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LadyHazel
May 13th, 2012, 04:28 AM
Perhaps some of you clicked on this out of sheer curiousity, perhaps some out of past experience, but many because: 'silicones don't damage hair' they can and they did in my case, so if you please hear out my story of how silicones wrecked my hair:
I used a silicone serum everytime I washed my hair (every 2-3 days) and applied it onto the ends, at first it was a miracle and my hair looked smooth and good enough to eat (haha!) But then after some time, I noticed I was having to apply more to reach the same effects and I couldn't go without applying it else my hair would be a huge matt of fuzz (this has never EVER happened to me before) so to compensate I was using more.

Before anyone jumps to their guns and says 'that's build up! Not silicones' I clarified every time I washed and it is not the shampoo as I have been usingg this shampoo fo 8 years without these effects.

Isn't it funny now after I have had 3 months worth of growth cut off where I applied the silicone serum my hair feels back to normal? And I have stopped using it? Not only this but I was alternating between 4 serums so nobody can blame it in one company brand!

Now I know that most silicones evaporate partially after being applied, having the same rubbing alcohol effects as isopropyl alcohol and poison ethanol (yes, they put this stuff in hair products)

So to whoever is dubious about the use of silicones, if these same things happen to you AVOID them at all costs !

I ruled out every possible culprit and silicones were the last, then I did my research!

Denebi
May 13th, 2012, 04:37 AM
I'm sorry to hear that you had to cut off your damaged ends. There are quite different types of silicones used in hair products, can you please list the ones you used? Some might be more dangerous than others. It'd be interesting to know which ones caused the damage.

LadyHazel
May 13th, 2012, 04:46 AM
Thanks for your rapid response and support, all serums followed the general trend of having either dimethicone or cyclopentasiloxane as 1st or 2nd ingriedient

SnowWhite
May 13th, 2012, 06:13 AM
Hmm I understand what you mean.. I used Biosilk Silk Therapy for quite a long time but I noticed the effect was only temporary and if I didn't use Biosilk, my hair became very dry...
So I skipped this serum and skipped cone conditioners.. Now I oil my hair, use SLS free shampoo's and cone-free conditioners and the condition of my hair is better than ever.

Everyone has different hair and some products or ingredients may work for some types of hair, but other are more sensitive to it and need to avoid those products...
So I'm not saying that cones are bad, but for my hair, they are.

MinderMutsig
May 13th, 2012, 06:16 AM
Given the knowledge we have about silicone and what they do I have some doubts. I do not doubt that you had damage but I'm just not convinced the silicone is solely to blame.

First, there seems to be some confusion about what clarifying is. For instance, some think an ACV or acidic rinse is clarifying which it isn't. Similarly not all shampoos or even SLS shampoos are clarifying. The shampoo you used may have been too mild to remove the heavy duty build-up a silicone serum can cause or it could have ingredients that on their own do not cause problems but may cause problems when used in combination with another product. Also silicone serums basically all do the same thing and have a lot of ingredients in common besides silicone, which also may have been responsible for causing the build-up and/or damage.

And then there is the problem I run into very easily when using cones which is that the cones prevent moisture from penetrating the hair which dries my hair out and over time results in damage. I could blame the cones but that is hardly fair. The cones do exactly what they are meant to do, it's my hair that is the problem and if I adjust my routines and products accordingly I have no problems using them. For me that means only using certain cones (amodimithicone works for me, others do not), only using them after washing my hair so they seal in some moisture, not using them after every wash and washing my hair a day or two sooner than I would have to do without the cones. In return I can wear my hair down with less tangling, it reduces my detangling time and as a result I have less damage from wearing my hair down than if I wear it down without using cones.

Could you give us a list of your routine, what products you used (i.e. what shampoo, conditioner and what serums) and perhaps a list of what their ingredients are? I really don't think it's as simple as 'cones damaged my hair' and given that you loved how the cones made your hair feel at first, perhaps it's worth it to look into ways that could make them work for you?

longhairedwolf
May 13th, 2012, 06:16 AM
Weird. I use dimethicone all the time without any problems. Your mileage does vary, I guess. Hope you find something that works for you.

coneyisland
May 13th, 2012, 06:31 AM
I ruled out every possible culprit and silicones were the last, then I did my research!

Are you sure?


So i've got this situation. It's a rather awkward one as far as my "hair rules" go. I recently used: Charles Worthington Salon Results At Home strength and repair kit. It was on offer and it came with a hair repair oil which you left on for ten minutes under a shower cap, shampoo and a mask. Not worth the original twenty pounds mind you so glad I grabbed it on a bargain. Here comes the strangest part of all:
YOU HAVE TO PUT THE OIL ON DRY HAIR :O
I know! DRY hair. And then wash it!
So as you can imagine, It is the day after and I have build up because their heavily ladden SLS shampoo was drying the moment I applied it and I diluted it x100, ridiculous.
SO- My question:
It is the day after, should I clarify my hair to remove the product (it IS incredibly greasy) or just wait until the morning to avoid damaging my hair from a double clarifying process?
Really stuck here as it is greasy and I was always under the impression that product build up was bad, but so is washing your hair everyday? Had a similiar situation last week with an ethnic deep conditioner full of glycerin (which I didnt even see on the back of the packet) and I had to wash my hair FOUR times to get it out.
Thank you

Little hairs are snapping off all over the place and the product seems to be protein. Too much of it (hydrolysed cellulose), which is the adverse effect. I used silicones 24/7 I am very cone happy and I think over a prolonged period of time this oil + the siliicones have caught up on me leaving my hair somewhat limp, lack luster and lifeless. I may lay off protein treatments from now on unless my hair is breaking off from dying or something because this is ridiculous my hair never randomly snaps off and sheds. Ever. Thanks x

I wanted to go teal and black for years but the damage that bleach causes is not worth it IMO and due to previous colourings I would need to apply it several times at 40 percent peroxide to even get the lift to apply the teal. I wanted my sidefringe to be teal, with teal tips around the feathering of my face and then the rest of my hair to be black. You've done a really good job though I just can't bring myself to jeprodise my hair due to bleaching again, but cudos to you for having the bravery to do it, looks amazinnggg <3

DO NOT DO THAT!! From personal experience!! The first time I bleached my hair I thought: oh well its damaged now and did it a dozen times over a short period of time + dying it was falling out in clumps and oh my I was crying had to cut it...
Just an hour ? Such little time to do the damage and many years to reverse it. Your hair must be very delicate to say the least I am so glad because before I knew that honey contained peroxide I tried mashing it with avocado I left it in my hair for like ten seconds and the smell was enough to make me wash it off right away anyway (PHEW).
 

Boots naked range and organix have caused reactions on my head

I do not know about Naked Range, but I have seen that the Organix Conditioner is loaded with protein.


My hair is rather strange. It has mixed textures, some are fine, some are very thick and strong, but all in all I would judge it as fine/medium
Protein treatments really naff up my hair, I used a protein kit the other day and my hair was falling out a lot, perhaps I should go CO only, or no cones I just really want to know what I am doing wrong- is natural better? coconut oil? anything ;(
I use moisture treatments a lot, it was really after the protein treatment I did the other day that was when my hair started looking very, very bad, now it is all washed out and trimmed it looks a hell of a lot better and I swore to myself: never, ever again. LOL!
But thank you so much all of you, I don't think we have Ahopogee here in the UK? (I know, this country really hates good hair products, my local stores don't even sell SLS free shampoos.)

MinderMutsig
May 13th, 2012, 07:29 AM
Oh yeah, protein overload will definitely give you dry and crunchy ends and can easily be mistaken for damage. Combine that dye and bleach damage and silicone use and it's very possible that your ends just weren't getting the moisture they needed. It's all about balance. A good clarifying and lots and lots of moisture treatments could possibly fix that.

spidermom
May 13th, 2012, 07:48 AM
I've noticed with my hair that using a coney serum about once a week gives good results, but more often and my hair gets dry and tangly.

LadyHazel
May 13th, 2012, 08:15 AM
I do blame silicones as even though I applied them to wet hair they trap moisture out too causing hair to become dry, brittle and prove to breakage and tangles. More tangles equals more brushing equals more split ends!

LadyHazel
May 13th, 2012, 08:22 AM
And coney island, the CW protein kit was the first use, I have used silicones over a prolonged period of time and the protein was not the cause as I used the protein kit as an emergancy to try and rectify the damage that I had which I did not realise at the time the silicones were causing! As in the teal and black hair post, I admire her hair but would never do it as I have GOT RID of the bleach damage a LONG time ago which caused me to start growing out my hair again in the first place. My hair was virginal when I first started using cones I laid off dye bleach heat everything used a BBB seriously do not believe there is no other cause for the damage in my case.

juliaxena
May 13th, 2012, 08:30 AM
And then there is the problem I run into very easily when using cones which is that the cones prevent moisture from penetrating the hair which dries my hair out and over time results in damage. I could blame the cones but that is hardly fair.

I think this is what you did OP. Too much of a "good" thing and not enough moisture in your conditioner.

MinderMutsig
May 13th, 2012, 08:32 AM
I do blame silicones as even though I applied them to wet hair they trap moisture out too causing hair to become dry, brittle and prove to breakage and tangles. More tangles equals more brushing equals more split ends!

This statement of yours definitely makes me suspect that your shampoo was not capable of removing previous build-up from these serums so every time you used these serums you added another layer of cones, making it harder for moisture to penetrate and hydrate the hair, eventually resulting in damage.

Another shampoo, another serum with different cones and/or another routine should prevent these problems from happening again in the future.

Of course if you don't want to use cones anymore you shouldn't but since you said you initially liked your hair on cones...

LadyHazel
May 13th, 2012, 08:40 AM
I did I initially really liked them I clarified so much to get their residue out finally last week , my shampoo didnt have cones and is a clarifying shampoo, it has always got rid of their build up its just the serum.
Coney conditioners yeah, but the serums... I just feel as if they wrecked havoc on my hair because as u can see above I do not have dye damage bleach damage or any of that anymore x

pepperminttea
May 13th, 2012, 09:16 AM
I do blame silicones as even though I applied them to wet hair they trap moisture out too causing hair to become dry, brittle and prove to breakage and tangles. More tangles equals more brushing equals more split ends!

It's worth noting not all silicones are created equal; some are harder to remove than others. If you're finding the transition to 'cone-free difficult, perhaps you could try a different one, like amodimethicone? :)

LadyHazel
May 13th, 2012, 09:20 AM
Ooo thanks for the heads up! My matrix biology ultra hydrating cream has that partially water soluable silicone but after all of this grief I completely forgot about the solubility differences

ohhiitssteph
May 13th, 2012, 10:20 AM
I wish we could just get some solid, scientific evidence on silicones. I swear, everything I hear is just SO different, and they work so differently on everyone's hair... it's just so weird! I'm sorry the effect on your hair was so disastrous. I second the recommendation to use Amodimethicone or the other more mild silicones (there is another one that is basically the same as amodimethicone; doesn't build up on itself, is mainly attracted to damaged areas, etc but I can't remember which one it is).

Even water-soluble silicones may work. My hair LOVES water-soluble 'cones for some reason! That's what made me also want to try amodimethicone, I know it's not water-soluble but it's not prone to buildup like the harder 'cones. It seems to be working for my hair so far.

Good luck finding a new routine! I hope your hair recovers soon :)

jeanniet
May 13th, 2012, 10:46 AM
I do blame silicones as even though I applied them to wet hair they trap moisture out too causing hair to become dry, brittle and prove to breakage and tangles. More tangles equals more brushing equals more split ends!
One other point: using a brush to detangle is highly damaging to hair. Once you get damage, your hair tangles more, you use a brush to detangle more, you damage your hair more... A wide-toothed comb should be used for detangling (or a Tangle Teezer). Brushing (with a BBB) is reserved for detangled hair.

HintOfMint
May 13th, 2012, 11:13 AM
She is right about cyclopentasiloxane functioning a bit like a drying alcohol, so I don't think she's off the mark when she says that the serums she used damaged her hair. Whether it was compounded by the frequent washing or the brushing to detangle, I don't know, but I do think she has a point, so let's not jump down her throat. The fact that coney conditioners were fine but not the serums (which allow the cyclopentasiloxane to sit in one's hair and evaporate into the air) is telling

ladylowtide
May 13th, 2012, 11:22 AM
I never used to use conditioner, because it made my hair look lank and gross. But then I tried a cone-free conditioner and I was in heaven. Finally I got the light, voluminous, tangle-free hair I wanted. So no-cone worked for me. Though I admit I would probably have a lot more tangles if I didn't henna every 5 weeks. It gives my hair, and the bleached ends a lot of slip...maybe a combination of the two?

The one thing is for sure is that I look like a wet dog when I use cones.

Anje
May 13th, 2012, 11:28 AM
OP, I hear you, though I think others are correct in speculating that your shampoo was probably not doing a sufficient job at removing the serum from your hair.

When I've experimented with silicones, I've noticed that my hair starts to get dry and eventually tangly within a few days after washing. Much sooner than when I do not use silicones. It seems like things with cyclopentasiloxane increase this effect over products that don't use that particular silicone.

I don't think this happens to everyone. But it's useful to be aware of your hair's reactions to things. A product that doesn't help your hair isn't universally evil, but it might be evil to your hair.

LadyHazel
May 13th, 2012, 01:58 PM
Thanks for the support everyone and yes, the main ingredient in most of my serums is cyclopentasiloxane, which does have the effect of rubbing alcohols, used around 3 times a week would leave hair pretty robbed of moisture, especially when you have naturally fine hair anyway (but lots of it in my case) !

nemolatte
May 26th, 2013, 06:14 AM
Hey there. I do not know much about hair products, and the chemicals etc in them. I am trying to learn through reading this site. I have shoulder lenght hair and i try to grow it up. I have wavy-curly abd really frizzy hair. I always feels the need to use leave in conditioners. The cones, i guess, made my hair really shiny and soft at first. But now, like for three months, i cant make my hair soft and frizzless no matter what i use. When i read that cones might be damaging for our hair, i began to search for sth coneless but still takes care of the frizzes. I only could find something from organix. Moroccan curling perfection defining cream. It feels good on my hair. Not as good as cone products but still takes care of the frizzes. But i still am not sure if it is really conefree. Can someone tell me about that product. And what are you using if you dont use cones? Im asking it to curly haired people. Thanks a lot. That was my first ever comment on that site.

LadyCelestina
May 26th, 2013, 07:06 AM
Welcome here nemolatte! :flower:

Most people who don't use cones read the ingredients list on products they buy and search for specific ingredients like dimethicone,cyclopentasiloxane,cyclomethicone etc.If a product doesn't contain these,it's cone free.So it's like,normal conditioner,normal shampoo,just without cones.Of course,not everyone uses shampoo or conditioner,but I guess your question was aimed more towards people who still use these products on their hair or not?

I suggest using google to find the ingredients of that defining cream and also,it might benefit you if you learn the names of at least the most common silicones found in hair care products.Good luck.

Kherome
May 26th, 2013, 04:30 PM
I'd wager that the serum sealed moisture OUT of your hair and your shampoo didn't remove it well enough to allow moisture back in. I recommend keeping a bottle of good chelating shampoo around, like L'anza and using it regularly if you're a "conehead."

Long_hair_bear
May 26th, 2013, 04:39 PM
I'm with the cone users. Cones helped keep my damage away by providing slip for the brush. Granted, I don't use a serum; I use a coney conditioner. The only leave in I use is an aloe vera/water mix.

Emichiee
May 26th, 2013, 05:14 PM
Ooo thanks for the heads up! My matrix biology ultra hydrating cream has that partially water soluable silicone but after all of this grief I completely forgot about the solubility differences


I'd wager that the serum sealed moisture OUT of your hair and your shampoo didn't remove it well enough to allow moisture back in. I recommend keeping a bottle of good chelating shampoo around, like L'anza and using it regularly if you're a "conehead."

I think that is what happened too.

My opinion of silicone may differ from many here. While I don't believe it is the "devil", I don't see it as ideal at either.

I want to explain why:
2006-2007 I studied hair and skin biology. As part of a project, we tested hair products on different hair types, also silicone.
Not only did we test on all kinds of hair....old, young, long, short, dyed, virgin, products, no products...(everyone was instructed to care for their hair differently), but we also tested all kinds of cones.
We wanted to see how much silicone build up really happens, how much is left after a wash, and after clarifying different ways even (using a microscope).
The results were, that NO silicone washed out completely right away. Most of them took days and weeks to completely wash away. (Despite what companies claim, they claim a lot to see your $$$ flying their way.)
Means, even if you clarify, you might not remove all the build up and some dryness is still being caused. For hair not so prone to damage, that is usually not a huge deal though, and for the long haired cone user, the ease of using cones can outweigh that bit of dryness from it.

For hair not as resilient, or for those that are just VERY picky about how healthy their hair is with nothing on it, clarifying can also pose a problem, because it dries out hair more than just a normal wash. If you wanted to remove some cones every day, that would mean daily clarifying washes.

I personally could not clarify daily and still have healthy hair. I do best with a very mild detergent (diluted coconut soap or soap herbs). And I am sure some others need to be aware of those risks too.
I have used cones in the past, and they did not dry out my hair horribly while I was using them, but I decided to try going cone free to see how healthy my hair can be naturally, with just oils.
After the silicone wore off, my hair really did not look too great, but over the years, my hair became so healthy that at classic length and beyond I had 0 splits, and there was no need to ever detangle my hair (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiGXcVh1VT0) really. My comb would glide right through.

I then got sick, and my hair more prone to damage, but thanks to this care, that suits me so well, I was able to keep my hair (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf95erzdYRc) long with not too much damage and tangles..overall still pretty good.
I can't imagine though what a mess my hair would be if I would use anything harsh :lol:.

Conclusion: Well I think we all need to be cautious using cones, and need to be aware of what works best to us. Many are better off without cones, and it is good if they find out before they experience real problems.
If one simply goes ahead and uses cones, it can surely go wrong. Not everyone would try to remove build up. (lack of knowledge etc.)

Emi

starlamelissa
May 26th, 2013, 06:47 PM
Just wanted to throw out there that cyclopentasiloxane is an amazing cone for wet combing. I regularly use conditioners with it, and i use a copious amount to detangle in the shower.and since it evaporates my hair still feels full and very clean.

As for serums, I have never found one I really liked, the do seem to build up and bug me. I prefer water based leave ins, olive oil, and baby oil, all for different reasons.

CurlyCap
May 26th, 2013, 09:56 PM
Just a thought from a previous heavy silicione serum user:

When I stopped using silicone serums, I was actually SHOCKED at how much time and effort it took to wash the cones out of my hair. I knew I used a lot of serum, but my hair always looked great and was growing well. Serums gave me definition and a shine my curly hair doesn't have naturally when dry.

However, one weekend I went to my favorite hairdresser and asked for a blowout. She started washing my hair....and seemed to get really frustrated. In her studio, she washed my hair 3 times with her best clarifying shampoo, and then asked, "CurlyCap, do you use any kind of serums?" I said, "Sure. XXZ Brand, 5-6 pumps a day." My hairdresser shook her head, sat me in her chair, and then showed me something.

What she did was blow my hair with a boar bristle brush and high heat. Now, in LHC terms, that's horrendous. But what it did was get rid of the "hiding" curly hair can do and show me how MUCH cones I had built up on my hair. It was like my hair was coated in plastic. With heat (I never use a blow dryer at home), the coating on my hair actually started to melt together and form a sheet. My hair dresser turned her blowdryer off and told me to go home and clarify my hair every other day while applying a cone-free deep conditioner every day.

It took THREE MONTHS for all the serum to come out of my hair. Eventually, my hair was cone free and actually quite healthy. I write this because some people think they need to cut their hair because they think serum build-up is hopeless. It's not. It's just that the product is not water soluble and or completely oil soluble and needs time to wear off.

Now it's many years (and a buzzcut) later, and this time around I am very hesitant with serums. I don't consider them evil. I just know what I'm getting into when I use them. Mostly I stick to silicones in conditioner, and make sure to shampoo more often if I use coney conditioners. I have used a coney serum twice in the last 3 years. Just a little gunshy about them.

Just throwing that story out there, in case anyone is despairing. You can get all of a built up serum product out of your hair, it just takes time and dedication.

WilfredAllen
May 27th, 2013, 02:00 AM
I have the same opinion of 'cones. Even using a small amount every wash will build up on top of itself which causes my hair to become dry and stiff, which then causes my hair to tangle and bend, which causes permanent damage :(. The good news is that not using SLS means I don't need 'cones to re-moisturize, and not using 'cones means I don't need the SLS to keep washing the 'cones out :). I believe the specific offending cone was dimethicone, but, since my hair seems to be faring quite well without silicones, I plan on avoiding all cones in the future. I found clarifying a baking soda solution helped to get the excess silicone out, but it was very drying.

daredevil14
May 27th, 2013, 03:48 AM
Based on my experience, one word to say about cones: evil. (At least for wavy/curly hair.)

Yes, they "seduce" you in the beginning, give you a great shine, more defined thick s-curls, less hidden frizz, etc... But give them 2 weeks only, even if you are using a sulfate-shampoo, and they will start their invasion against curls, they will dry out your hair even after a fresh wash, etc...

So I immediately clarified with a cone-free sulfate-shampoo (this is important as most poos these days have at least dimethicone!), returned to the CG method by CO-washing with a cone-free conditioner and now my hair is way healthier compared to the cone-era (which is short anyway).

Again, this is my experience. I am only planning to use coconut oil as a weekly deep-treatment in addition to the CO-wash conditioner, I may add an anti-frizz product in the future but it definitely has to be cone-free.

MandyBeth
May 27th, 2013, 04:18 AM
You have multiple posts blaming, this, that, these, those and everything else for damage.

I use serum daily. Especially on my vangs (v shaped bangs) which I blow dry and flat iron every time because that shows the v best. I'm not fussy on brands, I switch all the time.

Neutrogena Anti Residue and any chelating shampoo used before using henna and indigo has stripped everything off as henna, even at 20% henna, 5% amla, 75% indigo, goes hot red over cones, and indigo doesn't stick with cones. I'm fully on Black No. 1 with my mix, I show no red after the second step. So I know by color and daily heat that I'm not building up cones.

Using your daily shampoo to clarify is one of two issues. Either the shampoo isn't strong enough to clarify OR you are using a proper clarifying shampoo WAY too often.

Oil and glycerin both remove better with conditioner. Like to like. I've applied a full bottle of oil when sleep walking. 4 rounds of Neutrogena didn't remove any of the normally easily washed out oil, then turned my hair to dandelion fly away fluff. One round of full on conditioner, then a 50/50 dilution of conditioner got rid of the oil easy.

Protein causing snappy hair means you need moisture. SMT pack time, and avoid protein. The moisture need may be cone based, but excessive shampoo use also can be bad, as can simply too much protein. My hair would shatter with henna, without major rounds of SMT.

Bleaching is wicked bad for your ends if not done right. Excessively repeating bleach over a short time using 40 V is bleaching badly.

You should never brush wet hair other than a Tangle Teezer. Wet hair is fragile. Which equals damage.

A fair number of clarifying shampoos have protein. Naked Range had protein last I read. Organix has pretty high amounts of protein. You are protein sensitive. Those products will give you the straw texture and breakage. It's not damage.

So you have protein over load - looks like damage. You have lack of moisture -acts damaged. You've over shampooed your hair - looks like damage, can be damage especially with mechanical due to scrubbing. You used too gentle of shampoo to clarify so it's build up or it's too harsh which looks and acts like damage. You've got excessive bleaching - that is major damage. Wet brushing is horrible and that does break hair.

It's not all cones. It may have nothing to do with cones. You actually haven't proven cones are evil in any form. Just that if you abuse your hair, it looks vile.

If someone doesn't wish to use cones, no big deal. But blame isn't on cones, shampoo, brushing, bleaching, whatever. It's you drastically doing basics wrong. The wet hair is basic. Knowing your hair hates protein but still using it is basic. Like to like oil removal is basic.

lapushka
May 27th, 2013, 04:40 AM
If someone doesn't wish to use cones, no big deal. But blame isn't on cones, shampoo, brushing, bleaching, whatever. It's you drastically doing basics wrong. The wet hair is basic. Knowing your hair hates protein but still using it is basic. Like to like oil removal is basic.

Well said.

I have cones in my routine, and haven't seen damage from using them whatsoever, but we clarify weekly (this means every time we wash the hair). Also, I don't have my hair heat styled (apart from the blow drier, on "warm") and I don't have it died/bleached.

I agree. It's easy to blame product, but it's better to see what else it is you're doing to that hair of yours.

MandyBeth
May 27th, 2013, 05:56 AM
Yup, I have two step indigo dyed hair that part of gets pretty abused with high heat. It's only my vangs, I hate my hair without bangs, plus with glasses, my bang area was getting shredded by the hinges. So I don't mind damage there, it grows out in a month. Due to being short, thus trimmed every two weeks to keep the shape, my bangs take two step as well as the rest, which is short for the record due to medical issues and pyrotechnics from standing directly in front of the stage with loose hair for two Rammstein concerts. But that doesn't get the blow dryer and rarely the flat iron, but then it's barely hot vs my bangs which at tortured with heat. My hair feels the same overall other than my very (< 1mm) tippy tips of my bangs but that's heat as I can see the singe spots starting if I don't do my mid point trim.

My daughter has pale blonde streaks from maybe chin down. From coconut oil, I've not felt damage other than to the mess that was cut off. That was our deal, she could get the streaks if she'd agree to cutting of 6-8 inches to hideous damage. Meh, I know it's not great, but she loves her River curls and is thrilled to bits. Her hair is far easier with 7 inches of serious damage is gone. She's got to use cones or her damaged areas don't slip or form small tangles, it goes to full to matting. There is no shampoo used, and I don't feel or see build up.

Emichiee
May 27th, 2013, 06:29 AM
Just a thought from a previous heavy silicione serum user:

When I stopped using silicone serums, I was actually SHOCKED at how much time and effort it took to wash the cones out of my hair. I knew I used a lot of serum, but my hair always looked great and was growing well. Serums gave me definition and a shine my curly hair doesn't have naturally when dry.

However, one weekend I went to my favorite hairdresser and asked for a blowout. She started washing my hair....and seemed to get really frustrated. In her studio, she washed my hair 3 times with her best clarifying shampoo, and then asked, "CurlyCap, do you use any kind of serums?" I said, "Sure. XXZ Brand, 5-6 pumps a day." My hairdresser shook her head, sat me in her chair, and then showed me something.

What she did was blow my hair with a boar bristle brush and high heat. Now, in LHC terms, that's horrendous. But what it did was get rid of the "hiding" curly hair can do and show me how MUCH cones I had built up on my hair. It was like my hair was coated in plastic. With heat (I never use a blow dryer at home), the coating on my hair actually started to melt together and form a sheet. My hair dresser turned her blowdryer off and told me to go home and clarify my hair every other day while applying a cone-free deep conditioner every day.

It took THREE MONTHS for all the serum to come out of my hair. Eventually, my hair was cone free and actually quite healthy. I write this because some people think they need to cut their hair because they think serum build-up is hopeless. It's not. It's just that the product is not water soluble and or completely oil soluble and needs time to wear off.

Now it's many years (and a buzzcut) later, and this time around I am very hesitant with serums. I don't consider them evil. I just know what I'm getting into when I use them. Mostly I stick to silicones in conditioner, and make sure to shampoo more often if I use coney conditioners. I have used a coney serum twice in the last 3 years. Just a little gunshy about them.

Just throwing that story out there, in case anyone is despairing. You can get all of a built up serum product out of your hair, it just takes time and dedication.

Very interesting story! And I see some similarities to the studies I posted about where it was actually much harder to remove them, even with salon brand products. There was always some residue left to be seen under the microscope.


I have the same opinion of 'cones. Even using a small amount every wash will build up on top of itself which causes my hair to become dry and stiff, which then causes my hair to tangle and bend, which causes permanent damage :(. The good news is that not using SLS means I don't need 'cones to re-moisturize, and not using 'cones means I don't need the SLS to keep washing the 'cones out :). I believe the specific offending cone was dimethicone, but, since my hair seems to be faring quite well without silicones, I plan on avoiding all cones in the future. I found clarifying a baking soda solution helped to get the excess silicone out, but it was very drying.

My experience too.

LadyCelestina
May 27th, 2013, 07:29 AM
I know this might be very YMMV,but I once made a mistake of trying long term co-washing with a coney conditioner,back when I didn't really understand the ingredients of products,and my hair was nowhere near dryed out or anything.It was waxy.

Are you SURE what you all with dryness from cones are experiencing is silicone build up?

nemolatte
May 27th, 2013, 07:54 AM
Thanks for your answer. I was suspicious about organix's product because i felt so good. I didnt expect it to be, because i was using cones for like more than 5 years. I was actually asking for suggestions about sth conelss but still takes care of the frizzes and gives shine. Since i have really really dry hair, i allways use conditioners and shampoo (once a week). Organix products are really high pricey in where i live (turkey) i need suggestions. What products (i mean leave in conditioners or maybe dry oils) we can use for the curly, frizzy and dry hair?

jacqueline101
May 27th, 2013, 09:02 AM
I use my cony spray once a week and so far it's doing good.

deedrr
May 27th, 2013, 01:49 PM
What do you use for heat protectant?

jeanniet
May 27th, 2013, 08:00 PM
Thanks for your answer. I was suspicious about organix's product because i felt so good. I didnt expect it to be, because i was using cones for like more than 5 years. I was actually asking for suggestions about sth conelss but still takes care of the frizzes and gives shine. Since i have really really dry hair, i allways use conditioners and shampoo (once a week). Organix products are really high pricey in where i live (turkey) i need suggestions. What products (i mean leave in conditioners or maybe dry oils) we can use for the curly, frizzy and dry hair?

Curly hair needs a lot of moisture. If you're using regular shampoo, it may just be too harsh for your hair. Try using only very small amounts of SLS-free shampoo (dilute with water), or using the conditioner-only wash method. Most curlies just use regular conditioner as a leave in. You can use an oil over the leave in if you need something more. Coconut oil is a good one, and you should be able to obtain it there.

Cones are not evil. They have their place, and work very well for some people. I get immediate build up from them, so I don't use them, but there are plenty of people here who use them regularly and have great hair. Like anything else, YMMV. Be judicious and aware of what you're using.

kpzra
May 27th, 2013, 09:59 PM
The BBB may also be causing some damage, they don't work for everyones hair.

Wildcat Diva
December 18th, 2016, 10:54 AM
Bumping this thread because I have been thinking about how to get more moisture in my hair despite using some cones. I use hello hydration conditioner and use a chelating shampoo often. My hair gets different types of build up easily. When I chelate well, the ends of my hair feel super rough, but I'm not ready to chop them off yet, they don't look terrible either.

It's very tangly, my hair, and I rely on lots of oils in between washes.

Need to do the misting bottle more often. I use mineral oil and leave in like KCKT and then Nightblooming Panacea as a leave in on wet hair too.

I'm seeing comments here and there on LHC about silicones causing damage, and I want to get the most of my experience with cones. This thread has some good info already, but I thought people might have more to add?

school of fish
December 18th, 2016, 11:18 AM
Bumping this thread because I have been thinking about how to get more moisture in my hair despite using some cones. I use hello hydration conditioner and use a chelating shampoo often. My hair gets different types of build up easily. When I chelate well the ends feel super rough, but I'm not ready to chop them off yet, they don't look terrible either.

It's very tangly, my hair, and I rely on lots of oils in between washes.

Need to do the misting bottle more often. I use mineral oil as a leave in on wet hair too.

I'm seeing comments here and there on LHC about silicones causing damage, and I want to get the most of my experience with cones. This thread has some good info already, but I thought people might have more to add?

I'm not sure if this is helpful but I'll throw it out there anyway...

I don't experience damage from silicones - in fact my hair loves them - but I recently went cone-free kind of by accident... not for the sake of eliminating cones but only because it was appearing that my HG Pantene Ice Shine was getting discontinued and I was looking for a substitute. Since then on the strength of some good LHC press I've been using Tresemme Perfectly UnDone and I would have sworn it's a silicone formulation if I hadn't read the ingredients!! It gives me the same, if not slightly better results than the Pantene did. Haven't had to adjust my wash schedule one iota (daily washing, alternating S&C with CO).

The Tresemme shampoo is very sulphatey so it strips build-up readily (which I also require) and the conditioner is very slippy and gives a great shot of moisture but doesn't 'hang around' after when the hair's dry. This set's got the odd combo of super-strip-plus-massive-rinse-out-moisture-shot that my hair needs. Weird, but works for me ;)

So - if you suspect you may be getting some damage from silicones but want a rich conditioner that still *behaves* like a coney one, maybe give this a try? :)

lapushka
December 18th, 2016, 01:15 PM
Bumping this thread because I have been thinking about how to get more moisture in my hair despite using some cones. I use hello hydration conditioner and use a chelating shampoo often. My hair gets different types of build up easily. When I chelate well, the ends of my hair feel super rough, but I'm not ready to chop them off yet, they don't look terrible either.

Maybe try the rinse-out oil technique? A little oil on the ends after shampoo, (rinse), then your conditioner, then rinse (again).

mizukitty
December 18th, 2016, 02:04 PM
Here (https://www.reddit.com/r/HaircareScience/comments/1woutk/all_about_silicones/) is a link that will familiarize you with common silicones and how they differ from each other.

Ya know, "damaged" looking ends can be a sign of multiple things, not always actual damage. Perhaps you have mineral build up or simply product build up, maybe they need chelating, clarifying, and then a good dose of moisture on stripped hair.

Also, two members on here have completely debunked silicones "trapping moisture out." They SLOW the loss of moisture and absorption of it, but how would your hair get wet in the shower after you applied cones, had they formed an impenetrable barrier?

Edit: Lol, didn't realize this was a bumped old thread and replied to OP. Sorry Wildcat Diva! Didn't mean this towards you!

Annalouise
December 18th, 2016, 02:14 PM
Wildcatdiva ~ I think you asked me in another thread why cones cause damage, because I had said that they certainly can cause split ends. I didn't reply to you because I tend to get a beating when I question cone usage even though its my experience that one has to have a bit of caution with them. This is my logic: cones, like oils are used as sealants. If your hair is dry, and you put a sealant on it, then what is the purpose of that? Obviously, if you are sealing the hair then you better have moisture in your hair or you will simply be sealing dry ends.

(This is where people usually tell me that some oils penetrate the hair and some don't. It doesn't matter if its a penetrating oil or not, oil is not moisture.):p

The problem with "sealing" is that is stops moisture loss, that is why people do it, but SO TOO, (and this is where I get into trouble), it seals moisture OUT of the hair. So if your hair is dry and you are using sealants then you are making it worse in my opinion.

The only logical way to use a sealant is to seal IN moisture. Which means you better deep condition your hair and have plenty of moisture in it before you "seal" it.:)

The other issue is build up. Depending on your hair type, the larger your hair strand the more weight or build up it can handle. If you have fine hair you will get build up quickly, which will have the result of sealing moisture out of the hair again. Why? Because the moisture in the air has to then penetrate through the oil or silicone to reach the hair and that's not going to happen if you have build up.

It's a tight rope. You have to walk a fine line. If your hair is good and moisturized then fine, seal in the moisture. But if your hair is dry then I would put down the oils and silicones and go to deep conditioning to try and get moisture back into the hair. This might take a few tries and it won't happen over night.

The last thing we want to do is dry out our hair. And remember that if you want to spritz your strands with distilled water or spring water, then if you have build up or oil on the hair, or silicone, know that the water is not getting through.

To me this is common sense.:D

Wildcat Diva
December 18th, 2016, 03:31 PM
I appreciate the responses. It's all good info and I don't want to beat up anybody for their info presented.

I do get the fine line thing. I will continue to use SMT and chelating shampoos. I'm not sure also how mineral build up (hard water) will factor into this silicone build up mix too.

I just want to learn more about what makes sense and is proven. This sucks sometimes when YMMV is a real thing.

I think though, it's common sense to know that some of the water, when misted upon the hair, must soak in, otherwise hair would not get moist.


Mitzi, great Reddit list. I will print out!

I also saw this.
http://science-yhairblog.blogspot.com/2014/04/silicone-ingredient-solubility-list.html?m=1

My hair usually feels good and spriongy after a wash, up to 24 hours, then it starts getting dry feeling. It's always tangly so if I dare to tangle teezer it or comb it it's gonna be a struggle. I usually oil it and go for it though on day two after a wash. I usually have to add a blob of some oil at that point again. Probably should get into the habit of misting it first at that time, then letting THAT dry out, then comb.

I DO sometimes do the rinse out oil method and also squish to condish. Don't notice a huge difference. It's probably that it's some level of damage/ weathered on the ends that isn't gonna be super responsive. Just gonna try to keep it going without tragedy so I can get longer. I don't feel a need to sacrifice the ends yet. At some point they will probably get an inch or two chop, but not now....

Nique1202
December 18th, 2016, 06:33 PM
To me this is common sense.:D

None of this explains how silicones can "absolutely" cause split ends though. It seems as though you, like OP, are blaming any use of silicones for damage when really it's unresearched and unthinking use of silicones that can lead to dryness that can lead to having to tangles that can lead to mechanical damage from detangling which can then lead to split ends. That's an awful lot of variables in between silicones and split ends where things start to fall apart. LOTS of things lead to dryness in the hair, and you even acknowledge that silicones USED PROPERLY to seal moisture in can make the hair condition better. You're contradicting yourself and spreading misinformation based on a bunch of weak assumptions.

Also, oils can act like moisture for a lot of hair types. I have quite porous ends, and they don't hold on to "moisture" as you define it on their own, but oils do the same thing as, say, spritzing glycerine water on them would for others only it lasts longer. It's not TECHNICALLY moisture if you define moisture as only meaning water, but they can serve the same moisturizing purpose. To say "oils aren't moisture" in such a condescending manner all the time is as misleading as saying that "silicones cause split ends". It works for some people, even if it doesn't work for you, and it doesn't hurt to acknowledge that your results do not always match someone else's with the same products. That's why many of us try to always make sure it's clear that so many things are YMMV.

Llama
December 18th, 2016, 07:03 PM
Wildcatdiva ~ I think you asked me in another thread why cones cause damage, because I had said that they certainly can cause split ends. I didn't reply to you because I tend to get a beating when I question cone usage even though its my experience that one has to have a bit of caution with them. This is my logic: cones, like oils are used as sealants. If your hair is dry, and you put a sealant on it, then what is the purpose of that? Obviously, if you are sealing the hair then you better have moisture in your hair or you will simply be sealing dry ends.

(This is where people usually tell me that some oils penetrate the hair and some don't. It doesn't matter if its a penetrating oil or not, oil is not moisture.):p

The problem with "sealing" is that is stops moisture loss, that is why people do it, but SO TOO, (and this is where I get into trouble), it seals moisture OUT of the hair. So if your hair is dry and you are using sealants then you are making it worse in my opinion.

The only logical way to use a sealant is to seal IN moisture. Which means you better deep condition your hair and have plenty of moisture in it before you "seal" it.:)




Yeah but who is putting silicone conditioner onto hair that is not already wet? You say that putting silicone products onto dry hair is going to keep moisture out, which would be true, but I don't think people on here really do that...

desu
December 18th, 2016, 07:36 PM
I have a habit of putting coconut oil on my ends even when they're dry to moisturise them. Is this actually bad for my hair or nah? :( This thread has confused me.

renia22
December 18th, 2016, 08:05 PM
WildCat_Diva- thebeautybrain.com have some great articles on silicone use on hair and they debunk a lot of the myths floating around regarding silicones:

http://thebeautybrains.com/2010/05/will-silicones-dry-out-hair/

That's just one of them, but they have a bunch.

As far as the feeling on your hair, have you tried skipping the mineral oil and the panacea? Those might be giving you build up too. I personally can't use anything with Shea in it, not even clarifying shampoos helped when I've used Shea based leave ins before , I had to go straight for hot olive oil soaks and it was this whole tedious process to get the stuff out. Not to knock this ingredient for people who like it, but it can be problametic for some people/ certain hair types too. Mineral oil can build up too. Just an idea, might not even be the silicones that are the issue, or maybe it's some combination of things?

Wildcat Diva
December 19th, 2016, 12:12 AM
I have tried skipping mineral oil for a time, and sometimes I do go without panacea. I must be a terrible experimentor, because I was not noticing a big difference either way. I could back off most everything to see what causes more buildup, but honestly I would probably still have hard water buildup. My hair was tangly worse before I went back on cones. Maybe it's just damage period causing a bulk of that tangliness at tailbone length.

Good link thanks.

lapushka
December 19th, 2016, 05:38 AM
I have a habit of putting coconut oil on my ends even when they're dry to moisturise them. Is this actually bad for my hair or nah? :( This thread has confused me.

Try using a different oil sometime. Some people can't handle coconut oil and get dry (sometimes even crunchy) ends. Coconut oil holds in protein in the hair, and those with protein sensitivity can't deal with that.

lapushka
December 19th, 2016, 05:40 AM
None of this explains how silicones can "absolutely" cause split ends though. It seems as though you, like OP, are blaming any use of silicones for damage when really it's unresearched and unthinking use of silicones that can lead to dryness that can lead to having to tangles that can lead to mechanical damage from detangling which can then lead to split ends. That's an awful lot of variables in between silicones and split ends where things start to fall apart. LOTS of things lead to dryness in the hair, and you even acknowledge that silicones USED PROPERLY to seal moisture in can make the hair condition better. You're contradicting yourself and spreading misinformation based on a bunch of weak assumptions.

I have to, sadly, agree with that. You have a "thing" about silicones, but say *that* then rather than spreading misinformation on silicones. If used properly silicones don't damage the hair at all, if at all (which I strongly doubt, there simply is no evidence) - but that goes for a lot of things, blow dryers, regular conditioners, combs and brushes. What have you.

vampyyri
December 19th, 2016, 10:50 AM
Silicones are just a different form of "oil" to be used as a synthetic sealant (much like how jojoba or mineral oil sits on top of the hair).
I don't see how they would cause damage honestly... that's like saying oils cause damage :confused: I personally can't use them in conditioners because they don't agree with my freshly washed hair, but I can use them in a serum after no-cone conditioning.

Wildcat Diva
December 20th, 2016, 11:25 AM
I'm not sure if this is helpful but I'll throw it out there anyway...

I don't experience damage from silicones - in fact my hair loves them - but I recently went cone-free kind of by accident... not for the sake of eliminating cones but only because it was appearing that my HG Pantene Ice Shine was getting discontinued and I was looking for a substitute. Since then on the strength of some good LHC press I've been using Tresemme Perfectly UnDone and I would have sworn it's a silicone formulation if I hadn't read the ingredients!! It gives me the same, if not slightly better results than the Pantene did. Haven't had to adjust my wash schedule one iota (daily washing, alternating S&C with CO).

The Tresemme shampoo is very sulphatey so it strips build-up readily (which I also require) and the conditioner is very slippy and gives a great shot of moisture but doesn't 'hang around' after when the hair's dry. This set's got the odd combo of super-strip-plus-massive-rinse-out-moisture-shot that my hair needs. Weird, but works for me ;)

So - if you suspect you may be getting some damage from silicones but want a rich conditioner that still *behaves* like a coney one, maybe give this a try? :)

I will try the "perfectly undone." I probably need to have a silicone free conditioner in my rotation. I have a couple already but I'm willing to try more. I can branch out because I have other long hairs in my immediate family who will use the other products I test drive haha.

littlestarface
December 20th, 2016, 11:47 AM
I will try the "perfectly undone." I probably need to have a silicone free conditioner in my rotation. I have a couple already but I'm willing to try more. I can branch out because I have other long hairs in my immediate family who will use the other products I test drive haha.

It's a good conditioner and it's for wavy hair, My hair always looks best after using that one.

vampyyri
December 20th, 2016, 02:44 PM
It's a good conditioner and it's for wavy hair, My hair always looks best after using that one.

This has me seriously considering trying it... I've only ever tried two cone-free conditioners after all (the two that I use...:lol:)
I've heard that the smell is very pungent though... perhaps I need to take a sniff of this one.

littlestarface
December 20th, 2016, 02:49 PM
This has me seriously considering trying it... I've only ever tried two cone-free conditioners after all (the two that I use...:lol:)
I've heard that the smell is very pungent though... perhaps I need to take a sniff of this one.

It smells like a sweet conditionery smell, it's a very potent lemme tell'ya but I like it cuz it lasts til the next wash and I only wash maybe once a week or later lol. The result on the hair tho is like silk, you can see my profile pic is after using this, it's nice.

school of fish
December 20th, 2016, 02:54 PM
This has me seriously considering trying it... I've only ever tried two cone-free conditioners after all (the two that I use...:lol:)
I've heard that the smell is very pungent though... perhaps I need to take a sniff of this one.

For what it's worth, I find the scent far *less* strong than my previous conditioner - this one doesn't blast my nose during use nor does it last on my hair once dry whereas Pantene Ice Shine and Nature's Gate Herbal both did (if you're familiar with either of those, for reference). Of course, each nose registers scent differently so I guess trying is the only way to know for sure ;)

vampyyri
December 20th, 2016, 03:00 PM
It smells like a sweet conditionery smell, it's a very potent lemme tell'ya but I like it cuz it lasts til the next wash and I only wash maybe once a week or later lol. The result on the hair tho is like silk, you can see my profile pic is after using this, it's nice.

Hmm... I may have to hunt it down and sniff it (because I do admire your hair and all :p). It does sound promising, it's just a matter of sniffability tolerance.


For what it's worth, I find the scent far *less* strong than my previous conditioner - this one doesn't blast my nose during use nor does it last on my hair once dry whereas Pantene Ice Shine and Nature's Gate Herbal both did (if you're familiar with either of those, for reference). Of course, each nose registers scent differently so I guess trying is the only way to know for sure ;)

Ohhh yeah, when I did try Pantene Ice Shine it definitely gave me a headache. I usually am that person wearing scented lotion, scented deodorant, and perfume and it still murdered my brain.

Wildcat Diva
December 20th, 2016, 06:07 PM
It's a good conditioner and it's for wavy hair, My hair always looks best after using that one.


Walmart had every other damn version of that brand EXCEPT "Perfectly Undone." What the heck. Where did you find it?

littlestarface
December 20th, 2016, 06:10 PM
Walmart had every other damn version of that brand EXCEPT "Perfectly Undone." What the heck. Where did you find it?

Oh crap I should've told you, they don't have it at walmart only target:rolleyes:

Dark40
December 20th, 2016, 06:12 PM
I don't blame the silicones either. Because, I use hair products with silicones in it all of the time. I use this product called, "SiliconeMix," and it helps to repair and prevent damage hairs. There are 2 types of products. One is called the, "SiliconeMix," and the other one is called, "SiliconeMix Bambu." The Bambu one not only helps to repair damage it is excellent for hair growth. But remember when you're using silicones or cones you should clarify your hair with a clarifying shampoo once a month. To get rid of the build up of silicones and cones.

Wildcat Diva
December 20th, 2016, 07:58 PM
Oh crap I should've told you, they don't have it at walmart only target:rolleyes:

Well you couldn't have known... but guess what. Since I have less access to target than Walmart I looked it up at Walmart dot com. I can have it shipped to store and free pickup. So I did that. Ha. Crazy.

littlestarface
December 20th, 2016, 08:16 PM
Well you couldn't have known... but guess what. Since I have less access to target than Walmart I looked it up at Walmart dot com. I can have it shipped to store and free pickup. So I did that. Ha. Crazy.

Very nice! But wth it's on the site but not in the store grr.

Wildcat Diva
December 20th, 2016, 08:45 PM
I have done that before when I want something and can't find it on the Wallyworld shelf.

Online... then ship free to store for pickup. Trust me I was wasting a lot of time trying to look for it on the shelf and looking at the twelve different versions of conditioner for the one brand. This was easier by lots.

desu
December 23rd, 2016, 01:07 PM
Try using a different oil sometime. Some people can't handle coconut oil and get dry (sometimes even crunchy) ends. Coconut oil holds in protein in the hair, and those with protein sensitivity can't deal with that.

I had no idea, thanks for the info! You people on this site are so wise. :P I've always struggled with dry ends and I think coconut oil has only helped me so far but maybe I should try to switch it up just to be safe. Do you have any good oil recommendations? Sorry for the late reply.

lapushka
December 23rd, 2016, 02:02 PM
I had no idea, thanks for the info! You people on this site are so wise. :P I've always struggled with dry ends and I think coconut oil has only helped me so far but maybe I should try to switch it up just to be safe. Do you have any good oil recommendations? Sorry for the late reply.

Oh that's fine!

I like sweet almond oil myself, and baby oil (you need very little of that). Only use baby oil on the very ends though, just 1/2 drops spread through palms and applied to the lengths is *more* than enough!

desu
December 23rd, 2016, 03:08 PM
Thanks for the suggestions lapushka. :)

lapushka
December 23rd, 2016, 03:44 PM
Thanks for the suggestions lapushka. :)

You're welcome. Any natural oil you have around the house will probably be fine, like olive oil or something like that (though that *can* be heavy for some). Happy experimenting. Keep us posted. :)