of coated/sticky/icky, elumen doesn't have that coated feel. So for long term elumen would be a better option, but if you just want to play with color for a bit manic panic/special effects/stargazer is better.

I've used elumen over henna and it works fine. I imagine that henna over elumen would be fine, too, - the only potential problem I can imagine is that henna might not take as well over the elumen? They don't seem to react with each other or anything if you're worried about that. A strand test is always a good idea but I'd be really surprised if the combination would result in green or melted hair.

IMO you shouldn't think of either as covering the other. Elumen is a lot like henna in the sense that it only adds color, it can't lighten, and the color that gets added is a translucent stain. If you do elumen over henna the henna underneath will still peek through, and if you henna over elumen you would still see the elumen peek through. Adding lots and lots of layers of color might make it opaque in the end but then you'll end up quite dark.

Iris

[jel]

Thanks ever so much for your reply, Iris! Very useful.

I think the official philosophy is that applying heat while coloring will make the color permanent, while not applying heat will give only a temporary stain. Also the color remover (the return) is supposed to take the color out. This is the theory.

OK, now I understand.

If you want to do something temporary, I think that manic panic/special effects/stargazer would be a better bet. Maybe do that first anyway, to see how permanently you would really like to be super bright red. The RR@all is - very red.

I never even tried MP etc. as I was under the impression that you had to bleach in order to have really bright colours show.

Elumen is a lot like henna in the sense that it only adds color, it can't lighten, and the color that gets added is a translucent stain.

Ah, from the website it looked to me like you could get quite bright colours to show even on darker hair. So, basically, Elumen and MP give similar coverage, but the former is permanent and feels nicer on the hair.


Well, it seems to be best to try MP first and see how I like the bright red on me. If I do like it, I'll invest into Elumen. BTW, if I do like it, I would probably want to keep it for a while (years!), but return to the more subdued henna when I get tired of the brightness.

ETA: Thanks for the links.

[iris]

I never even tried MP etc. as I was under the impression that you had to bleach in order to have really bright colours show.

Ah I see, no, you don't have to bleach for MP etc. I've done MP over hennaed hair and was shocked at how bright it turned out.

On the old boards, summr posted a picture of special effects purple on her daughter's dark brown hair. It was very purple. Not brown with a purple glow - just plain purple.

Of course you do get a more true color if you bleach the hair first, but it will really show up plenty on darker hair, too.

Ah, from the website it looked to me like you could get quite bright colours to show even on darker hair. So, basically, Elumen and MP give similar coverage, but the former is permanent and feels nicer on the hair.

Yep, that's it.

Elumen and MP use the same type of dyes actually. It's just azo dyes. Azo dyes are synthetic colors. There's the stubborn misconception that MP is 'natural' somehow but it's not - it uses synthetic azo dyes (some of which are also used as food coloring so maybe that's where the 'natural' idea comes from). Both elumen and MP use only a few azo dyes to make up all their shades (I've noticed that they use the exact same yellow, BTW, Yellow 10). Stargazer uses a much larger range of dyes, but they're all azo dyes in any case.

The difference between elumen and MP etc seems to be that elumen has an alcohol-type solvent that makes the dye penetrate deeper into the hair. MP works by the principle of putting the color in a conditioner base that sticks to the outside of the hair shaft and slowly washes out. If you have porous hair MP will penetrate the hair, too, and it can end up being permanent in that case. But elumen is designed for the color to penetrate the hair, by the solvent.

All that heat does, is open up the hair shaft and make the color molecules move around more, so you'll get more permanence with heat that way. This works for MP, too - you can make MP last longer by applying heat. Heat doesn't magically change the properties of the dye, it just makes the hair take it a bit better and more deeply.

The permanence really is a sliding scale - elumen is more permanent than MP but both can end up being permanent or nonpermanent depending on your hair's structure.

Well, it seems to be best to try MP first and see how I like the bright red on me. If I do like it, I'll invest into Elumen. BTW, if I do like it, I would probably want to keep it for a while (years!), but return to the more subdued henna when I get tired of the brightness.

If you do end up doing elumen, you could also tone over it with an ashy elumen shade when you're ready to tone it down a bit. That's what I've done to tone down my henna - it works well.

Iris

[iris]

It turns out that MP and elumen actually have three of their dyes in common:

Manic Panic ingredients:
Water, synthetic beeswax, ceterayl alcohol and cetereth-20, hops extract, achillea millefolium extract, anthemis nobilis flower extract, acetic acid, methylparaben (this is the conditioner base)
The dyes:
may contain one or more of the following: Orange 4, Red 33, Blue 1, Yellow 10, Green 5.

Elumen:
Aqua, propylene carbonate (this is a solvent), alcohol denat., lactic acid, hydroxypropylated polysaccharides (probably some sort of coating ingredient), dimethicone copolyol, sodium hydroxide, parfum.
May contain: Acid black 1, acid red 52, yellow 10, ext. violet 2, orange 4, red 33.

I wonder if maybe the polysaccharade stuff in elumen might be heat-activated, forming more of an effective coating locking the color in if heat is used - I can't find a lot about what that stuff might actually do/be.

Also I measured the pH of both, just because I can : MP is pH 5, elumen is pH 3.5.

Iris

[Anksa Na]

"RV@all from the Pure shades" Where can I find info on this?

I like the Elumen. I have tried the brown and clear over henna. The henna still peaked through the brown, which was just what I wanted.

Elumen can be done at home? Where do I find it?

Thanks for all of the info!!!

[Anksa Na]

RV@all from the Pure shades" ????

[iris]

What kind of information do you want to have about the RV@all, Anksa Na? I don't understand what your question is.

I ordered my elumen from an ebay seller:

That all sounds good. Cool! I just ordered some (from this ebay seller)

If you go to the elumen dye (dye=Harfarbe) this seller has up for sale, it also has an approximation of the colors there. The meaning for the codes of the colors is as follows:

A = Ash
B (Pure) = Blue
B = Beige/Brown
G = Gold
K = Copper
N = Natural
R = Red
V = Violet
Gn = Green

The first letter gives the dominant tone, the second letter the secondary tone, the number gives the level (level of darkness). So RV@all is red violet, and you can use it for all levels of darkness.

But I don't know if that's what you were asking.

I can't really help otherwise with sources for elumen, as I'm in Europe. But you can get it in some on-line hairdresser supply stores, also in the US I think - google is your friend.

Iris

[trollkjerring]

After reading this thread I had to order Elumen - thanks to your color chart, Iris, it now makes sense to me. Before I never found these important informations so I was afraid to try it.

I have between one and two inch of virgin hair now, a very ashen medium blonde with lots of silver strands and I want to keep that color.

The rest of my hair is a mix of yellow, right next to my virgin hair (I think from bleach I used all over to lighten the hair, the yellow is bleached, former virgin hair), lots of orange from chemical dye and henna and reddish brown. The darkest parts are level medium brown, I think.

My hair looks so awful that I would prefer to walk around with blue, violet or stonegray hair, so I am not afraid to experiment a little bit. Of course I will do strand tests before...

I ordered:
AB @ 6, BB @ all, BV @ 6 and I will get a free bottle of Lock.

Now I hope the order arrives soon, I will keep you updated!
trollkjerring